highaltitude.log.20100130

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[08:36] <MikeMc68> morning
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[08:38] <jcoxon> morning MikeMc68
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[08:39] Nick change: laurence_ -> Laurenceb
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[08:39] <Laurenceb> morning
[08:39] <jcoxon> hey Laurenceb
[08:40] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, steve added some stuff about the radio to the AH wiki
[08:40] <Laurenceb> cool
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[09:27] Action: Laurenceb has bulbs for airspeed sensor
[09:28] <Laurenceb> very hard to remove the glass
[09:31] <Laurenceb> http://des-parts.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=15&zenid=c42dcf2104414ad59cfade7c884a5933
[09:31] <Laurenceb> ^ those things
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[11:08] <Laurenceb> this is interesting
[11:08] <Laurenceb> I just burnt out a bulb filament running it in air
[11:08] <Laurenceb> burnt out pretty much instantly
[11:09] <Laurenceb> looks like "Grain of Rice" bulbs use tungsten filament from the change in resistance with temperature
[11:09] <SpeedEvil> essentially all bulbs do
[11:10] <Laurenceb> I think I damaged the filament removing the glass
[11:10] <Laurenceb> and that partly caused it to burn out really fast
[11:11] <Laurenceb> looks like its more a case of one end overheating where I damaged the connection to the legs
[11:11] <Laurenceb> I remved the top with pincers then used tweezers to peel off the glass sides on the second attempt
[11:12] <Laurenceb> seems to be fine
[11:13] <Laurenceb> these things are crazy small - one nice suprise is that the filament is all in the bottom half of the bulb
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> at nominal current it should burn out inmoments
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> sandpaper off the top
[11:13] <Laurenceb> I thought it would take a bit longer
[11:14] <Laurenceb> certainly at 700C or so it should last for ages
[11:14] <Laurenceb> thats the temperature I'll try running it at
[11:14] <SpeedEvil> for high current bulbs - maybe a few seconds
[11:15] <Laurenceb> I calculated 1150 filament temperature in normal operation - from the resistance change
[11:15] <Laurenceb> 1150C
[11:16] <Laurenceb> http://des-parts.co.uk/images/large/10-0202_L.JPG
[11:16] <SpeedEvil> is it a very dull orange?
[11:16] <Laurenceb> orange/yellow
[11:17] <Laurenceb> the filament is just between the two legs
[11:17] <Laurenceb> about 0.5mm long
[11:17] <SpeedEvil> ah
[11:17] <SpeedEvil> it's an indicator?
[11:17] <Laurenceb> which is neat as you can get the height down to <2mm
[11:17] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> efficiency -17lm/W :)
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> at that tiny scale, I'd be concerned about the smallest dust particle landing on the filliment affecting things
[11:19] <Laurenceb> Ive got a pop rivet with the center drilled out to 2mm
[11:19] <Laurenceb> going to epoxy it in the side
[11:22] <Laurenceb> then stick it in some styrofoam sheet
[11:22] <Laurenceb> overall size should be about 5x3x3mm
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> sounds not insane
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[11:38] <Laurenceb> http://gist.github.com/289467
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[11:41] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: I guess theres pollen and fine sandy dust around a lot in the open air
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> I used a 2.4V 0.5A bulb last time I did this - so somewhat larger :)
[11:42] <Laurenceb> suppose in the really worst case a mixture of sandy dust and carbonised pollen could form a strong coating
[11:42] <Laurenceb> that would gradually cause the senor calibration to become inaccurate
[11:43] <Laurenceb> I want to get the current down
[11:46] <Laurenceb> wow pop rivets are pretty cheap
[11:47] <Laurenceb> http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=23303&src=froogle
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[12:30] <jcoxon> hey sbasuita , just got the radio from the post depot - thanks!
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[12:55] <Marcis> hi!
[13:02] <jcoxon> hey Marcis
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[14:04] Action: jcoxon has acquired a very large polystyrene box
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: Can you run for hours without reaching a wall?
[14:05] <jcoxon> a ladybird could
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[16:46] <jcoxon> afternoon all
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[17:36] <MikeMc68> afternoon
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[17:54] <jcoxon> hey MikeMc68
[18:01] <MikeMc68> What's new James?
[18:02] <jcoxon> been polystyrene cutting
[18:02] <MikeMc68> made a hot cutter?
[18:03] <jcoxon> made a new one - bigger :-) but harder to make it accurate
[18:03] <MikeMc68> should make a 2 axis stepper motor driven one
[18:04] <jcoxon> you joke but i've made about 1/2 of one - but too little time
[18:04] <MikeMc68> i know the feeling
[18:05] <jcoxon> just trying to decide how much to secure in place now and how much of the internals needs to be accessible
[18:06] <MikeMc68> this is for teh transatlantic flight is it?
[18:06] <jcoxon> no this is ballasthalo 4
[18:06] <jcoxon> so floater to test ballast tanks but not trans-a
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[18:13] <MikeMc68> ahh i see
[18:18] <jcoxon> hows your payload?
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[18:21] Nick change: hsmith_ -> hsmith
[18:24] <MikeMc68> not a lot happening at the moment - little time
[18:24] <MikeMc68> i do bits here and there
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[20:33] <natrium42> \\o
[20:33] <Randomskk> o//
[20:34] <natrium42> //o
[20:34] <natrium42> sup?
[20:34] <Randomskk> waiting for new solder paste so I can try and put down paste on 0402 sized pads woo
[20:34] <natrium42> cool
[20:35] <natrium42> my solder paste expired in 2007, but i am still using it...
[20:35] <Randomskk> the old paste is over a year old and kind of gunky
[20:35] <Randomskk> it still works usually
[20:35] <natrium42> yeah
[20:35] <Randomskk> but it doesn't flow out of the tube very much, tends to curl up
[20:35] <Randomskk> normally not an issue
[20:35] <Randomskk> but when the pad is the same width as the tip of the nozzle
[20:35] <Randomskk> you really need it to just come out :P
[20:36] <Randomskk> thinking of just getting a stencil mad eup
[20:36] <Randomskk> made up*
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[20:36] <Randomskk> but there are already some design changes for the next revision so the stencil'd just be used a couple of times max
[20:37] <natrium42> what is this for?
[20:37] <Randomskk> brushless motor controller
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[20:38] <natrium42> where did you order the pcbs made?
[20:38] <natrium42> hi DanielRichman
[20:38] <natrium42> status please
[20:39] <Randomskk> seeed
[20:39] <DanielRichman> natrium42, araldite on the recently-bent- piece of brass for the folded dypole is drying
[20:39] <natrium42> rofl
[20:39] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: how's the whole thing looking?
[20:39] <DanielRichman> natrium42, it won't be the best yagi evar but it will be respectable, I hope
[20:39] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, bending the brass was harder than thought
[20:39] <natrium42> cool
[20:39] <DanielRichman> not as in physical-hard, but getting it to look nice.
[20:40] <Randomskk> it is a pain
[20:40] <Randomskk> I ended up snapping the brass
[20:40] <Randomskk> went with aluminium which worked an awful lot better for bending
[20:40] <Randomskk> but was orders of magnitude harder to solder
[20:40] <Randomskk> on the plus side it looks really good because now the whole yagi is made of the same material
[20:41] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, indeed. Hmm, I might just find a better way to solder the feeder to the driven element. Would have to buy a new plastic box though cause i've just araldited this one. Maybe I'll provide a photo to see what you think and can then decide if I want to do it again with aluminium (which I have plenty of spare)
[20:42] <Randomskk> if the brass is in shape and works, stick with it
[20:42] <DanielRichman> Alternativly I could grab another brass rod, take it to school and get the "God of the Workshop" to deal with it
[20:42] <Randomskk> the worst part of my entire antenna is easily the soldering-to-aluminium
[20:42] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, in shape: uh... it resembles a dipole
[20:42] <Randomskk> a bent dipole?
[20:42] <Randomskk> folded* even
[20:42] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, a folded one yes
[20:42] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, it sort of looks like one but the ends are not at all semi-circular
[20:42] <Randomskk> that's probably not a massive issue
[20:43] <Randomskk> depending on how not-at-all they are
[20:43] <Randomskk> theoretically even two 90-degree bends could work, a la a quad antenna, but it does change the effective length
[20:43] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, the ends are more pointy and the "intended" 10mm gap between the feedpoints is more like 5
[20:43] <Randomskk> do you have any way of measuring the SWR?
[20:44] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, there is a local ham group/club :P
[20:44] <DanielRichman> You think I should measure the SWR of the folded dipole on its own before sticking it onto the rest of the yagi (which, btw, is finished)?
[20:45] <Randomskk> I guess you could
[20:46] <DanielRichman> It does have a shiny white plastic box with a BNC connector fitted perfectly though. Shame the perfection there won't counter the imperfection of the dipole bends
[20:46] <Randomskk> bear in mind that the folding it changes the impedance quite significantly
[20:46] <Randomskk> like 4x
[20:46] <Randomskk> which counters the effect of the directors and reflector or something
[20:47] <DanielRichman> yeah, that's what the 1-4 balun is for
[20:47] <Randomskk> yea.
[20:47] <DanielRichman> I'll see how it goes; will update later. Right now: bbiab
[20:50] <jcoxon> BH4 pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/4317058348/in/set-72157623226106480/
[20:51] <ybit> anyone want to talk low altitude? :)
[20:51] <Randomskk> jcoxon: is that a repurposed sparkfun box I spy? :P
[20:51] <jcoxon> yup
[20:51] <natrium42> haha, cool
[20:52] <jcoxon> it makes a really good tray
[20:52] <Randomskk> they are great
[20:52] <Randomskk> I've used them for cases in the past and someone recently used one as a case for their buspirate
[20:52] <jcoxon> oh yeah i saw that
[20:53] <jcoxon> making slow progress
[20:53] <jcoxon> and also watching Twister on ITV2+1
[20:54] <jcoxon> natrium42, radio sent
[20:54] <natrium42> excellent, thanks
[20:54] <jcoxon> though they didnt' ask what was in it so customs might get upset - i'm not sure
[20:54] <jcoxon> its so tiny though
[20:56] <natrium42> it's ok
[20:56] <natrium42> never had problems with customs
[20:57] <natrium42> bbl, cake
[20:57] <jcoxon> the cake is a lie
[21:21] <natrium42> back
[21:21] <natrium42> no, my sister made it
[21:21] <jcoxon> hehe
[21:22] <natrium42> ok, to disassemble my camera
[21:22] <natrium42> going to try sharing microsd between flight computer and camera
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[21:27] <jcoxon> ooo that'll be interesting
[21:28] <jcoxon> how you going to pull that off - complete switching between the 2?
[21:28] <natrium42> yeah
[21:28] <natrium42> take picture, switch of camera, power-cycle microsd and use it with micro
[21:29] <natrium42> just need to find a microsd that works with SPI protocol...
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> I thought it was I2C - not spi
[21:29] <natrium42> i found an 8GB card, but my camera doesn't support it...
[21:30] <natrium42> well, SD specifies a couple of interfaces
[21:30] <natrium42> there is an I2C like too afaik
[21:30] <natrium42> but SPI is faster
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[21:31] <SpeedEvil> pictbridge is lots more complex
[21:31] <natrium42> usb host and micro is eww
[21:32] <natrium42> or can the camera become a host?
[21:32] <natrium42> might be interesting to try then
[21:33] <SpeedEvil> no - pictbridge is a device protocol
[21:33] <SpeedEvil> AIUI
[21:36] <natrium42> so you're saying it only goes through usb lines?
[21:36] <DanielRichman> natrium42, sharing the sd card is going to chew more battery than it's worth (canera power cycling), and it will mean that your micro has to deal with FAT rather than just writing RAW - why bother?
[21:36] <natrium42> i am already using FAT
[21:36] <DanielRichman> but still - can't be good for the camera batteries?
[21:37] <natrium42> i use external batteries
[21:37] <natrium42> and a dc/dc converter
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: it's a USB protocol.
[21:37] <DanielRichman> natrium42, fair enough
[21:38] <DanielRichman> natrium42, does your camera have a lens that extends/retracts every time you power cycle?
[21:38] <natrium42> yes
[21:39] <DanielRichman> natrium42, how often are you going to be powering down to write to the microsd?
[21:39] <natrium42> well, technically i could just trigger the SD door switch
[21:39] <DanielRichman> does the camera sync to disk completely after taking a photo then/
[21:40] <natrium42> yes, of course
[21:40] <natrium42> it does it as quickly as possible
[21:40] <DanielRichman> including updating of- does fat have a superblock?
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> no.
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> actually - dunno on fat32
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> it has a FAT - which is a big allocation map
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> and each file has a starting point in that map in the file inode
[21:41] <DanielRichman> ah so it goes (relativly) easy on the flash leveling?
[21:41] <natrium42> i probably don't even have to turn the camera off anyway
[21:42] <DanielRichman> just wondering what bad-effects constantly disconnecting the sd would have
[21:42] <natrium42> if i reinitialize sd card back to original state when i am done with it...
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> Or alternatively if you're fast enough - snoop the bus
[21:43] <natrium42> :)
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[21:43] <natrium42> actually i need to be slow
[21:43] <natrium42> as it's going to send it at 2200 baud to satellite
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> 2200 bps?
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> how small an image can the cam take?
[21:46] <natrium42> i expect to spend 10 minutes to send an image
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> 1024*768 highly compressed will about do that I guess
[21:56] <natrium42> it will still be 100x better than those crappy jpeg camera modules
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[21:57] <natrium42> might be able to go to 9600 baud with the xtend radio module
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[23:52] <Laurenceb> hello
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> h
[23:53] <Laurenceb> I've assembled an airspeed sensor
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> :)
[23:53] <Laurenceb> used a bulb held in a drill chuck then a little file in the end
[23:54] <Laurenceb> gave good results, but its very fiddly to expoy it in place
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> works
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> sandpaper also
[23:54] <Laurenceb> it ended up a little messy on the outside, but I guess thats not important
[23:55] <SpeedEvil> tried it?
[23:55] <Laurenceb> havent built the opamp bit yet
[23:56] <Laurenceb> tried one and burnt it out, but I used that to calculate the diameter of the wire
[23:56] <Laurenceb> http://www.fusion.ucla.edu/apex/meeting5/1ghoniem1198.pdf
[23:56] <Laurenceb> using the data from there
[23:56] <Laurenceb> looks like I need to run at <500C to get a few months continuous operation out of it
[23:57] <Laurenceb> the wire is approx 2um diameter
[23:57] <SpeedEvil> teeny wire is teeny!
[23:58] <Laurenceb> that increases the sensitivity to air temperature, but I guess for normal MAV operating conditions the effect is small
[23:58] <Laurenceb> -5C to 35C or so
[23:58] <SpeedEvil> especially if you have a temp thingy in tehre
[23:58] <Laurenceb> good news is the current consumption goes down to 5ma or so
[23:59] <Laurenceb> yeah ideally glued onto the side
[23:59] <Laurenceb> but +-3% or so error is ok
[23:59] <SpeedEvil> what's the response? ~1s?
[00:00] --- Sun Jan 31 2010