highaltitude.log.20100112

[00:00] <Laurenceb> 8 adc channels on smd atmega, annoying the I2C is on two of the pins
[00:00] <SpeedEvil> what output span do the gyros end up at?
[00:00] <Laurenceb> could use an ST I2C gyro for yaw, or perhaps tie the vrefs together on two gyros
[00:00] <Laurenceb> +-300 degrees/sec
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> I mean - do they saturate the ADC
[00:01] <Laurenceb> I might fire off an email to ST to ask if you can tie two vref outputs
[00:01] <Laurenceb> yes, use the 1.1v internal reference
[00:01] <Laurenceb> then a resistor divider
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> 8 bit adc?
[00:01] <Laurenceb> so the 0 to 2.46v output scales to 0 to .1v
[00:01] <Laurenceb> 10 bit
[00:02] <Laurenceb> *1.1v
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[00:02] <SpeedEvil> I have real doubts that you'll see that good a noise perfdomance with resistors only
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> but...
[00:12] <Laurenceb> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=497-8817-ND
[00:12] <Laurenceb> thats got I2C and SPI
[00:39] <natrium42> "so will that work with my arduino?"
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[00:39] <natrium42> it's the same gyro as on my sparkfun IMU
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[06:37] <juxta> hi all
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[10:50] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: solution to that ADC issue - use the gyro vref output as adcref on the uC
[10:50] <Laurenceb> and put a pot divider to halve the voltages on the rate outputs
[10:55] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[10:55] <SpeedEvil> makes sense
[10:56] <Laurenceb> now to see if I can get samples of the ST three axis gyro
[11:18] <Laurenceb> http://uk.farnell.com/texas-instruments/cc1020-rtb1/rf-transceiver-smd-qfn-32-1020/dp/1248482
[11:18] <Laurenceb> not a bad price at all
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> indeed not
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[11:41] <Laurenceb> and theres a Ti/chipcon library for eagle with the cc1020 in it XD
[11:42] <Laurenceb> guess I'd better do the pcb design :P
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[12:26] <Laurenceb_> http://store.diydrones.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=KT-ArduIMU-20
[12:27] <Laurenceb_> _almost_ what I was thinking of
[12:35] <Laurenceb_> an emo meter - for measuring emoness
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[17:03] <jcoxon> evening all
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[17:07] <jcoxon> its gone very quiet on this channel recently
[17:07] <jcoxon> :-p
[17:13] <russss> hello
[17:14] <jcoxon> hey russss
[17:14] <jcoxon> just reading about hte phoenix landing
[17:14] <jcoxon> lander* - how amazing would it be if it actually survived
[17:16] <russss> I like the way NASA develop these things for a really small lifetime and then try and squeeze as much life as possible out of them
[17:18] <jcoxon> they are clever there - like the plan to dig Spirit into the sand to tilt it to get more power
[17:18] <russss> I wonder what percentage of their operating budget is going into things which are beyond their lifespan
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> shuttle is a huge hog.
[17:21] <jcoxon> i personally love the shuttle
[17:21] <russss> it's a great piece of engineering founded on a severely flawed premise
[17:22] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[17:22] <SpeedEvil> The shuttle - in its present form exists due to one constraint.
[17:23] <SpeedEvil> To be able to launch a heavy recon satellite on a polar orbit, and to land back at the takeoff base.
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> Which is so barkingly mad as an operational requirement for normal operations that it's caused huge penalties in most areas of operation.
[17:25] <jcoxon> its still cool
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> I'm not saying it's not cool.
[17:25] <jcoxon> and the UK just doesn't have anything to match it
[17:25] <jcoxon> no wonder no one is inspired :-)
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> It's just so enormously expensive that it's set utterly the wrong tone.
[17:25] <jcoxon> true
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> And it's the epitomie of the ICBM eras influence on the space program.
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> Weight is bad at all costs (as it impacts on how easily you can move ICBMs) - cost is not really a factor, ...
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> The shuttles fuel costs - for the liquids are well under a million dollars.
[17:27] <russss> well still pretty much everything going into space is ICBM-influenced
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> Up the fuel use by 2-3 times, and lose the wings, and it gots lots cheaper.
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> yes - however the russians do it rather differently.
[17:27] <russss> it's really only the new commercial craft which aren't just an ICBM with some people stuck to the front.
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> Capsules are very simple and work, and the margins are large.
[17:28] <SpeedEvil> Yes, the astronauts may have to wait a few hours for rescue, and it's inappropriate for passenger ops.
[17:28] <SpeedEvil> regularly scheduled passenger ops.
[17:28] <SpeedEvil> but - we're so far from that point...
[17:29] <russss> nobody has any solutions for regular passenger ops to orbit
[17:29] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[17:29] <russss> IMO the problem isn't getting up there, it's slowing down.
[17:29] <SpeedEvil> But for example - nobody testing MOOSE variants is broken.
[17:30] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOOSE
[17:30] <SpeedEvil> an emergency personal deorbit solution.
[17:30] <russss> even a space elevator doesn't solve the slowing down problem
[17:30] <russss> oh yeah
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> Stuff that is cheap - and will save you most of the time.
[17:31] <russss> that thing would be a hell of a ride
[17:31] <russss> I wonder what the deceleration would be
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> But who would want to build a MOOSE - when it costs - maybe - $100k each and there is a market of 100.
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> If you can get funding for a system costing $100m each and there is a market for 10.
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> and you don't even need to get a working system to get most of the money often.
[17:34] <russss> "In a final test the test pilot jumped six meters from a bridge in Massachusetts and successfully survived water impact and floated downstream (a competitor claimed there was a little bit of a difference between 6 m and 500 km)."
[17:36] <jcoxon> hehe, its pretty fair - 6m and 500km
[17:38] <jcoxon> for deorbiting - X-38 is amazing
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[18:11] <SpeedEvil> Overkill though.
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> Sure - a medical emergency may mean that someone dies if a capsule lands in a bad place.
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> so what?
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> Why are they more valuable than deep sea fishermen
[18:13] <jcoxon> one big parafoil!
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[19:06] <Randomskk> hmm
[19:06] <Randomskk> noisebridge are thinking of a skyhook to recover the balloon
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[21:36] <Laurenceb_> hello
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[21:36] <SpeedEvil> Hello!
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[21:40] <jcoxon> evening all
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> http://vimeo.com/6660421
[21:40] <jcoxon> hey Laurenceb_
[21:41] <Laurenceb_> hi jcoxon: I'll email that nasa guy about the code
[21:41] <Laurenceb_> IMO the best plan would be to try and copy existing stuff sim code wise
[21:41] <Laurenceb_> then we can concentrate on the float code
[21:41] <jcoxon> oh yes
[21:41] <jcoxon> get to it!
[21:41] <jcoxon> :-)
[21:42] <jcoxon> cool artificial horizon
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> do you have the board natrium42 made?
[21:44] <jcoxon> yes i do - 2 but not soldered up and i can't do smd
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> atmega2561 or whatever it was
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> I'd be willing to solder it up
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> but its a bit of a pain to have to post it back and forth
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> maybe we need a construction meetup
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> to be honest if we go for something fairly basic then its not a lot of work
[21:45] <jcoxon> well i was thinking we would use natrium's board he already has made up
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> we have the envelope and the transmitter is done?
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> ok cool
[21:45] <jcoxon> http://spacenear.us/wiki/doku.php?id=flightcomputer:specs
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> the PIC powered one?
[21:45] <jcoxon> yeah he has flight tested
[21:45] <jcoxon> it
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> oh yeah I remember
[21:45] <jcoxon> ping natrium42
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> received in germany :P
[21:46] <jcoxon> Laurenceb_, yeah lets go over it
[21:46] <jcoxon> so we have 3 envelopes
[21:46] <jcoxon> flight computer
[21:46] <jcoxon> 1 HF Radio TX (with perhaps RX support as well)
[21:46] <jcoxon> all thats needed now is to finish ballast tank, pump and sensor
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> yeah - IMO just a magnet and hall sensor
[21:47] <Laurenceb_> - digital output hall
[21:47] <jcoxon> not photogate as i've already done :-p
[21:47] <Laurenceb_> so there is a venus on that flight computer board?
[21:47] <jcoxon> i think its on a seperate board
[21:47] <Laurenceb_> well I thought it was simpler
[21:47] <jcoxon> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/4238045532/in/set-72157621083447545/
[21:47] <Laurenceb_> but if youve done photogate already...
[21:48] <jcoxon> i've 'prototyped' it
[21:48] <Laurenceb_> to be honest thats a bit ... bodgey
[21:48] <Laurenceb_> ok proto
[21:48] <jcoxon> need to make a proper disc and firmly secure the shaft
[21:48] <Laurenceb_> how is the shaft fixed on?
[21:48] <jcoxon> the pump has a hole
[21:48] <jcoxon> so will be araldited on methinks
[21:48] <Laurenceb_> ah ok
[21:48] <Laurenceb_> so we could fix in a shaft with a magnet on
[21:49] <Laurenceb_> how thick is that plastic case on the pump?
[21:49] <Laurenceb_> could we drill and tap some small holes to mount a pcb onto it?
[21:49] <jcoxon> i have 2 pumps now
[21:50] <jcoxon> big and small
[21:50] <jcoxon> thats the small one
[21:50] <Laurenceb_> ok
[21:50] <jcoxon> its pretty well encased but we can easily use the mounting board its attached to
[21:50] <Laurenceb_> are those two things on the right machine screws?
[21:51] <jcoxon> they are philips scews that extend through
[21:51] <jcoxon> and scew in to the mounting board
[21:51] <jcoxon> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/4237269881/in/set-72157621083447545/
[21:52] <Laurenceb_> I see
[21:52] <Laurenceb_> so we can get some longer replacements and use them to mount a bit of pcb
[21:52] <jcoxon> yes i guess so
[21:52] <jcoxon> whats on the pcb?
[21:52] <Laurenceb_> with the logic output hall sensor on
[21:53] <jcoxon> oh i see
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> just to hold it reliably
[21:53] <jcoxon> then a shaft with a magnet?
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> then a neodium magnet on the shaft yeah
[21:53] <jcoxon> you see i'm more in favour of the photogate plan
[21:54] <jcoxon> i actually think its easier and could be positioned as reliably
[21:54] <Laurenceb_> ok suppose so
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> you could use the same mounting idea
[21:55] <jcoxon> yeah thats what i was thinking
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> so I think ballast is more or less sorted
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> one thing - we need the right tube
[21:55] <jcoxon> i've got all the parts so will build it this weekend (i've got hte weekend free for a build weekend)
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> so its flexible at low temperature
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> does the computer board have venus gps then?
[21:56] <jcoxon> http://www.williamson-shop.co.uk/30mm-silicone-tubing-661-p.asp
[21:56] <jcoxon> silicone can withstand low temps last time i researched it
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> thats fine then
[21:59] <Laurenceb_> so flight computer + ballast setup + rocketboy radio + what else is needed?
[21:59] <jcoxon> listening system
[21:59] <jcoxon> heating
[21:59] <jcoxon> and payload box
[22:00] <jcoxon> and permission
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> listening.. I guess so
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> I'd want to go minimalist
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> so we lose less
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> bbl, cooking
[22:03] <jcoxon> okay
[22:05] <jcoxon> well teh TX can do 3 modes so i suggest we use all of them
[22:06] <jcoxon> say 2x CW string, 2x RTTY and then 2x MFSK then sleep and repeat
[22:09] <Laurenceb_> sure
[22:09] <Laurenceb_> we need to think about batteries and heating
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> it may be the case that we dont need any internal heating
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> ideally keep the enclosure as small as possible, then thick blue foam as the casing
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> any idea on the power consumption for the Tx? its 12v isnt it?
[22:12] <jcoxon> yeah it'll be 12v
[22:13] <jcoxon> it'll generate quite a bit of heat
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> that may be enough - blue foam is a good insulator
[22:13] <jcoxon> yeah, though as we are launcing in the US we need to be careful about density - tis one of the rules
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> any idea about the power cunsumption?
[22:13] <jcoxon> nope
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> oh yeah
[22:13] <jcoxon> need to ask steve
[22:14] <Laurenceb_> didnt he do a writeup on the wiki or somwething?
[22:14] <jcoxon> http://spacenear.us/wiki/doku.php?id=power:batteries
[22:14] Action: Laurenceb_ maybe remembers something
[22:14] <Laurenceb_> bbl
[22:14] <jcoxon> i thought so but can't find it
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[22:15] <Laurenceb_> hmm its probably going to be a few hundered ma
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> we're going to need a lot of batteries :-/
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> guess they are light
[22:16] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:16] <jcoxon> we are getting there...
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> guess we can call effeciency 25% or so
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> then think about duty cycling it
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> then look at the heating, payload size, battery weight etc
[22:17] <jcoxon> i'm still not sure about heating
[22:18] <jcoxon> i sort of think it would be useful and not too dificult
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[22:34] <jcoxon> night all
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[22:59] <Laurenceb_> jcoxon
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> ooh hes gone
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[23:11] <Laurenceb_> http://store.stackfoundry.com/dev-tools/xmega/megavore.html
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[23:15] <Laurenceb_> this is nice as well http://store.stackfoundry.com/review/product/list/id/5/category/10/
[23:20] <Laurenceb_> IIRC the IDE works with wine
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[00:00] --- Wed Jan 13 2010