highaltitude.log.20091227

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[00:41] <Laurenceb> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=218
[00:41] <Laurenceb> interesting stuff
[00:48] <n900evil> yeah , not at all local tho.
[00:49] <n900evil> hmm browser gets slow with more than 10 windows open.
[00:53] <Laurenceb> heh
[00:53] <Laurenceb> I was looking at a vacuum heater tube /thermal store based heating system
[00:53] <n900evil> Swap alg needs polished for flash
[00:54] <n900evil> I wanted to augment that with heat pump
[00:54] <Laurenceb> looks like it works, but you need a whole floor of water
[00:54] <Laurenceb> basically
[00:54] <n900evil> on the top for hot water
[00:55] <n900evil> and on the bottom for ground source
[00:55] <n900evil> yeah
[00:55] <n900evil> or insulation
[00:55] <n900evil> and once at that point, superinsulation is cheaper.
[00:55] <Laurenceb> but only 60 tubes if you have U value of 0.1 and 20% glazing on the walls with those specs
[00:56] <Laurenceb> well this is kind of superinsulated, but it still needs up to 2Kw in the middle of winter
[00:56] <n900evil> are you neglecting solar gain and human generated heat?
[00:58] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:58] <Laurenceb> 20C internal temperature, 7x7x5m high house
[00:58] <Laurenceb> it pays for the tubes in 4 years - compared to using gas to heat the same house
[00:59] <Laurenceb> heat pumps dont seem to be much cheaper than gas
[00:59] <n900evil> 100w for a human, another 100 for refrigeration, ...
[00:59] <Laurenceb> maybe 15% cheaper if you are lucky
[00:59] <Laurenceb> yeah
[01:00] <n900evil> they are if you use them on night ratetarrifs.
[01:01] <n900evil> I've pondered askking my elec co to imstall new meter 'for my tenant' on dual rate meter, and running heat pump to storel from it.
[01:02] <Laurenceb> anyway I've gtg, cya
[01:03] <n900evil> wave
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[09:59] <rjharrison_> Hi all
[09:59] <rjharrison_> Any news on potential launches?
[10:00] <rjharrison_> sbasuita, surely you guys must be nearly ready!
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[10:48] <Laurenceb> morning
[10:48] <Laurenceb> n900evil: ideal insulation material - ~1mm thick SF6 filled bubble wrap with layers of mylar
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[11:41] <jonsowman> morning alll
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[12:01] <Laurenceb> or this - http://www.va-q-tec.com/va-q-plus_b_en,19393.html
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[14:47] <jcoxon> afternoon all
[14:50] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: hi
[14:50] <jcoxon> hey gordonjcp
[14:51] <jcoxon> good christmas?
[14:53] <gordonjcp> yeah pretty good
[14:53] <gordonjcp> you?
[14:54] <jcoxon> yeah, quiet - slightly glad its over
[14:57] <jcoxon> bbiab
[14:59] <gordonjcp> yeah
[14:59] <gordonjcp> we had a couple of friends over - good to see them but I'm glad I've got my house back
[15:11] <jcoxon> yeah, know the feeling
[15:11] <jcoxon> am at my parents - looking forward to escaping
[15:12] <jcoxon> :-)
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[17:05] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[17:05] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[17:06] <jcoxon> good christmas?
[17:09] <edmoore> ep, v good, just got back from somerset
[17:09] <edmoore> you?
[17:10] <jcoxon> yes thanks
[17:11] <jcoxon> just revising some of the code for BH4
[17:13] <jcoxon> wow i can get GB3EA from my room at home
[17:14] <jcoxon> that repeater has an impressive range
[17:20] <jcoxon> even covers cambrdige
[17:22] <edmoore> would try it if I was up there
[17:22] <edmoore> am watching croc dundee 2
[17:23] <jcoxon> hehe , i suspect i'll be back in london by the time you are in cam
[17:24] <jcoxon> though would be a good repeater to use for suffolk chases
[17:25] <edmoore> am back on 6th
[17:25] <edmoore> agreed
[17:25] <edmoore> repeaters are a nice way to co-ordinate these things
[17:25] <jcoxon> http://www.ukrepeater.net/repeaters/gb3ea.htm
[17:26] <jcoxon> i'm on placement from 4th
[17:26] <jcoxon> down in kent
[17:27] <edmoore> PI is a good repeater too
[17:27] <edmoore> not heavily used
[17:28] <jcoxon> yeah, i spent sometime programing them into my radios memory
[17:32] <jcoxon> hopefully when i get back to london all my orders will have arrived :-p
[17:34] <jcoxon> right bbl
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[17:50] <rjharrison_> hey#
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[18:38] <Laurenceb> n900evil: http://www.dvfuels.co.uk/product.asp?pid=24 <- for a thermal store
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[18:42] <SpeedEvil> I was more thinking of just big bags of gravel
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> those work too
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> also IBCs
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> 1m^3
[18:44] <Randomskk> :o at 26c3
[18:45] <Randomskk> mikrokopter and also uav-p(not quite right) are here and flying quads, what fun
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> :)
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> It's been what - 12 years since a protoype micro heli has lead to helicopters being in every kids stocking.
[18:47] <Laurenceb> IBC ?
[18:47] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: awsome, bet the flight was expensive :-/
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> International Bulk Container
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> oh
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dvfuels.co.uk/category.asp?catID=3
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> they do them too
[18:49] <Laurenceb> very expensive
[18:49] <Laurenceb> you need about 75m^3 total
[18:50] <Laurenceb> with barrels you could get it down to £4K for the entire system
[18:55] <Laurenceb> if you stack the barrels right its pretty compact, then you can circulate air between them and up into the house
[18:56] <Randomskk> flight wasn't too bad
[18:56] <Laurenceb> build the house ontop of the barrels, and they also act as foundations
[18:56] <Randomskk> hostel and ccc tickets are more expensive
[18:56] <Laurenceb> any free food?
[18:57] <Randomskk> on the flight or here?
[18:57] <Randomskk> none here as far as I can ascertain
[18:57] <Randomskk> plenty to pay for though
[18:58] <Randomskk> regretting not bringing more seriously long cat5 cables
[18:58] <Randomskk> the wifi here is so saturated that no one can connect
[19:04] <Laurenceb> bah no food no good
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[19:09] <Hiena> Well, yet another success. We set up a new paparazzi system for the university.
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[19:16] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:16] <jcoxon> wow 40 people on a quiet day
[19:23] <Hiena> Everybody fixing something. ;)
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[19:24] <SpeedEvil> I am currently trying to fix my electric blanket - sewing loops on so it doesn't wrinkle - and my electric hot water heater. I think the element has blown - I'm looking for another one.
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> Continuing the heater theme, I need to dismantle my kettle and augment the seal, which is leaking.
[19:24] <jcoxon> i'm watching Bones Season 2
[19:25] <Hiena> Ehem. Not to mention, i'm wiring two 750W heater for a vacuform table.
[19:26] <Hiena> Got six 12 cm fan, so i hopes it vill be enough to make a serious plastic melting.
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[20:03] Action: Laurenceb wonders if you could build a house completely out of 200L barrels
[20:04] <Hiena> Laurenceb, i had better idea. House made from papcrete formed with 200L barrels.
[20:07] <Laurenceb> maybe, but water has large heat capacity, thats the point
[20:07] <Laurenceb> then you heat it with vacuum tube collectors
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[20:33] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: http://www.sundasolar.com/images/test%20report/SEIDO2-16_SOLAR%20KEYMARK%20Test%20report.pdf is useful
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> Interesting.
[20:47] <Laurenceb> I got the heat loss equation wrong in my model
[20:47] <Laurenceb> page 11 you divide by the solar flux
[20:47] <Laurenceb> that results in a crazy performance improvement
[20:48] <SpeedEvil> :)
[20:50] <Laurenceb> you can increase the thermal store temperature to 65C and go down to 150 drums
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> This is storing for how long?
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> But then 150 drums of volume of insulation as an alternative.
[20:52] <Laurenceb> for the year
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> ah
[20:52] <Laurenceb> well a bit less than 6 months
[20:53] <Laurenceb> more even
[20:53] <Laurenceb> solar peaks in July time, cold weather in january/feb
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> Somewhat less
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> As you can boost to temp in the beginning-middle of the year, then just top off for a couple of months after july
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> I suppose it's gonna be quite close to 6 months whatever you do though.
[21:00] <Laurenceb> oh duh I had the same equation
[21:00] <Laurenceb> oh well it works
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> I think one of the graphs indirectly shows the output vs temp.
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[21:04] <SpeedEvil> The insulation needed for a seasonal store is also very signigicant.
[21:05] <Laurenceb> if its under your house that helps
[21:05] <Laurenceb> you can think of it in terms of extra wall area
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[21:06] <Laurenceb> its not that bad - no windows
[21:06] <Laurenceb> 150mm foam is fine
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> But then - if you're considering it that way, ytou really need to run the numbers for excavation, and simply insulating double, and using the volume you save by not having the thermal store for insulation and extra habitable volume.
[21:07] <Laurenceb> that test data is for a direct flow module - is a fair bit better than heat pipe ones
[21:07] <Laurenceb> yeah but you can use the drums as a foundation
[21:07] <Laurenceb> and only half bury them
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> Alas no.
[21:08] <Laurenceb> - stacked two drums high, bottom ones are below ground level
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> EArth really sucks quite badly as insulation.
[21:08] <Laurenceb> sure, on insulation
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> Unless you have a stupidly large structure.
[21:08] <edmoore> we need #construction just for you two
[21:09] <Laurenceb> dig out, level with sand, DPM, insulation, drums, floor on top
[21:09] <Laurenceb> :p
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[21:09] <SpeedEvil> Also - on 'the best insulation' - I did some sketches for MLI panels.
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> Aluminium foil lined plywood vacuum vessels, structurally supported by oak teeny pillars, with MLI in the middle.
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> The numbers work quite well.
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> And you get easily triple the performance of 'normal' insulation in a much thinner panel.
[21:10] <Laurenceb> yeah I was looking at that
[21:11] <Laurenceb> PP honeycomb works best
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> But - you need continuous pumping really.
[21:11] <Laurenceb> you can easily get two orders of magnitude better than foam
[21:11] <Laurenceb> http://www.glacierbay.com/vacpanelinfo.asp
[21:12] <Laurenceb> Glacier Bay's BARRIER Ultra-Rtm is the first commercially available superinsulation panel to utilize a carbon/silica aerogel core
[21:12] <SpeedEvil> I was meaning relatively simple construction ones.
[21:12] <Laurenceb> useful for aerospace stuff as well I bet
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> As in something you might consider your average window company making forex.
[21:15] <Laurenceb> yeah
[21:15] <Laurenceb> theres quite a few places selling the lower tech vacuum panels
[21:18] <Laurenceb> even straight from china http://goot.en.alibaba.com/product/50637202-50138604/Vacuum_Insulation_Panels_VIP_.html
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> Interesting.
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> This was several years ago I did the numbers - and I couldn't find any
[21:25] <Laurenceb> http://www.glacierbay.com/ultra-r.asp
[21:25] <Laurenceb> looks like mylar - aerogel
[21:28] <Laurenceb> $595 for 60''x70''
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> Not bad for freezers and such.
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> Where you lose a hell of a lot of volume getting a sane level of insulation.
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> But a bit spendy for domestic.
[21:39] <Laurenceb> just slightly
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[21:53] <SpeedEvil> Though yes and no. On small properties, you might just recover it in higher habitable volume.
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[23:08] <Laurenceb> for about a third the price you can get the PU open cell based panel
[23:08] <Laurenceb> which is only about 30% worse
[23:09] <Laurenceb> - PU open cell vacuum panel
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> yeah - once youget to a low enough vacuum - i's all about the opacity distance
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> rather than the sealed bubbles.
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[23:15] <SpeedEvil> obvious worry with vacuum panels from china - if they leak in a couple of years, will the manufacturer do more than say 'we sell you new ones, 10% discount!'
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[23:37] <ybit> what are bone out wings?
[23:38] <ybit> oh, hah, completely unrelated
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[23:43] <Laurenceb> #turkey_preperation ?
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> Exoskeletal biologic design?
[00:00] --- Mon Dec 28 2009