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[09:43] <juxta_> hi all
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[15:50] <MikeMc> afternoon
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[16:17] <Randomskk> huh, neat. apparently Predator video feeds are unencrypted, anyone with an antenna and radio can pick up and decode their stream
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[18:01] <jcoxon> evening all
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[18:15] <edmoore> evening all
[18:15] <edmoore> jcoxon, how's it going?
[18:17] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[18:17] <jcoxon> not bad thanks
[18:17] <jcoxon> long day
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[18:17] <jcoxon> trying to make graphs of the data
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[19:41] <Hiena> Ehhh, anybody has experience with a Contact Chemie Positive 20 photoresitive varnish?
[19:42] <Hiena> It's new for me this and i'm kind of confused with the exposure times.
[19:44] <Hiena> Tha manual says 3-6min UV-C light, the forums says 30 minutes. I gave it 3 minutes, but there is no color change on the varnish.
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[19:51] <SpeedEvil> do a test
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> take a 1*10cm strip of pcb
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> coat
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> expose 1cm, pull back mask 1cm more, expose again, repeat till no more pcb
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> that gives you 3-30min in 3 min intervals
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> then develop, and check
[19:53] <Randomskk> I'd go for "about 5 minutes ish"
[19:53] <Randomskk> always worked for me
[19:53] <SpeedEvil> depends on the light
[19:53] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil's suggestion is even better though more labour intensive
[19:53] <Randomskk> it does
[19:53] <Randomskk> and that's probably the difference between the 3 minutes from the manufacturer and the 30 from the forums
[19:53] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[19:54] <Hiena> Well, i'll check after 20 min, and try to etch it.
[19:55] <Hiena> I use a new rig and a new varnish, so anything possible.
[19:56] <Hiena> Untill i'll draw the modell for the vacuum formed flying wing.
[19:57] <Hiena> BRB, installing new videocard driver
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[19:59] <jcoxon> Randomskk, do you have any fldigi logs from the flight?
[20:00] <Randomskk> should do
[20:00] <Randomskk> besides what was posted to the tracker?
[20:01] <jcoxon> well i'm fixing data at the moment e.g. obvious single char errors
[20:01] <jcoxon> then running it back through the checksum
[20:06] <Randomskk> emailed
[20:07] <jcoxon> thanks
[20:08] <jcoxon> i've added in all of G8KHW 's data when he lost 3g connection
[20:08] <jcoxon> filled in a large gap
[20:08] <Randomskk> think I had some predating that but apparently fldigi clears its log every time it opens
[20:10] <jcoxon> thanks
[20:10] <jcoxon> hmmm thats odd
[20:11] <jcoxon> usually it time stamps you opening and closing hte log file
[20:11] <jcoxon> there is a little button to check on the File Menu i think
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[20:11] <Randomskk> that file was in "talk" not "logs"
[20:11] <Randomskk> "logs" is empty
[20:13] <Hiena> Well, looks like it's an invisible type varnish. After 20 minutes the most of it came of during the development.
[20:13] <Hiena> So recoated the PCB and have to wait another 24 hour for the drying...
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[21:53] <natrium42> hi geeks xor nerds
[21:55] <jcoxon> was the 'xor' intentional?
[21:55] <natrium42> yes :)
[21:55] <natrium42> jcoxon, what sparkfun transmitter was bill brown using again?
[21:56] <jcoxon> i think the really rubbish one
[21:56] <jcoxon> e.g. http://hiwaay.net/~bbrown/projects.htm
[21:56] <natrium42> hrm
[21:57] <natrium42> which one should i use?
[21:57] <jcoxon> for what?
[21:57] <jcoxon> the radiometrix ntx2 is superior to all of them imo
[21:57] <natrium42> it would be perfect if it didn't drift with temperature
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> oven.
[21:58] <jcoxon> if its well insulated it doesn't drift
[21:58] <jcoxon> e.g. one of the badger flights
[21:58] <natrium42> well, maybe there is a module with temperature compensated digital oscillator
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> has anyone dismantled the ntc2, and found where it's getting its reference?
[21:58] <jcoxon> best speak to RocketBoy
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> actually
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> that's quite pointless - type approval and shizzle
[21:59] <natrium42> fo shizzle
[21:59] <jcoxon> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/missions:ballasthalo:ballasthalo3#data
[22:00] <jcoxon> spent ages filling in the data gaps
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> whats happening witht he payload?
[22:00] <natrium42> jcoxon, ooh neat
[22:00] <natrium42> jcoxon, so what do you think about ballast sensor?
[22:01] <jcoxon> it isn't good enough
[22:01] <jcoxon> got a new plan...
[22:01] <jcoxon> we don't need one
[22:01] <natrium42> hrm
[22:01] <jcoxon> instead we use the pump
[22:01] <natrium42> flow rate monitor?
[22:01] <jcoxon> count the revs
[22:01] <jcoxon> they are designed to pump a certain volume per rev
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[22:04] <natrium42> ah
[22:04] <natrium42> that should work
[22:04] <SpeedEvil> peristaltic?
[22:05] <natrium42> what about a couple of hall effect sensors and a float with a magnet?
[22:05] <RocketBoy> Speedevil
[22:05] <jcoxon> natrium42, not very accurate though
[22:05] <jcoxon> my plan is to strip board up ballasthalo 4 and fly asap
[22:06] <RocketBoy> SpeedEvil: the NTX2 frequency reference is a crystal (actually soldered on the back of the board)
[22:06] <Randomskk> hopefully with an equally southern flight path, that makes tracking it super easy from here :P
[22:06] <Randomskk> stick the whip out the window and I'm sweet for a hundred kilometers in all directions
[22:07] <RocketBoy> I suspect the main reason fo the tempreture drift is the components around the crystal - varicap etc
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> what is the ppm drift again?
[22:07] <natrium42> jcoxon, yay
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[22:08] <RocketBoy> no idea - we normally get a few Khz over a flight
[22:08] <natrium42> RocketBoy, can it be fixed?
[22:08] <jcoxon> natrium42, the only issue will be actually getting supplies
[22:08] <natrium42> which supplies?
[22:08] <jcoxon> natrium42, whats the issue with the drift?
[22:08] <jcoxon> natrium42, well new parts - tis xmas so our mail system collapses
[22:08] <natrium42> i guess not a big problem
[22:08] <jcoxon> and its snowing
[22:08] <natrium42> right
[22:08] <RocketBoy> there are several ways to fix the problem - the simplest is a small crystal oven
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> I today got a mail from rapidonline.com saying they can deliver untile the 22nd before xmas
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> RocketBoy: or a 1/8thW R glued to the xtal
[22:10] <RocketBoy> sure - or a dpac transistor or similar
[22:10] <RocketBoy> its not hugely difficult - just that noone has bothered to do it
[22:11] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[22:11] <SpeedEvil> and it adds another fdailure
[22:11] <RocketBoy> sticking it in a lump of polystyrene solves most of the issues
[22:11] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[22:11] <jcoxon> another graph: http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/missions:ballasthalo:ballasthalo3#data
[22:12] <jcoxon> if you look at hte bottom of the curve you can see two distinct lines - payload rotating catching hte setting sun?
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> It was overcast when launching?
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> yeah - that was my interpretation
[22:13] <RocketBoy> jcoxon: did you run the crc check over my data?
[22:14] <RocketBoy> and if so how good/bad was it?
[22:14] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, yes
[22:14] <jcoxon> it was good
[22:14] <jcoxon> and i could correct most errors
[22:15] <RocketBoy> oh - the missing characters?
[22:15] <jcoxon> well quite a lot of the string is set
[22:16] <RocketBoy> I think we should step up a level on the checking - use CRC rather than checksum
[22:16] <jcoxon> so it wasn't difficult to correct and if it was a single number i just trialled and errored
[22:16] <natrium42> jcoxon, so how do i order the NTX2?
[22:16] <jcoxon> natrium42, i need to get one as well
[22:16] <RocketBoy> - or add a FEC block
[22:16] <jcoxon> i could order 2 and send you one
[22:16] <natrium42> that'd be cool
[22:19] <natrium42> i'll paypal you whatever your expenses are
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[22:20] <jcoxon> no worries
[22:20] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, it would be relativly trivial (well, relative to something, i guess) to write a C program that deduces bit-flips based on the required format of the string, some sanity checks based on where the balloon should be, and the checksum
[22:20] <jcoxon> perhaps 2 modules
[22:21] <jcoxon> to save you ordering another
[22:21] <natrium42> sounds good :)
[22:26] <RocketBoy> DanielRichman: really its impossible to correct bit errors with a checksum (if you know the string is correct other than a missing byte then you can work out the byte value - but thats it)
[22:27] <RocketBoy> for example 12 gives the same checksum as 21
[22:27] <jcoxon> okay
[22:27] <jcoxon> i have now finished documenting ballasthalo 3
[22:27] <jcoxon> too much perl and gnuplot
[22:28] <RocketBoy> the checksum really only gives you a small level of confidence that the string is correct
[22:28] <Randomskk> gnuplot is okay
[22:28] <Randomskk> perl less so
[22:28] <Randomskk> a better checksum or some error correction'd be cool
[22:28] <Randomskk> but you also don't want an error in the checksum
[22:29] <Randomskk> like if you got the whole string correct except for a digit of the checksum? suck
[22:29] <Randomskk> especially if you later assume the checksum is correct and attempt to change the string to make it ft
[22:29] <Randomskk> fit*
[22:31] <RocketBoy> yeah - this is a well trodden dilemma - the real solution is some form of error correction that will stand errors in the data or its FEC block
[22:31] <SpeedEvil> plus someother demodulator that doesn't throw out a byte on a framing error
[22:31] <jcoxon> i don't really understand why radiometrix only sell a few of their modules through their online shop and the rest require you to call them up
[22:31] <RocketBoy> but I like the idea of the data being clear - so that it can easilly be read
[22:32] <DanielRichman> RocketBoy, I know, but provided only 1 or 2 bits are flipped, it should be obvious. If the first 4 bits of a number flip, for example, it will be immediatly clear what the character shouuld have been
[22:32] <DanielRichman> RocketBoy, or if onen of the $ has become something that is just 1 bit flip away, that could be corrected
[22:32] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, i think its vital that the data is easily eye-balled
[22:34] <RocketBoy> jcoxon: yeah - there is a whole aspect to this where its good to be able to see the data - wheather its corrupt or not
[22:35] <RocketBoy> DanielRichman: I agree there are a number of easy to notice and fix errors - missing $ , * etc.
[22:35] <DanielRichman> RocketBoy, I'm just suggesting that this can be automated, and this might make a few more strings validate and therefore get posted to the tracker
[22:35] <RocketBoy> the high order bits etc
[22:36] <Randomskk> might be worth investigating encoding protocols besides RTTY50
[22:36] <RocketBoy> Oh i agree it could be automated - and filtered to remove data that doesn't fit
[22:37] <RocketBoy> but I think it would be worth improving the protocols used so that they were more self correcting in the 1st place
[22:39] <Randomskk> olivier olivia does error correction doesn't it?
[22:39] <Randomskk> uh
[22:39] <Randomskk> olivia
[22:39] <RocketBoy> Randomskk: we used to use 300bps in the 1st few flights - but moved to 50 baud to simplify the components needed
[22:39] <Randomskk> true
[22:39] <RocketBoy> orignally my plan was to use 300baud (HF) packet radio
[22:39] <Randomskk> that's the problem with more complicated protocols
[22:39] <DanielRichman> RocketBoy, doesn't olivia use more than 2 tones, though?
[22:40] <Randomskk> it does
[22:40] <Randomskk> it's MFSK
[22:40] <Randomskk> it also works when 10dB below the noise floor, apparently
[22:40] <DanielRichman> Hmm
[22:40] <Randomskk> additionally it contains FEC
[22:40] <DanielRichman> sounds like more of a pain to get working
[22:40] <DanielRichman> though
[22:40] <Randomskk> it also sounds cool, in terms of listening to it
[22:40] <DanielRichman> :D
[22:40] <Randomskk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivia_MFSK check out the samples
[22:41] <Randomskk> or get fldigi to generate some for you
[22:41] <DanielRichman> Indeed
[22:41] <RocketBoy> yeah there are several multi-tone formats - but they are difficult to accuratly generate using the available transmitters
[22:41] <Randomskk> I think that's a pretty major factor
[22:41] <jcoxon> WB8ELK is a big fan of DominoEX
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> I was looking a bit ago at something rather simple
[22:41] <Randomskk> I still think olivia is the coolest sounding
[22:41] <Randomskk> dominoEX is good too though
[22:41] <jcoxon> and he has it working with a simple saw oscilator apparently
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> basically, buisness as normal, 40-50 bytes of payload.
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> then 20 bytes or so of FEC
[22:42] <jcoxon> "The way I do DominoEX on the license-free 434 MHz modules (it's an 18 tone MFSK format) is to AM modulate a 434 MHz SAW oscillator circuit"
[22:42] <RocketBoy> Dominoex cant fe generated with a FM module like the ntx2
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> if you don't understand the FEC - it just works as now
[22:42] <RocketBoy> be
[22:42] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, i like that idea
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> It needs - for the 'advanced' decoder - something a little better than fl-digi
[22:43] <DanielRichman> Would reduce message frequency to about 3 a minute, but in return you get FEC
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> Which doesn't throw away chars on bit errors and such
[22:44] <jcoxon> but also more receivers would help
[22:44] <Randomskk> fldigi isn't that great anyway
[22:44] <jcoxon> and more fun
[22:44] <Randomskk> I think ed was working on something better to decode the rtty that'd be more noise resistant
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> no, fldigi isn't that great
[22:44] <Randomskk> I mean, it's good, but not for this
[22:44] <jcoxon> but its crossplatform :-p
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> it is however easy, and many people may have it installed already
[22:45] <Randomskk> yea but they need to install dl-fldigi anyway
[22:45] <RocketBoy> yeah - dominoex is a phase shift/amptitude format - I doubt that you could do it without modifying the module - hence no good as licence exempt - but of a ham (and hence ok in the uS)
[22:45] <Randomskk> so having normal fldigi installed is more of a hinderance if anything
[22:45] <Randomskk> e.g. on ubuntu where I had to uninstall my existing fldigi to install dl-fldigi
[22:45] <RocketBoy> of = ok
[22:45] <jcoxon> Randomskk, yeah but you exsiting installation was the default 2.x
[22:45] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: isn't domino-ex sent as an audio signal?
[22:45] <jcoxon> which is old
[22:45] <Randomskk> nah it's not
[22:46] <Randomskk> 3.11
[22:46] <jcoxon> oh they've upgraded
[22:46] <jcoxon> finally
[22:46] <jcoxon> i personally don't see an issue with dl-fldigi vs fldigi
[22:46] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: and therefore, if you can stuff it over any sort of connection it should work
[22:46] <RocketBoy> gordonjcp: thats the way its normally generated - audio tones into a ssb tx
[22:46] <Randomskk> except it posts to the tracker ever time I open it? :P
[22:46] <jcoxon> they are identical apart from curl and that can be turned off and on
[22:46] <gordonjcp> ie. it's not like G3RUH
[22:46] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: so it should be fine on FM too
[22:47] <jcoxon> and its a lot easier to debug for the general person then the old python scripts
[22:47] <Randomskk> something homemade for this wouldn't be bad - you could integrate into it a lot better and have it all ready to just decode our signals rather than many different options
[22:47] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: if anything, slightly better since you know that the received frequency is going to be correct
[22:47] <jcoxon> Randomskk, yes but this is why we chose fldigi - so WB8ELK is planning to use dominoEx this weekend with the tracker
[22:47] <Randomskk> ah
[22:47] <Randomskk> true
[22:47] <jcoxon> and so when we go trans-a we can make our choice of format
[22:48] <jcoxon> so if we chose CW, RTTY and MFSK16 or something
[22:48] <Randomskk> how's he generating dominoex/
[22:48] <Randomskk> ?*
[22:48] <jcoxon> we could rig it to change appropriately according to time
[22:48] <RocketBoy> gordonjcp: the problem of putting audio over FM is that it reduces the range considerably due to the wide bandwidth that the signal uses
[22:48] <jcoxon> Randomskk, i'm not to sure
[22:49] <jcoxon> natrium42, i've emailed radiometrix about modules (and may have put in a sneaky P.S about 425km range test on monday...)
[22:49] <RocketBoy> for exable I think we could get about 30Km on 10mw - with the same setup we get 400km with direct narrow shift FSK
[22:49] <natrium42> :D
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[22:49] <RocketBoy> exable = example
[22:54] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: yeah, but it should still be better than afsk
[22:54] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: you may also find it's better than FSK because the small loss in range is made up for by the error correction and OFDM-like signal
[22:58] <RocketBoy> gordonjcp: I think you are saying that dominoex over FM would be better than say afsk packet - and that probably true - but not by much - the real problem with FM is that it degrades so quickly - its great up to the point where it degrades then its reasonably rapid degradation with distance
[23:00] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: well yes, once you get below about -110dBm
[23:00] Action: SpeedEvil ponders silliness.
[23:01] <RocketBoy> yep - and you have a 10KHz channel rather than 500Hz (i.e. 13db more noise)
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> broadcast 115200bps - same packets as now - but repeated a thousand times, and with them inverted accordingly in a spreading code.
[23:02] <RocketBoy> or do what GPS does
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> yes - that was GPS backwards
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> using hte message as the spreading code
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> effectively
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> actually - no - nor rally - it's just sorta
[23:04] <RocketBoy> Don't let me stop anyone trying this - i havn't got all the answers - there are lots of solutions to this - but the one we have kinda works - it just needs improving a bit in speed and accuracy
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> Something that 'just works' at least in some form with easily available software has big plusses
[23:05] <RocketBoy> yeah
[23:09] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: what about that ofdm mode in soundmodem?
[23:09] <gordonjcp> can't remember the name of it
[23:09] <gordonjcp> 5kbps, designed to work on SSB links
[23:12] <RocketBoy> I cant see how to generate that with a licence exempt module
[23:14] <RocketBoy> night all
[23:14] <SpeedEvil> night
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[23:35] <junderwood_> jcoxon, Nice graphs from the flight. I think I can probably fill in at least one of the gaps early on. Just need to turn the laptop on tomorrow and check the fldigi logs
[23:37] <jcoxon> junderwood_, oh thanks
[23:38] <jcoxon> though i might go insane if i have to plot them :-p
[23:38] <jcoxon> the area i'm most interested is the plateau
[00:00] --- Fri Dec 18 2009