highaltitude.log.20091213

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[00:35] <Randomskk> thicker elements better?
[00:36] <Randomskk> woo vague generalisations, I know right
[00:37] <Randomskk> 4mm is like half the price of 6mm, and the calculator says I only need slightly longer elements, but I guess it would affect how much power I could put into it if I theoretically wanted to use it to tx
[00:38] <Randomskk> does also affect ease of cutting and working and drilling holes and weight though
[00:38] <Randomskk> 4mm it is!
[00:45] <Randomskk> oh pants, the b&q in leatherhead is out of stock of everything below 8mm
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> ebay!
[00:45] <Randomskk> won't get here soon enough
[00:45] <Randomskk> they do have stock in new malden which is closeish, or I could go for 8mm alu
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/7-9mm-x-330mm-x-3-off-ALUMINIUM-BARS-ROD-HE30-6082_W0QQitemZ390128836600QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item5ad57d9ff8
[00:45] <Randomskk> I can't drill 8mm holes I don't think
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> why not?
[00:46] <Randomskk> don't think I have an 8mm drill bit or drill that'l take an 8mm bit anyway
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> most drills will
[00:46] <Randomskk> hmm
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> unless they are dremel-like
[00:46] <Randomskk> brb a sec, checking dad's drill bit collection
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> ~10mm is about the smallest
[00:46] Action: Randomskk 's own drill is a dremel
[00:48] <Randomskk> okay! he does
[00:48] <Randomskk> can a 25mm diameter plastic tube take 8mm holes? maybe!
[00:48] <gordonjcp> yes
[00:48] <gordonjcp> you won't weaken it *that* much
[00:48] <gordonjcp> is this for making an aerial?
[00:48] <Randomskk> yes
[00:48] <Randomskk> yagi
[00:49] <Randomskk> I take it anodised aluminium will be acceptable? I'm not soldering to it anyway, brass for the driven element
[00:49] <Randomskk> they are out of stock of non-anodised aluminium >.>
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> it's all anodised really
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> unless it's been kept in an inert atmospere.
[00:49] <Randomskk> I guess.
[00:50] <Randomskk> oxidised anyway
[00:52] <gordonjcp> you could polish it
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> in an inert atmosphere
[00:52] <gordonjcp> drill the holes slightly tighter than the OD of the tube, and chamfer the ends
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[00:55] <Randomskk> hmm. is it worth going for the 6mm brass over the 4mm brass?
[00:55] <Randomskk> it's almost twice as expensive
[00:55] <gordonjcp> no
[00:56] <gordonjcp> definitely not
[00:56] <gordonjcp> is this for the driven element?
[00:56] <Randomskk> yes
[00:56] <gordonjcp> which antenna design?
[00:56] <Randomskk> yagi
[00:56] <gordonjcp> yeah, but *which*?
[00:56] <Randomskk> 6 director DL6WU yagi
[00:56] <Randomskk> at 434mhz
[00:56] <gordonjcp> okay
[00:57] <gordonjcp> just use brazing rod for the DE, it'll be fine
[00:57] <gordonjcp> that's 8-ele total, bit too short for DL6WU
[00:57] <Randomskk> I could probably add more elements
[00:57] <Randomskk> got enough spare metal given as they sell it in 1m lenghts
[00:58] <gordonjcp> well the DL6WU design calls for a boom length several wavelengths long
[00:58] <Randomskk> hmm
[00:58] <Randomskk> that could be tricky as my current boom tube is 2m
[00:58] <gordonjcp> that's probably long enough
[00:58] <Randomskk> I could be just shy of 3 wavelengths at 2m, but that would be a bit awkward to make and use
[00:59] <Randomskk> I was planning on only having about 1m, but a few more directors could bump it up to 2x wavelength
[00:59] <gordonjcp> I build a 6/11 element WA5VJB "Cheap Yagi" design
[00:59] <gordonjcp> it was 6-ele and 1m long, with a 1m "extension" with five more directors
[00:59] <gordonjcp> so you could have it really high gain but narrow beamwidth, or wider beamwidth but less gain
[01:00] <Randomskk> in this instance I guess I want it as directional and high-gain as possible
[01:00] <gordonjcp> tbh at 6 elements it was a bit too narrow for LEO sats but okay for distant repeaters
[01:00] <Randomskk> however I also want it to be buildable in a day and fit on my existing 2m bit of boom, etc
[01:00] <gordonjcp> Randomskk: fixed link?
[01:00] <Randomskk> balloon tracking
[01:01] <Randomskk> but I'll be pointing it :P
[01:01] <Randomskk> I guess crazy directional wouldn't be great
[01:02] <Randomskk> oh dear, it doesn't think the store has more than 2m of alu rod
[01:02] <gordonjcp> yeah
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[01:02] <Randomskk> I bet they'll have more if I turn up tomorrow
[01:02] <Randomskk> but probably not available to just reserve online
[01:02] <gordonjcp> you do *not* want it to be very directional for that
[01:02] <Randomskk> but I do want high gain :P
[01:03] <gordonjcp> preamp
[01:03] <gordonjcp> and filters
[01:03] <Randomskk> hopefully my ic7000 can cope by itself
[01:03] <Randomskk> it does have a preamp and a dual peak RTTY filter
[01:04] <gordonjcp> no, RF filtering
[01:04] <Randomskk> yea
[01:04] <Randomskk> a dual peak RF filter for RTTY signals
[01:04] <Randomskk> as in, the filter shape is like _/\_/\_
[01:04] <gordonjcp> mmm, I can't see how that would ever work
[01:04] <Randomskk> dsp
[01:06] <Randomskk> hmm. if I need to improvise when I actually get to the store, is hollow tube going to work as well as a rod?
[01:06] <Randomskk> calculator doesn't seem to have an option for that
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> yes
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> Once you're two skin depths deep - there is going to be bugger all distance.
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> differnece
[01:07] <Randomskk> great
[01:07] <Randomskk> okay
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> which for 433MHz means foil is OK if you can support it
[01:08] <Randomskk> :P
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> Oh - I forgot that.
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> take a sheet of cardboard
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> a big long bit
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> cut some aluminium foil elements, and you're done.
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> glue, and that's it.
[01:08] <Randomskk> haha
[01:08] <Randomskk> sick
[01:09] <Randomskk> just glue rectangles of alu to a bit of card
[01:09] <SpeedEvil> Done that for TV antenna, worked well.
[01:09] <Randomskk> and connect wires up to the dipole?
[01:09] <Randomskk> literally a flat antenna?
[01:09] <SpeedEvil> yes. Well - I had a loop of copper wire as the driven element
[01:09] <SpeedEvil> yes
[01:10] <SpeedEvil> But if you get them in the right position, it can work very well
[01:10] <Randomskk> as good as making it "properly" out of plastic tubing and metal rods?
[01:10] <Randomskk> or nearly as good, anyway?
[01:10] <SpeedEvil> Lots less rigid of course
[01:11] <Randomskk> yup
[01:11] <Randomskk> what about foil stuck to cardboard cutouts and glued onto my current plastic boom?
[01:11] <Randomskk> I don't have a 2m long bit of cardboard to glue foil to
[01:11] <SpeedEvil> if you get them in the right place - yes - that will work
[01:11] <SpeedEvil> it's going to be fiddly though
[01:11] <SpeedEvil> and not very robust of course
[01:11] <Randomskk> yea.
[01:11] <SpeedEvil> I used it as an indoor TV antenna
[01:11] <SpeedEvil> ~3 elements IIRC
[01:12] <Randomskk> no issues with the foil lying flat in the direction of propagation, instead of perpendicular to it?
[01:12] <SpeedEvil> I don't recall, I just remembered it worked quite well with good directivity
[01:12] <Randomskk> ____________ --> rather than _|_|__|_|_|_ -->, as it were?
[01:12] <SpeedEvil> as I understand it, there shouldn't be a difference
[01:13] <Randomskk> neat
[01:13] <SpeedEvil> my antenna-fu is weak though.
[01:15] <Randomskk> it's a pretty interesting idea. I'm thinking of a PCB yagi now
[01:15] <Randomskk> especially at nice high frequencies
[01:16] <Randomskk> and you could stack them in PCB layers
[01:17] <Randomskk> ha http://technolab-inc.com/EBAY/Supra_wave_2.jpg
[01:17] <SpeedEvil> stacking in PCB layers is going to do almost nothing.
[01:17] <Randomskk> too close? :(
[01:17] <SpeedEvil> For stacking, you want the elements to be at least a substantial fraction of a wavelength apart
[01:19] <Randomskk> just need to use a suitably high wavelength :P
[01:19] <Randomskk> hmm
[01:19] <Randomskk> this FCC filing has pictures of someone's PCB yagi too
[01:19] <Randomskk> though mainly that seems to be useful for 2.4ghz given the sizes involved
[01:20] <Randomskk> https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=226894&native_or_pdf=pdf pgs 13 and 14
[01:20] <Randomskk> though their elements are weird lengths
[01:21] <Randomskk> ha unless it's an optical illusion thanks to the diagonals on the PCBs
[01:25] <Randomskk> http://www.frars.org.uk/images/contentimages/1108.jpg is a piece of laser cut sheet metal in the shape of a yagi
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[03:23] <natrium42> hi
[03:23] <Randomskk> yo
[03:23] <Randomskk> wait what. I should be asleep. seeya
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[03:26] <natrium42> lol, gnite
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[10:50] <jcoxon> morning all
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[10:58] <edmoore> morning all
[10:59] <edmoore> jcoxon: have you run a grib recently?
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[11:00] <jcoxon> edmoore, doing it right now
[11:09] <juxta> hi all
[11:10] <edmoore> good morning (evening?) juxta
[11:10] <juxta> evening here ;p
[11:12] <juxta> has anybody here used OziExplorer before?
[11:13] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jcoxon' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[11:14] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jcoxon!n=jcoxon@host81-152-141-191.range81-152.btcentralplus.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk, wiki.ukhas.org.uk, BallastHalo 3 launch 13:00-14:00GMT, Churchill - Long duration + ballast tanks http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[11:14] <juxta> launch today jcoxon?
[11:15] <jcoxon> tomorrow
[11:15] <jcoxon> oops
[11:15] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jcoxon!n=jcoxon@host81-152-141-191.range81-152.btcentralplus.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk, wiki.ukhas.org.uk, BallastHalo 3 launch 14/12/09 13:00-14:00GMT, Churchill - Long duration + ballast tanks http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[11:16] <juxta> nice, hopefully I'll be awake and can follow :D
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[11:41] <jcoxon> wow
[11:42] <jcoxon> with a backup battery the lassen is so much better
[11:43] <edmoore> :)
[11:43] <jcoxon> it got lock in under a minute inside
[11:43] <Laurenceb> yeah ~45 second lock
[11:44] <Laurenceb> you really need a backup battery
[11:44] <jcoxon> i never get a lock inside
[11:44] <jcoxon> got on yesterday :-)
[11:44] <Laurenceb> tho there is the risk of ram corruption
[11:44] <Laurenceb> I added a command to soft reset the lassen on the rogallo
[11:45] <Laurenceb> with lots of RFI it can get corrupted ephemeris
[11:45] <jcoxon> oh its all wrapped up in its special enclousure
[11:46] <jcoxon> polystyrene and space blanket
[11:46] <Laurenceb> I was running it indoors with no lock for hours
[11:46] <Laurenceb> testing other hardware
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[11:55] <jcoxon> my least favourite passtime - stipping coax
[12:02] <edmoore_> pretend it's an actual strip
[12:02] <edmoore_> hum the music from the full monty
[12:02] <edmoore_> makes it more fun
[12:03] <jcoxon> i do worry about you guys at cusf :-p
[12:03] <edmoore_> 'you can keeeeeeeep your BNC on'
[12:04] <Laurenceb> why did I know this was coming
[12:04] <jcoxon> thats actually quite good
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[12:09] Nick change: edmoore_ -> edmoore
[12:10] <jcoxon> edmoore, anything i haven't done yet?
[12:10] <edmoore> ruled the world
[12:10] <edmoore> i think tings are under control
[12:11] <edmoore> maybe drumming up listening clients in the south?
[12:11] <jcoxon> yeah thats a good point
[12:11] <edmoore> as i probs can't go home
[12:12] <jcoxon> well we'll have Randomskk
[12:12] <jcoxon> doug will also track (i know he is north but he'll have good coverage
[12:12] <jcoxon> will kick the others
[12:13] <edmoore> Randomskk: how are you shaped up for yagis?
[12:16] <jcoxon> edmoore, steve said he might try out some long range testing
[12:16] <jcoxon> and also using globaltuners
[12:16] <edmoore> cool
[12:16] <jcoxon> there are a couple of receivers downsouth
[12:16] <edmoore> that'd be a good opportunity
[12:18] <jcoxon> hehe : http://maps.google.com/?q=http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/receivers.php&t=p
[12:18] <jcoxon> juxta, you make it look a lot cooler having a listener in australia
[12:19] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, ping
[12:19] <jcoxon> mikemc will be well placed as well
[12:19] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, I'll be at school - will it still be up at 4:30?
[12:19] <juxta> heh
[12:19] <DanielRichman> :P
[12:20] <DanielRichman> When I get home I'll start tracking asap
[12:20] <jcoxon> yeah thats great
[12:20] <DanielRichman> ohwait -
[12:20] <jcoxon> it won't be down to you for a while
[12:20] <juxta> should be a few more on the list once I get a few of the hams to install dl-fldigi
[12:20] Action: russss is still desperately trying to find an F connector
[12:20] <jcoxon> :-)
[12:20] <DanielRichman> I'll have to give the radio to sbasuita since Monday is school concert etc so won't be home
[12:20] Action: Laurenceb needs to get a decent yagi
[12:20] <russss> I have quite a good view to the south from my rooftop
[12:20] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, I'll bring in the radio and give it to you, okey?
[12:21] <Laurenceb> wheres the cheapest yagis?
[12:21] <juxta> plumbing section of the hardware store
[12:22] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, ok
[12:22] <jcoxon> russss, maplins unfortunately do sell them
[12:22] <edmoore> Laurenceb: diy
[12:22] <jcoxon> so the aim is a slow ascent rate and reaching float around 16:30
[12:22] <russss> previous office used to be directly above a maplins, dunno where the nearest one is now.
[12:23] <Laurenceb> I guess theres diy
[12:23] <sbasuita> jcoxon, is r63 recent enough or should i update the debs?
[12:23] <jcoxon> the more people around the better especially after that as it'll be drifting south
[12:23] <Laurenceb> the ham ants are so overpriced
[12:23] <jcoxon> r63 is fine
[12:23] <russss> hm not too far.
[12:24] <juxta> I've written a little app to take fldigi's decoded telemtry and plot it live on OziExplorer (offline mapping software) relative to my vehicle position
[12:24] <juxta> seeing as I won't have net access in the car most likely
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[12:50] <sbasuita> Hmm, forgot to reupload dl-fldigi for karmic when it was released. Doing that now ;)
[12:52] <jcoxon> use r63 - the otherones aren't really ready to be used
[12:53] <sbasuita> jcoxon, ok
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[12:53] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, it'd be nice if dl-fldigi didn't conflict with fldigi
[12:53] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, not really
[12:53] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, becauase they do anyway
[12:53] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, give them two binary names
[12:54] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, maybe. I haven't looked into it. What is the point of having both anyway
[12:54] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, vanilla copy
[12:54] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, for?
[12:54] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, fun.
[12:54] <DanielRichman> besides, I have no idea how the modifications work
[12:55] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, ok, i'll look into it later maybe
[12:55] <DanielRichman> Does it upload even when you arn't explicitly tracking/haven't chosen to
[12:55] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, no real rush
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[13:17] <Randomskk> back
[13:17] <Randomskk> should be heading to b&q to get real metal rods in a few mins
[13:18] <Randomskk> so I should have something ready by tomorrow afternoon
[13:18] <Randomskk> sbasuita: I still want vanilla fldigi for non-balloon-tracking purposes, after all
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[13:19] <Randomskk> bye edmoore :P
[13:22] <jcoxon> Randomskk, oh dl-fldigi can still be used as fldigi
[13:23] <jcoxon> just have to deselect a tick box
[13:24] <Randomskk> doesn't it still communicate to the server, though?
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[13:26] <RocketBoy> jcoxon: the balloon and chute is dropped off
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[13:32] <sbasuita> =/
[13:32] <sbasuita> Getting a build failure
[13:32] <sbasuita> http://pastebin.com/d69599d28
[13:32] <sbasuita> (scroll down to skip the chroot setup at the top)
[13:33] <Randomskk> weird
[13:33] <Randomskk> I just built it okay here
[13:33] <sbasuita> That's amd64 btw
[13:33] <Randomskk> on amd64 as well
[13:33] <sbasuita> Hmm
[13:33] <Randomskk> but it's not actually working, can't access sound card
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[13:33] <sbasuita> Oh
[13:33] <sbasuita> *facepalm*
[13:34] <sbasuita> No wait
[13:34] <sbasuita> that's not the problem
[13:34] <sbasuita> ; P
[13:34] <Randomskk> and also it hangs when I try to quit it
[13:35] <sbasuita> Randomskk, apparently revision 63 is the one to be using atm
[13:35] <Randomskk> ah, okay
[13:35] <Randomskk> I am on 69 apparently
[13:35] <Randomskk> broked?
[13:36] <sbasuita> Randomskk, <jcoxon> use r63 - the otherones aren't really ready to be used
[13:38] <jcoxon> hehe 69 is new code
[13:39] <jcoxon> please stick to 63
[13:39] <Randomskk> how does I svn co an old revision?
[13:39] <sbasuita> jcoxon, any thoughts on that build failure?
[13:41] <Randomskk> bbl getting metal
[14:08] <sbasuita> Damn, I can't even build the fldigi source published in karmic =/ =/ =/
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[14:23] <Laurenceb> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18262-strange-norway-spiral-likely-an-outofcontrol-missile.html
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[14:23] <Laurenceb> you can see the ascent
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> Which will have been the 'ray' that some spoke of coming from the midle
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> confused through telling
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> or maybe not
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[14:37] Action: SpeedEvil sighs at http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=200W%2F%283100+J%2FK%2Fl*80K%29+in+litres%2Fhour&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
[14:37] <SpeedEvil> (how much my bath tap has been leaking for the past ages)
[14:38] <SpeedEvil> based on electricity readings 200W higher than they should be.
[14:41] <sbasuita> Looks like the fldigi build errors are due to gcc being upgraded
[14:41] <sbasuita> Think I'll just copy over the deb from jaunty then
[14:57] <jcoxon> yeah sorry about the state of dl-fldigi - haven't had time
[15:00] Action: edmoore likes python script + vanilla fldigi
[15:01] <Randomskk> yaay
[15:01] <Randomskk> I am now the proud owner of 4m of 6mm anodised aluminium and 1m of 4mm brass rods
[15:01] <jcoxon> edmoore, if you've got python install sure
[15:02] <Randomskk> you can just use vanilla fldigi and a python script?
[15:02] <edmoore> yes
[15:02] <edmoore> Randomskk: cool
[15:02] <edmoore> and co-ax?
[15:02] <jcoxon> well you used to
[15:02] <Randomskk> yea, 25m of RG58 coax
[15:02] <Randomskk> and some PL259 plugs
[15:02] <Randomskk> edmoore: what python script?
[15:02] <Randomskk> (not planning on using all 25m, loss would be silly)
[15:03] <Randomskk> (probably more like 5m or maybe 10m)
[15:03] <edmoore> 3 would probs be fine for most situations
[15:03] <Randomskk> b&q was the place to go to in the end, homebase and focus were both shit
[15:03] <edmoore> can always make an extension cable
[15:03] <Randomskk> okay, I can do 3
[15:03] <Randomskk> true
[15:03] <Randomskk> oh and I've got a bit of plastic pipe for the boom
[15:03] <Randomskk> or I could use some of the alu rod
[15:04] <edmoore> the calculator is happy with either
[15:04] <Randomskk> the alu rod being in 1m lengths would make that a bit tricky though
[15:04] <Randomskk> plus I can drill holes in the pipe and just glue the elements in place
[15:05] <Randomskk> pipe is 2m
[15:05] <edmoore> perfect
[15:05] <Randomskk> should 6 directors be sufficient?
[15:06] <Randomskk> I have enough metal to make more but the extra gain is less and less and the antenna ends up longer, heavier, less wieldy
[15:06] <Randomskk> it says 10.4dBd for 6 elements
[15:06] <edmoore> do you have a car?
[15:06] <Randomskk> no
[15:06] <edmoore> ok
[15:07] <edmoore> well, being able to fit across a parcel shelf is useful
[15:07] <edmoore> so 6-el sounds good
[15:07] <Randomskk> 6 el gives me about 1.1m boom
[15:07] <Randomskk> and I can even make a folded dipole, yay
[15:07] <Randomskk> okay gotta run for some school thing, be back later this pm and I'll get drilling
[15:08] <edmoore> cool
[15:08] <edmoore> document!
[15:08] <edmoore> document the contruction
[15:08] <Randomskk> good plan
[15:08] <Randomskk> will photograph
[15:09] <jcoxon> edmoore, i thought - instead of pvc piping and finding an end to drill in for hte vent we could instead use the end of a bottle
[15:10] <edmoore> can you clamp a balloon neck hard onto tht?
[15:10] <jcoxon> hmmmm true
[15:10] <jcoxon> my concern is really that i'm not going to get to homebase in time :-p
[15:24] <edmoore> jcoxon: where is the nearest one to you?
[15:25] <jcoxon> peckham
[15:27] <edmoore> ok
[15:29] <jcoxon> well more the Old Kent Road
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[15:47] <jcoxon> hey RocketBoy
[15:47] <jcoxon> did you make it to churchil earlier?
[15:49] <edmoore> RocketBoy: jcoxon: the balloon and chute is dropped off
[15:49] <jcoxon> oh great
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[16:07] <RocketBoy> jcoxon: edmoor:
[16:07] <RocketBoy> e
[16:07] <RocketBoy> droped them off about 11:00
[16:08] <jcoxon> great
[16:13] <jcoxon> hehe - it takes so long to run flight simulations
[16:13] <jcoxon> just testing my ballast drop logic
[16:19] <edmoore> jcoxon: have you ever bumped into James Miller?
[16:19] <jcoxon> nope
[16:19] <jcoxon> don't think so
[16:20] <edmoore> very techy ham based in cambridge, does lots of stuff with amsat, often see links to his pages but have never actually bumped into him
[16:20] <jcoxon> no
[16:20] <jcoxon> never heard of him
[16:20] <jcoxon> when i was there i didn't know any radio guys
[16:23] Nick change: RocketBoy -> RocketBoy|Away
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[16:54] <edmoore> Randomskk: if you get on a role, http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/w6shp/lindy.html
[16:54] <edmoore> I've wanted to make one of these for a wee bit
[16:55] <edmoore> jcoxon: http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/hourly-predictions/
[16:55] <edmoore> it's doing interesting things
[17:02] <jcoxon> edmoore, not much change from earlier
[17:02] <jcoxon> right will bbl
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[18:23] <sbasuita> What would the performance of a £20 solar panel charger be like? (need a gift for a tech/eco/outdoors friend)
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: probably poor
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: that will typically charge a couple of AA cells in a day or so of full sun
[18:29] <Randomskk> sbasuita: like a powermonkey/freeloader?
[18:29] <sbasuita> Randomskk, yes
[18:29] <sbasuita> Randomskk, i've been looking at the latter for five minutes
[18:30] <Randomskk> I prefer powermonkeys to freeloaders but both are kinda meh in terms of solar panels
[18:30] <Randomskk> they work
[18:30] <Randomskk> but not very fast
[18:30] <Randomskk> I had two on my mongolia expedition and okay, we were able to charge ipods
[18:30] <Randomskk> but kinda slowly
[18:30] <Randomskk> however the powermonkey's battery thing was also very useful
[18:31] <Randomskk> when we got mains power (rarely), we could charge the powermonkey's own battery, and use that charge to charge our own devices
[18:31] <Randomskk> as well as solar
[18:31] <Randomskk> basically: they work but slowly
[18:31] <sbasuita> Randomskk, mmm, sounds like the same features as the freeloader
[18:31] <sbasuita> I guess it doesn't matter that much if its not high performance
[18:31] <sbasuita> Just needs to work reasonably well
[18:32] <sbasuita> Thought it would be more interesting than the inevitable money-in-card gift
[18:32] <Randomskk> yea
[18:32] <Randomskk> definitely
[18:32] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: pancake in card?
[18:33] <sbasuita> Although my mate did get me a massive heavy box wrapped up. So I was all excited but then I opened it and it was full of sand with 15 quid resting on top ;P
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> Adopt a tree?
[18:33] <Randomskk> hah nice
[18:33] <sbasuita> SpeedEvil, last time I checked, adopting trees was free ;)
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[18:56] <MikeMc> evening
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[19:04] <natrium42> hi mike
[19:13] <sbasuita> Ok I'll get this http://www.solartechnology.co.uk/shop/freeloader-pico.htm
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[19:21] <MikeMc> anyone used solar panels on a flight?
[19:22] <edmoore> not us
[19:23] <edmoore> i think someone did some notepad sums a bit back and concluded that batteries made sense on payloads of our size for anything less than about 10 days of operation
[19:23] <MikeMc> i see
[19:25] <edmoore> i can't get to the wiki which posted the sums though, it was on the old secret wiki which I've lost my login details for
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[19:54] <Randomskk> okay
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[19:55] <Randomskk> reflector, 6 directors and driven element cut
[19:55] <Randomskk> and driven element bent roughly into shape
[19:55] <Randomskk> boom marked up
[19:55] <Randomskk> time to get drilling some holes in the boom
[19:55] <Randomskk> and the proceedings so far photographed
[19:55] <edmoore> awesome
[19:55] <Randomskk> the photographs may have been mockups of what I did but it's close enough :P
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[19:56] <Randomskk> got some araldite to glue them together with too
[19:56] <Randomskk> figured that'd work as well as anything
[19:56] <Randomskk> better not get it too wrong though
[19:56] <edmoore> if it's good, will comission you to make a quad stack of 11 or 12-els to the rotator-tron
[19:56] <Randomskk> lol
[19:56] <Randomskk> the process would be a bit faster with the cued workshop, admittedly
[19:56] <Randomskk> I suspect they have a better way to bend the rods
[19:57] <Randomskk> how critical is the shape of the dipole? the gap between the ends is pretty much correct and the bends are approximately correct but not exactly perfect semicircles
[19:58] <edmoore> folded? pretty important
[19:58] <edmoore> radius counts
[19:58] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:58] <Randomskk> hmm
[19:58] <Randomskk> hi jcoxon
[19:59] <natrium42> hi jcoxon
[19:59] <natrium42> preemtive combo breaker
[19:59] <Randomskk> good going there
[19:59] <Randomskk> may have to touch up the dipole then
[19:59] <jcoxon> hey
[19:59] <Randomskk> I guess I can test this thing on the local repeater
[20:00] <Randomskk> point it in approximately the right direction and hope I get a decent signal
[20:00] <Randomskk> it's on 433.3 so fairly close
[20:00] <natrium42> jcoxon, i hacked this in quickly yesterday --> http://spacenear.us/tracker/index2.php
[20:00] <natrium42> might be useful for a floater
[20:00] <Randomskk> otoh my current small magmount whip antenna gets S7 with the preamp on
[20:00] <jcoxon> oooo that is cool
[20:00] <Randomskk> (and apparently the S meter is calibrated for the preamp being on)
[20:01] <jcoxon> natrium42, what data needs to be fed in? still need to get rjharrison to fix the server
[20:01] <jcoxon> if he doesn't appear i'll do it myself
[20:01] <Randomskk> okay, I need to go find a way of drilling these holes then
[20:01] <Randomskk> bbl
[20:02] <natrium42> jcoxon, just add "data=<your data>"
[20:04] <jcoxon> okay lets try :-)
[20:04] <natrium42> feel free to delete the other tracks
[20:06] <Laurenceb> hi
[20:07] <natrium42> yo Laurence
[20:08] <Laurenceb> yo bro
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[20:08] <jcoxon> oooo and i added custom data as well
[20:08] <natrium42> seems to have worked :)
[20:09] <jcoxon> the time at hte bottom seems to have died
[20:09] <natrium42> hmm
[20:09] <natrium42> seems to have fixed itself
[20:10] <natrium42> is the distributed listening system forwarding the data now?
[20:10] <jcoxon> yes
[20:10] <natrium42> excellent
[20:10] <jcoxon> i just copied the bit that forwards speed and changed it to data
[20:11] <natrium42> :)
[20:12] <natrium42> yeah, it doesn't seem to handle time labels well sometimes
[20:12] <natrium42> needs to jump to bigger scale sooner
[20:13] <jcoxon> its a little unfair as i'm testing floating right now
[20:13] <jcoxon> doesn't have the main ascent etc
[20:15] <natrium42> jcoxon, what was the data format again? do you want me to split it up?
[20:16] <jcoxon> oo yeah
[20:16] <natrium42> [13:43] <jcoxon> ascentrate;atfloat;float_time;temp0;temp1;temp2;temp3;light1;totalPumpseconds;blevelperc;ballastmode;0
[20:17] <natrium42> that one still valid?
[20:17] <jcoxon> yup
[20:17] <natrium42> kk
[20:17] <natrium42> btw, i hopw you have some kind of error checking :P
[20:18] <natrium42> more places to have things screw up in the display...
[20:18] <jcoxon> there is a checksum :-p
[20:18] <jcoxon> as long as lat and lon are working i'm not too fused
[20:19] <jcoxon> fussed*
[20:28] <natrium42> jcoxon, what's that last field for?
[20:28] <jcoxon> oh its a dead field
[20:28] <jcoxon> it was heater
[20:29] <jcoxon> but its not being used
[20:29] <jcoxon> it'll be 0 on the day
[20:29] <natrium42> refresh index2.php
[20:29] <natrium42> does it look right?
[20:29] <jcoxon> yes but it extends outside the box :-p
[20:30] <natrium42> right... :P
[20:30] <jcoxon> atfloat translates as if = 10 no float if = 11 at float
[20:30] <jcoxon> if 12= dropping ballast
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[20:32] <natrium42> added
[20:32] <natrium42> anything else?
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[20:34] <jcoxon> that looks good
[20:37] <jcoxon> thanks natrium42!
[20:37] <natrium42> np, i will fix the boxes too
[20:38] <natrium42> there
[20:38] <natrium42> now the altitude indicator looks weird
[20:39] <jcoxon> hehe don't want to break the tracker :-p
[20:45] <jcoxon> ooo natrium42 there is one thing we could fix
[20:45] <jcoxon> basically when the temp goes negative it'll actually start up at 255
[20:45] <jcoxon> actually its more sensible if i fix it myself
[20:45] <jcoxon> no worries
[20:49] <natrium42> let me know if you still want me to fix it
[20:49] <natrium42> bbl
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[21:12] <Randomskk> holes drilled, araldite setting
[21:15] <Randomskk> how should the folded dipole be mounted? I can put the straight bit through the hole at the same level as all the directors and the dipole bit hang down below
[21:22] <RocketBoy|Away> its normal for the top element of the folded dipole to be aligned with the other elements - but I have also seen the middle aligned with the rest of the elements - so i doubt its that critical
[21:30] <juxta> from what I've read it's not overly critical
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[21:32] <Randomskk> hmm
[21:32] <Randomskk> okay I think my dipole needs a bit of flattening and rebending, it's really not bent sharp enough
[21:32] <Randomskk> or better yet, see what the calc comes up with for a much greater bend diameter :P
[21:34] <Randomskk> right, that requires a longer rod, so can't go there
[21:34] <Randomskk> just gonna have to find a way to bend this much more sharply
[21:34] <juxta> I bent mine by hand, the best way would probably be using a jig though, or bending it around something round like an aerosol can for shape
[21:34] <Randomskk> this has been bent by hand but it's not sharp enough
[21:34] <Randomskk> I designed for a 25mm diameter thinking I'd bend it around the boom pipe which is 25mm
[21:34] <Randomskk> however bending 4mm brass around that requires a fair bit of force when it's cold
[21:35] <juxta> good point
[21:35] <Randomskk> but going to a larger bend requires more rod length
[21:35] <Randomskk> however I cut my only metre of brass to 680mm so can't get any longer :P
[21:35] <juxta> I think you may affect your performance with too large a bend diameter in any case
[21:36] <Randomskk> yea
[21:36] <Randomskk> okay, so new plan is to find some way to bend this around the 25mm pipe
[21:36] <juxta> heh
[21:36] <juxta> is that brass 4mm diam?
[21:36] <Randomskk> yea
[21:36] <juxta> that's gonna be tricky to bend, you're right ;p
[21:36] <RocketBoy|Away> its best to heat it with a blow torch
[21:37] <Randomskk> however I don't have a blow torch. or heat resistant gloves
[21:37] <RocketBoy|Away> :-(
[21:37] <juxta> + PVC pipe won't take too well to hot brass
[21:39] <RocketBoy|Away> I'd suggest bending it away from the yagi - wait for it to cool before inserting it on the PVC
[21:39] <Randomskk> I'm using the cutoff from the yagi boom pipe for the shaping
[21:39] <Randomskk> or would be, anyway
[21:41] <Randomskk> I'm trying bending it into a loop to get the required bend diameter then straightening out the sides to preserve it and make it into the position I want
[21:41] <Randomskk> this might work
[21:43] <RocketBoy|Away> making a folded dipole is a bit hit and miss - getting it accurate is difficult
[21:43] <Randomskk> yes
[21:44] <Randomskk> this might just work
[21:44] <Randomskk> looking like the right diameter
[21:44] <Randomskk> I hope to god it's in the right place or this will be a total pain :P
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[21:47] <Randomskk> fffffffff
[21:47] <Randomskk> brass sheared
[21:49] <Randomskk> hmmm now what
[21:49] <RocketBoy|Away> got any more?
[21:49] Nick change: RocketBoy|Away -> RocketBoy
[21:49] <Randomskk> not enough to start it again
[21:50] <Randomskk> probably enough to make a non-folded dipole :P
[21:51] <Randomskk> or I have 1m of 6mm aluminium which is going to be much much harder to bend
[21:51] <RocketBoy> humm - I like hairpins - have you enough ofr this design :- http://www.texnet.net/ccent/rockets/txrx/433mhzYagi.gif
[21:52] <Randomskk> that's what my folded dipole looks like currently to be honest
[21:52] <Randomskk> my elements are probably not in quite the right place or the correct length
[21:52] <RocketBoy> http://www.texnet.net/ccent/rockets/txrx/receiving_antenna_construction.htm
[21:52] <RocketBoy> worth a measure
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[21:54] <Randomskk> I take it soldering the brass together is not exactly going to work
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[21:56] <jcoxon> typical - i'm still fixing my payload the night before
[21:57] <RocketBoy> yeah I'm always doing that too
[21:59] <RocketBoy> well i'm all set with global tuners - except I have a trail account for the 1st 2 weeks - so I can get bumped from the reciver
[22:00] <RocketBoy> I'm thinking of becomming a station using the CAT interface of the IC-R7000 - seems simple enough
[22:03] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, oh have my login
[22:03] <jcoxon> also if you ask people won't interfere
[22:04] <MikeMc> howdy
[22:04] <jcoxon> hey MikeMc
[22:04] <jcoxon> you around tomorrow afternoon/evening to track?
[22:05] <Randomskk> hmm
[22:05] <Randomskk> I reckon I could probably make it out of the aluminium, but soldering to it would be a total mess
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[22:08] <Randomskk> that said, this brass isn't taking solder either
[22:08] <Randomskk> typical
[22:09] <RocketBoy> I have never had any luck soldering aluminium - don't beleive any of the web pages there are about it
[22:10] <RocketBoy> brass should solder very easily - just need to get it hot enough
[22:10] <Randomskk> that might be the issue
[22:10] <Randomskk> is soldering the only way to go here?
[22:11] <RocketBoy> tin the brass - by heating it over a cooker ring
[22:11] <Randomskk> I still don't have a brass dipole though and can't make one
[22:12] <Randomskk> I do have enough Al to make a folded dipole out of that, and I think I might be able to bend it (with a larger bend radius this time)
[22:12] <Randomskk> but connecting to it would then be a massive issue
[22:13] <RocketBoy> some form of meachanical clamp perhaps?
[22:14] <Randomskk> could be done
[22:14] <Randomskk> I could probably cut a slot into it and wrap wire through and round
[22:14] <MikeMc> erm...
[22:14] <Randomskk> possibly even drill a thin whole through
[22:14] <MikeMc> not sure yet jcoxon
[22:14] <jcoxon> no worries
[22:14] <Randomskk> hole* even
[22:14] <MikeMc> you launching tomorrow?
[22:14] <jcoxon> yeah 14:00
[22:14] <MikeMc> i can alway sleave the equipment running
[22:15] <jcoxon> the drift will be considerable
[22:15] <jcoxon> no worries MikeMc
[22:15] <MikeMc> ahh yes
[22:15] <MikeMc> well i can do it once i get back
[22:15] <MikeMc> this is a long flight yes?
[22:17] <jcoxon> thats the plan
[22:18] <MikeMc> in that case i can track later that night
[22:18] <MikeMc> what's the flight path?
[22:18] <jcoxon> will post a kml
[22:18] <jcoxon> one sec
[22:19] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: ballast launch?
[22:19] <Laurenceb> whats the plan? when are you going to do the drop?
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> good luck!
[22:20] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:21] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, get float, wait 20mins of float dump 100mls
[22:21] <jcoxon> wait for float again, dump repeat
[22:21] <Laurenceb> right ok
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> what if float doesn't happen
[22:21] <jcoxon> MikeMc, http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php/missions:ballasthalo:12141405.kml.zip?id=missions%3Aballasthalo%3Aballasthalo3&cache=cache
[22:21] <Laurenceb> how do you get float? vent hole
[22:21] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, yeah
[22:21] <jcoxon> like last time
[22:21] <Laurenceb> ah I see
[22:21] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, retrieve and fly again :-p
[22:21] <Randomskk> araldite set, all the directors and reflector are in place
[22:22] <Randomskk> just need this dipole :(
[22:25] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: are you logging data?
[22:25] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: itd be pretty useful if you can log as much data as possible - we can use it to fine tune some sim code
[22:26] <Laurenceb> gps, ballast sensor and anything else that can be logged
[22:26] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, all being downlinked
[22:26] <jcoxon> http://spacenear.us/tracker/index2.php
[22:26] <Laurenceb> hmm but what if its corrupted
[22:26] <Laurenceb> whats the flight computer?
[22:26] <jcoxon> AVR
[22:27] <jcoxon> ignore the messy track - i keep reseting the sim
[22:27] <Laurenceb> yeah a bit of a pain to interface SD cards
[22:28] <jcoxon> also 2 downlinks
[22:28] <jcoxon> backup morse beacon with a little bit of data on it as well
[22:28] <Laurenceb> you have CRC?
[22:28] <Laurenceb> on the data
[22:28] <jcoxon> yes
[22:28] <Laurenceb> ok yeah with the multiple listeners we should get almost all of it logged ok
[22:29] <Laurenceb> this should be very useful :P
[22:29] <Randomskk> would a plastic coating on antenna elements have a big negative effect?
[22:31] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, fingers crossed it all works
[22:31] <Randomskk> I mean, people use insulated wire for HF dipoles, right?
[22:31] <jcoxon> found a bug in the code so am squishing it right now
[22:31] <SpeedEvil> plastic coating will slightly increase the effective diameter
[22:31] <jcoxon> well not really a bug but millis() isn't keeping time too well
[22:31] <SpeedEvil> but it's probably not meaningful for what you are doing
[22:32] <Randomskk> okay
[22:32] <jonsowman> hows the yagi going Randomskk
[22:32] <Randomskk> jonsowman: I snapped the brass I was bending to make a folded dipole out of
[22:32] <Randomskk> I do not have any more brass and neither does b&q
[22:32] <MikeMc> thanks jcxon
[22:32] <MikeMc> jcoxon
[22:32] <jonsowman> oh dear thats not so good
[22:32] <Randomskk> I do have aluminium, but I can't solder to it
[22:32] <Randomskk> besides that fantastic, the directors and reflector are all cut and inserted into the boom and glued into place
[22:33] <jonsowman> nice one
[22:33] <Randomskk> I'm thinking I could make the folded dipole bit out of some thick wire cabletied to some backing plate
[22:33] <jcoxon> i think he is on his way back to cam
[22:33] <Randomskk> and that would be very easy to solder to
[22:33] <jonsowman> ah right, thanks jcoxon
[22:33] <Randomskk> given as it'd just be wire
[22:33] <jcoxon> Randomskk, i've seen people use plug wire
[22:33] <jonsowman> Randomskk: sounds like a good idea to me
[22:34] <Randomskk> I can't see that it'd be any worse than a bit of brass rod except less durable
[22:34] <Randomskk> and look worse
[22:36] <Laurenceb> try tapping a hole into the Al
[22:36] <Randomskk> I could probably manage that
[22:36] <Randomskk> dremel and a 1mm bit
[22:36] <Laurenceb> do you have any bolts
[22:36] <Hiena> Hey, guys! I'm working on a vacuum forming table. Anybody interested for a lightweight, durable instrument case for HAB?
[22:36] <Laurenceb> or screws?
[22:36] <Randomskk> uh
[22:36] <Randomskk> think so
[22:36] <Randomskk> M3ish
[22:36] <Laurenceb> should work
[22:37] <Laurenceb> might need a 2.5mm hole
[22:37] <Randomskk> and then use the bolt to hold the wire against the al?
[22:37] <Laurenceb> yeah
[22:37] <Randomskk> hmm I could probably come up with something along those lines
[22:38] <Randomskk> easiest thing to do to the rod would be to cut a notch into it
[22:38] <Laurenceb> a hole of tapering diameter would work as well
[22:38] <Randomskk> and then I could wrap wire through it a few times, put some solder in top even if it won't stick to the al it'l still hold the wire down, then epoxy it
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[22:39] <Randomskk> don't have a 2.5mm bit or a tapered bit
[22:39] <Laurenceb> if your careful with a 1mm bit you could pull it off
[22:40] <Laurenceb> erm probably the wrong expression :P
[22:40] <Laurenceb> yeah you could solder to the brass bolt
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> Depends how much robustness you care about.
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> Are you going to use this thing often, or once or twice?
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> Are you going to be gentle with it, or may it have to do double duty as a boar spear?
[22:41] <Randomskk> well it needs to work tomorrow afternoon
[22:41] <Randomskk> I can make it work better later
[22:41] <Randomskk> in the future I can buy some more brass rods
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[22:43] <jcoxon> yaya found the bug
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[22:59] <Randomskk> yaay the new aluminium folded dipole is the right shape
[22:59] <Randomskk> I figured out how to properly use that bit of tube to shape it
[22:59] <Randomskk> if only I'd figured that out before breaking the brass
[23:00] <Randomskk> sigh
[23:00] <edmoore> fill w/ sand?
[23:02] <Randomskk> nah, I just put it on the floor, stood on it, then pulled both sides of the metal to be shaped up at once
[23:02] <Randomskk> working out the correct position for the centre of the bend would have been useful too
[23:02] <Randomskk> anyway lesson learnt and at least the aluminium one is the right shape
[23:02] <Randomskk> just need to connect it up now
[23:02] <Randomskk> should the wires connect to the very tip of the antenna?
[23:04] <edmoore> the very tips of the gap? i think so yes
[23:04] <Randomskk> wonder how I'll do that
[23:04] <Randomskk> hmm
[23:05] <edmoore> creme brulee torch
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[23:05] <Randomskk> I think a notch cut into the flat of the tip
[23:05] <Randomskk> say 1mm deep
[23:05] <Randomskk> and wrap wire round through it
[23:05] <Randomskk> then solder on top to hold it in place and epoxy the whole thing
[23:06] <Randomskk> wish I had a creme brulee torch :P
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> blowtorch is cheap and a good investment
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> Everything from soldering, to making cheese toasties.
[23:08] <Randomskk> I really need to kit myself out with more mechanical tools
[23:09] <Randomskk> logic analysers are no good when you need to cook a creme brulee
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> Insane.
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> Just did some tests on 3g.
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> My n900 - ~200kbytes/s download from kernel.org - on sofa.
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> My DSL - ~50k
[23:10] <Randomskk> lol
[23:10] <Randomskk> 3g or HSDPA
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> It says 3.5G
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure what that is.
[23:10] <Randomskk> ?_?
[23:11] <SpeedEvil> Though I only have a 1G quota on that - which isn't great.
[23:17] <RocketBoy> my 3G is going to get a bashing tomorrow afternoon - as I try to use global tuners / dlfldigi / dl tracker from work
[23:18] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, wow
[23:18] <jcoxon> it might struggle
[23:20] <RocketBoy> well the 3G speed is good (a few 100 yards from the mast) - but I'm not sure about the quota
[23:20] <Randomskk> massive advantage of having to use alu dipole: looks much better
[23:21] <RocketBoy> :-)
[23:23] <RocketBoy> oh well - i'm off to bed - I'll be tracking tomorrow afernoon
[23:23] <jcoxon> thanks RocketBoy
[23:34] <Randomskk> yay araldite now setting the dipole into position
[23:37] <jcoxon> yay got gps lock
[23:37] <RocketBoy> yea
[23:38] <RocketBoy> nights
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[00:00] --- Mon Dec 14 2009