highaltitude.log.20091212

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[00:15] <ssapphiree> guys... is there an EASY way to track my balloon?
[00:15] <ssapphiree> you know... with the minimum of efforts and money
[00:15] <ssapphiree> because right now it appears the hardest task for me
[00:16] <edmoore> where are you based?
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> string
[00:17] <Randomskk> but how long is the piece of string?
[00:17] <Randomskk> edmoore: looks like I can go down to ML&S tomorrow
[00:17] <ssapphiree> I'm in Russia
[00:17] <ssapphiree> Moscow
[00:17] <Randomskk> worth getting that really expensive piece of metal that strips the insulation and other crap from the coax?
[00:18] <edmoore> no
[00:18] <Randomskk> knife job?
[00:18] <edmoore> i used my leatherman to do all of our stuff
[00:18] <Randomskk> yup
[00:18] <edmoore> the long patch cables of thick coax etc
[00:18] <edmoore> ssapphiree: I would get an amateur radio license
[00:18] <Randomskk> £45 is more than everything else for the entire antenna put together
[00:18] <ssapphiree> edmoore: how would a license help?
[00:19] <edmoore> you can then use amateur radio equipment to listen to your balloon
[00:19] <Randomskk> do you need a license to receive?
[00:19] <edmoore> i don't actually know about the legality of transmitting from a balloon in russia
[00:19] <edmoore> Randomskk: no
[00:19] <ssapphiree> SpeedEvil: I'm afraid I would need a HUGE balloon to lift >40 km long string :D and where would I get a string...
[00:20] <ssapphiree> edmoore: you know... it's Russia
[00:20] <Randomskk> edmoore: or to transmit from the balloon on the 434 band we use?
[00:20] <ssapphiree> you actually don't have to have a license
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> ssapphiree: ebay
[00:20] <edmoore> sure
[00:20] <edmoore> ok, well that would probably be the easiest way then, to answer your q
[00:20] <edmoore> Randomskk: nope, we're in the unlicensed region
[00:20] <ssapphiree> I don't care much about legality really :D how would they track me, the receiver, anyway
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[00:21] <Randomskk> ssapphiree: by watching who comes to pick up the transmitter? :P
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately, there isn;'t really a good cheap way.
[00:21] <ssapphiree> I think they're gonna be lazy for that
[00:21] <Randomskk> I suspect so
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> cheap, light, inexpensive, reliable, pick any two.
[00:22] <edmoore> cheap != inexpensive ?
[00:22] <SpeedEvil> err
[00:22] <SpeedEvil> meh
[00:22] <ssapphiree> :D
[00:22] <ssapphiree> inexpensive and reliable
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> string.
[00:23] <ssapphiree> the weight doesn't bother me... it's not me who will lift the payload, it's the balloon :D
[00:23] <ssapphiree> oh :D
[00:23] <ssapphiree> I suspect it's not inexpensive
[00:24] <ssapphiree> at least 40 km string and also, how many balloons will I need to lift that string? :))
[00:24] <Randomskk> depends on how light the string is really
[00:24] <Randomskk> make it out of a single really really long carbon nanotube
[00:24] <Randomskk> probably not very strong though, all things considered
[00:25] <ssapphiree> that's a neat idea
[00:25] <ssapphiree> but it's also not inexpensive :D
[00:25] <Randomskk> if I was doing that I'd make the string out of something conductive and just send data back down it
[00:25] <ssapphiree> I wouldn't
[00:25] <Randomskk> but regardless string is not a very practical idea at our current level of string technology
[00:26] <Randomskk> I take it SpeedEvil is working on that though? :P
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Super-Strong-BRAID-Fishing-Line-10LB-2000M-ON-SALE_W0QQitemZ170387855943QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_SportsLeisure_Fishing_Line_JN?hash=item27abe85a47
[00:26] <ssapphiree> why would you need to send data back if you will just pick up the payload? that's what we use the string for :D
[00:26] <Randomskk> because pulling in a few hundred km of string would get boring fast
[00:26] <ssapphiree> :)))
[00:27] <ssapphiree> Moscow citizens will be surprised
[00:27] <Randomskk> and possibly injured
[00:27] <ssapphiree> by the String crossing the whole city
[00:28] <Randomskk> you would probably piss off more officials with the string than with a powerful radio transmitter to be honest
[00:28] <ssapphiree> and then some frackin train will just cut it off suddenly
[00:28] <ssapphiree> yeah
[00:28] <ssapphiree> I agree :)))
[00:28] <SpeedEvil> That above string isn't actually too bad - 2.5GPa
[00:29] <Randomskk> yes but
[00:29] <ssapphiree> it's only 2 km
[00:29] <Randomskk> it's also £20 for 2km
[00:29] <ssapphiree> 20 pounds per 2 km...
[00:29] <Randomskk> £10 per km and you need a few hundred
[00:29] <Randomskk> so a few thousand pounds on string? :P
[00:29] <Randomskk> also they have "more than ten available" but possibly not "fifty to a hundred or so available"
[00:29] <ssapphiree> well I think 300 km will be enough, and it would cost 3000 pounds
[00:29] <ssapphiree> excellent
[00:30] <ssapphiree> the cheapest way of tracking
[00:30] <ssapphiree> 21st century
[00:30] <ssapphiree> :D
[00:30] <Randomskk> :P
[00:30] <ssapphiree> so...
[00:31] <SpeedEvil> I think it weighs only ~400g though, so you get at best 20km of vertically hanging string before needing to double up
[00:31] <Randomskk> better yet just have the string taught and connect a tin can to the other end
[00:31] <Randomskk> taut?
[00:31] <Randomskk> I think taut is more appropriate
[00:32] <ssapphiree> it's weight is not specified
[00:32] <Randomskk> bloody hell!
[00:32] <SpeedEvil> ssapphiree: no - however it's polythene - calculate it out from a 0.14mm dia spherical line
[00:32] <Randomskk> postage is £25 on that £20 length of string
[00:33] <SpeedEvil> ~900Kg/m^3 * 0.07mm^2*pi*2000m
[00:33] <ssapphiree> hm
[00:33] <ssapphiree> maybe you're right SpeedEvil
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[00:33] <ssapphiree> but still... it's not inexpensive :))
[00:34] <ssapphiree> well, being serious... really, is there an easy way to track?
[00:34] <ssapphiree> what is the easiest? (considering that the string is not the easiest)
[00:35] <Randomskk> radio transmitter on the balloon and receiver with you
[00:35] <Randomskk> a nice mobile amateur radio receiver like a yaesu ft-817 with a homemade 434mhz yagi should do the trick, apparently
[00:35] <Randomskk> and you can get a range of things suitable for transmission on the balloon
[00:35] <Randomskk> depends on what the legal specifications for transmission power etc are in russia
[00:36] <ssapphiree> all I need for now is the coordinates actually :))
[00:36] <Randomskk> that's the easiest way to transmit them really
[00:36] <Randomskk> well, easiest for highest reliability
[00:36] <Randomskk> you could use a mobile phone
[00:37] <ssapphiree> but it's not reliable?
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[00:37] <Randomskk> it's less reliable
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[00:37] <n900evil> stupid dsl
[00:38] <ssapphiree> yeah, I also will need coordinates at the top altitude...
[00:38] <ssapphiree> okay then
[00:39] <ssapphiree> but besides the radio transmitter on the balloon, there must be a system converting signals from GPS receiver to the transmitter, right?
[00:39] <Randomskk> yea
[00:40] <Randomskk> but a basic avr will suffice, an arduino could do the job nicely if you've never done that kinda thing before
[00:44] <ssapphiree> I see... so then: a GPS receiver, an AVR, a radio transmitter... and all that can be lost if I don't find the balloon :(
[00:46] <ssapphiree> and if an AVR is surely a passenger of my payload then why not putting a camera and maybe even something more... :))
[00:47] <ssapphiree> btw, has anyone used a camera module from a mobile phone instead of sending a camera?
[00:48] <ssapphiree> it's so small and light and I will not regret of losing it if anything happens... but I just don't know how it behaves in stratosphere
[00:48] <ssapphiree> and also I don't know how to control it
[00:52] <Randomskk> they are kinda difficult to use
[00:52] <Randomskk> AVRs are a few dollars, cameras are a lot more :P
[00:52] <Randomskk> but you should definitely put a camera in it too, that's how you get the pretty photos
[00:52] <ssapphiree> yeah
[00:53] <ssapphiree> anyway I can find some cheap used camera
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[00:54] <ssapphiree> can someone help me to find a GPS receiver please? there's a frackin swamp of various navs and devices with gps and some other stuff... appear on ebay
[00:55] <ssapphiree> I don't need a nav right? it's about some chip only transmitting data?
[00:55] <ssapphiree> I mean... not transmitting, just giving it out
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[01:08] <ssapphiree> should it be something like that? http://photos03.allegroimg.pl/photos/400x300/845/26/64/845266490_1
[01:09] <Randomskk> nah
[01:09] <Randomskk> sparkfun.com have a good range of gps receivers
[01:09] <Randomskk> you want something like that
[01:09] <Randomskk> that'l plug into your avr
[01:11] <ssapphiree> like such? http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8785
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[01:14] <natrium42> n900evil, you got the N900?
[01:15] <Randomskk> ssapphiree: well that doesn't have a GPS receiver on it but will connect to one and may be a neat way to get the avr involved
[01:15] <ssapphiree> omg :))
[01:15] <ssapphiree> I'm just looking for a cheap way of making that
[01:16] <ssapphiree> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8825 - this is a receiver right?
[01:17] <ssapphiree> but it's quite expensive... :(
[01:18] <Randomskk> it is, but an antenna would be required as well
[01:18] <Randomskk> you can get them with a builtin antenna
[01:20] <ssapphiree> hm... won't it work without an antenna considering that it's gonna happen in open space?
[01:20] <Randomskk> nope.
[01:21] <ssapphiree> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=177 - is this only an antenna or it's a receiver with antenna?
[01:22] <natrium42> easiest payload --> http://radioworld.ca/product_info.php?products_id=4361
[01:22] <natrium42> that plus a camera
[01:22] <natrium42> maybe the cheapest too
[01:22] <natrium42> if you don't have any other components lying around
[01:27] <ssapphiree> wow
[01:27] <ssapphiree> that's interesting
[01:29] <natrium42> however you will learn more if you go the microcontroller route...
[01:29] <ssapphiree> yeah I know...
[01:30] <ssapphiree> interesting what's gonna happen if some balloon amateur requests 911 at 30 km altitude with that thing
[01:30] <ssapphiree> :D
[01:31] <natrium42> lol
[01:32] <natrium42> better not press that button :P
[01:33] <ssapphiree> :))
[01:33] <ssapphiree> Operating Altitude: -300 feet to +21,000 feet
[01:33] <ssapphiree> :\
[01:33] <ssapphiree> only 21k feet
[01:33] <natrium42> yeah, it's GPS stops working above 18km
[01:33] <natrium42> but it's OK to find where it landed
[01:33] <ssapphiree> hm
[01:34] <ssapphiree> why does GPS stop working? can it be fixed?
[01:34] <natrium42> yes, but it's not easy --> http://natrium42.com/projects/spot/
[01:34] <ssapphiree> wow
[01:35] <ssapphiree> a lot of work
[01:35] <natrium42> it stops working because chip manufacturers don't implement the government guidelines correctly...
[01:35] <ssapphiree> heh
[01:35] <natrium42> it should be 60k feet AND high speed
[01:35] <natrium42> but they do 60k feet OR high speed
[01:36] <ssapphiree> I see ))
[01:38] <ssapphiree> I wonder how it sends data to SPOT satellites without using a lot of power?
[01:38] <ssapphiree> I thought a transmitter must be quite strong to reach satellites
[01:39] <natrium42> the messages are very short at 40 bits
[01:39] <natrium42> so probably low baudrate and high power bursts
[01:40] <ssapphiree> I see
[01:40] <natrium42> and there is no downlink, only uplink
[01:40] <natrium42> but it's good enough for positions and maybe a few sensor reading
[01:40] <natrium42> +s
[01:41] <natrium42> ssapphiree, you should use GLONASS XD
[01:41] <ssapphiree> hah
[01:41] <ssapphiree> I'm not sure about its reliability you know
[01:41] <ssapphiree> :))
[01:41] <natrium42> yes...
[01:42] <ssapphiree> you're russian by the way, aren't you?
[01:42] <natrium42> yeah, i was born in moscow
[01:43] <ssapphiree> nice))
[01:47] <ssapphiree> hm
[01:48] <ssapphiree> I like the idea of using satellite communication
[01:48] <ssapphiree> but have you succeeded in that project?
[01:49] <ssapphiree> sent altitude?
[01:49] <natrium42> yes
[01:49] <ssapphiree> cool
[01:53] <ssapphiree> so it's only necessary to reconnect some pins on board, cut off the microcontroller, connect your own, and use the code, right?
[01:54] <natrium42> yep, but the soldering is quite tiny
[01:54] <natrium42> but it's quite doable
[01:54] <ssapphiree> huh, soldering was always my weak point
[01:54] <ssapphiree> but I think I can do that
[01:55] <ssapphiree> the idea of communicating through satellites makes me inspired :D
[01:55] <natrium42> :)
[01:55] <ssapphiree> and... is that SPOT tracking service free?
[01:56] <natrium42> no, but it's unlimited with yearly flat rate
[01:56] <ssapphiree> oh I see, and what's the rate?
[01:57] <natrium42> $100 per year for basic service
[01:58] <natrium42> tracking function is $50 extra, but is not really needed if you hack it
[01:58] <ssapphiree> :D I see
[01:58] <ssapphiree> well, not too much
[01:58] <natrium42> "There is also an optional USD$8 per year insurance plan to cover private search and rescue costs, such as helicopter extraction, up to USD$100,000."
[01:58] <natrium42> :P
[01:59] <ssapphiree> heh
[01:59] <natrium42> might be useful if payload gets stuck in a tall tree
[01:59] <natrium42> j/k
[01:59] <ssapphiree> :)))
[02:03] <ssapphiree> hmmm... I'm trying to choose a way
[02:04] <ssapphiree> radio comm or satellite comm
[02:04] <Randomskk> satellite comm is pretty awesome if you can get it working
[02:04] <ssapphiree> radio comm has no yearly rate though
[02:05] <Randomskk> it's also a lot simpler
[02:05] <Randomskk> imo
[02:05] <ssapphiree> and radio is harder for me
[02:06] <ssapphiree> and the worst point about radio: I will have to receive the signal physically
[02:06] <ssapphiree> and will have a chance of losing it
[02:06] <Randomskk> yes
[02:06] <ssapphiree> the question is: do this all points cost $100/year?
[02:07] <ssapphiree> I think yes
[02:07] <Randomskk> radio might involve more than $100 in setup
[02:07] <ssapphiree> yeah
[02:07] <Randomskk> a receiver's gonna be a good bit more, so is the antenna there, the radio transmitter and gps module and avr for the radio will be more
[02:07] <Randomskk> but then you already also have to pay for helium, for the balloon itself, for any cameras you put onboard...
[02:09] <ssapphiree> :)) well... I think I incline to go the satellite way
[02:09] <ssapphiree> it's gonna wait for me to have money to buy it though :))
[02:10] <ssapphiree> well, any of this balloon equipment is going to wait anyway
[02:11] <ssapphiree> but I'm glad that this sat way exists!
[02:11] <ssapphiree> thank you natrium42 for showing me
[02:12] <ssapphiree> by the way! about the receivers again. Just wanna make it clear for myself
[02:12] <ssapphiree> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=177
[02:12] <ssapphiree> is that a receiver with antenna?
[02:12] <ssapphiree> or JUST antenna?
[02:13] <Randomskk> just antenna
[02:13] <ssapphiree> frak
[02:13] <ssapphiree> satellites are waiting for me
[02:13] <ssapphiree> then
[02:13] <ssapphiree> :)))
[02:13] <ssapphiree> omg it's 5 am
[02:13] <Randomskk> I like http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8975 for gps+antenna
[02:13] <ssapphiree> I have 2 hours to sleep ))
[02:14] <Randomskk> it's probably not very suitable for high altitude balloons or whatever though
[02:14] <Randomskk> still you are talking at least $50ish for this kinda thing
[02:14] <ssapphiree> I see
[02:14] <Randomskk> bear in mind the box of electronics for the SPOT thing requires you to buy that box, which is about £120 here or so, plus the yearly fee
[02:16] <ssapphiree> it's $120 here: http://radioworld.ca/product_info.php?products_id=4361
[02:16] <Randomskk> sounds like a typical US to UK price conversion :P
[02:16] <ssapphiree> only double price of a receiver
[02:17] <ssapphiree> it's a canadian website
[02:17] <ssapphiree> I think there is no any conversion
[02:17] <Randomskk> I mean that in the UK we often end up paying in pounds what americans or canadians might pay in dollars
[02:17] <ssapphiree> oh
[02:17] <ssapphiree> huh
[02:18] <ssapphiree> but pound is almost twice higher isn't it?
[02:18] <ssapphiree> 1.5 at least
[02:18] <Randomskk> in the glory days it was
[02:19] <ssapphiree> @C@
[02:19] <ssapphiree> heh*
[02:19] <Randomskk> but buying something in a UK shop would still be really expensive: despite a currency rate of 2:1, they sell it as though it were 1:1 or thereabouts
[02:21] <Randomskk> anyway, sleep time
[02:21] <Randomskk> seeya
[02:25] <ssapphiree> yeah, sleep time
[02:25] <ssapphiree> bye all :)
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[08:33] <jcoxon> morning all
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[09:02] <jcoxon> hmmm i think nomads.ncep.noaa.gov might be down
[09:03] <jcoxon> so no flight predictions :-(
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[09:49] <edmoore> morning jcoxon
[09:50] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[09:50] <jcoxon> noaa seems to be down :-(
[09:50] <edmoore> got email
[09:50] <edmoore> hmph
[09:50] <jcoxon> yay
[09:50] <jcoxon> email okay?
[09:50] <jcoxon> explain enough?
[09:51] <edmoore> perfeck
[09:54] <edmoore> forwarded it to rjw
[09:54] <jcoxon> yeah thanks
[09:54] <edmoore> he's up fot helping w/launch etc
[09:54] <jcoxon> feel free to forward to cusf list
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[10:22] <jcoxon> edmoore, doug will be around to track
[10:22] <edmoore> cool
[10:25] <jcoxon> also steve might come on monday
[10:25] <jcoxon> if not he'll drop off balloon and parachute on sunday as he needs to go to EARs
[10:26] <edmoore> ok, i probs won't be around
[10:26] <jcoxon> porters?
[10:26] <edmoore> so if you could ask him to drop it with the porters, that'd be great
[10:33] <jcoxon> okay
[11:00] <jonsowman> morning all
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[11:06] <jcoxon> morning jonsowman
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[11:57] <jcoxon> morning RocketBoy
[11:57] <jcoxon> ed won't be around on sunday so if you do come up to cambridge could you drop the balloon/parachute off at the porters lodge at churchill?
[11:58] Laurenceb (n=laurence@host86-140-198-16.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[12:02] <RocketBoy> sure - my current thinking is that I'll drop it off early tomorrow morning (just waiting for someone to get back to me to confirm)
[12:02] <RocketBoy> (the balloon and chute)
[12:03] <Laurenceb> hi
[12:09] <Randomskk> anyone have suggestions on somewhere to get the metal rods for a yagi
[12:09] <Randomskk> +?*
[12:09] <Laurenceb> homebase?
[12:10] <Laurenceb> hardware store?
[12:10] <Laurenceb> they useually sell a small selection of aluminium sections
[12:10] <Randomskk> will homebase do them? they always seemed more inclined towards light bulbs and shit
[12:10] <Randomskk> homebase is pretty close
[12:11] <Laurenceb> they may have a rack of dowel sections ect
[12:11] <DanielRichman> The B&Q website shows some metal rods that I will be aquiring this weekend to build antenna
[12:11] <DanielRichman> *ae
[12:11] <SpeedEvil1> Randomskk: wander round some skips.
[12:12] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil1: the main thing is to get them quickly though
[12:12] <SpeedEvil1> ah
[12:12] <Randomskk> if jcoxon is planning to launch monday it'd be good to have it done by then :P
[12:12] <SpeedEvil1> pipe also works fine
[12:12] <Randomskk> I guess so
[12:12] <SpeedEvil1> as do metal rulers, ...
[12:12] <Randomskk> heh
[12:12] <SpeedEvil1> wander round the whole store, and see if you find anything that has metal rods that suit
[12:12] <Laurenceb> go to a steelmerchant
[12:12] <Randomskk> any convenient ways to attach the elements to the boom?
[12:13] <DanielRichman> Wood boom or metal boom?
[12:13] <DanielRichman> or, rather, conductive or not?
[12:13] <SpeedEvil1> you will often find stuff lots cheaper than the 'proper' section
[12:13] <Randomskk> not sure yet
[12:13] <Randomskk> I guess a wood boom would be super easy
[12:13] <Randomskk> drill some holes
[12:13] <DanielRichman> aye. Drill and glue gun
[12:13] <DanielRichman> it won't stick if you drop it
[12:13] <Randomskk> is a conductive boom better? it doesn't seem to make much difference on this calculator
[12:14] <DanielRichman> not better, as such
[12:14] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[12:14] <DanielRichman> but if you're ok with a conductive boom you can use aluminium tubing
[12:14] <DanielRichman> which won't bend, much lighter, suitable for mounting on a roof
[12:14] <DanielRichman> however, much harder to attach elements to
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> aluminium tubing isn;'t much lighter than wood
[12:15] <DanielRichman> Depends on what kind of wood you use
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> it's a bit lighter, but tehre isn't that much in it with reasonably low density wood
[12:15] <DanielRichman> yeah but low density wood breaks
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> depends
[12:15] <DanielRichman> Doesn't everything :P ?
[12:15] <DanielRichman> It's quite hard to make generalisations like we are, Randomskk.
[12:15] <Randomskk> fair enough
[12:16] <Randomskk> is there a huuuge amount of difference, or is the important thing to just get something vaguely conductive in roughly the right places?
[12:17] <Laurenceb> bamboo could be good
[12:17] <Randomskk> ooh, I even have bamboo in the garden
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> I like bamboo
[12:18] <Randomskk> that'd be easy to acquire
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> works well
[12:18] <Randomskk> shame it's not conductive or I'd be all set
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> I have a 6m pole 1/2 constructed from bamboo.
[12:18] <Randomskk> how do you stick the elements to it? drill again?
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> Dismantlable.
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> I glue and wrap string round
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> hot-melt
[12:18] <Randomskk> okay
[12:20] Action: Laurenceb has CC1020 eval boards on order
[12:20] <Laurenceb> should arrive monday
[12:20] <Laurenceb> I'm thinking of using an arduino to run a basestation (dont laugh)
[12:21] <DanielRichman> If I had one, what polarisation whould I be using for a 70cm yagi to track a balloon?
[12:21] <Laurenceb> vertical
[12:21] <DanielRichman> Is there a 1 sentence breakdown of polarisations used in 2m and 70cm?
[12:22] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, are you gonna use an Arduino along with some sort of computer to control it; ie. using the Arduino just to interface hardware, or is it going to be the sole processor in the setup
[12:23] <Laurenceb> as an interface for the board
[12:23] <Laurenceb> and convenient to setup at launches
[12:23] <DanielRichman> Ah, that's okey then. No laughing here
[12:24] <DanielRichman> DSP with an arduino would be a ... strange mix between interesting and futile
[12:24] <Randomskk> hey, don't laugh. I made an arduino transmit cw with no extra hardwire besides a long wire
[12:24] <Randomskk> the harmonics of a square wave were interesting
[12:24] <Randomskk> not very high frequency though
[12:25] <DanielRichman> :o
[12:25] <Randomskk> and I got my ARM chip to do 36MHz cw
[12:25] <DanielRichman> Is there a 1 sentence description of polarisations used in 2m and 70cm?
[12:25] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, don't you have to have a Full license to start designing your own kit?
[12:26] <Randomskk> plug it into a computer via a serial port and you can even have it transmit in CW whatever you type in
[12:26] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: nah Intermediate is sufficient to design your own kit
[12:26] <Randomskk> though strictly speaking this was not legal anyway
[12:26] <Randomskk> 36MHz is not exactly an amateur band
[12:26] <Randomskk> also I had no rx capability
[12:26] <Randomskk> however range was on the order of ten meters
[12:26] <DanielRichman> tastey
[12:26] <Randomskk> (there was an ft817 to receive the morse from the device)
[12:27] <Randomskk> it was literally just a PWM output at the highest possible frequency to a long random length wire (a proper antenna would presumably help matters a lot)
[12:27] <Randomskk> being keyed on or off to do morse
[12:27] <Randomskk> the receive antenna was another long bit of wire stuck into the antenna port on the ft817 so really both antennas were pretty shit
[12:27] <Randomskk> I tried to get the ARM to receive as well as transmit but that turns out to be a lot harder
[12:29] <Randomskk> also turning a square wave into a sine wave is apparently quite tricky
[12:29] <Randomskk> equally the arm is not really sufficient of doing DDS
[12:37] <RocketBoy> DanielRichman: I'm not sure what you mean by "Is there a 1 sentence description of polarisations used in 2m and 70cm" - do you mean typically? for habing? - cos in general all polarisations are used on all frequencies
[12:38] Action: SpeedEvil wonders if polarised gamma has any meaning
[12:38] <jcoxon> bbl
[12:38] <DanielRichman> RocketBoy, I'm talking about ham in general. For HAB I believe it's vertical polarisation if the balloon is transmitting from a 1/4wavegroundplane, and I've looked a bit and the answer to my original question seems to be that on 2m/70cm then FM is vertical and all else is horizontal
[12:38] jcoxon (n=jcoxon@host81-152-141-191.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) left irc: "Leaving"
[12:39] <DanielRichman> I've got my foundation license now and I'm trying to decide what antennae to put on the roof, given that the local club net is on 2m, HAB is on 70cm and ionosphere bashing is on 20m
[12:39] <DanielRichman> Also given that I'll only be using 5 Watts of 817ND
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> 20m 12 element yagi?
[12:40] <Randomskk> which local club net is that?
[12:40] <DanielRichman> Maybe not :P
[12:40] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, G4BRA
[12:40] <DanielRichman> So far I'm leaning towards a 20M Horizontal Dipole (maybe folded), a 2m Vertical Dipole and a 70cm Yagi
[12:40] <DanielRichman> since I'm getting the impression that a 5 watt erp will be plenty to talk to the net
[12:41] <RocketBoy> yes I guess thats a good summary for most operation for typical VHF/UHF ham radio - local/mobile operation is typically FM and vertical - long distance (CW/SSB etc) typically horizontal
[12:41] <DanielRichman> great
[12:41] <Randomskk> I thought that once you were getting ionosphere reflection the polarisation doesn't matter as much?
[12:42] <RocketBoy> but for habing you will want your yagi vertical
[12:42] <DanielRichman> indeed
[12:42] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, Maybe, but HF is horizontal and mounting a 10 meter long lump of metal on the roof is much easier horizontal
[12:42] <DanielRichman> it can be basically flush with the roof itself
[12:42] <DanielRichman> (I think?)
[12:42] <RocketBoy> incorrect poliriztion can result in as much as 20 db difference IIR
[12:43] <DanielRichman> okey
[12:44] <DanielRichman> How far away would I have to keep the antennae from each other?
[12:44] <RocketBoy> and yes over long distances particualraly ovet the horizon polirization can rotate
[12:44] <RocketBoy> over
[12:45] <RocketBoy> antenna on the same frequency or 2m/70cm ?
[12:45] <DanielRichman> 2m 70cm 20m
[12:46] <DanielRichman> although it's the 2m and 70cm that is important
[12:46] <RocketBoy> here is a good article - see the bottom of the page http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stacking/stacking2.htm
[12:46] <DanielRichman> since they'll be vertically mounted they may have to go on the same pole
[12:46] <Randomskk> you can get a combined 2m and 70cm whip for general use, though I guess for HAB you'll want 70cm yagi
[12:46] <DanielRichman> thanks
[12:46] <DanielRichman> Yeah, I've seen some 2m/70cm yagi designs floating about
[12:46] <DanielRichman> might have a more in depth look into them
[12:46] <Randomskk> I wonder if I can pick up g4bra from here
[12:47] <RocketBoy> yeah vertical yagi on a pole is a bit more problematic - best to end mount them
[12:47] <RocketBoy> otherwise the pole is seen as a partial element by the yagi
[12:48] <RocketBoy> or offset mounted would be ok
[12:48] <DanielRichman> Thanks for the link RocketBoy
[12:49] <DanielRichman> Yeah, could add a horizontal pole to the current pole and stick yagis on the end
[12:49] <DanielRichman> I need to work out how strong PVC is
[12:50] <RocketBoy> 44.8MPa ;-)
[12:50] <RocketBoy> bbl
[12:50] Nick change: RocketBoy -> RocketBoy|Away
[12:54] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: can you pick up GB3BN?
[12:54] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, I haven't bought a transceiver yet
[12:54] <Randomskk> ah, fair enough
[12:54] <DanielRichman> still in the planning stages
[12:54] <Randomskk> I guess not then :P
[12:54] <DanielRichman> :)
[12:59] <Randomskk> hmm
[13:00] <Randomskk> should I design the yagi for 434.00 mhz? seems to be the most common frequency but with various different bits in the 00
[13:01] <DanielRichman> 434.075 isn't it?
[13:01] <DanielRichman> most of the time
[13:01] <Randomskk> there's been 525 and 050 and others too though
[13:03] <DanielRichman> True, but 075 is the radiometrix one, isn't it?
[13:03] <Randomskk> oh, I guess so. certainly that's the one for monday
[13:03] <DanielRichman> Either way, If you peak at 434.075 you'll easily get 434.500, right?
[13:03] <gordonjcp> Randomskk: no
[13:03] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: yea, I should think so
[13:04] <gordonjcp> Randomskk: design your yagi for the centre of the band you want to use
[13:04] <Randomskk> gordonjcp: as in 435.000mhz for the 70cm band?
[13:04] <gordonjcp> Randomskk: so if you want to use 434.525 and 434.050, don't do it for 434.0 but for about 434.250
[13:04] <Randomskk> ah, okay
[13:04] <Randomskk> the 250khz or so makes a difference?
[13:04] <gordonjcp> incidentally 250kHz in a 70cm yagi is a couple of millimetres
[13:05] <gordonjcp> depends
[13:05] <gordonjcp> for a folded dipole, not in the least
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[13:05] <Randomskk> hopefully I'll be doing for a folded dipole, depends if I can manage to fold it
[13:05] <Randomskk> hi sbasuita_
[13:05] <Randomskk> which depends on what it's made out of and what tools I can find lying around :P
[13:05] <gordonjcp> Randomskk: okay
[13:06] <gordonjcp> http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/bendingjig.jpg
[13:06] <gordonjcp> that's what I use for making K5OE "handi-tenna" driven elements
[13:06] <Randomskk> neat
[13:07] <Randomskk> so just get a short length of tubing with the same diameter as the bend
[13:07] <gordonjcp> that's 6mm aluminium tubin, that I heat up with a blowlamp
[13:07] <gordonjcp> *tubing
[13:07] <Randomskk> don't have a blowlamp though
[13:07] <gordonjcp> the bend former is a 32mm cabinet leg from B&Q
[13:07] <gordonjcp> Randomskk: camping stove?
[13:08] <Randomskk> not got one of those either, though I guess it could be acquired if needed
[13:08] <gordonjcp> the aluminium tubing will kink if you try to bend it too sharply when it's cold
[13:08] Action: Randomskk was cooking over open fires last time he went trekking
[13:09] sbasuita (n=sbasuita@unaffiliated/drebellion) left irc: Nick collision from services.
[13:09] Nick change: sbasuita_ -> sbasuita
[13:09] <DanielRichman> gordonjcp, we've got this HUGE flamey thingy in technology. I'm not entirely sure what it is, since I don't do Resistant Materials DT, I do electronics, but I do know that it involves pressurised air and fuel and lots of heat. Should I be able to use that?
[13:09] <SpeedEvil> all you need is a blowjob
[13:09] <SpeedEvil> err
[13:09] <SpeedEvil> blowtorch
[13:09] <DanielRichman> wait, what?
[13:09] <DanielRichman> :P
[13:09] <DanielRichman> hmm, Okey
[13:09] Action: SpeedEvil is not properly awake
[13:10] <DanielRichman> I imagine if it gets too hot then it's not going to keep a nice cylindrical shape
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> Generally if you anneal it, it works - more or less
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> and annealing for aluminium and copper is heat to ~300C - which is well below 'red' heat
[13:11] <gordonjcp> Randomskk: sounds a bit excessive really
[13:11] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[13:11] <gordonjcp> bah
[13:11] <gordonjcp> DanielRichman: sounds a bit excessive
[13:11] <SpeedEvil> you don't really even want it red
[13:11] <DanielRichman> gordonjcp, okey.
[13:11] <gordonjcp> no
[13:11] <DanielRichman> :(
[13:11] <gordonjcp> aluminium melts into a puddle before it gets red hot
[13:11] <gordonjcp> oh
[13:11] Action: DanielRichman finds another excuse to use the big fiery thingy.
[13:11] <gordonjcp> and wear good thick *dry* gloves
[13:11] <SpeedEvil> well - it glows dull read
[13:12] <SpeedEvil> red
[13:12] <SpeedEvil> thick cotton gloves
[13:12] <gordonjcp> I use thick leather gloves
[13:12] <SpeedEvil> or leather
[13:12] <SpeedEvil> synthetics are bad
[13:12] <SpeedEvil> with the melting to skin, and the screaming.
[13:12] <gordonjcp> I've had some really really impressive burns off aluminium tubing
[13:12] <DanielRichman> impressive?
[13:13] <gordonjcp> DanielRichman: yeah, like 3mm deep semicircular groove across all my fingertips kind of impressive
[13:13] <DanielRichman> I'll wear some gloves :P
[13:14] <DanielRichman> The technology teachers at our school are veterans of burning, breaking drilling and making stuff. I'm sure I'll be fine
[13:14] <DanielRichman> Besides, our school is right next to a hospital - you go out the door and you're at A&E
[13:14] <Randomskk> perfect :P
[13:15] <Randomskk> our technology stuff was generally much less exciting, but then we did "systems and control technology" rather than "electronics"
[13:15] <Randomskk> it's some shitty mix of the boring parts of d&t and the boring parts of electronics
[13:16] <DanielRichman> We're only slightly better off. The Wood and Metal workshop is hilarious, but the "Electronics" course is actually an "Electronic Products" course
[13:16] <Randomskk> :(
[13:17] <DanielRichman> so basically 30% electronics, 30% making a case and 120% paperwork
[13:17] <Randomskk> why do no schools just do damn straight electronics
[13:17] <Randomskk> we don't do it because "it's too hard so most students wouldn't manage to get a good mark"
[13:17] <Randomskk> systems and control tech is such a dos subject and thus you can get a good mark by gluing together some bits of wood and adding like a 555 timer
[13:18] <DanielRichman> not many people take it
[13:18] <DanielRichman> there's only 3 students in my electronics class
[13:18] <Randomskk> I had 5 people in my final year
[13:18] <DanielRichman> 11 in the year above and 10 in the year below
[13:18] <DanielRichman> and this is GCSE
[13:18] <Randomskk> but we only did that, no option for RM
[13:18] <Randomskk> I think there was RM GCSE, but I did systems and control there too.
[13:18] <Randomskk> more like ten people in GCSE S&C
[13:19] <Randomskk> all of them male :P
[13:19] <Randomskk> I guess you get used to that with engineering, maths, science etc
[13:19] <DanielRichman> I can't make a comparison since it's an single sex school, but I guess that's to be expected
[13:19] <Randomskk> though university isn't as bad, 3:1 male to female ratio
[13:20] <DanielRichman> Overall or in a specific subject?
[13:20] <Randomskk> we just do "Engineering"
[13:20] <Randomskk> 3:1 engineering
[13:20] <DanielRichman> Ah, Ok
[13:20] <Randomskk> if it was electronic engineering it'd be a lot worse
[13:20] <DanielRichman> I've forgotten what most of the CUSF people are reading
[13:20] <Randomskk> Imperial is super proud of having 9:1 for EE
[13:20] <DanielRichman> ha
[13:21] <Randomskk> we do years 1 and 2 of general engineering and then 3 and 4 you specialise
[13:21] <Randomskk> though a lot of CUSF guys are doing other subjects too
[13:21] <Randomskk> phys natsci, compsci, medicine
[13:22] <DanielRichman> any maths?
[13:23] <Randomskk> oh, a few people I saw were doing maths, but I dunno if they're still involved atm
[13:23] <Randomskk> right now every meeting seems to have different people
[13:23] <Randomskk> one person doing compsci and natsci
[13:23] <Randomskk> combo course
[13:23] <DanielRichman> I see
[13:24] <Randomskk> the different people thing is kinda odd. a load of people do turn up to every one, but each one involves some people that I've never seen before and often never see again :P
[13:24] <Laurenceb> my stepdad used to teach d&t
[13:25] <Laurenceb> back about '85 to 95
[13:26] <Laurenceb> he went to art college and came at it more from a art/design point of view
[13:26] <Randomskk> I do miss having access to a workshop now though
[13:26] <Laurenceb> I guess theres the art side to d&t a lot
[13:26] <Randomskk> yea.
[13:26] <Randomskk> case design :P
[13:27] <DanielRichman> Nah, you can make abstract tables
[13:27] <Randomskk> apparently we can access the workshop at CUED but actually doing so seems to involve as much beaurocracy as actual workshop work
[13:27] <Randomskk> I think ed has this covered somehow
[13:28] <DanielRichman> (Momentary topic change:) How do you account for a metal tower when designing the yagi? Or should I just avoid metal towers totally?
[13:29] <gordonjcp> are you mounting the yagi horizontally or vertically?
[13:46] <Laurenceb> this is interesting - apparently you can use chipcon modules to send and receive analogue FM
[13:46] <Laurenceb> so you could send SSTV
[13:50] <Laurenceb> you could get one frame per second at 80x120 grayscale using that camera module from sparkfun
[13:50] <Randomskk> which one?
[13:50] <Randomskk> that'd be pretty neat.
[13:50] <Randomskk> I reckon you could do better than that though, with video compression
[13:51] <Laurenceb> yeah but its not fault tolerant
[13:52] <Randomskk> eh, you can make it fault tolerant
[13:52] <Randomskk> SSTV is hardly fault tolerant, you just end up with missing chunks of the image
[13:52] <SpeedEvil> To quote father Jack.
[13:52] <SpeedEvil> FEC!
[13:53] <Laurenceb> it looks hard to me
[13:53] <Laurenceb> I was thinking analgoue SSTV with digital sync data
[13:53] <Laurenceb> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9334
[13:53] <DanielRichman> gordonjcp, vertically
[13:54] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: ah, that one
[13:54] <Randomskk> $54! they have a $10 one
[13:54] <Laurenceb> sending Jpegs certainly would be demanding
[13:54] <Randomskk> all you lose is the UART transmission :P
[13:54] <Laurenceb> all?
[13:54] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: doesn't that one you linked do JPG anyway
[13:54] <Randomskk> just send the bitstream
[13:54] <Laurenceb> nope
[13:54] <SpeedEvil> JPEG requires error-free
[13:54] <Laurenceb> that would be way slower
[13:54] <Laurenceb> and need FEC packetisation
[13:55] <Laurenceb> if you had a linux board you could do MPEG and packetisation
[13:55] <Randomskk> or an FPGA
[13:55] <Laurenceb> but I suspect analogue SSTV would be the easiest and fastest
[13:55] <Laurenceb> tho you would have a noisy image
[13:56] <Randomskk> I still want to see how good a signal you could get with a big ground dish on 2.4ghz, seriously increased datarates
[13:57] <Laurenceb> yeah I looked at it
[13:58] <Laurenceb> in fact its been down
[13:58] <Laurenceb> *done
[13:58] <Laurenceb> using 100mw transmitter module and a large dish (few meters)
[13:58] <Randomskk> what's the limit on power at 2.4ghz here?
[13:59] <Randomskk> 20dB apparently (20dBwhat?)
[13:59] <gordonjcp> 20dBm
[13:59] <gordonjcp> iirc
[13:59] <gordonjcp> well, for non-licensed operation
[13:59] <Randomskk> so that's 100mW right there
[13:59] <gordonjcp> Laurenceb: you'd be surprised how well analogue sstv degrades
[13:59] <Randomskk> could stream video over that
[14:00] <Randomskk> with sufficient datarates
[14:00] <Randomskk> more reasonably, send decent sized jpgs
[14:02] <gordonjcp> I run about 46dBm ERP on my "big" wifi link
[14:03] <Randomskk> heh
[14:07] <Laurenceb> this was in australia
[14:09] edmoore (i=836f0142@gateway/web/freenode/x-xakspqptzjrxenkv) joined #highaltitude.
[14:16] <edmoore> afternoon all
[14:17] <Randomskk> yo
[14:21] <edmoore> Randomskk: been to ML&S?
[14:21] <edmoore> they have good stock, but heed my advice
[14:22] <edmoore> they will try and seel you stuff that you "definitely want" but that you actually don't at all
[14:22] <Randomskk> should be heading down at about 3
[14:22] <Randomskk> haha yup
[14:22] <edmoore> they'll say 'oh we don't have that mag mount but we've got this one, so there you go, I'll put it in a bag for you. what else?" and the replacement want till be £60 rather than £25
[14:23] <edmoore> be strong
[14:23] <Randomskk> niice
[14:23] <Randomskk> plan is to get 25m of rg58cx coax and three or four pl259 plugs
[14:24] <Randomskk> shame I can't order online and pick up there, really :P
[14:24] <edmoore> it's good to have some PL259 to BNCs lying around
[14:24] <Randomskk> the adaptors or the cables?
[14:24] <Randomskk> and which gender?
[14:24] <edmoore> adaptors
[14:25] <Randomskk> so what, a couple of BNC female to PL259, and a couple of BNC male to SO239?
[14:25] <edmoore> i can't forsee why you would generally need the latter
[14:26] <Randomskk> what do I need the former for?
[14:26] <edmoore> almost all things go on the aplliance, so you want to keep the applance genrder, which is usually female
[14:27] <Randomskk> so for things like antennas that come with bnc and I want to plug into my ic7000?
[14:27] <edmoore> so for exaple to plug in a BNC yagi to your IC 7000, you want a PL259 to BNC female, as the antenna is almost always male
[14:28] <gordonjcp> just stick the right kind of plug on the end of the aerial cable
[14:28] <edmoore> i've not yet had the need for something the other way round
[14:28] <gordonjcp> and avoid PL259/SO239 above 30MHz
[14:28] <Randomskk> edmoore: fair enough
[14:28] <Randomskk> gordonjcp: really? my radio's got so239 for the vhf/uhf antenna, and my antenna is pl259
[14:29] <gordonjcp> Randomskk: they're *terrible* at high frequencies
[14:29] <gordonjcp> I know they're *called* UHF connectors, but that was when 30MHz was considered UHF
[14:30] <Randomskk> nah, I mean its antenna socket for operations >60MHz is so239
[14:31] <edmoore> you're stuck with it. just get the appropriate adaptor to let you plug BNCs into your IC-7000 and you'll be fine with the great majoority of all the kit we have
[14:31] <Randomskk> okay
[14:32] <edmoore> gordonjcp: on that interesting point though, if you could start again from scrach, what is the best connector for UHF applications up to say 50W?
[14:32] <gordonjcp> N connectors
[14:32] <SpeedEvil> Soldered coax.
[14:32] <gordonjcp> that's what we use up to about 50W
[14:32] <edmoore> ok. that's actually what our YAGI is terminated with
[14:32] <edmoore> we had to get a N to SO239 adaptor :)
[14:33] <gordonjcp> we use N connectors and RG213 for pretty much everything, VHF and UHF
[14:33] <gordonjcp> although some very old kit uses SO239s even at UHF - hello, Motorola Compact Base Station
[14:34] <Randomskk> gordonjcp: icom ic7000s :P
[14:34] <gordonjcp> although personally I'd be inclined to rebuild it with Ns
[14:34] <edmoore> ok, so for our UHF yagi stack we should do everything with Ns
[14:34] <edmoore> duly noted
[14:35] <edmoore> Randomskk: we're getting an Aoyue pre-heat station btw
[14:35] <edmoore> should be a useful addition
[14:35] <Randomskk> :o nice
[14:36] <edmoore> would have been useful over the summer for sure
[14:37] <Randomskk> I can imagine
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[14:48] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-Sys8LiQNE
[14:49] <Randomskk> haha wow
[14:53] <edmoore> right, am off to lond. see you chapses later
[14:53] <Randomskk> seeya
[14:56] <DanielRichman> What's the standard price of RG58?
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[14:58] <RocketBoy|Away> £30 for a 100m roll
[14:59] Nick change: RocketBoy|Away -> RocketBoy
[14:59] <Randomskk> £50/100m at ML&S :(
[15:02] <DanielRichman>  thanks
[15:02] <Laurenceb> http://www.lingscars.com/
[15:02] <Laurenceb> so bad
[15:04] <RocketBoy> how much do you need?
[15:05] <RocketBoy> I have a load of approx. 5m lengths with BNC connectors on them
[15:08] <DanielRichman> RocketBoy, I'll be buying a long length piece to connect a roof-antenna to my room, but thanks for the offor
[15:10] <RocketBoy> if its that long (>> 5m) id suggest better co-ax or a pre-amp on 70cms
[15:11] <RocketBoy> RG58 has about 3db loss per 10m on 434MHz
[15:12] <RocketBoy> http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm
[15:13] <DanielRichman> hmm okey
[15:14] <DanielRichman> bbl
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[15:24] <gordonjcp> yeah
[15:24] <gordonjcp> don't use RG58 for long runs at 70cm
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[15:25] <gordonjcp> also, don't buy stuff like that from ML&S etc, get friendly with your local PMR companies
[15:25] <jcoxon> afternoon all
[15:25] <Randomskk> heya
[15:25] <gordonjcp> it's a shame you're not based in Glasgow, put it that way ;-)
[15:26] <jcoxon> gordonjcp, he probably wouldn't pick up the balloon from there :-p
[15:26] <jcoxon> damn - noaa is still down
[15:45] <jcoxon> really want to run some predictions
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0snTqLQLpBA
[15:48] <jcoxon> hehe
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> Not strictly on topic - looks like very mad fun for tropical climates though.
[15:55] <jcoxon> i hate the way that if something breaks on a saturday morning it won't get fixed till monday
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[16:08] <jcoxon> anyone around?
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[16:14] <jcoxon> yay NOAA is back online
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[16:24] <jcoxon> i think space blanket on the outside of payloads should be compulsary
[16:24] <jcoxon> it looks so much cooler even if its messy (like mine)
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[16:57] Action: G8KHW-2 grrrrrrrrr DSL keeps dropping out
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[17:35] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, ping
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[17:38] <jcoxon> G8KHW-2, ping
[17:39] <G8KHW-2> yo
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[17:39] <jcoxon> just working out where to run the dumped ballast
[17:39] <jcoxon> if liquid got onto the antenna would that be a bad thing?
[17:39] <RocketBoy> methanol?
[17:40] <jcoxon> ethanol/methanol
[17:40] <RocketBoy> I doubt that it would affect things much
[17:41] <jcoxon> okay - i'll stick it out the side - its a pump anyway
[17:42] <RocketBoy> yeah - i'd keep it out of the way but i don't think there would be too much probelm if it got "wet"
[17:42] <jcoxon> fair enough
[18:02] <RocketBoy> I guess to have tried Polystyrene vs ethanol/methanol for Solubility?
[18:03] <jcoxon> it takes a few days
[18:04] <jcoxon> probably up to a week
[18:05] <RocketBoy> ah ok - we can't have the bottom being disolved away
[18:05] <jcoxon> very true
[18:05] <jcoxon> yeah i tested a couple of things
[18:05] <jcoxon> it doesn't touch hot glue
[18:10] <RocketBoy> cool ;-)
[18:11] <RocketBoy> I gotta say I'm pretty impressed with the whole thing
[18:12] <jcoxon> hehe - i'm so scared it'll die in the first km
[18:12] <jcoxon> its become quite complicated
[18:12] <jcoxon> though i've tried to be as sensible as possible and haven't cut corners
[18:13] <RocketBoy> well it has to be kind of complex by nature
[18:15] <RocketBoy> unfortunatly it oesn't look like I'll be able to add too much to the tracking - too far away
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[18:15] <jcoxon> yeah an odd flight path
[18:16] <jcoxon> though might be an opportunity to test maximum range
[18:16] <RocketBoy> yeah
[18:17] <RocketBoy> i will give it my best shot
[18:17] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, have you ever used global tuners?
[18:17] <jcoxon> globaltuners*
[18:18] <jcoxon> online radios
[18:18] <jcoxon> there are a few in the south of england that could well be used
[18:18] <jcoxon> you just need to pipe back the data into dl-fldigi
[18:18] <RocketBoy> only websdr
[18:19] <jcoxon> i used globaltuners to get telemetry from the PBH trans-a flights
[18:19] <RocketBoy> I'll give it a try
[18:29] <RocketBoy> may even be able to track from work then
[18:31] <jcoxon> on my mac i used something called soundflower to direct the output to input without the need for a cable
[18:31] <jcoxon> not sure if the same exists on windows
[18:36] <RocketBoy> yeah tis strange - i coul do it on my old (win 2000) laptop - but not on my newer vista laptop (not that I have found anyway)
[18:47] <jcoxon> right bbl
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[19:03] Action: Laurenceb is trying to install an exe with wine
[19:03] <Randomskk> okay
[19:03] <Laurenceb> do I need a virtual C drive?
[19:03] <Randomskk> all I could find was some threaded rods
[19:03] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: wine has one already
[19:03] <Laurenceb> I'm not sure if its setup
[19:03] <Randomskk> ~/.wine/drive_c
[19:03] <Laurenceb> hmm it didnt work
[19:04] <Randomskk> how vital is it that the driven element be folded?
[19:05] <Randomskk> I haven't yet found any suitable metal stock that can be folded, Focus DIY and Homebase were both pretty poor in that department
[19:05] <Randomskk> I did get some plastic pipe/conduit that should work for the boom
[19:06] <Randomskk> but all I could find in the way of elements was M8 threaded rods, six of them 500mm long each
[19:06] <Randomskk> they only had six sadly
[19:06] <Laurenceb> http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/folders/print/smartrftm-studio.html
[19:06] <Laurenceb> I'nm trying to run that on my ubuntu machine
[19:06] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: try a metal place
[19:06] Nick change: RocketBoy -> RocketBoy|Away
[19:06] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: not sure of any nearby
[19:06] <Laurenceb> yellow pages
[19:06] <Laurenceb> or googel maps
[19:07] <Randomskk> also no car
[19:08] <Laurenceb> ok this is odd
[19:08] <Laurenceb> the installer thing loaded by wine is looking in my windows partition
[19:08] <Laurenceb> I dont see how thats possible
[19:08] <Randomskk> well it can look anywhere
[19:08] <Randomskk> / on down
[19:09] <Randomskk> but it shoudl also have a C: which maps to ~/.wine/drive_c
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[19:09] <Laurenceb> is there a way to configure that?
[19:09] <Laurenceb> the folder exists...
[19:09] Action: Laurenceb doesnt know what to do
[19:09] <Randomskk> not that I know of but I've never had an issue with it
[19:10] <Randomskk> downloading it
[19:11] <Laurenceb> I cant seem to stop it giving me only my windows partition
[19:12] <Randomskk> if I just next through it seems to work?
[19:12] <Randomskk> getting any error?
[19:12] <Laurenceb> yeah it fails
[19:12] <Randomskk> it just wants C:\Program Files\Texas Instruments
[19:13] <Laurenceb> yeah, and sees that as on my other partition
[19:14] <Randomskk> :/
[19:14] <Randomskk> try winecfg
[19:14] <Randomskk> make sure it all looks correct
[19:15] <Randomskk> crickey, a new person on the repeater
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[19:18] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, what's the exact error?
[19:18] <Laurenceb> sbasuita: the installer says it was interrupted
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[19:23] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, use winecfg to configure the virtual drives
[19:23] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, so i would get rid of wine programs having access to / and /home
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[19:47] <Randomskk> ffffffffff
[19:47] <Randomskk> I get the pl259 plug soldered on and the shield is shorted to the centre pin
[19:48] <Randomskk> yayay
[19:52] <gordonjcp> yeah
[19:52] <gordonjcp> pl259s suck
[19:52] <gordonjcp> don't use them
[19:56] <sjrandall> yeah - I hate them too - OK for just about OK for 2m if you must
[20:02] <sjrandall> its unexpectedly naff that the IC-7000 uses a SO239 for both HF and VHF/UHF
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[20:11] <gordonjcp> fail
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[20:31] <Laurenceb> http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/folders/print/smartrftm-studio.html
[20:31] <Laurenceb> can anyone get that to run on ubuntu?
[20:31] <Laurenceb> I'm getting an error with usbuart3410.inf and it wont run
[20:31] <Laurenceb> even tho it installs
[20:31] <Laurenceb> - error at install time
[20:32] <Randomskk> I get that at install time but it still ran
[20:32] <Randomskk> dunno if it'l actually /work/ of course
[20:33] <Laurenceb> doesnt matter
[20:33] <Laurenceb> you can export hex files
[20:33] <Laurenceb> it wont run for me
[20:33] <Laurenceb> I get starting on the task bar, then nothing
[20:34] <Laurenceb> then again - same for ucenter
[20:34] <Laurenceb> which used to run :-/
[20:34] <Randomskk> run from console with wine
[20:37] <Laurenceb> err:module:import_dll Library MFC42.DLL (which is needed by L"C:\\Program Files\\Texas Instruments\\SmartRF Studio\\SmartRF Studio.exe") not found
[20:38] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, so get the dll I guess
[20:38] <Randomskk> yaay pl259 soldered okay this time around
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[20:38] <Laurenceb> where put it?
[20:38] <Randomskk> anywhere on windows path
[20:38] <Randomskk> so . or system32 or such
[20:39] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, /home/ssb/.wine/drive_c/windows/system32/
[20:39] <sbasuita> oh, ok Randomskk
[20:39] <Randomskk> or yea, where sbasuita said
[20:41] <Laurenceb> still dies
[20:41] <Randomskk> same error?
[20:42] <Laurenceb> Unhandled exception: unimplemented function MFC42.DLL.6779 called in 32-bit code (0x7bc4569c).
[20:43] <Laurenceb> hmm I used an old version
[20:45] <Randomskk> so yea, yagi, how dire is it to not have a folded dipole
[20:45] <Randomskk> I could probably pull off a dipole with another bit on top and just connected at the ends or something
[20:45] <Randomskk> but there's no way this stock would bend and even if it could it's not long enough
[20:45] <sjrandall> not at all - its fine if its well matched
[20:45] <Randomskk> is impedance the only issue?
[20:46] <Randomskk> is it that big a deal if I'm not driving it? it's just for rx (at the moment at least)
[20:46] <sjrandall> that and balance
[20:46] <sjrandall> depends how bad the match is
[20:46] <Laurenceb> wine: Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x00000000 at address 0x10005d74 (thread 0032), starting debugger...
[20:46] <Laurenceb> bah
[20:47] <sjrandall> are you taking a folded dipole design and just replacing it with a dipole
[20:47] <sjrandall> ?
[20:47] <Randomskk> kind of yes
[20:47] <Randomskk> this calculator appears to be designing for a folded dipole
[20:48] <sjrandall> what program is that?
[20:48] <Randomskk> VK5DJ's DL6WU Yagi Calculator
[20:49] <sjrandall> anyway - yes if its designed for a folded and your replacing it with a normal dipole it'll be quite mismatched
[20:49] <Randomskk> I can do essentially a rectanglular one
[20:49] <Randomskk> like one long element parallel to the dipole and connected at the ends
[20:49] <Randomskk> (does it even need to be connected at the ends?)
[20:49] <Randomskk> but I imagine that's not as good
[20:49] <sjrandall> yes it needs to be connected at the ends
[20:50] <sjrandall> but you could make it that way
[20:50] <Randomskk> I can connect it at the ends, but only with some thick wire, not with the same stuff
[20:50] <Randomskk> but it is pretty thick wire
[20:50] <sjrandall> and this is threaded steel?
[20:51] <Randomskk> yea
[20:51] <Randomskk> well I assume it's steel
[20:51] <Randomskk> it's zinc plated "threaded rods"
[20:51] <sjrandall> I got to say that would not be my 1st choice for making a yagi
[20:51] <Randomskk> can't imagine it'd be anything else though, certainly too heavy for alu
[20:51] <Randomskk> yea, it wasn't what I was hoping for
[20:51] <sjrandall> in fact it would be my last choice
[20:51] <Randomskk> but I couldn't find anything more appropriate
[20:52] <Randomskk> these were the only things that involved relatively long and somewhat thin straight bits of metal
[20:52] <sjrandall> aluminium?
[20:52] <Randomskk> they had copper tubing but that was like 25mm diameter
[20:52] <Randomskk> didn't see any sticks of alu
[20:52] <sjrandall> Homebase?
[20:52] <Randomskk> homebase and focus DIY
[20:52] <Randomskk> focus had nothing useful at all
[20:53] <Randomskk> homebase had these things
[20:53] <sjrandall> got a B&Q?
[20:53] <Randomskk> not very close, but there is one
[20:53] <Randomskk> does the threading have an effect? :P
[20:54] <sjrandall> they normally carry all you need - ali tube/rod - square section tube ...
[20:54] <Randomskk> that'd be fantastic
[20:55] <sjrandall> I expect a yagi made of studding would work but just how much worse it would be I don't know
[20:55] <Randomskk> and at most 5 directors, assuming I have a dipole without any extra bits
[20:55] <Randomskk> otherwise 4 directors
[20:59] <sjrandall> B&Q also carry brass rod - which makes connecting to the dipole easier (solder)
[21:00] <Randomskk> oooh they are open sunday
[21:00] <Randomskk> miight possibly be able to get down there tomorrow
[21:02] <Randomskk> no car from monday onwards and I need it by monday evening so online delivery isn't an option
[21:02] <Randomskk> what would be the ideal materials to make it out of? i got some PVC tube for the boom but I'm not sure if metal's a better choice or what
[21:03] <Randomskk> cool I can reserve and collect apparently
[21:04] <Randomskk> right, they have alu and brass rods, the alu comes anodised or raw, 4, 6, 8, 10mm diameter
[21:04] <Randomskk> and brass 4, 6, 8
[21:05] <Randomskk> you reckon a brass dipole (plus I guess I can fold that) and alu reflector/directors?
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[21:06] <sjrandall> sure
[21:07] <Randomskk> and for the boom?
[21:08] <sjrandall> well that depends - if the yagi calculator adjusts for it use ali - otherwise plastic
[21:08] <sjrandall> a metal boom makes a difference to the element lengths
[21:09] <sjrandall> most yagi calculators adjust for it - normally you enter the metal boom type (square/round) and its size
[21:12] <Randomskk> yea, it can be told to use metal or non-metal
[21:12] <Randomskk> is there any advantage to using metal?
[21:13] <sjrandall> no I don't think so other than durability/strength
[21:13] <sjrandall> plastic can be a bit droopy
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[23:07] <MikeMc> evening
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[00:00] --- Sun Dec 13 2009