highaltitude.log.20091208

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[00:46] <juxta> Hi all
[00:46] <juxta> (if anybody's still up)
[00:48] <Randomskk> hi
[00:48] <Randomskk> woo, did my full license test today
[00:48] <Randomskk> and the ic7000 is now ordered! and I'm home at last! yay
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:49] <juxta> well done Randomskk
[00:49] <juxta> radio license that is?
[00:49] <Randomskk> yea
[00:49] <Randomskk> now I just wait for ages for them to mark it :p
[00:49] <juxta> hehe
[00:49] <juxta> I need to sit for mine
[00:49] <Randomskk> multiple choice with about 60% pass mark, you wouldn't have thought it'd be difficult to mark
[00:50] <juxta> no, not really, haha
[00:51] <juxta> sorry to hear about the test SpeedEvil, though I'm sure that even without a license you're better than half of the idiots who somehow get their licenses here :)
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> :/
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> Dunno anything about the test in australia.
[00:52] <juxta> I remember nerves were a problem for me too, i'm sure you'll get it OK
[00:52] Action: SpeedEvil imagines something fun with kangaroos and drop-bears.
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> not nerves
[00:52] <juxta> haha
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> just exhausted
[00:52] <juxta> ahh
[00:53] <juxta> well that wouldnt help :(
[00:53] <SpeedEvil> banging, hammering, lifting
[00:53] <juxta> well, the fact that you fixed your brake puts you ahead of 99% of the Australian population
[00:54] <juxta> who either couldnt be bothered or wouldnt care
[00:54] <SpeedEvil> yeah - well - it was starting to smell.
[00:55] <juxta> hehe
[00:55] <SpeedEvil> Need to strip the caliper, which will probably be annoying
[00:55] <juxta> do you guys have mandatory safety inspections overe there?
[00:55] <SpeedEvil> yes
[00:55] <juxta> I know a lot of EU countries have 3-yearly inspections, that sort of thing
[00:55] <SpeedEvil> yearly inspection of the most obvious failure points.
[00:55] <juxta> we have nothing like that here
[00:55] <SpeedEvil> germany for one is insanely tighter
[00:56] <juxta> you can leave a car in your shed for 25 years, register it on the internet, and you're allowed to drive it
[00:56] <juxta> unless you get caught, or cause an accident (the latter being more common)
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[00:57] <SpeedEvil> Alas, it's to become an offence to have a licensed but not insured car locked in your garage.
[00:58] <SpeedEvil> Insane.
[00:58] <juxta> wow - just having a licensed but not insured car is an offence? :|
[00:58] <SpeedEvil> This is a measure to make it a database searchable offence to have a licensed uninsured car on the road.
[00:59] <SpeedEvil> So they can simply see you have no insurance, and a licensed car, and send you a fine.
[00:59] <juxta> I suppose your insurance might be a little different to ours - does insurance in the UK cover bodily harm? or is that covered in your license/registration?
[00:59] <SpeedEvil> Which is annoying, as I wanted to keep car in garage most of the month, using it a couple of days, and insuring it on that day.
[00:59] <SpeedEvil> The license is merely the sticker that lets you drive on the road
[01:00] <juxta> ah
[01:00] <juxta> here it's perfectly legal to drive an uninsured car, so long as it's registered - the registration has a bodily harm insurance component
[01:00] <SpeedEvil> So this measure will end up costing me ~200 pounds/year
[01:00] <Randomskk> omg my internet is piss poor here
[01:01] <juxta> registration alone is $650/year here for a 4 cylinder
[01:01] <Randomskk> I mis cambridge already :(
[01:01] <Randomskk> ha, I was in another channel and typed that but it'd changed to here before sending, fantastic latency
[01:02] <juxta> are you using dialup or something Randomskk? ;p
[01:02] <Randomskk> it's meant to be adsl
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[01:02] <Randomskk> I think they moved the wireless router downstairs
[01:02] <SpeedEvil> juxta: only 100 quid/year or so here- but that has no insurance
[01:03] <juxta> SpeedEvil: so does insurance cover you for damage to other peoples cars or your own in an accident? or does it depend on the level of cover you take out?
[01:03] <SpeedEvil> juxta: yes. you have to have insurance covering you against damage to other vehicles to have the vehicle on the road legally.
[01:04] <juxta> ah, right
[01:04] <juxta> not so here
[01:04] <juxta> plenty of uninsured drivers
[01:04] <SpeedEvil> juxta: but cover for fire/theft/your own vehicle damage is optional
[01:04] <juxta> here my registration covers in case I mow down a crowd of people, my insurance covers me for damage to third party property and (optionally) my own car
[01:05] <SpeedEvil> third party property is required here
[01:05] <juxta> that's a good idea
[01:05] <juxta> wish it was so here
[01:05] <SpeedEvil> Well - not strictly required - you can post a bond of I think 5 million.
[01:05] <juxta> oh, no hassles there
[01:06] <juxta> will keep it aside rather than paying insurance ;p
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[01:06] <juxta> SpeedEvil: is there a minimum time period before you can re-sit your test?
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> juxta: In theory 10 days - in practice it depends on the fucking insane booking/queing system
[01:07] <Randomskk> heh, I still have to book my retest
[01:07] <Randomskk> the booking system is a nightmare
[01:07] <juxta> similar to here then, I flunked my test by not showing up at the right time, I had to wait a few weeks to resit it
[01:08] <juxta> do you have to go through some central organisation to sit the test?
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> juxta: yes
[01:08] <juxta> here we can just find any old driving instructor (private enterprise) and have them test us, not exactly consistent/reliable
[01:09] <juxta> what's the driving age over there, by the way?
[01:10] <SpeedEvil> 16
[01:10] <juxta> more or less the same here
[01:10] <juxta> I think moves are afoot to raise the age though
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[01:13] <juxta> damn kaymont still haven't sent me my balloons, and they charged me $60USD more for shipping than they quoted, arghh
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[12:32] <rjharrison> wow
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[12:32] <rjharrison> Big boot
[12:32] <rjharrison> Looks like the server is in a mess
[12:32] <rjharrison> Recovery poles have arrived today :)
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[12:47] <SpeedEvil> Damn poles. Coming over here, taking our payloads.
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[14:10] <jcoxon> afternoon all
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[14:32] <rjharrison> Hey jcoxon
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[14:32] <rjharrison> Hi AlexBreton
[14:33] <jcoxon> hey rjharrison
[14:35] <rjharrison> jcoxon I guess you're playing with your balast tanks
[14:36] <jcoxon> not right now
[14:36] <jcoxon> but have been
[14:36] <rjharrison> When I get 5 I'll post some video of playing with poles in trees.
[14:37] <jcoxon> hehe
[14:37] <rjharrison> It would be great for using as an moble antenna mount too
[14:37] <rjharrison> Not for HAB but for the local repeater
[14:38] <jcoxon> the beast...
[14:38] <jcoxon> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/4166863353/in/set-72157621083447545/
[14:38] <rjharrison> wow nice
[14:39] <rjharrison> I like the macs in the BG
[14:39] <rjharrison> Does the black container go through the whole payload?
[14:39] <jcoxon> missing the middle mac
[14:39] <jcoxon> yes
[14:39] <jcoxon> it sits on top of hte pump
[14:39] <jcoxon> to balance the payload out
[14:39] <jcoxon> (this still needs to have walls and a roof built up
[14:39] <rjharrison> Weight?
[14:40] <jcoxon> prob 1kg total
[14:40] <rjharrison> hehe
[14:40] <rjharrison> is that in balast
[14:40] <rjharrison> including
[14:40] <jcoxon> with ballast
[14:40] <rjharrison> ok so .5 kg dumpe
[14:40] <rjharrison> d
[14:40] <jcoxon> its teh pump that add the weight
[14:40] <rjharrison> yeop
[14:40] <jcoxon> perhaps 1.2kg actually
[14:40] <jcoxon> need to weigh it when finished
[14:41] <rjharrison> Not too bad including the balast
[14:41] <jcoxon> could be a lot lighter
[14:41] <jcoxon> but i've gone for reliablilty instead
[14:41] <rjharrison> can it be scaled up to say 5kg with out adding much to the weight? Save balast
[14:42] <rjharrison> ballast even :)
[14:42] <jcoxon> so big pump and lots of insulation
[14:42] <jcoxon> oh yeah in theory
[14:42] <jcoxon> the pump could handle 5kg of ballast
[14:42] <rjharrison> The container is quite light, what is it made of
[14:43] <jcoxon> its a waterbottle from tescos :-p
[14:43] <rjharrison> The black bit?
[14:43] <rjharrison> Hve you painted it?
[14:43] <rjharrison> Nice hot knife work
[14:44] <jcoxon> yeah its black
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[15:06] <Daviey> Is this for the float?
[15:13] <jcoxon> Daviey, its a payload to test ballast tanks at altitude
[15:16] <Daviey> jcoxon: oh cool.
[15:16] <jcoxon> whether it'll work is another matter :-p
[15:17] <Daviey> jcoxon: you know it needs a condenser to refill the ballast tanks from moisture in the air, right? :)
[15:18] <russss> heh
[15:23] <jcoxon> Daviey, hehe not sure how much ethanol/methanol i'll extract :-p
[15:24] <russss> jcoxon: when are you thinking of flying it?
[15:24] <Laurenceb> fly over a city center on saturday night and you will
[15:24] <Laurenceb> try russian city for methanol
[15:24] <jcoxon> ?sunday
[15:24] <russss> not sure if I can throw together an antenna by then ;)
[15:24] <jcoxon> you and your antenna
[15:25] <russss> I need to find some F connectors. That shouldn't be too hard.
[15:26] <Laurenceb> Daviey: the "standard" way to do ballast free long duration is superpressure
[15:27] <Laurenceb> but very few people have done it, especially with small balloons
[15:27] <Laurenceb> NOAA/NASA experimented with some small superpressure (~2Kg) balloons using iridium for comms a few years ago
[15:28] <Laurenceb> CNES have expermiented with ballast free long duration zero pressure - using infra red emission from the earth to heat the envelope
[15:28] <Laurenceb> they got 90 days flight time IIRC
[15:29] <Laurenceb> three circumnavigations
[15:31] <Laurenceb> most of the crazy long duration (several months routinely) ballasted zero pressure stuff is done over the Antarctic in the Antarctic vortex - much much more stable tmeprature and solar/IR flux onto the envelope
[15:32] <Laurenceb> but anyway we're going for small zero pressure with ballast as its the most practical way to fly for a few days with a small balloon :D
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> No it's not.
[15:33] Action: SpeedEvil passes Laurenceb a teeny balloon on a string.
[15:42] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:42] <Laurenceb> gtg
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[16:03] <SpeedEvil> Is it me, or does this guy look creepy.
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> http://email.asda.com/imgproxy/img/809431448/1.jpg
[16:08] <jcoxon> its not you
[16:08] <jcoxon> he is creepy
[16:08] <jcoxon> bbl
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[17:07] <AlexBreton> wat happened?
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[19:21] <MikeMc> evening all
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[19:43] <Laurenceb> sup
[19:54] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: that magno you linked is pretty good
[19:54] <Laurenceb> the self calibration is handy
[19:54] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: what have you got magnetometer wise?
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> yeah - digital is nice too
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[20:01] <Laurenceb> power supply is slightly annoying
[20:03] <SpeedEvil> ?
[20:03] <SpeedEvil> not read
[20:04] <SpeedEvil> I thought it was simply 1.8-2.5 with a biggish cap
[20:10] <Laurenceb> yeah
[20:11] <Laurenceb> up to 3.3V, there is an internal 1.8v reg, and the i2c is 3.3v tolerant
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> why is it annoying?
[20:11] <Laurenceb> but 3.3v is the upper limit, so youd really need to supply 3v
[20:11] <Laurenceb> which is why its annoying
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> ah
[20:11] <Laurenceb> as ideally you want to run the uC at 3.3v
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> I really want to install one in my phone
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> but - ...
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> I don't think accidental damage cover would cover it
[20:12] <Laurenceb> I wonder if you could tweak the I2C somehow
[20:12] <Laurenceb> oh I know
[20:13] <Laurenceb> theres internal pullups in the magno to 3v, so your uC shouldnt mind
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[20:13] <Laurenceb> it will see 0 to 3v on the bus, not 0 to 3.3
[20:14] <Laurenceb> no problems then, just need a low drop out 3v reg, which will isolate noise anyway
[20:16] <Laurenceb> page 6 in the datasheet
[20:17] <Laurenceb> which is odd as 3.3v is the maximum supply in the specs
[20:17] <SpeedEvil> maximum, or absolute maximum?
[20:17] <Laurenceb> they arent very clear, maybe they allowed tolerances
[20:18] <Laurenceb> it seems to indicate 3.3v designs are fine, so absolute maximum must be higher that 3.3
[20:21] Action: Laurenceb wants a board with magno, dual and single axis gyro, accel, ARM7, UBX-G6010 gps, chipcon radio
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[20:22] <Laurenceb> that would be awsome
[20:22] <Laurenceb> http://www.u-blox.com/en/gps-chips/877-ubx-g6010.html
[20:22] <Laurenceb> just when I get my hands on a G5010 receiver, G6010 comes out :-/
[20:23] <Laurenceb> annoying thing is you need a NDA to get the pinout
[20:23] <Laurenceb> YUMA ready; u-blox revolutionary Capture & Process technology for instant location capture
[20:24] <Laurenceb> that sounds sensible, also ublox5 power consumption kind of sucked a bit
[20:30] <SpeedEvil> It's nice that the magnetometer and gyro portions are coming own a bit in cost
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> It wasn't that long ago they were three times the price
[20:32] <Laurenceb> yeah phones are starting to use magnetometers, and gyros for image stabilisation
[20:33] <Laurenceb> - in cameras mostly AIUI
[20:36] <Laurenceb> aha http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/folders/print/cc1100emk-433.html
[20:36] <Laurenceb> overpriced but its the first in stock chipcon module I've found
[20:37] <Laurenceb> all this kit seems to be out of stock http://www.adaptivemodules.co.uk/index.cfm/fa/shop/Category_ID/12/Sub_Category_ID/73
[20:39] <Laurenceb> I think they were worried about OFCOM moaning - spoke on the phone to them
[20:39] <rjharrison_> .
[20:42] <Laurenceb> 2 CC1100 433 MHz evaluation modules, 2 Antennas - ok perhaps not that poor value for money
[20:42] <Laurenceb> just add yagi and balloon :D
[20:45] <natrium42> yogi? http://www.atomicpopcorn.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Yogi-Bear-Cropped-12-11-05.JPG
[21:10] <Laurenceb> the CC1020 is actually better- -118dBm @ 1.2kbps
[21:11] <Laurenceb> 600Km range :D
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[22:01] <Laurenceb> http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/folders/print/cc1020emk-433.html
[22:03] Nick change: ms7821_ -> ms7821
[22:07] <Laurenceb> sucks that they charge more for it
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[22:10] <SpeedEvil> :/
[22:11] <Laurenceb> also doesnt show a ship date - I emaild them
[22:12] <Laurenceb> still 600Km range with 1.2kbps @10^-3 BER is worth it
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> what's the eirp?
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> err - output power
[22:13] <Laurenceb> basically I need to get some code working for the IC and check it really does give the performance, then think about a proper board, as farnell have the ICs for £4
[22:13] <Laurenceb> 10mw
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> That's not far off what we're getting at 50bps with proper recievers
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> nice
[22:15] <Laurenceb> -118 dBm sensitivity, then I assumed a 12dBi yagi and 1dBi ant on the balloon and added in 2dB of other attenuation
[22:16] <MikeMc> hi guys
[22:16] <MikeMc> quick question
[22:16] <MikeMc> to get over 100k feet how much helium is required?
[22:16] <Laurenceb> depends entirely on the mass of the balloon
[22:16] <MikeMc> what's typical?
[22:17] <Laurenceb> approx 1Kg per cubic meter lift
[22:17] <Laurenceb> so we typically use small cylinders from balloon shops
[22:18] <MikeMc> so does that mean you use 1kg of helium?
[22:19] <Laurenceb> 1 cubic meter
[22:20] <Laurenceb> which weighs 1Kg less than 1M^3 of air
[22:21] <MikeMc> so for a typical flight you would use 1 cubic meter of helium? That's all?
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[22:23] <Laurenceb> natrium42: did you use a Ti eval switching supply eval board on one of your payloads?
[22:23] <natrium42> yes
[22:24] <Laurenceb> got a link?
[22:24] <Laurenceb> did you buy direct from Ti site?
[22:24] <natrium42> digikey
[22:25] <Laurenceb> ah
[22:25] <Laurenceb> they charge more
[22:25] <natrium42> i wouldn't use the ones i flew though
[22:25] <Laurenceb> why not
[22:26] <natrium42> they draw too much current if the load is light
[22:26] <natrium42> so you can't implement power saving modes
[22:26] <Laurenceb> interesting
[22:27] <Laurenceb> which one was it?
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[22:29] <Laurenceb> :-/
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[22:31] <natrium42> had to kill X
[22:31] <natrium42> i flew PTH something
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[22:33] <Laurenceb> ah I see
[22:33] <Laurenceb> thanks
[22:33] <natrium42> my memory sucks :S
[22:34] <Laurenceb> like so http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pth08080w.html
[22:35] <natrium42> yes
[22:35] <natrium42> i used this one on halo3
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[22:45] <ssapphiree> wow, so many people! cool :)) hi all
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> hi
[22:48] <natrium42> hi
[22:50] <gordonjcp> hello
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[23:20] <Laurenceb> natrium42: yeah efficiency drops right off at low currents
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[23:31] <MikeMc> hi ssapphiree
[23:33] <Laurenceb> http://www.virtualvillage.co.uk/dc-dc-converter-isolated-power-supply-008030-009.html would be a better choise
[23:33] <Laurenceb> *choice
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[23:45] Action: Laurenceb has just realised you can now make an entire IMU/flight computer/GPS/comms/power supply board 1inch square
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[00:00] --- Wed Dec 9 2009