highaltitude.log.20091203

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[06:00] <edmoore> morning all
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[07:21] <jcoxon> morning all
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[08:45] <juxta> morning jcoxon
[08:46] <jcoxon> good morning juxta
[08:46] <jcoxon> morning doug
[08:46] <jcoxon> djellison,
[08:47] Action: juxta is eagerly awaiting this launch
[08:48] <djellison> GOOOOd morning.
[08:48] <jcoxon> juxta, are you on the UKHAS mailing list?
[08:48] <djellison> Pure chance - I'm at home for the day
[08:48] <russss> meh
[08:48] <jcoxon> djellison, thats good - not sure many people can track today
[08:48] <jcoxon> i've got a presentation to make at 11.30 so will miss most of the flight
[08:49] <djellison> Well - with my Moonraker I think I did fairly well last time, so I'm looking forward to this one
[08:49] <jcoxon> great
[08:49] <jcoxon> you all setup then?
[08:49] <djellison> Got the two Freqs set to VFOa & b... dl-fldigi is in
[08:50] <djellison> I can hear some interf around .525
[08:51] <djellison> Right in the noise, a roughly 1hz pulse
[08:51] <juxta> jcoxon: I am
[08:51] <jcoxon> juxta, cool - am doing a membership drive
[08:51] <jcoxon> just realised that laurence wasn't on the list
[08:52] <juxta> ah righto
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[08:56] <jcoxon> i suspect the launch will be nearer to 10 then 9 :-p
[08:56] <djellison> jc - because of this slight noise on .525, I'm going to start listening on BC_HK at .050
[08:59] <jcoxon> sounds sensible - the signal should drown the noise once at a fair altitude
[09:00] <djellison> Yeah - wanted to give it the best shot early on. I was getting good signal at about 6km at the end of the last flight, I'd hope to pick it up at more like 3-4km at launch
[09:00] <jcoxon> yeah from where i am ideally i hope to get it by 3km
[09:01] <jcoxon> but its a matter of being in the right part of the band at the right time
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[09:22] <rjharrison> Moring all
[09:22] <rjharrison> I will try to monitor whats going on
[09:23] <rjharrison> I have got the tracker working and tested last night
[09:23] <rjharrison> jcoxon, did you get my email
[09:23] <djellison> fldigi ready and waiting over here rj
[09:26] <rjharrison> djellison we're going to be counting on you for the tracking today !
[09:27] <djellison> Pity it's heading very very east, rather than this way :)
[09:27] <djellison> I got the Nov flights down to about 6km though
[09:28] <djellison> I'm happy to be assigned to one payload or the other, depending on what's needed
[09:28] <rjharrison> Anyone mobile wanting to keep an eye on things can use http://www.robertharrison.org/mobile.php?r=1158494513
[09:29] <rjharrison> djellison, the payloads are staying linked together so settle on one and track the other will be a metre behind :)
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[09:34] <jcoxon> rjharrison, yeah i got it - i'm a little swamped so it'll be a while till i get to work on dl-fldigi
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[09:45] <doug_ellison> Bloody mIRC quits when I minimise it.
[09:47] <jcoxon> i don't think anyone in the world likes mIRC
[09:47] <jcoxon> but its a necessity
[09:48] <juxta> rjharrison: what time zone is the clock on that page in?
[09:49] <bittwist> i wish irssi wasnt such a pile of turds
[09:49] <bittwist> would make a nice mirc replacement
[09:50] <bittwist> perhaps someone can make a sexy wrapper that uses irssi ;\
[09:50] <juxta> if anybody knows of a decent irc client, i'd sure like to know about it
[09:50] <doug_ellison> I might switch to coliloquy or whatever it is on my Macbook instead
[09:50] <jcoxon> i use xchat
[09:51] <jcoxon> xchat-aqua on the mac
[09:51] <juxta> ah actually xchat is good
[09:51] <jcoxon> used it for years
[09:51] <doug_ellison> xchat sounds like a premium rate telephone line
[09:51] <jcoxon> doug_ellison, there is probably a plug in for that :-p
[09:51] <juxta> I think there's a windows port too from memory, I should look into it again
[09:52] <jcoxon> right time to go
[09:52] <jcoxon> good luck with the flight...
[09:52] <jcoxon> will be on this evening
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[10:48] <Randomskk> hmm
[10:48] <Randomskk> what kind of things do I need to get to go with a new my-first-radio?
[10:48] <Randomskk> an antenna, presumably
[10:50] <doug_ellison> A really good omni isn't too bad - a nice Yagi is better
[10:50] <Randomskk> am I better off buying or making it?
[10:52] <doug_ellison> I bought one
[10:52] <juxta> Randomskk: I say making :)
[10:52] <doug_ellison> I'm hearing something on .525 - JUST
[10:53] <juxta> you can make a simple yagi for a few bucks and less than an hour
[10:53] <doug_ellison> For your first antenna, I'd recommend buying something known to work. Then, when you make your own, you can compare it to a known benchmark
[10:53] <doug_ellison> Just my lazy opinion though :)
[10:54] <Randomskk> good point
[10:54] <Randomskk> how will I know how much better the home made one is if I have nothing to compare it to? :P
[10:54] <juxta> that is a good point
[10:54] <juxta> haha
[10:54] <juxta> I priced yagi's here, they were really pricey, so I didn't bother, I just made my own
[10:55] <Randomskk> could cheat and get an omni antenna, then compare it to the home made yagi :P
[10:56] <doug_ellison> Well - I have a bought omni (£50 moonraker) - and a bought hand-held yagi ( Arrow)
[10:56] <juxta> here's a little handheld one I made
[10:56] <juxta> http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/IMG_3000.JPG
[10:56] <juxta> coathangers and a bit of wood :D
[10:57] <doug_ellison> I can hear B2_HK on .525
[10:59] <Randomskk> juxta: hehe nice
[11:00] <juxta> Randomskk: compared to a whip whip I bought, it's brilliant
[11:00] <juxta> modelling says ~9dbi gain on that one
[11:00] <doug_ellison> I can hear it getting louder and quieter as it's swinging under the balloon, but nothing on .050 for BC_HK
[11:01] <juxta> hmm, the tracker doesnt seem to be calculating the speed :(
[11:03] <doug_ellison> Loud and clear now - but the red freq-selec is a narrow pair of red lines, so they're not spacing across the two tones
[11:05] <juxta> doug_ellison: carrier shift set wrong?
[11:06] <doug_ellison> I'd have thought picking the right DL CLient would do that
[11:07] <juxta> sometimes it doesnt seem to
[11:08] <doug_ellison> What should it be - where do I set it?
[11:08] <juxta> have a look under opmode -> rtty -> custom
[11:09] <juxta> usually most payloads use 425hz
[11:09] <doug_ellison> It just fixed itself :)
[11:09] <juxta> oh nice
[11:10] <juxta> decoding alright?
[11:10] <doug_ellison> It's fading in and out as it swings, but I'm getting something
[11:13] <doug_ellison> Played with that very setting, looks to me like this one's 350hz -
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[11:14] <juxta> ahrighto
[11:14] Nick change: Damocles_ -> edmoore
[11:14] <edmoore> yo
[11:14] <juxta> hey edmoore
[11:14] <edmoore> nova16 is up
[11:14] <edmoore> anyone listening?
[11:14] <doug_ellison> ME
[11:14] Action: juxta is watching
[11:14] <juxta> are you tracking it also edmoore?
[11:14] <doug_ellison> $$B2_HK,0178,11:14:19,+52.32075,+000.30614,08740,9;-03;`C\+1f{ not getting full packets, it's swinging around a LOT up there
[11:14] <edmoore> doug - are you uploading to dl?
[11:14] <edmoore> that wopuld be incredibly helpful
[11:15] <doug_ellison> Will be once I'm getting full packets
[11:15] <doug_ellison> not QUITE got one yet
[11:15] <edmoore> which freq are you on doug?
[11:15] <doug_ellison> $$B2_HK,0180,11:15:00,+52.32246,+000.31235,08932,9;-03;03c*86bf
[11:15] <doug_ellison> .525
[11:15] <Randomskk> hey edmoore
[11:15] <edmoore> badger2 is probably louder than badgercub
[11:15] <edmoore> ok
[11:15] <edmoore> yep 525
[11:15] <edmoore> recommended freq
[11:15] <doug_ellison> The note last night said .050 as well... not a sausage on there
[11:15] <doug_ellison> 350hz carrier shift?
[11:16] <doug_ellison> SETTLE DOWN badger - you're swinging around so much I can't get a full packet.
[11:16] <edmoore> 367 doug
[11:16] <edmoore> argh
[11:16] <edmoore> 425
[11:16] <edmoore> Hz
[11:17] <doug_ellison> hmm - can you even set manual values in digi?
[11:17] <juxta> you can't, no, but edmoore means 425 ;p
[11:17] <jonsowman> didnt know there was a launch today!
[11:17] <edmoore> neither did we till yesterday
[11:17] <jonsowman> ah
[11:17] <jonsowman> i see
[11:18] <juxta> edmoore: any idea why the tracker isnt displaying speed or heading?
[11:18] <edmoore> no
[11:18] <edmoore> talk to natrium or rjharrison
[11:18] <edmoore> i am in a car
[11:18] <juxta> oh, haha
[11:18] <juxta> didn't realise :)
[11:19] <edmoore> going on chase
[11:19] <doug_ellison> 11:18:40,+52.32710,+000.34601,10013
[11:22] <doug_ellison> It's fading in and out massively - about 10 secs - I'm estimating a 25m line on the payload to get that freq. swing
[11:22] <doug_ellison> not freq swing, but signal coming in and out, in a 10s cycle
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[11:25] <jcoxon> apparently my presentation is at 1 not 11.30
[11:25] <doug_ellison> lmfao
[11:25] <doug_ellison> Is it on time management?
[11:26] <jcoxon> hehe
[11:26] <jcoxon> tracking okay?
[11:27] <doug_ellison> It's comign and going massively for me
[11:27] <doug_ellison> totally vanishes, then comes back very strong - it's swinging around a lot - so I'm not getting full packets
[11:28] <jcoxon> weather ain't great, probably in js right now
[11:28] <juxta> jcoxon: any idea why the tracker isnt displaying speed or heading?
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[11:28] <jcoxon> probably cause they aren't reporting it
[11:28] <rjharrison_> How's it going
[11:29] <rjharrison_> In meeting ATM
[11:29] <juxta> jcoxon: ah, right - I thought it was calculated by the tracker :)
[11:29] <doug_ellison> CLosest thing to a full packet so far - $$B2_HK,0222,11:29:00,+52.31384,+000.43207,13475,8;-07;03c*8d44
[11:29] <rjharrison_> Is the tracker working?
[11:30] <jcoxon> they've got a strong checksum at the end as well
[11:30] <juxta> seems to be rjharrison :)
[11:31] <doug_ellison> $$B2_HK,0228,11:31:00,+52.31142,+000.44795,14031,8;-07;03c*86c9
[11:32] <rjharrison_> Cool finished the implementation of the new checksum at midnight last night
[11:32] <doug_ellison> TO save me refreshing the raw data page - if dl-fldigi puts A on the next line, is that it reporting a good packet?
[11:32] <juxta> doug_ellison: I don't believe dl-fldigi puts anything on the next line
[11:32] <rjharrison_> That is just static
[11:32] <juxta> but make sure you've gone to the options and enabled 'detection and extraction' under misc in the options
[11:32] <doug_ellison> OK - just wondering if I could see the checksum result without hitting the raw page. Some are getting in, I can see that
[11:33] <rjharrison_> Good point juxta but I'm sure he has
[11:33] <rjharrison_> Back to meeting
[11:33] <juxta> sounds like it if some are hitting the tracker :)
[11:34] <rjharrison_> Using mobile to monitor
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[11:34] <jcoxon> Doug the server does the checksums though a confirmation of an accepted string would be a good feature
[11:34] <doug_ellison> Something simple like turning the string green
[11:36] <doug_ellison> Goign to leave it running and try my hand-held + arrow from spare room upstairs - if I get good results, I'll grab my kit and move everything up there
[11:36] <russss> you could probably try and correct slight corruption by using a combination of strict regex validation and checksum brute-forcing
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[11:38] <juxta> back again rjharrison_? :)
[11:38] <rjharrison_> Yep
[11:38] <rjharrison_> Quietly
[11:38] <juxta> hehe
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[11:41] <doug_ellison> Really good signal upstairs - I'm shifting to there - back in 5
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[11:41] <russss> I should plant an aerial on my roof at home
[11:41] <Randomskk> hmm. second hand ic-7000 for £770 "boxed, complete and in mint condition", vs new for £930
[11:42] <Randomskk> good idea?
[11:44] Nick change: edmoore -> Damocles_
[11:44] <Damocles_> lo all
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> 15% off for no warranty/...
[11:44] <Damocles_> Rich here, edmoore's c-pilot in the car :)
[11:44] <Damocles_> *co=pilot
[11:44] <jcoxon> russs, a simple moxon antenna can be made out of coathangers -its tiny and suprisingly good
[11:44] <Damocles_> we've got crappy 3G here so we may drift in and out
[11:44] <Randomskk> hi rich
[11:45] <Damocles_> hi Randomskk
[11:45] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: so far I've never had to use the warrenty on anything but that is a good point
[11:46] <Randomskk> jonsowman 15% of 930 is a lot though :P
[11:46] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[11:46] <SpeedEvil> Regrettably so.
[11:46] <jonsowman> yup
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[11:51] <juxta> damnit, netsplits
[11:51] <djellison_> Now on the yagi - still coming and going - but generally louder
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[11:52] <Randomskk> yay
[11:53] <djellison_> $B2_HK,0293,11:52:40,+52.8641,+000.56968,20019,8;-03;03c*9ddd
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[11:53] <djellison_> Ooo - that was a rather long end of packet tone
[11:53] <Damocles_> We just had a positive response to a ping packet
[11:53] <jcoxon> bbl
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[11:53] <Damocles_> so we have uplink
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[11:55] <Randomskk> where about is the predicted landing?
[11:55] <djellison_> A damn solid packet that time - BB2_HK,0299,11:55:00,+52.28518,+000.57920,20639,9;-02;03c*a2d3
[11:56] <djellison_> 260 metres / minute climb rate
[11:57] <djellison_> Ahh good - they're getting into the tracker now - that's better
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[11:57] <juxta> Damocles_: you have communication *to* the payload?
[11:58] <Damocles_> Randomskk: lat,lng = 52.2971N, 0.9026E
[11:58] <Damocles_> juxta: yup
[11:58] <juxta> Damocles_: nice. what's your TX power?
[11:58] <Damocles_> or rather a ping round trip from basestation to the payload and back
[11:58] <Damocles_> 10 mW
[11:59] <juxta> Damocles_: 10mW from the ground to the payload? is the payload carrying a yagi or something? ;p
[11:59] <Randomskk> don't you have the icom with you for tx?
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[12:00] <Damocles_> juxta: no, but we have a 9 elementyagi on the TX end with a directional head driven from the downlink telemetry
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[12:00] <Randomskk> Damocles_: so presumably a bit more than 10mW transmit power on your end
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[12:01] <jonsowman> hi APEX_Ben
[12:01] <Damocles_> Randomskk: Ed assures me that the TX is 10 mW. I had nothing to do with that bit so I have to believe him :)
[12:01] <APEX_Ben> hi jon
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[12:01] <juxta> wow, nice, that's not much power
[12:01] <Randomskk> balloon tx is 10mw, the car radio is tx at 10mw?
[12:01] <juxta> I suppose with a yagi the EIRP is high thoiugh
[12:01] <Randomskk> brb anyway
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[12:02] <Randomskk> true, with that big a yagi.. :P
[12:02] <Damocles_> We've got some pyros on the line attaching the payload which we're hoping to trigger at 26km
[12:03] <Damocles_> hence why we need communication to payload
[12:03] <juxta> ah righto
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> why not simply an onboard height fence?
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> Or are you testing bi
[12:04] <Damocles_> We're testing
[12:04] <djellison_> Here's my 'groundstation'. Yes - I'm sharing it with the washing - http://twitpic.com/ryhx3
[12:04] <jonsowman> djellison_: nice
[12:05] <juxta> nice djellison :)
[12:05] <juxta> is that a home made yagi?
[12:05] <djellison_> I figure we've got 7 mins or so till you pull the trigger
[12:06] <djellison_> Nope - it's a dualband hand-held Arrow
[12:06] <djellison_> great for working am-sats
[12:06] <djellison_> I've just taken the 2m elements off
[12:07] <juxta> ah okay
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[12:07] <juxta> is it 7 element djellison?
[12:07] <djellison_> Another uplink test
[12:07] <djellison_> 1,2,3,4.... yes it is :)
[12:08] <djellison_> It's this - http://www.arrowantennas.com/146-437.html
[12:10] <djellison_> SHe's coming down
[12:11] <djellison_> I got 24687 at peak
[12:11] <Damocles_> Damn
[12:11] <Damocles_> We burst
[12:11] <djellison_> Now 22182
[12:11] <Damocles_> We're sending the pyro anyway to test
[12:11] <Damocles_> At least it'll turn the camera on
[12:11] <djellison_> @$B2_AK,B2_TP*0265
[12:13] <juxta> Damocles_: what alt were you aiming for?
[12:13] <djellison_> 0349,1:13:00,+52.26021,+000.64654,19518,b;+04;23c*bd97
[12:14] <Damocles_> juxta: 26k
[12:14] <Damocles_> (that was when we were going to send the pytro command)
[12:15] <juxta> bummer :(
[12:15] <juxta> what ballon did you use?
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[12:15] <Damocles_> 1.5
[12:16] <djellison_> 52.25476,+00.66655,16015
[12:16] <russss> seems to be heading for bury st edmunds, heh
[12:17] <Damocles_> was very wet though - might have iced up
[12:17] <Damocles_> We're heading there too :)
[12:18] <jonsowman> "bury st edmunds attacked by badgers"
[12:19] <Damocles_> heh
[12:19] <juxta> tracker doesnt seem to be updating much
[12:21] <djellison_> My packets are getting noisy
[12:21] <djellison_> really bad
[12:21] <djellison_> +52.24891,+000.69977,12275
[12:21] <djellison_> The antenna on this payload was quite directional somehow - the Nov flights were far less dynamic in terms of Rx sig strength
[12:21] <Randomskk> properly into the town then :P
[12:22] <Randomskk> might just overshoot
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[12:22] <Randomskk> unfortunately the town extends furthest in the current direction of travel :P
[12:22] <rjharrison_> Where is the landing
[12:23] <Randomskk> rjharrison_: someone in or near bury st edmunds
[12:23] <rjharrison_> Big payload too
[12:23] <Randomskk> djellison_ got it at 52.24891, 0.69977 and 12k altitude
[12:23] <djellison_> Carrier shift is 425 - but 350 lines up with the two tones on the waterfall so much better
[12:23] <Randomskk> it was at 52.25468, 0.6643 and 16k a little while back
[12:23] <djellison_> 12:23:39,+52.24705,+000.72290
[12:24] <Randomskk> djellison_: get an altitude on that?
[12:24] <djellison_> nope - it hid it from me
[12:24] <djellison_> Got it that time - 12:24:20,+52.24733,+000.72953,10113,
[12:24] <Randomskk> it's a bit over halfway through town now though
[12:24] <Randomskk> might manage to make it over that after all
[12:25] <Randomskk> lol yup it's moving pretty fast
[12:25] <djellison_> beeeeeee - another uplink test.
[12:25] <Randomskk> my guess would be the field out east of the town
[12:25] <Randomskk> or perhaps thurston
[12:29] <djellison_> +52.267,#0.7684,07381
[12:30] <djellison_> That was a more solid packet - 12:30:20,+52.27503,+000.76870,06890
[12:31] <Randomskk> wow, it shot up north a fair bit
[12:31] <Randomskk> lots of fields ahead of it now though
[12:32] <Randomskk> ah, the tracker's got some updates
[12:32] <djellison_> It's back in the winds from the south that took it NNE out of Cambs
[12:32] <Randomskk> ah, yea
[12:33] <Damocles_> 3G is back!
[12:33] <Damocles_> We were in a bit of a black spot
[12:33] <djellison_> Just about getting data - but not proper packets any more
[12:34] <djellison_> LIke I said earlier - decoding more packets with a carrier shift of 375 rather than 450
[12:35] <djellison_> +52.30365,+000.78546,04809
[12:35] <djellison_> Hello RAF Honington
[12:36] <rjharrison> djellison that is the cold affecting the TX
[12:37] <djellison_> rj - it's been the same story the whole flight just about, for me at least - even visually, 450's seemed 'wide' on the waterfall. 375 seems a bit narrow - I'd measure it at 400
[12:38] <djellison_> NEARLY got a packet - +52.31377,+000.79828,0329a 3.2km
[12:39] <djellison_> It's heading for The Bull pub in Ixworth Thorpe. Convenient
[12:39] <rjharrison> djellison yep it looks safe to me
[12:39] <Damocles_> djellison_: yeah, my gf just IM-ed me to point that out :)
[12:39] <rjharrison> The will miss teh RAF base
[12:39] <rjharrison> They will miss the RAF base
[12:40] <rjharrison> Hopefully avoiding the the trees too
[12:40] <djellison_> +52.22084,+000.80101,02877
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[12:41] <djellison_> Getting the odd character, but no real data any more
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[12:42] <Nickle> Interesting to see the descent. Slow rate, then high, then slow again. Any ideas as to why?
[12:42] <Damocles_> djellison_: We had one packet after that at around 2300m but nothing more
[12:42] <djellison_> It slows on the way down as the atmosphere increases in density
[12:43] <russss> does that rate calculation depend on regular packets?
[12:44] <Nickle> The density doesn't explain the initial slow rate that then accelerates
[12:45] <djellison_> What are you looking at?
[12:46] <djellison_> the KML in google earth?
[12:46] <Damocles_> 52.31326N 0.86508E 680m latest position
[12:47] <Randomskk> right over a farmyard... and headed for a copse of trees :P
[12:47] <Damocles_> :)
[12:47] <Damocles_> We eyeballed it down
[12:47] <Randomskk> nice
[12:47] <Randomskk> did it clear the trees?
[12:47] <Damocles_> Looked to
[12:47] <Randomskk> good good
[12:49] <rjharrison_> Well done twice now
[12:49] <Damocles_> unfortunately it came down with balloon attached
[12:49] <djellison_> The Rose and Crown, Stanton - just up the A road. GOod work chaps.
[12:49] <Damocles_> djellison_: ta :)
[12:49] <russss> well timed for lunch
[12:49] <Damocles_> 52.30847N 0.88688E final position
[12:50] <juxta> Damocles_: just missed the lake :)
[12:51] <Damocles_> right -- off toget our feet wet
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[12:52] <rjharrison_> Are we down safely?
[12:53] <juxta> i belive so rjharrison :)
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[12:53] <juxta> <Damocles_> 52.30847N 0.88688E final position
[12:54] <rjharrison_> Cool
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[13:10] <rjharrison_> Any news?
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[13:11] <Laurenceb> hi folks
[13:11] <Laurenceb> hi djellison
[13:11] <Laurenceb> long time no see
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[13:28] <edmoore> yo
[13:28] <edmoore> safely recovered, on way back to cam
[13:28] <Laurenceb> great stuff
[13:28] <Laurenceb> is there a track?
[13:29] <edmoore> spacenearus
[13:29] <Laurenceb> coolio
[13:29] <rjharrison_> Cool congrats hope you get good footage
[13:30] <Laurenceb> 22Km
[13:30] <Laurenceb> good winds
[13:33] <edmoore> it got higher than 22km
[13:33] <edmoore> almost 26
[13:33] <rjharrison_> Imagery ok?
[13:34] <edmoore> don't know yet
[13:34] <edmoore> payload still integrated
[13:34] <Laurenceb> theres data missing after 22.5Km
[13:35] <edmoore> yes
[13:35] <edmoore> we saw the landing
[13:35] <edmoore> http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2596/nova16descent.jpg
[13:36] <Laurenceb> sweet
[13:37] <rjharrison_> Again !!!
[13:37] <edmoore> we were a lot closer this time
[13:38] <rjharrison_> What's the second payload
[13:38] <edmoore> balloon
[13:39] <rjharrison_> No pyro then
[13:39] <edmoore> it didn't burst very well, and it burst much lower than expected
[13:39] <edmoore> so i suspect the two are linked, and perhaps caused by ice
[13:39] <edmoore> as it was a very wet launch
[13:40] <Laurenceb> we need a better sim
[13:41] <Laurenceb> theres effects like the internal temperature of the balloon, and the reynolds number
[13:41] <Laurenceb> the spreadsheet is good, but often off by over 5%
[13:42] <Laurenceb> then again not sure how much luck would be had
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[13:43] <SpeedEvil> 5% -
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsurfe of balloon variability
[13:43] <Laurenceb> yeah that as well
[13:43] <Laurenceb> but if you look at ascent rate v time its pretty variable
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> 5
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> % altitud eyo9u mean
[13:44] <Laurenceb> yes
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> meh - gloves
[13:44] <Laurenceb> http://www.koders.com/c/fid22E0EE64D96CDDB738EBC21735FBFFC0749F5269.aspx <- yum
[13:44] <Laurenceb> let me guess, saving on fuel bills?
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[13:46] <SpeedEvil> yes - also - it makes it easier to go out
[13:46] <SpeedEvil> It's not 'brrr - it's cold outside'
[13:47] <SpeedEvil> which helps clean up the garden - and get me some excersize.
[13:47] <SpeedEvil> which means I can eat more, and not blow the diet.
[13:47] <Laurenceb> s/heath robinson/speedevil
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[13:50] <Laurenceb> I'm trying to understand how they do the bias correction
[13:50] <Laurenceb> unfortunately without any data I'm stuck :-/
[13:51] <Laurenceb> edmoore: do you have an IMU with a magnetometer?
[13:51] Action: Laurenceb is after some raw data
[13:51] <Randomskk> hey edmoore, any thoughts on a second hand ic7000 for £770 vs new for £930?
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[13:51] <Laurenceb> he ran away :(
[13:51] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: I have a magnetometer here if you want me to hook it up to a chip and datalog
[13:51] <Randomskk> 3 axis honeywell thing
[13:51] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: you mean calibration of the maghetometer for biases on 'boot' ?
[13:51] <Randomskk> do you need it with gyro, accel data at the same time though?
[13:51] <Laurenceb> I'm after one with 3 gyro and accel axes attached
[13:51] <Laurenceb> yes
[13:52] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: rotate several times in the x and z axes?
[13:52] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: continuous bias correction for the gyros
[13:52] <Randomskk> I do also have three axis of accel and three axis of gyro lying around, but not all mounted onto something
[13:52] <Laurenceb> doesnt matter then
[13:52] <Laurenceb> that code seems to do it, need to read more
[13:52] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:53] <Laurenceb> possibly one of the cases where matlab is easier to follow
[13:57] <Laurenceb> and they seriously need to invest in some matrix functions
[13:59] <Laurenceb> However, this would take forever. Notably, the inv(E) routine
[13:59] <Laurenceb> * might be very time consuming, even for the 3x3 matrix that results
[13:59] <Laurenceb> * from our three measurements
[13:59] <Laurenceb> looks like they cheated :(
[14:01] <Randomskk> oh this is going to be loads of fun to route. https://randomskk.net/u/mc.png
[14:02] <Laurenceb> looks good so far
[14:02] <Randomskk> I'm relatively happy with the placement and board size is about as good as I think it'l get
[14:03] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: you might want to look at using that code for you quadcopter- looks like they've got everything there
[14:03] <Laurenceb> not sure how well its tested
[14:03] <Randomskk> what platform is it for? or just generic C?
[14:03] <Laurenceb> but its a bit of a fudge
[14:03] <Laurenceb> arm7 - lpc
[14:03] <Randomskk> can probably port it over fairly easily
[14:03] <Randomskk> any assembler-optimised bits?
[14:03] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:03] <Laurenceb> doesnt look like it
[14:03] <Laurenceb> I'm not convinved they needed to fudge it
[14:03] <Randomskk> yea, I only see C parts
[14:04] <Randomskk> shame the comments are in french :P
[14:04] <Randomskk> oh, wait. they're not.
[14:04] <Laurenceb> I think you should be able to run a decent extended kalman filter
[14:04] <Randomskk> as far as I can tell it should be powerful enough to do that
[14:05] <Randomskk> I just wish I'd had more time this term to get the motor controller done so that I could be working on the control code now
[14:05] <Randomskk> instead I'm still working on the motor controller pcb
[14:06] <Randomskk> still I'm happier about all the stuff on that, now, so it's just a case of routing
[14:06] <Randomskk> even has onboard current measurement accurate to about an amp, but only drops about 0.02V from the battery at full current draw
[14:06] <Laurenceb> if it was me I'd have gone with a tower pro controller with hacked firmware
[14:07] <Randomskk> naaah :P
[14:07] <Randomskk> this way is more fun
[14:07] <Randomskk> also this way I get rpm, current, etc reported over the i2c
[14:07] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:08] <Randomskk> I'll probably add a thermometer to the heatsink too and get the FET temperature
[14:08] <Laurenceb> possibly useful data for the attitude filter as well
[14:08] <Randomskk> yea
[14:08] <Randomskk> both could act as a feedback loop
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[14:18] <Laurenceb> actually I think they are using a clever trick
[14:18] <Laurenceb> they treat each sensor as independant
[14:18] <Laurenceb> and as they are orthogonal I think that means theres no matrix bashing
[14:18] <Laurenceb> odd... guess you have to work out all the maths
[14:24] <Laurenceb> lol line 1597
[14:31] <Laurenceb> argg that code is a hideous mess - horrible mix of local and global variables - variable names, comments ect
[14:31] <Laurenceb> but anyway I think the idea has promise
[14:38] <Laurenceb> looking at the problem again I think it does fudge the error treatment somewhat
[14:38] <Laurenceb> SO confusing :(
[14:41] <Laurenceb> if it was that easy everyone would cheat
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[14:51] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4StlvX-kOg <- lulz
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[15:27] <edmoore> sleeeeepy
[15:28] <Randomskk> heya
[15:30] <djellison_> Was the recovery OK?
[15:33] <edmoore> yes
[15:33] <edmoore> great
[15:33] <edmoore> we saw it come down
[15:34] <edmoore> did you see the pic?
[15:34] <edmoore> http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2596/nova16descent.jpg
[15:36] <djellison_> Nice work on the parachute :)
[15:39] <Damocles_> It was made of many degrees of win
[15:40] Nick change: Damocles_ -> rjw57
[15:41] <djellison_> is that just a chunk-o-balloon at the bottom of the pic?
[15:41] <Randomskk> have you got the photos out of it now?
[15:42] <Randomskk> (did it have any cameras?)
[15:43] <edmoore> djellison: yes
[15:44] <djellison_> Ed - you might not have been reading - I switched to the Yagi - took macbook + 817 to the spare room - had Yagi on a tripod pointing out the window. Got telem down to about 4km, 3km was very dodgy.
[15:45] <edmoore> awesome
[15:45] <edmoore> that's really not bad from oop north
[15:45] <djellison_> Hundreds of packets, but most failed the check. The radiation off that antenna was odd, it came and went SO much as it was swinging
[15:45] <djellison_> from total silence, to turning the waterfall red
[15:46] <edmoore> it was a wierd shape
[15:46] <edmoore> not straight
[15:46] <edmoore> just hanging loose
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[15:46] <Laurenceb> impressive
[15:47] <djellison_> You could have an awesome groundstation here with just an az-rotator, no elevation at all.
[15:47] <Laurenceb> http://www.thesiliconhorizon.com/ <- theres some interesting IMU kit on there - not sure about the models
[15:50] <Laurenceb> djellison: what gain is your yagi?
[15:52] <Laurenceb> or how many elements?
[15:55] <djellison_> 7
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[15:55] <djellison_> It's the dual band arrow hand-held Yagi for working Am-Sats
[15:56] <edmoore> djellison: sorry had to dash
[15:56] <Laurenceb> even more impressive then
[15:56] <edmoore> so yes, antenna was not rotationally symetric
[15:56] <djellison_> http://twitpic.com/ryhx3
[15:57] <djellison_> Yeah - very not. I was amazed. nothing - loud - nothing - loud.
[15:57] <djellison_> Was there supposed to be a second downlink?
[15:58] <edmoore> djellison: nice setup
[15:59] <Laurenceb> djellison: you live near leicester IIRC?
[15:59] <Randomskk> edmoore: there's a second hand ic7000 for £770 "boxed, mint" vs a new one for £930, any thoughts?
[15:59] <Randomskk> will be getting one or the other by the looks of things
[15:59] <djellison_> Yup - not far from the M1
[15:59] <djellison_> on the ring road just about
[15:59] <edmoore> your cal
[15:59] <Laurenceb> thats quite some distance
[16:00] <edmoore> if it's mint, why not?
[16:00] Action: Laurenceb got an icom pcr-1000 for £110
[16:00] <djellison_> 140km I think
[16:00] <Randomskk> I can't think why not. well, I guess warrenty? not sure how that works
[16:00] <Randomskk> but that's never been an issue before
[16:01] <Laurenceb> thats a lot to pay... depends if you have the money I guess
[16:01] <edmoore> me neither
[16:04] Action: Laurenceb was looking at some of the maxim Tv tuner ICs
[16:04] <Randomskk> edmoore: any potential issues with it being used?
[16:04] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: I saw, they look like really really neat chips
[16:04] <Randomskk> can you buy them in small qty?
[16:04] <Laurenceb> some of them are a pain - you have to have an NDA etc
[16:05] <Laurenceb> but there was one that appears to be sampled
[16:05] <Randomskk> NDA for a TV tuner? wow
[16:06] <Laurenceb> http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/5928
[16:06] <Laurenceb> that looked good - I had a look tghrough the datasheet and it should go from 15MHz or so to 1.3GHz
[16:07] <Laurenceb> a little on the power hungry side but its not horrible
[16:07] <Laurenceb> some of the direct conversion ones are nice but they dont have the same operating range
[16:07] <Laurenceb> also they are all NDA
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[16:17] <Laurenceb> the sensitivity is about 0.1uV at 3kHz bandwidth
[16:17] <Laurenceb> if I calculated it right
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[16:20] <jcoxon> hey all
[16:20] <jcoxon> how did the launch go?
[16:21] <Randomskk> they recovered okay
[16:21] <Randomskk> saw it land, even
[16:21] <rjw57> jcoxon: Good. Picture of the descent: http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2596/nova16descent.jpg
[16:21] <rjw57> Was about 100m away from us
[16:22] <rjw57> => pub
[16:23] <jcoxon> nice parachute
[16:26] <jcoxon> great - glad its back
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[16:35] <Laurenceb> custom chute?
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[16:43] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, i think so
[16:43] <djellison_> Beautiful chute, I must say
[16:44] <djellison_> Like one of Huygen's chutes, in minature
[16:44] <jcoxon> :-)
[16:48] <Laurenceb> the slats in the side make it more stable or something I guess
[16:52] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, on an AVR how would you tell if the watchdog has reset the AVR?
[16:52] <jcoxon> as in once it had restarted
[16:54] <Laurenceb> theres a status register
[16:54] <Laurenceb> I forget sorry- ask on #avr
[16:54] <jcoxon> np
[16:54] <Laurenceb> but yeah theres a register that gives the reset cause
[16:54] <jcoxon> cool
[16:55] <Laurenceb> you can do cool things with that and non initialised RAM
[16:55] <Laurenceb> so if theres anything other than a power on reset you can reuse variables from previously
[16:56] <jcoxon> i'm trying to avoid any hanging with my i2c connection between the 2 avrs
[16:56] <jcoxon> if the secondary avr is off then i2c hangs
[16:56] <Laurenceb> yeah i2c is annoying like that
[16:56] <jcoxon> so i'm sticking in a watchdog to reset if it hangs and then if it is activated to avoid doing i2c for a bit
[16:56] <Laurenceb> -well on avr
[16:56] <Laurenceb> you could timeout on the i2c surely?
[16:57] <djellison_> It's a ring sail chute I think. That's ESA's favorite design. NASA does disk-band-gap chutes for Mars - it's be interesting to see one of those carry a payload down
[16:57] <Laurenceb> http://ukhas.org.uk/code:i2c_eeprom
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[17:02] <djellison_> Glad I could throw a few bits onto the tracking db today - I'm off....party time :)
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[17:51] <Laurenceb> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18233-solarpowered-piloted-plane-makes-its-first-flea-hop.html
[17:55] <russss> nice
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[17:58] <rjharrison> Hey jcoxon
[17:58] <rjharrison> Did you get my email last night about the +'s
[17:58] <rjharrison> junderwood, congratulations
[17:59] <jcoxon> rjharrison, yup
[17:59] <jcoxon> it'll be awhile before i get round to fldigi
[17:59] <rjharrison> I assume you're not filtering out +'s
[17:59] <rjharrison> I think it's to do with the post string
[18:00] <jcoxon> no i'm not filtering them
[18:01] <rjharrison> weird I just s\ \+ the post string to get aroung it atm
[18:01] <junderwood> Thanks. Successful flight.
[18:01] <rjharrison> tracking worked too
[18:01] <junderwood> Apart from the &*'!# balloon bursting 100m short of the cut-down
[18:02] <jcoxon> could have done with a few more listeners
[18:02] <rjharrison> lol that's a bummer
[18:02] <rjharrison> I wondered what the ballon was doing in the pic
[18:02] <rjharrison> junderwood have you viewd the imagery yet?
[18:02] <rjharrison> Success?
[18:03] <junderwood> Tracking was great. We used a some software in the chase car which continually updates the landing coordinates based on the current gribs and the trajectory so far. We got right under the flight path for the final descent
[18:04] <junderwood> The imagery is embargoed for the time-being, I'm afraid (apart from the ground photo Ed posted)
[18:04] <rjharrison> junderwood NP just was it good
[18:04] <rjharrison> no problem
[18:04] <junderwood> The data were good. Ascent, descent and the route back home afterwards!
[18:05] <rjharrison> ie you got the imagry you wanted
[18:05] <rjharrison> Appart from the bloody balloon drag
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[18:42] <jcoxon> evening RocketBoy
[18:48] <RocketBoy> hiya jcoxon
[18:48] <RocketBoy> I have been playing with ethe HF TX code - I think I have the TX cracked now - so heading on to the RX
[18:49] <RocketBoy> Just populated the RX components on the rockmite - and have it on the bench for testing
[18:50] <RocketBoy> the RX isn't that linear - they seem have decided to "limit" the audio (as in amptitude limit)
[18:51] <RocketBoy> so im just working on a zero point crossing reciver design
[18:51] <RocketBoy> basically determines frequency by timing the audio zero point crossings
[18:53] <jcoxon> oh i see
[18:53] <jcoxon> cool
[18:53] <jcoxon> glad you are making progress
[18:53] <RocketBoy> Oh - BTW the lassen break out turned up - thanks! - just waiting for the sockets to arrive now
[18:54] <jcoxon> great, was the postage okay? i thought i may not have put enough stamps
[18:54] <RocketBoy> must hae been - they didn't ask for any more
[18:54] <jcoxon> good, its hard to judge these days
[18:55] <jcoxon> i'm pleased with that board
[18:55] <jcoxon> considering how little it cost
[18:55] <jcoxon> only $18
[18:55] <jcoxon> for 5
[18:56] <RocketBoy> wow - that is good - I must start making PCBs
[18:56] <jcoxon> i had to 'open source' the design to get a $12 rebate off the original ?30
[18:56] <jcoxon> and it took a month to arrive
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[18:58] <RocketBoy> Im thinking of using one of the big PIC packages - 80 pin or bigger - pleanty of I/O
[18:58] <jcoxon> :-D
[18:58] <jcoxon> in the new year i'm going to do a new version of my atlas flight board - same really but breakout the other pins
[18:58] <RocketBoy> that one has 4 USARTs
[18:59] <jcoxon> :-p
[18:59] <jcoxon> the AtlanticHalo flight computer has 4 as well
[18:59] <RocketBoy> and USB and ...
[19:00] <RocketBoy> I like the idea of keeping the flight board down to just the processor, crystal and perhaps a SD card
[19:00] <RocketBoy> and having everything else (GPS sensors etc) plug in
[19:01] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:01] <RocketBoy> using 3 pin connectors - 0V, +V and I/O
[19:01] <jcoxon> i'm just testing my i2c code between my primary and secondary AVRs
[19:01] <RocketBoy> that way you can place the sensor where you want it
[19:02] <RocketBoy> cool I like i2c
[19:03] <RocketBoy> thinking of calling my board hedgehog - cos of all the pins
[19:03] <RocketBoy> (and to retain the wild country animal theme)
[19:03] <jcoxon> hehe
[19:04] <RocketBoy> 80 I/O lines x 3 = 240 pins
[19:04] <jcoxon> thats quite a bit
[19:04] <jcoxon> one day i'll finish this payload
[19:04] <jcoxon> one day...
[19:04] <RocketBoy> yeah square - 2" sides
[19:06] <RocketBoy> I need to have a chat with ed about parachute coning some time
[19:07] <RocketBoy> (coning is the cone like motion that gests set up between the parachute and payload)
[19:07] <RocketBoy> I have noticed it on a couple of flights when they are at high altitude
[19:08] <RocketBoy> It may be caused by the parachue spill hole being obscured by the "bottle top"
[19:09] <jcoxon> make the bottle top a ring then?
[19:09] <RocketBoy> Yeah I guess somthing like that
[19:10] <RocketBoy> or mesh
[19:20] <RocketBoy> yeah - looking back at the parachute videos I can see the "bottle top" to is pressed right up against the spill hole at high altitude / but drops down out of the chute at lower altitudes
[19:21] <RocketBoy> that would cause the coning
[19:21] <junderwood> Parachutes will always tend to cone more at high altitude than low
[19:22] <junderwood> You need to increase the geometric porosity (i.e. the amount of hole in the canoy)
[19:22] <RocketBoy> can you explain why?
[19:22] <junderwood> canopy
[19:22] <junderwood> Added mass
[19:22] <junderwood> At high altitude, you have the mass of the parachute oscillating. At low altitude you have the mass of the parachute and a whole lot of air moving around
[19:23] <junderwood> The mass of the air within the parachute tends to make the effective mass higher and damps the motion
[19:23] <junderwood> (Non-technical explanation of a rather complex phenomenon)
[19:24] <RocketBoy> possibly - mu guess would be that the payload has less drag at higher altitudes as it spins round the baase of the cone
[19:24] <RocketBoy> hence the cone can be bigger
[19:24] <RocketBoy> looks like its almost 45 desgrees in some of the videos
[19:25] <junderwood> If your parachute is unstable (and if it doesn't have a decent vent hole, it will be) it will be stable at non-zero angle of attack. At high altitudes it will cone. At low altitudes it will glide.
[19:25] <RocketBoy> with rotation of aboout onece per 2 secs
[19:25] <junderwood> Coning is very obvious. Gliding isn't
[19:27] <junderwood> A flat-circular parachute is stable at a glide angle of 20° or more.
[19:37] Nick change: RocketBoy -> RocketBoy|Away
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[20:00] <rjharrison_> Hey jcoxon
[20:01] <rjharrison_> Did that work for you
[20:01] <rjharrison_> MCUSB
[20:07] <jcoxon> nope
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[20:07] <jcoxon> to do with the bootloader reseting the register
[20:08] <jcoxon> but i've got a work around so no panic
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[20:32] <blomlet> Would I be right in thinking the guys that did the Sun 40th, Pudsey and Arm chair are here?
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[20:33] <sbasuita> blomlet, pudsey was by RocketBoy|Away
[20:33] <sbasuita> blomlet, armchair was by an american group... don't think any of them hang out here
[20:34] <blomlet> okay - Do you know who sought out whom for the projects?
[20:36] <sbasuita> blomlet, no, sorry
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[20:36] <rjharrison_> blomlet yep in the main
[20:36] <rjharrison_> Me the sun
[20:37] <rjharrison_> RocketBoy|Away the pudsey
[20:37] <rjharrison_> Not the the arm chair
[20:37] <rjharrison_> blomlet
[20:37] <blomlet> Well...
[20:37] <blomlet> Branson's galactic thingy is taking off in the next month or so
[20:48] <DanielRichman> Ok soooo. I want to build a yagi. I'd like to use it outside, so waterproof. It'd also be better if I could build from a square-shaped boom since that's easier to mark onto and drill into. What type of wood (waterproof, or perhaps some sort of waterproof treatment?)
[20:49] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, just ask mr dance for some varnish
[20:49] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, that should keep out the water i think - or he'll def have something
[20:50] <DanielRichman> true, will do
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[23:41] <MikeMc68> hi guys
[23:41] <MikeMc68> long time no see
[23:42] <MikeMc68> talking to you from my Android phone
[23:42] <MikeMc68> :-)
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[00:00] --- Fri Dec 4 2009