highaltitude.log.20091201

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[08:25] <rjharrison> ping junderwood
[08:25] <junderwood> 'morning
[08:27] <rjharrison> Hi I'm just wrting you a quick email as I would like to make a change to the TX string
[08:27] <rjharrison> Mainly just the delimitere
[08:27] <rjharrison> Mainly just the delimiters
[08:27] <junderwood> OK. Will have a look when it arrives (will be going out in 5 minutes so it could be later in the day)
[08:27] <rjharrison> $$BC_HK,ssss,hh:mm:ss,+aa.aaaaa,+bbb.bbbbb,ccccc,f,+tt,d,#xxxx to $$BC_HK,ssss,hh:mm:ss,+aa.aaaaa,+bbb.bbbbb,ccccc,f;tt;d#xxxx
[08:28] <rjharrison> The custom data f;tt;d needs to be separated with ;
[08:28] <junderwood> just the comma before the hash?
[08:28] <rjharrison> ideally the checksum would not have a delimiter before it
[08:28] <rjharrison> I'll email
[08:29] <rjharrison> Usefull code http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:dlistener
[08:29] <rjharrison> wiki even
[08:29] <junderwood> The reason the comma was there was so that clients that didn't understand checksums could still read all the fields.
[08:29] <rjharrison> Ok you can leave it
[08:29] <junderwood> I am quite happy to save 200ms and not include it, though!
[08:30] <rjharrison> Non of our clients look for the checksum
[08:30] <junderwood> OK. Let me think about it.
[08:30] <rjharrison> Sure
[08:31] <junderwood> The custom data separator shouldn't be a major problem.
[08:31] <rjharrison> Basically it stores the custom data in the DB in one field
[08:31] <junderwood> In fact, if you keep the comma separator, the custom data just becomes one field.
[08:31] <junderwood> Ah great minds ...
[08:32] <rjharrison> This way you can have up to 4gb of custom data the way it is stored in the db
[08:32] <rjharrison> yep
[08:33] <junderwood> 4GB at 50 baud=27 years
[08:33] <junderwood> Should be sufficient
[08:33] <rjharrison> hehe esp at 50 baud
[08:36] <rjharrison> junderwood, can we change the # for a * too
[08:37] <junderwood> I had a # to differentiate between the XOR checksum (*) and the TCP checksum (#)
[08:38] <junderwood> Then you don't need to know the telemetry format beforehand. You choose automagically based on the delimiter
[08:45] <rjharrison> Yep true but I can also tell by the number of chars in the checksum and the XML knows the type of checksum too
[08:46] <rjharrison> I'm not sure anyone would want to use a # char in their telemetry
[08:47] <rjharrison> I don't feel strongly about this as I can see an argument both ways
[08:49] <rjharrison> Using the # char in their data I mean rather than the checksum. Ie the # would still be available for use.
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[10:15] <junderwood> rjharrison Agreed that the xml knows the checksum type. The number of characters in the checksum isn't bomb-proof since you could have missed the last few.
[10:15] <junderwood> Having said that, it would then fail the checksum
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[10:47] <juxta> has anybody ever followed radiosondes before?
[10:57] <gordonjcp> I used to hear them on 27MHz
[11:15] <rjharrison> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8063975.stm
[11:15] <rjharrison> a bit OT
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[12:28] <juxta> hmm, I'm trying to test my payload & dl-fldigi. I can decode fine in fl-digi, and i seem to announce when I open it, but none of my sentences seem to be turning up at http://robertharrison.org/listen/view.php
[12:40] <juxta> hmm, having a look with wireshark, doesnt look like dl-fldigi is actually trying to forward the messages on
[12:43] <juxta> there we go, helps to tick the box
[13:41] <rjharrison> hehe
[13:42] <rjharrison> Juxta do you need an XML file sorting for your payload
[13:43] <rjharrison> If so send me the sentance structure see here for an example http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:dlistener
[13:43] <rjharrison> bbiab LUNCH
[13:43] <juxta> hey rjharrison, jcoxon sorted the xml for me :)
[13:45] <juxta> if you can clear the positions for my payload that'd be great though, so that I can do another test in a few days time
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[13:48] <rjharrison> juxta done
[13:49] <rjharrison> yo edmoore
[13:49] <rjharrison> Just off to lunch
[13:49] <edmoore> yo
[13:49] <edmoore> am around for a bit
[13:49] <rjharrison> back in 1 mins
[13:49] <rjharrison> 15
[13:51] <juxta> thanks rjharrison, though they still seem to be there :P
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[14:05] <jonsowman> ta for the email edmoore
[14:05] <edmoore> np
[14:07] <jonsowman> doubt theyll get here before i leave though
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[16:08] <rjharrison> junderwood, are you going to be around tonight?
[16:27] <edmoore> rjharrison: i think he's away atm
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[16:55] <Randomskk> can anyone think of any better way to measure current than a low-resistance shunt resistor and measure the voltage drop over it?
[16:56] <Randomskk> or maybe just a better way to implement it - with this method I either dissipate a lot of power but get a reasonable voltage drop, or dissipate very little power but get a tiny voltage drop which is hard to measure accurately
[16:56] <Randomskk> at 20A, 0R01 gives like 4W dissipation for a 0.2V drop
[16:57] <Randomskk> 0R001 gives 0.4W dissipation but only 0.02V drop
[16:58] <russss> well the other way is a current transformer/clamp meter.
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> Do you care about accuracy much?
[16:59] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: eh, I guess not
[16:59] <Randomskk> the critical point of it is to detect massive overcurrent conditions
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: A sensitive millivoltmeter over a length of track
[17:00] <Randomskk> it'd be nice to get a reasonably accurate reading
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: Can easily get to +-10% or so
[17:00] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: an AVR's ADC is not a sensitive millivoltmeter though
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> No, you'd need an opamp in front of it
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> *1000 is trivial
[17:00] <Randomskk> a length of track would be far superior to an actual, power-dissipating resistor
[17:00] <Randomskk> I guess that'd be fairly simple to do
[17:00] <Randomskk> lm386 or something?
[17:00] <Randomskk> or something smaller I guess
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> 386 is a audio power amp
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> a normal opamp with a common mode voltage including the rail you're sensing
[17:01] Action: Randomskk has not used a wide range of opamps :P
[17:01] <Randomskk> okay
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> lm324/741/...
[17:01] <russss> I remember seeing a solid state current sensor IC, but I can't remember how much current it did
[17:02] <Randomskk> lol all the 324s seem to come in quad packages
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> yes - because the 324 is a quad amp
[17:04] <Randomskk> great big soic14
[17:04] <Randomskk> or tssop14
[17:04] <Randomskk> well that'd explain it
[17:04] <russss> http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Categories/Sensors/currentsensor.asp
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> There are lots of opamps in SOT23-5
[17:04] <russss> that's the badger
[17:04] <Randomskk> huh, farnell has a "current sense amplifiers" category
[17:05] <Randomskk> russss: ooh, neat.
[17:06] <SpeedEvil> yeah - the cheapest way is just a PCB current shunt
[17:06] <Randomskk> hmm, farnell even have a current sensor category which includes some pretty tiny things
[17:07] <Randomskk> looks like it's essentially an opamp though
[17:07] <Randomskk> oh, they have those allegro chips too
[17:13] <russss> they've got some awesome animated gifs http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Design/current_sensors/index.asp
[17:15] <Randomskk> shame it looks like they all run off 5v
[17:15] <Randomskk> wow, neat GIFs indeed
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Special-Delivery.aspx oops.
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[17:24] <Randomskk> lol
[17:24] <Randomskk> I got the scale on the photo totally wrong at first
[17:24] <Randomskk> then realised it was piled high with lumps of coal
[17:24] <Randomskk> and !
[17:30] <junderwood> rjharrison I'm around on and off for the next couple of hours then away until much later
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[17:56] <jcoxon> evenign all
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[18:07] <RocketBoy> Ha - just decoded the APRS packet radio message in the Toshiba Advert http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6PSbUl_68k
[18:07] <RocketBoy> It says: FLIGHT-0 -> APT311-0 via WIDE2 UI Pid=F0
[18:07] <RocketBoy> !0000.00N/00000.00EO000/000/A=000000
[18:08] <russss> heh
[18:08] <RocketBoy> APT311-0 is an APRS mobile tracked object - currently in Holland: http://aprs.fi/?call=APT311
[18:08] <jcoxon> oh yeah i knew that already :-p
[18:08] <jcoxon> the advert came out in the states a couple of weeks ago
[18:08] <jcoxon> they decoded it then as well :-p
[18:09] <jcoxon> they obviously thought it sounded cool
[18:09] <RocketBoy> WIDE2 is a APRS repeater station in Finland: http://aprs.fi/?call=APT311
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[18:10] <RocketBoy> Any more details on where the flight was?
[18:10] <RocketBoy> (or if its real at all)
[18:11] <jcoxon> yeah its real
[18:11] <jcoxon> one sec i'll find it
[18:11] <jcoxon> i think it was by the JP aerospace guys
[18:11] <RocketBoy> that figures
[18:12] <RocketBoy> I guess the side shots are faked
[18:14] <russss> http://www.jpaerospace.com/away39-42.html
[18:15] <jcoxon> they you go :-)
[18:16] <russss> the chair was made out of balsa wood
[18:17] <russss> they flew them out of the black rock desert though, so I'm not sure where the finnish repeater came from ;)
[18:20] <jcoxon> i read they over laid that as it sounded cool
[18:20] <jcoxon> wish we had a desert to fly n
[18:20] <jcoxon> in*
[18:20] <russss> yeah they probably just found a recording on the internet, heh
[18:21] <jcoxon> isn't WIDE2 the path setup
[18:21] <jcoxon> its to do with the number of nodes it gets repeated on
[18:22] <RocketBoy> could be - I'm no APRS expert
[18:23] <jcoxon> yeah its a recurrent issue with flights in the US, near the ground you want a wide path but in the air it swamps the aprs system with packets
[18:23] <jcoxon> never really got my head around APRS
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[18:27] <RocketBoy> The way I understand it is that APRS (a position reporting system) is just one of many things that can be run over AX.25 packet protocol
[18:28] <russss> I had some experience with AX25 when I was about 12, heh
[18:28] <jcoxon> yeah, its more of a packet format and then a system of repeaters and internet nodes
[18:28] <RocketBoy> I suspect the Callsigns are to do with AX.25 packet routing
[18:29] <RocketBoy> I think UI frames (see tosh message) are equivelent to broadcast frames - a bit like UDP - expect no acknogelemnt
[18:30] <RocketBoy> UI messages are used for APRS IIR
[18:34] <jcoxon> hehe my telemetry strings on ballasthalo3 are quite long :-p
[18:35] <jcoxon> e.g.
[18:35] <jcoxon> $$ATLAS,%d,%d:%d:%d,%s,%s,%ld,%d,%s;%d;%d;%d;%d;%d;%d;%d;%d;%d;%d;%d
[18:37] <rjharrison> jcoxon that is long !
[18:37] <rjharrison> off home
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[18:38] <jcoxon> got a lot of data to downlink
[18:39] <RocketBoy> I cant beat that
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[19:38] <rjharrison_> ping junderwood
[19:38] <junderwood> hello
[19:38] <rjharrison_> You in a position to get the xml sorted?
[19:39] <junderwood> I don't have long at the moment. You want to try uploading some (new) strings?
[19:39] <rjharrison_> I can just knock up the files to parse the sentances I sent you via email
[19:39] <rjharrison_> If you have fixed the output then yes
[19:40] <junderwood> I've not done the code changes yet. They are on the list for tomorrow morning. May do this evening if my meeting is a short one.
[19:40] <rjharrison_> If you do launch Thursday it would be good to have tested the decode
[19:40] <rjharrison_> Sure tomorow is fine
[19:42] <junderwood> I think I can live with the new format (s/,/;/ s/,#/*/)
[19:42] <rjharrison_> cool
[19:42] <rjharrison_> but only for the custom data :)
[19:42] <junderwood> Don't know the sed syntax for that!
[19:44] <rjharrison_> me neither but good effort
[19:48] <junderwood> BTW. You need to check the packet header (B2_HK or BC_HK). There may be occasional valid packets with different headers and totally different payloads. These should be ignored!
[19:50] <rjharrison_> hehe don't worry it won't even try to parse those
[19:50] <rjharrison_> The tracker works by using the header to load the XML to parse the rest of the data
[19:51] <rjharrison_> The header must always be the first field after the delimiter
[19:51] <rjharrison_> and is good practice to give callsign first
[19:54] <rjharrison_> Right if you have access to dl-fldigi you will find it has the new codes
[19:54] <rjharrison_> XML files even
[19:54] <rjharrison_> you may have to restart if its running
[20:12] <junderwood> Not using dl-fldigi but just uploaded some strings to the tracker
[20:12] <junderwood> try again later
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[20:16] <rjharrison_> junderwood have you implemented tracking too cool
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[21:28] <Laurenceb> hi
[21:29] <Randomskk> hi
[21:29] <Randomskk> ugh shunt resistors :P
[21:30] <Randomskk> either I get something with so small a resistance that the copper traces will probably have more, or I get something that dissipates so much power that it's both wasteful and hard to find a small resistor that can take it
[21:31] <Laurenceb> try magnetic sensors?
[21:32] <Randomskk> was considering that, but the only ones I can find designed to be used as current sensors need a 5V input and also are a lot more expensive
[21:32] <Randomskk> I'm thinking I could maybe get away with literally shorting the pins that should go across a resistor for this opamp together
[21:32] <Randomskk> about 3mm copper trace
[21:32] <Laurenceb> maybe
[21:33] <Laurenceb> might get tripped by emi
[21:33] <Randomskk> all sorts of things could fuck it up at that level really
[21:33] <Randomskk> a nice 10milliohm or more resistor'd be better, but at 20A you're talking 4W with 10milliohm
[21:34] <Randomskk> maybe just a hall sensor next to or around a wire or something
[21:35] <Laurenceb> whats up with a milliohm?
[21:35] <Laurenceb> or less
[21:36] <Randomskk> 1milliohm is where I'd like to be
[21:36] <Randomskk> but at that level, a millimeter of copper trace at 12mil width and 1oz/ft² thickness is over a milliohm at room temp
[21:36] <Laurenceb> really
[21:37] <Randomskk> http://circuitcalculator.com/wordpress/2006/01/24/trace-resistance-calculator/
[21:37] <Randomskk> thing is that seems kinda silly
[21:37] <Laurenceb> yes
[21:37] <Laurenceb> seems excessive to me
[21:37] <Randomskk> if I've got 20A flowing over 3mm of that copper, it would appear I dissipate 2W in the copper trace
[21:37] <Laurenceb> I'l;l check
[21:37] <Randomskk> thing is 1milliohm is pretty tiny
[21:38] <Laurenceb> 2.06mm of 1mm width
[21:38] <Laurenceb> I get
[21:39] <Laurenceb> you were using mil not mm
[21:39] <Randomskk> mil thickness, mm length
[21:39] <Randomskk> mil width even
[21:40] <Laurenceb> yes
[21:41] <Laurenceb> 1mm width, 2.06mm lenght looks fine
[21:41] <Laurenceb> its not going to overheat either
[21:42] <Laurenceb> I dont see any problems going for the trace
[21:43] <Randomskk> consistency would be an issue I guess
[21:44] <Laurenceb> yeah its quite small so youre approaching the manufacturing tolerance
[21:45] <Laurenceb> might be best testing it before soldering the opamp/comparitor resistors
[21:46] <SpeedEvil> Just do a opamp with a gain of ~1000 or so across the track. Then calibrate in software
[21:46] <SpeedEvil> or even with a variable resistor
[21:46] <Laurenceb> I think its meant to give out a logic level
[21:47] <Laurenceb> for an interrupt pin
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> Ah - well - comparator then
[21:48] <Randomskk> well, analogue voltage out for an ADC mostly
[21:48] <Randomskk> whether I'll hook it into a comparator as well for a quicker response I dunno
[21:48] <Randomskk> a short overcurrent condition isn't super disasterous but stopping quickly would be good
[21:53] <Laurenceb> I'm not 100% convinced of the usefullness
[21:53] <Laurenceb> if the uC goes to put you could still fry
[21:53] <Laurenceb> *to pot
[21:54] <Laurenceb> in my experience that can happen with bad power supply noise for example
[21:54] <Randomskk> true, but it's cool to know the current consumption and could allow for interesting things later, like monitoring current over time to get an idea of battery capacity, or optimising control for minimum motor current
[21:54] <Randomskk> and some amount of overcurrent protection won't hurt
[21:54] <Randomskk> not sure if a fuse is worth putting in line too
[21:54] <Laurenceb> yeah ok
[21:55] <Laurenceb> and yeah current monitoring would be good
[21:57] <Randomskk> hmm
[21:57] <Randomskk> apparently if I do it right I can get away with a real resistor and the copper resistance won't matter significantly
[21:57] <Randomskk> kelvin sensing
[21:57] <Randomskk> almost no current flow in the traces to/from the amp and shunt, so no voltage dropped over those traces
[21:58] <Randomskk> instead you just measure the voltage dropped over the resistor itself, which is a 1milliohm 1% resistor, so consistent
[21:58] <Randomskk> only 0.02V dropped from the battery, 0.4W dissipation and 2V signal output
[22:03] Action: Laurenceb hyas been trying out SDCC
[22:04] <Laurenceb> I'm tempted tyo try building something with an 8051
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[22:08] <Laurenceb> cant find any benchmarks tho
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> of?
[22:09] <Laurenceb> well yeah theres so many different cores
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> oh
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> yeah - the classic core is something like 12 clocks per instruction
[22:10] <Laurenceb> but somne math lib benchmarks for 8051 would be nice
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> minimal instruction
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> ones addressing memory may use more
[22:10] <Laurenceb> you can get single cycle 24MHz cores which is what excites me
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> why not stm32 say
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> If you need maths
[22:10] <Laurenceb> yeah true
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[23:54] <Laurenceb> cya
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[00:00] --- Wed Dec 2 2009