highaltitude.log.20091123

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[00:44] <juxta> I called the civil aviation authority here, it seems approval for launch is on a case by case basis rather than sticking to their predefined legislation, which is good news
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[10:00] <MikeMc> morning everyone
[10:03] Action: SpeedEvil finds that it is in fact morning.
[10:03] Action: SpeedEvil blames MikeMc.
[10:03] <MikeMc> :O
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[10:12] <MikeMc> anyone live in or near Manchester?
[10:13] Action: SpeedEvil is far from that fair city.
[10:25] <MikeMc> i wanted to know if they had an iMax cinema in Manchester
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[13:14] <juxta> evening all
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[14:48] <Laurenceb> hi
[14:50] <juxta> hi Laurenceb :)
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> hi
[14:50] <Laurenceb> anyone see RocketBoy on children in need?
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> nope
[14:50] Action: juxta finally found a working download for yagimax
[14:51] Action: Laurenceb managed to bear watching an hour before giving up
[14:51] Action: SpeedEvil hasn't watched TV for a few months now.
[14:51] <SpeedEvil> Well - more like a year I spose
[14:51] <juxta> Laurenceb: I tried to watch the clip on youtube, but I can't watch it in Australia
[14:51] <Laurenceb> thats daft
[14:51] <juxta> yeah - the video is restricted to users in the UK it seems
[14:51] <Laurenceb> I mean sure it doesnt come out of your taxes, but its excessive
[14:52] <juxta> you're supposed to pay some sort of TV license in the UK, aren't you?
[14:52] <Laurenceb> I was watching top gear last night
[14:52] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:52] <juxta> I watched top gear also, this morning, which I guess was your last night ;p
[14:52] <Laurenceb> they made a "hybrid car" with a deisel generator and some parts from a milk float
[14:53] <Laurenceb> that one?
[14:54] <juxta> yep :)
[14:54] <juxta> 'geoff'
[14:54] <juxta> or hamerhead eagle ithrust, or something along those lines ;p
[14:55] <Laurenceb> there was a shot of my old house
[14:55] <juxta> oh nice :)
[14:55] <Laurenceb> - me used to like on Banbury road Oxford
[14:55] <Laurenceb> *live
[14:55] <Laurenceb> about 100m down from where they broke down and had to recharge
[14:55] <juxta> hehe
[14:56] <Laurenceb> that was kind of embarrassing
[14:56] <Laurenceb> they could have moved it off the road
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> I was interested in the costs of hybridisng my car.
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> But the batteries are prohibitive.
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> Annoyingly apparanrly a few months ago a123 cells were going very cheap on ebay.
[14:57] <Laurenceb> I've heard a bit about the dewalt cells going cheap
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> Not those
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> the raw unpackaged cells
[14:58] <juxta> i'm off to bed, night guys
[14:58] <Laurenceb> cya
[14:58] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/80-Pcs-New-A123-3-3v-2300-mah-Lithium-Ion-Battery-Cell_W0QQitemZ180434153521QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a02b6b031
[14:58] <SpeedEvil> About a third of that price
[14:58] Action: Laurenceb has been working on some doppler shift apogee prediction code
[14:59] <Laurenceb> its kind of works - I think its possible to make it work
[14:59] <SpeedEvil> Is this with one reciever?
[14:59] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:59] <SpeedEvil> Do two sites help much?
[15:00] <Laurenceb> I was using a metropolis algorithm technique
[15:00] <Laurenceb> havent tried yet, Id guess a lot
[15:00] <Laurenceb> I think its a case of using the right algorithm
[15:00] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[15:00] <Laurenceb> it tends to get stuck in states that give a fairly good fit, but arent correct
[15:01] <Laurenceb> they are local minima in the matching function and it cant find its way out
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> You're doing what - simulating with added noise?
[15:01] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:01] <Laurenceb> about +-0.1 m/s standard error
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> Are the bad states far from the good one?
[15:01] <Laurenceb> - guassian noise
[15:02] <Laurenceb> about 20m/s in most cases
[15:02] <Laurenceb> if you're happy to have errors <100m/s then it always works
[15:02] <Laurenceb> well... sometimes it never reaches a good solution
[15:02] <SpeedEvil> Generally not so useful.
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> Remind me again why you're not just using GPS on the top, and sending the position?
[15:03] <Laurenceb> yeah you can get down to about 1m/s error with 0.1m/s errors on the dopplers
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> Oh - a mass thing
[15:03] <Laurenceb> it will lock up due to speed
[15:03] <Laurenceb> as well
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> Well - yes - stock GPSs
[15:03] <Laurenceb> you could use a gps bitgrapper and downlink the data
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> How many bytes of a sample do you need
[15:04] <Laurenceb> then solve on the ground
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[15:04] <Laurenceb> 1024 bits or so
[15:04] <Laurenceb> may be enough to make it possible
[15:04] <Laurenceb> I just like the simplicity of single station doppler
[15:04] <Laurenceb> as there no extra hardware needed
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> well - other than a txco of some sort.
[15:05] <Laurenceb> I think its possible if you divide state space into boxes
[15:05] <Laurenceb> position is known fairly well and isnt that important to the shape
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[15:05] <SpeedEvil> Two sites seems likely to be an easy fix.
[15:05] <Laurenceb> you can have +-10Km
[15:06] <Laurenceb> then with +-10m/s it seems to converge ok
[15:06] <Laurenceb> I was getting +-1.5m/s with that
[15:06] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[15:06] <SpeedEvil> what's 1.56m/s error 10kmish?
[15:06] <SpeedEvil> on the perigee?
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> I suppose more like 2
[15:19] <Laurenceb> it can survive with 50m/s vertical v error
[15:19] <Laurenceb> but theres the pointing error to consider
[15:25] <Laurenceb> if this can be made to work it could be useful with GPS
[15:25] <Laurenceb> add an IMU and you could have single satellite GPS
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[15:32] <Laurenceb> actually I saw something like this in the journal of navigation
[15:33] <jonsowman> anyone ever tried PSK31 on a balloon?
[15:33] <Laurenceb> only they had the gps correct the IMU for stray magnetism ect. when there was a good fix
[15:33] <Laurenceb> PSK31 is hard
[15:33] <jonsowman> yeh it is
[15:33] <Laurenceb> as you need to create the right phase shift
[15:34] <Laurenceb> not possible with radiometrix modules
[15:34] <jonsowman> hmm
[15:34] <jonsowman> just looking into it a bit, wondering if it was possible with reasonably simple hardware
[15:34] <Laurenceb> might be possible by fudging some registers in a chipcon transceiver
[15:34] <Laurenceb> I've got dominoex working
[15:34] <Laurenceb> with a radiometrix
[15:35] <jonsowman> hmm interesting
[15:36] <Laurenceb> CU spaceflight have made a chipcon based transceiver
[15:36] <Laurenceb> - "badger cub"
[15:36] <jonsowman> yup im part of CUSF - been doing some work on badgercub
[15:37] <jonsowman> might have a further look into PSK at some point
[15:37] <jonsowman> not convinced its really worth it over RTTY though
[15:37] <Laurenceb> oh sorry
[15:37] <Laurenceb> I lose track of poeple on here :P
[15:37] <jonsowman> ah me too, no worries
[15:38] <jonsowman> ive only just come to cambridge, so its a recent thing
[15:38] <Laurenceb> PSK is nice to decode as you can use a PLL
[15:38] <Laurenceb> - phase socked loop
[15:38] <Laurenceb> *locked
[15:38] <jonsowman> yep
[15:38] <jonsowman> the FT817 etc have PSK31 modes inbuilt i believe
[15:39] <jonsowman> its the transmitter thats the hard bit...
[15:39] <Laurenceb> I suspect theres a way to do it with a chipcon
[15:40] <Laurenceb> if you kept the daud rate low you could just use your existing technique of changing the carrier
[15:40] <Laurenceb> *baud
[15:40] <jonsowman> Will talk to fergus and ed about it at the next CUSF meeting
[15:40] <jonsowman> would be a nice thing to get working
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[15:44] <jiffe1> anyone had a problem with the microtrak and/or lassen transmitting the same coordinates regardless of where it is?
[15:45] <jiffe1> we launched a balloon yesterday and after the launch it was transmitting the same coordinates as the launch site for about an hour and then all of a sudden started transmitting correctly
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> Did it indicate it had lock?
[15:47] <jiffe1> I'd have to look at the transmission logs, typically when it doesn't I get null data
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> Does it also say how many sats it has?
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> You're sure you're not doing something that buffers the outgoing stream until it passes checks, and sends that, forex?
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> So if it goes wrong you will resend till you get a good pos
[15:50] <jiffe1> I wasn't doing any buffering, I just have the lassen connected directly to the microtrak, I don't think the microtrak buffers though
[15:52] <jiffe1> we've been testing that rig for a couple months, yesterday was the first time I've seen it transmit the same coords like that though
[15:55] <SpeedEvil> odd
[15:56] <jiffe1> yeah, I'll have to do some more testing to see if I can reproduce that
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> Get the payload back?
[16:09] <Laurenceb> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=308
[16:09] <Laurenceb> natrium42: I'm going to have to report you
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[16:51] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, what up?
[16:51] <Randomskk> !!!!!!!! you guys
[16:51] <Randomskk> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=305
[16:52] <Randomskk> tl;dr: $100 free stuff from sparkfun
[16:52] <Laurenceb> neat
[16:53] <russss> woah, nice
[16:53] <Randomskk> up to $100,000 total expenditure by sparkfun, e.g. like a thousand orders
[16:53] <Randomskk> so get in early :P
[16:54] <russss> it's pretty slow to load
[16:55] <Randomskk> it's not today
[16:55] <Randomskk> no rush
[16:55] <russss> ah ok
[16:55] <Laurenceb> wonder how much business they do
[16:55] <russss> the page didn't load fully enough for me to realise that.
[16:55] <Laurenceb> guess the idea is to raise publicity
[16:55] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, coursework
[16:55] <Randomskk> it's 9AM to 11PM, mountain standard time, Jan 7th 2010
[16:55] <Randomskk> three factors
[16:55] <russss> my birthday! :)
[16:55] <Randomskk> first they feel like giving stuff out for free? apparently they did pretty well in 2009
[16:56] <Randomskk> second they say they wish they could sponsor more groups but can't so are doing this instead
[16:56] <Randomskk> finally they want a good way to load test their new server
[16:56] <Randomskk> oh, and it's their 7th birthday
[16:56] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, not really
[16:56] <AlexBreton> get on spotify
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[18:31] <natrium42> Laurenceb: huh?
[18:31] <Laurenceb> thats where you live isnt it?
[18:31] <natrium42> yeah, rofl
[18:31] <natrium42> wtf
[18:32] <Laurenceb> thats what you would say ;P
[18:32] <natrium42> XD
[18:34] <natrium42> bbl
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[18:58] Nick change: smealum -> prout
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[19:54] <DanielRichman> 1/4 wave antenna elements: just solid core copper wire, that would have otherwise been put to use breadboarding, rjharrison ?
[19:54] <DanielRichman> *have
[20:00] <DanielRichman> bbl
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[20:01] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, are you going to revise for phys test?
[20:01] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, in the morning I guess
[20:01] <AlexBreton> #1 wasteman at his best
[20:02] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, after coursework I'll obviously cba any other work
[20:02] <AlexBreton> fatty :P
[20:02] <AlexBreton> hmmm...I may as well revise now
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[20:05] <jiffe1> the lassen iq still considered a fairly good gps or is there something better to use?
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[20:12] <sbasuita> jiffe1, the lassen is pretty common for normal balloon use but I've heard of high performance ublox gps being used as well
[20:27] <jiffe1> cool
[20:28] <jiffe1> the lassen seems to work alright, only thing I don't like is the fact that it doesn't take interference very well and seems to take a long time to track in
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[20:55] <MikeMc> hello all
[21:02] <sbasuita> MikeMc, hallo
[21:03] <MikeMc> hey
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[21:07] <DanielRichman> Okey: got some solid core breadboardin' wire here. Looks like there's a brown core; copper; but the outside is silver - i'd imagine tin. Antenna-worthy?
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[21:09] <SpeedEvil> works fine
[21:10] <DanielRichman> Groovy. And the length of the radials doesn't matter that much?
[21:10] <DanielRichman> just the driven element should be roughly 16.4 ish
[21:10] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, the more radials the better, infinite length preferably
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> infinite length can be heavy
[21:10] <DanielRichman> true
[21:11] <DanielRichman> while we're at it, let's go travel faster than the speed of light
[21:11] <sbasuita> safe
[21:11] <sbasuita> So what's the optimum lambda/4 length for copper?
[21:12] <DanielRichman> how straight does this wire have to be?
[21:13] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, staple it to the polystyrene?
[21:14] <DanielRichman> ..?
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> just straightish
[21:20] <DanielRichman> ok. and how would i best test how well the antenna works, once i've made it?
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> Place it on a balloon, launch, check range
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> Or a hill/...
[21:21] <DanielRichman> (!)
[21:21] <DanielRichman> :P
[21:21] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, you know the blog has had over 2000 views?
[21:21] <DanielRichman> wat?
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> With a 100/1 power divider or something
[21:21] <DanielRichman> not in one day -.-
[21:22] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, no, but still
[21:22] <DanielRichman> that's nothing then
[21:22] <DanielRichman> measure in visits/day
[21:23] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, it gets maybe a dozen a day
[21:23] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, which is good considering we never post ;P
[21:23] <DanielRichman> mmm
[21:25] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, how well is the stuff inside secured?
[21:26] <DanielRichman> pretty damn well
[21:26] <DanielRichman> nothing moves if i shake
[21:26] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, how?
[21:27] <DanielRichman> ?
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[22:07] <AlexBreton> blog got over 50 hits today
[22:07] <AlexBreton> yesterday 64
[22:07] <natrium42> still below 9000
[22:07] <AlexBreton> true
[22:07] <AlexBreton> we'll get there in the end ;-)
[22:07] <natrium42> updates go a long way :D
[22:08] <Randomskk> hackaday is always good for a few thousand once you launch
[22:08] <natrium42> just make sure to use an arduino XD
[22:08] <Randomskk> at the risk of commentards going "omg its been done bfore wtf lulz"
[22:08] <AlexBreton> we have a bid on the CF card
[22:08] <AlexBreton> OK, 99p
[22:08] <AlexBreton> the start price
[22:09] <AlexBreton> but 9 days left
[22:09] <natrium42> you are this patient?
[22:09] <AlexBreton> it's eBay
[22:09] <natrium42> yeah, but you don't have to choose auctions with that much time left :P
[22:10] <natrium42> it doesn't really make that much of a difference in the final price
[22:10] Action: natrium42 prefers Buy It Now anyway
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[23:20] junderwood (n=chatzill@adsl.jcu.me.uk) left irc: "ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.15/2009101601]"
[23:22] RocketBoy (n=Steve@217.47.75.8) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[23:49] Xenion (n=robert@p57972AF0.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[23:57] Nick change: grummund -> grummund|pedant
[00:00] --- Tue Nov 24 2009