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[02:53] <juxta> morning all
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[07:57] <MikeMc> morning
[08:09] <jonsowman> morning
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[09:46] <juxta> hey MikeMc
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[11:01] <Laurenceb> hi
[11:01] <bt42> hello
[11:07] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/7/_/jupiter_c.jpg
[11:31] <juxta> I did a range test with my radiometrix last night
[11:31] <juxta> (on the ground, albeit)
[11:32] <juxta> I managed about 10km using a ~17cm section of exposed coax core as an antenna on my radio & a whip with ground plane on the payload
[11:44] <Laurenceb> nice
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[12:09] <juxta> as it turns out, my remote fob is in the 434mhz band also
[12:09] <juxta> car remote fob, that is
[12:10] <juxta> it took me a long time to work out why I couldnt unlock my car or switch off the alarm...
[12:10] <gordonjcp> juxta: that happens a lot
[12:10] <russss> heh
[12:11] <juxta> heh, well I was scratching my head for a while
[12:11] <gordonjcp> juxta: all kinds of small wireless link devices
[12:11] <juxta> i walked out to the car carrying the payload, tried to open it, no go, so i put the payload down on the ground and tried a few times
[12:11] <juxta> then I got my spare keys, of course leaving the payload next to the car
[12:11] <juxta> so they didnt work either
[12:11] <juxta> ;p
[12:17] <gordonjcp> heh
[12:18] <juxta> this is the range I managed to get
[12:18] <juxta> http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Radio-test1.jpg
[12:18] <juxta> elevation was about 300m, not a very good line of sight though
[12:19] <Laurenceb> how did you do that?
[12:19] <Laurenceb> tethered balloon?
[12:20] <juxta> oh, no, just drove up a hill :D
[12:20] <juxta> 300m is about the highest hill here, it's pretty damn flat around where I live
[12:21] <Laurenceb> ah
[12:21] <gordonjcp> juxta: you need some high rise buildings that you can blag roof access to
[12:22] <juxta> gordonjcp: yeah - I've contemplated asking my employer, I'm pretty sure that our MD would be interested, he's into this sort of thing, but I think the highest building we have is ~6 stories
[12:23] <juxta> not exactly high rise
[12:23] <gordonjcp> juxta: heh
[12:23] <gordonjcp> juxta: I'm about to go up a 23-storey building at just about the highest point in Glasgow
[12:23] <juxta> nice - for tracking?
[12:24] <gordonjcp> no, customer site visit
[12:24] <juxta> the tallest building we have in Adelaide is 31 floors it seems
[12:25] <gordonjcp> bollocks, that's the rain on
[12:25] <juxta> it rained here today, surprisingly. it was 43 degrees C yesterday =\
[12:27] <Laurenceb> gordonjcp: what do you do?
[12:27] <gordonjcp> I fix radios ;-)
[12:28] <Laurenceb> cool
[12:28] <gordonjcp> right now I hang around in the workshop going "fucking weather" and fiddling with Motorola Canopy wireless bridges that I can't install until I get a dry day
[12:28] <Laurenceb> as in HAM radios?
[12:28] <gordonjcp> mostly pmr
[12:28] <Laurenceb> commercial stuff?
[12:28] <gordonjcp> my boss is an amateur too though
[12:29] <gordonjcp> so there are quite a few old PMR sets in circulation among our mates, programmed up for 2m and 70cm
[12:29] <juxta> gordonjcp: I work for an ISP, we have some canopy gear out there - how heavily is it used in Scotland?
[12:30] <gordonjcp> not very
[12:30] <gordonjcp> well, I haven't run across it much
[12:30] <juxta> do you deal with WiMax gear much?
[12:30] <gordonjcp> not really, we don't really do wireless networking here
[12:30] <juxta> ah righto
[12:31] <gordonjcp> at my last wireless-y job we used Alvarion VL and orthogon gemini/spectra quite a lot
[12:32] <gordonjcp> right now I've got 5700AP and 5700SM modules, and no real way to upgrade them past 7.3.6
[12:33] <juxta> we use the alvarion gear mainly I believe
[12:33] <juxta> though we have a few canopy links too
[12:33] <juxta> serving a rural broadband/voice network
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[12:36] <gordonjcp> juxta: any joy on getting CNUT 2.2 to run on a modern machine?
[12:40] <juxta> heh, no idea gordonjcp, I don't have to deal with that ;p
[12:40] <juxta> I gather we're moving away from the canopy's where we can though
[12:45] Action: Laurenceb doesnt really follow
[12:45] <Laurenceb> what are you talking about?
[12:46] <juxta> the motorola canopy is a wireless broadband platform Laurenceb
[12:46] <Laurenceb> ah
[12:47] <juxta> typically a replacement for last mile technologies like cable or DSL
[12:47] <Laurenceb> I see
[12:48] <juxta> those sorts of things get used a bit here, given that we have low population density in lots of places, and the infratsructure for DSL and the like is not cost viable in those areas
[12:56] <juxta> Laurenceb: I'm pretty keen to get my payload added to the tracker to do some testing, do you know who to speak to about it?
[12:57] <Laurenceb> natrium42
[12:57] <Laurenceb> I think
[12:57] Action: Laurenceb hasnt used it
[12:58] <juxta> cheers, I'll shoot him an email :)
[12:59] <Laurenceb> I'd try jcoxon
[12:59] <Laurenceb> he organised it
[12:59] <juxta> alright - I'll hang around and see if he comes online ;p
[13:00] <DanielRichman> juxta, talk to rjharrison
[13:00] <DanielRichman> he hosts the main bit of it iirc.
[13:00] <juxta> haha
[13:00] <juxta> okay
[13:00] <RocketBoy> jcoxon and rjharrison are your men for the tracker
[13:00] <juxta> okay, it's settled then :)
[13:23] <Laurenceb> http://www.redstone.army.mil/history/explorer/expfotos/JUPITER%20C%20diagram.jpg
[13:23] <Laurenceb> interesting stuff
[13:23] <Laurenceb> really simple
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[13:58] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, can we build the payload tomorrow/
[13:58] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, erm, not sure
[13:59] <Laurenceb> lol
[13:59] <juxta> hey DanielRichman, sbasuita: I read your blog a while little while ago - what happened with your celotex idea?
[13:59] <Laurenceb> if only youd said that 6 months ago
[14:00] <sbasuita> juxta, hah, we haven't updated the blog in ages, sorry
[14:00] <sbasuita> juxta, basically we had trouble getting the celotex and then thought it wasnt really worth it anyway
[14:01] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, i'm off to simon's now anyway. talk to you tongiht
[14:01] <juxta> ah righto
[14:01] <DanielRichman> juxta, terrible customer service
[14:02] <DanielRichman> "we'll deliver monday... maybe monday after.. etc."
[14:02] <juxta> damn
[14:02] <juxta> DanielRichman: any idea on when you'll be launching?
[14:03] <DanielRichman> juxta, "soon"
[14:03] <juxta> heh
[14:03] <DanielRichman> we'll be building payload this weekend, for sure
[14:03] <juxta> nice :D
[14:04] <juxta> DanielRichman: what's the IC in the top right (or bottom left) of your comp board?
[14:04] <juxta> http://alienproject.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/computer-close.jpg
[14:05] <Laurenceb> I'd recommend gorilla glue
[14:07] <Laurenceb> also building insulation foams tend to be poor quality
[14:07] <Laurenceb> I've used blue foam from ebay before, its way more consistent
[14:07] <Laurenceb> having said that the more expensive stuff like kingspan might have better quality control
[14:08] <DanielRichman> juxta, top right is a opto isolator; no longer used
[14:08] <juxta> ah righto
[14:08] <DanielRichman> gotta go; will be back later
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[14:38] <Laurenceb> http://tinyurl.com/yk6q5yh
[14:40] <Laurenceb> three methods we considered. The one was by measuring the acceleration and then calculating from the acceleration and the velocity. The other one would be by Doppler, by Doppler signal. And the third would be radar
[14:41] <Laurenceb> looks like the doppler fitting idea
[14:42] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[14:43] <russss> they're firing up the LHC again http://op-webtools.web.cern.ch/op-webtools/vistar/vistars.php?usr=LHC1
[14:43] <russss> I love the screens they have, heh
[14:50] <Laurenceb> bah its impossible to come up with new ideas
[14:50] <Laurenceb> they have all already been had
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[14:55] <Laurenceb> The results obtained with these three independent apex prediction methods were introduced into a small calculator which enabled us to evaluate the quality of the three inputs. For example, if one prediction was based upon readings of poor quality, it could be disregarded
[14:56] <Laurenceb> from here - http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redstone.army.mil%2Fhistory%2Fpdf%2Fsat%2Fsat.pdf&ei=f6wGS7TbJoqj4QaIxODFCw&usg=AFQjCNE8LWwjSGE8CJ55ERkPwjao57FvLQ
[14:59] <SpeedEvil> Pretty much.
[14:59] <SpeedEvil> Though with a smart lawyer, you can still patent them.
[14:59] <Laurenceb> its so close to my nprize idea its uncanny
[15:00] <Laurenceb> the pdf is a very thorough explanation of the whole thing
[15:00] <Laurenceb> bbl
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[15:15] <Laurenceb> interesting that they have to use the radar to find the position and then correct the gyro attitude to get it horizontal
[15:15] <Laurenceb> one advantage of horizon/sun sensing
[15:17] <Laurenceb> "From post-launch tracking data, we learned that the angle under which the fourth stage entered orbit was, in respect to the local horizon, as little as 0.81 degrees off"
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - fun.
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[16:37] <Laurenceb> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9060
[16:37] <Laurenceb> interesting comments
[16:37] <Laurenceb> looks like the latency is as you might predict
[16:37] <Laurenceb> - pretty poor
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> 10Hz!= 10 independant measurements/sec?
[16:43] <Laurenceb> seems to be the case
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[17:35] <Laurenceb> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/20/lhc_feedback_roundup/ <-lol
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[17:51] <edmoore> evening everyone
[17:51] <Randomskk> hi
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[22:52] <juxta> hi edmoore - are you around?
[22:52] <edmoore> yep
[22:53] <juxta> I was hoping I could bug you for some more advice re antennas ;p
[22:53] <edmoore> shoot
[22:54] <juxta> I've been building up my payload, using a 1/4 wave with ground plane as the tx antenna
[22:55] <juxta> was having a chat to rjharrison and others, they suggested using 1/4 wave as the radial length, and (0.95 * 1/4 wave) as the driven element length
[22:55] <juxta> was wondering if you could shed some light :)
[22:56] <edmoore> ok, though give me a few mins as gf is just on phone
[22:57] <juxta> haha - sure
[23:00] <edmoore> ok
[23:00] <edmoore> so an antenna is a length of something conductive
[23:00] <edmoore> and in order to radiate the most electromagnetic energy for a given input, you want it to resonate
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> Or maybe dielectric
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> a lens forex
[23:01] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: go and sit on the naughty pedant's step
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> As I understand it, that's not _quite_ true.
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> you can match any antenna so it is an efficient radiator
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> (modulo losses in the copper due to excessive currents)
[23:02] <edmoore> so anyway, you want your antenna to resonate at the input frequency, for max efficiency
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> This is what an antenna tuner is for.
[23:03] <edmoore> so for this design, it calls for 1/4 wave elements
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> Resonance also does something to the radiation patterns.
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> aha
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> http://www-antenna.ee.titech.ac.jp/~hira/hobby/edu/em/dipole/index.html
[23:04] <juxta> I followed that much edmoore, was wondering about the shortened driven element (95% length)
[23:04] <edmoore> and as the speed of light is different in different mediums, you want the length to be correct for the piece of copper you're using
[23:05] <juxta> ahh, righto
[23:05] <edmoore> so basically, it is still a quarter wavelength long, but the speed of light/em is not 3e8 anymore
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> AIUI, it's not so much the copper
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> it's the impedence the copper has with the universe that sets the velocity
[23:05] <edmoore> well, the coupling between copper and surroundings
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[23:06] <juxta> ah, I see
[23:06] <edmoore> so you'l often see co-axial cable has a velocity factor
[23:06] <edmoore> eg 0.7
[23:06] <juxta> relatively sure that the old coathanger I used is not copper, I guess the dfference is not too huge though
[23:07] <edmoore> so when you have to make a 1/4 wavelength matching section out of co-ax, make sure it is 1/4 wavelength eleectrical length, rather than physicl length
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> Probably steel or aluminium.
[23:07] <edmoore> the actual metal probably makes almost no difference
[23:07] <juxta> yeah, it's steel
[23:07] <edmoore> but it's useful for it to be smooth
[23:07] <edmoore> as all the current is carried on the very surface of the metal at that frequency thanks to skin effect
[23:08] <juxta> yeah
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> Also steel has _sucky_ resistivity
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> compared to most anything else.
[23:15] <juxta> edmoore - so does the electrical length of the ground plane not come into play all that much?
[23:15] <juxta> or can the cround plane comfortably have longer elements without degrading performance?
[23:15] <juxta> ground*
[23:15] <edmoore> so it's in theory an infinite groundplane
[23:15] <edmoore> and you're just making a practical approximation of that
[23:16] <Randomskk> approximation of an infinite plane, nice :P
[23:16] <edmoore> the more radilas the better, the longer the better, but some 1/4 length ones are fine
[23:16] <juxta> that's what I figured
[23:16] <edmoore> or rather, the minimum
[23:16] <juxta> yeah
[23:17] <juxta> so the velocity factor of copper is around .95?
[23:18] <edmoore> yeah, although i don't think you'll notice any difference if you just make it 17.5cm
[23:18] <juxta> alright
[23:18] <juxta> it's ~17.5 currently, i figured it'd be easy enough to chop some off rather than try to add some later ;p
[23:21] <edmoore> :)
[23:21] <edmoore> 
[23:21] <edmoore> you can tune it with an SWR meter, infact
[23:21] <edmoore> which is a useful purchase for ham stuff
[23:21] <juxta> yeah, i reckon I can borrow one from my uncle ;p
[23:23] <juxta> I did a bit of a test with it the another night, i managed to get 10km & still decode data
[23:23] <juxta> not a real line of sight though, nor did I have an appropriate rx antenna
[23:24] <edmoore> LoS makes all the difference. 10km is good
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[23:25] <juxta> yeah, figured so
[23:25] <juxta> I had about 300m of elevation at one end
[23:25] <juxta> on flat ground i got about 3km
[23:25] <juxta> http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Radio-test1.jpg
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[00:00] --- Sat Nov 21 2009