highaltitude.log.20091118

[00:52] <juxta> SpeedEvil - are you around?
[00:53] <SpeedEvil> Maybe.
[00:53] <juxta> heh - I was wondering if I could bug you for some advice ;p
[00:54] <juxta> I'm trying to think of a way to close a circuit to trigger my cameras
[00:55] <juxta> I thought of using a transistor connected to a GPIO pin, but the cameras and the micro don't share a power source, so I'm not sure if this would work without connecting their grounds...
[00:56] <SpeedEvil> Does it activate with a ~1K resistor?
[00:56] <SpeedEvil> If so, an optocoupler may work well
[00:57] <SpeedEvil> just connect the phototransistor in parallel with the switch
[00:57] <juxta> yeah, I suspect it would, my finger does the job OK, so I guess a resistor should work
[00:57] <juxta> I'd thought about an optocoupler, but I haven't got any ;p
[00:58] <juxta> am I right in assuming it wouldn't work with a transistor because of the seperate grounds?
[00:58] <SpeedEvil> I've got lots
[00:58] <SpeedEvil> Well - it might - but then you are connecting the grounds at some random point
[00:58] <SpeedEvil> you can pull an optocoupler out of most any broken mains PSU
[00:58] <juxta> oh really?
[00:59] <juxta> as in computer PSU's?
[00:59] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MCT6-OPTOCOUPLER-IC-x-5_W0QQitemZ350280378471QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET?hash=item518e566867
[00:59] <SpeedEvil> or just buy them - they are not expensive
[00:59] <SpeedEvil> yes
[00:59] <juxta> my local store has MOC3020/MOC3021
[00:59] <juxta> and 4n28/4n25
[01:00] <juxta> the rest are SMD, or pricey
[01:00] <juxta> I'll checkout a PSU, I've got a broken one lying about somewhere :D
[01:00] <juxta> thanks for that SpeedEvil :)
[01:01] <SpeedEvil> Generally it's quite obvious
[01:02] <SpeedEvil> it's the only bridge between the low voltage and high voltage sides - well - apart from the transformer
[01:02] <juxta> alrighty
[01:03] <juxta> looks like I might need to switch the optocoupler with a transistor too, the datasheet for the one I'm looking at suggests 50ma drive current
[01:04] <juxta> will see if it'll run on less though
[01:04] <SpeedEvil> It has a current transfer ratio
[01:04] <SpeedEvil> At - say - 5V between the collector and the emitter of the transistor - if you apply 1mA to the LED, you get 10mA out
[01:04] <SpeedEvil> 2mA, 20mA
[01:04] <SpeedEvil> this would be a current transfer ratio of 1000%
[01:05] <SpeedEvil> As voltage drops, the current transfer ratio will drop too
[01:05] <SpeedEvil> but it's a good indication
[01:05] <juxta> hmm
[01:05] <juxta> the one I'm looking at doesn't seem to have a transistor in the schematic
[01:06] <juxta> just an LED and a photodiode or something
[01:06] <juxta> http://jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/ZD1920.pdf
[01:06] <juxta> ah, also seems to be designed for 240VAC, hmm
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> That's not a diode
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> it's an optotriac
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> completely unsuitable for what you want
[01:07] <juxta> hhaha
[01:07] <juxta> alrighty
[01:07] <juxta> http://jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/ZD1928.pdf
[01:07] <juxta> something like that perhaps?
[01:10] <juxta> the MCT6 you linked me to would be great, if I can find anyone who sells it here, or wait a while for it to be shipped
[01:11] <SpeedEvil> the second one looks fine
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[01:14] <juxta> thanks SpeedEvil, I'll get hold of a few and rig up my cameras :)
[01:14] <SpeedEvil> In general - if a 1K resistor works - it'll work
[01:17] <juxta> will test the resistor now
[01:20] <juxta> works perfectly!
[01:22] <SpeedEvil> :)
[01:22] <juxta> thanks a bunch speedevil
[01:22] <juxta> SpeedEvil*
[01:22] <juxta> I'll grab a few of the optocouplers tonight
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[07:40] <MikeMc> morning
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[08:06] <rjharrison> The wiki is running ssssssssslllllllllllllloooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
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[08:40] <rjharrison> Morin MikeMc
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[09:45] <juxta> evening all
[09:47] <rjharrison> evening juxta
[09:47] <juxta> hey rjharrison, i saw that scan of the Sun, nice work :)
[09:48] <juxta> were there any other pages? sadly i can't buy the Sun here ;p
[09:48] <rjharrison> hehe there is a video here http://www.robertharrison.org/images/various/The%20Sun%2040th%20Anniversary%20Video.flv
[09:48] <rjharrison> the article is here http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/40th/2733114/The-Sun-launches-birthday-edition-21-miles-into-space.html
[09:50] <juxta> nice :D
[09:51] <juxta> what camera did you have onboard rjharrison?
[09:51] <rjharrison> In fact it's on the news section in the front page of the ukhas wiki
[09:51] <rjharrison> Canon a560
[09:51] <rjharrison> with CHDK running on it
[09:52] <juxta> ah righto - do you use custom settings for exposure control? I want something I can run CHDK on for my next launch so that i can have some shutter priority, the cameras I have are very limited
[09:54] <rjharrison> I just set it to manual and then let the camera do the work
[09:54] <rjharrison> Pics seem ok to me
[09:54] <rjharrison> http://ukhas.org.uk/
[09:54] <juxta> set it to auto, rather?
[09:55] <juxta> yeah, pics look great :D
[09:55] <juxta> how regularly do you take photos?
[09:57] <rjharrison> Manual actually but Manual is quite like auto compared to an SLR camera
[09:57] <rjharrison> 8pics 2 min video 3 min sleep (Loop)
[09:57] <rjharrison> Manual allow you to tun of flash and some other options
[09:58] <juxta> ah righto
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[10:14] <rjharrison> The wiki seems to be going very slow again! I think the time is comming to either fix the problem or move to an alternative server
[10:16] <juxta> rjharrison: yeah - I notice it a lot
[10:16] <firehose> rjharrison: seconded. It's a bit creeky
[10:18] <juxta> I just figured it was hosted on someone's personal DSL connection or something ;p
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[10:29] <rjharrison> I'll have a chat with jcoxon and see what we can do to improve the situation as we're slowly getting more and more traffic to the site
[10:32] <MikeMc> very slow toda
[10:43] <MikeMc> ...y
[10:43] <MikeMc> where is the server? is it a personal PC or is it hosted space?
[10:57] <juxta> rjharrison: was your payload sprayed black to get some warmth from the sun?
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[11:03] <[EI5GTB]> morning
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[11:13] <MikeMc> morning
[11:14] <MikeMc> wouldn't black also cause black body radiation to cool the payload once it gets up high too?
[11:14] <russss> well I suspect the net effect would be heating during the day
[11:15] <russss> but if you're flying it at night it would definitely be detrimental
[11:15] <juxta> I'd say so too, esp considering the thinner atmosphere & higher sunlight intensity at high alt
[11:16] <SpeedEvil> visible black is not IR black
[11:16] <SpeedEvil> white or black paint tends to be the same at mid-IR
[11:17] <SpeedEvil> as it's the binder, not the pigment that emits largely
[11:26] <MikeMc> so a payload coveed in a reflective foil would be best?
[11:28] <russss> well if you're a satellite then that's definitely the case. But I think heating tends to be a bigger problem than cooling on sats
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[11:32] <ms7821> oh, I thought they always had to keep temp up...
[11:34] <russss> well, there's zero convection, so it's quite easy to have the light side of the satellite at like +50, and the dark side at -200
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[11:58] <juxta> hey SpeedEvil, I picked up those optocouplers today, thanks for your advice on that
[11:59] <juxta> (after the shop guy insisted that they didn't sell optocouplers OR LDO 5v regs for ages)
[12:13] <SpeedEvil> :)
[12:37] <juxta> making a ground plane for a 1/4 wave whip on the payload - do the radials need to be 1/4 wave long also? will it be detrimental if they're longer than 1/4 wave, so long as the emitter remains at 1/4 wave?
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[12:42] <rjharrison> What freq?
[12:42] <rjharrison> juxta
[12:42] <rjharrison> oh 70cm
[12:43] <rjharrison> radials (70/4) driven(70/4)*0.95
[12:45] <juxta> cheers rjharrison - can you explain why the radials are shorter?
[12:46] <rjharrison> longer?
[12:46] <juxta> err, yeah, that ;p
[12:47] <rjharrison> Not really it's just the rule of thumb
[12:47] <rjharrison> One sec
[12:47] <juxta> alrighty
[12:47] <juxta> so I'm figuring 17.2cm as 1/4 of 434.65
[12:47] <juxta> and I guess 16.3 or so fort he driven element
[12:47] <rjharrison> http://www.csgnetwork.com/antennagpcalc.html
[12:47] <rjharrison> Yep
[12:48] <rjharrison> This will give the measurments in meters
[12:48] <juxta> hmm, that gives the same length for the radials as for the driven ;p
[12:48] <rjharrison> Humm ask rocketboy or edmoore there is a reason
[12:49] <juxta> alright, cheers :)
[12:49] <rjharrison> I have used the above formula and it's good for 300+km
[12:49] <juxta> this is going to be fun - I knew I should have soldered the antenna connections *before* I glued the payload together
[12:55] <rjharrison> hehe
[12:55] <rjharrison> Any pics of the payload yet junderwood
[12:55] <rjharrison> juxta
[12:56] <junderwood> Phew!
[12:56] <naxxfish> anyone know of a reasonable free 3D cad software?
[12:59] <rjharrison> juxta, http://www.qsl.net/wrav/2mground.htm
[12:59] <juxta> naxxfish: google sketchup?
[12:59] <rjharrison> junderwood, hehe sorry
[13:00] <juxta> rjharrison: I'm at work right now, but I'll take some when I get home and put them on the blog :)
[13:00] <rjharrison> juxta, any pics or web pages on your project?
[13:00] <rjharrison> Cool
[13:00] <naxxfish> juxta: is that going to be OK for doing mechanical stuffs? I used it a while back and it was a bit faffy for that ..
[13:00] <juxta> blog is at www.projecthorus.org rjharrison
[13:00] <juxta> no idea naxxfish, I tried to use it and nearly threw my laptop at the wall in frustration ;p
[13:01] <naxxfish> lol, same here >_<
[13:01] <juxta> i hear good things though ;p
[13:01] <naxxfish> BRL-CAD is free ... but oh my goodness it'd take you a year just to set it up
[13:02] <juxta> heh, I have memories of CAD class in high school
[13:02] <naxxfish> i used parametric pro/desktop in school ... it was alright I suppose
[13:02] <juxta> horrible abused & slow 800mhz machines struggling to run their OS'es, let alone turbocad or whatever we were using
[13:03] <naxxfish> it could export STL file which we could import onto the CAM mills
[13:03] <juxta> nice
[13:03] <naxxfish> it was rather unstable and used to frequently crash
[13:05] <naxxfish> we used pink insulating foam on the CAM mills ... that stuff just follows me around lol
[13:08] <juxta> is foam expensive evrywhere? or just here?
[13:08] <juxta> it cost me about $17 for a 600x1200mm sheet of 50mm polystyrene the other day
[13:08] <naxxfish> i've never bought it ... i always get scrap from somewhere
[13:08] <juxta> or maybe 600x900
[13:09] <juxta> i got foamy foam cheaply, the kind of stuff you find in cushions I guess
[13:09] <juxta> a giant bag for a few dollars, I'll never use it all
[13:09] <SpeedEvil> juxta: that is fairly expensive
[13:09] <juxta> but the polystyrene was pretty steep
[13:09] <SpeedEvil> juxta: but only about IIRC twice what I've paid
[13:09] <juxta> everything is expensive here
[13:10] <naxxfish> not sure what it's called, but it's the foam you put into walls for insulation
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> Foam is really cheap to ship. They just extrude a ship from it, glue an engine on, and then slice it up at destination.
[13:10] <naxxfish> lots better than plain old polystyrene
[13:10] <juxta> those optocouplers cost me $2 each or something SpeedEvil, plus I think $7 (!!!?!?!!) for a lm2940
[13:10] <naxxfish> SpeedEvil: lol
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> juxta: that's a bit steep - but not horribly so - for a actual store
[13:12] <juxta> i generally get stuff from futurlec.com
[13:12] <juxta> common stuff that i'll need lots of
[13:12] <juxta> it'squite cheap there, i think when I ordered an IC pack it cost about $5 for probably 30 or so IC's
[13:13] <juxta> lots of regs, op amps, comparators, timers, that kind of stuff
[13:14] <juxta> 50 it seems for $7.50
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[13:38] <rjharrison> Not Google maps but interesting http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8366190.stm
[13:40] <ms7821> well that's unexpected
[13:40] <russss> it's very promising, but I'm waiting till I see the final licenses before I make any judgements.
[13:40] <naxxfish> http://data.gov.uk/ ... lol
[13:41] <naxxfish> it's a Google group XD
[13:41] <russss> also as I understand it, it wasn't all maps. It was just postcode "areas", and boundary line data.
[13:41] <russss> naxxfish: there is actually a site behind it but you have to apply for it.
[13:41] <russss> it's got Berners-Lee written all over it though
[13:41] <SpeedEvil> Lots of discussion on #openstreetmap on irc.oftc.com about that
[13:41] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison:
[13:42] <SpeedEvil> 'free data' - has _so_ many holes that might make it functionally lots less usable.
[13:42] <russss> yep
[13:42] <russss> public domain or GTFP
[13:42] <russss> GTFO :P
[13:42] <SpeedEvil> For example - if the free data is simply a raster map, that you may not actually copy data from, or derive data from it.
[13:43] <ms7821> but presumably it includes postcodes...
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> See http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/costs_to_central_and_local_gover#incoming-52363
[13:43] <russss> well the Ordnance Survey don't administer the postcode database.
[13:43] <russss> although they do distribute it
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> Local and central government pay 50m a year for OS products
[13:43] <russss> they mentioned it would include postcode "areas"
[13:43] <naxxfish> they have a license to distrbute postcode data though
[13:44] <russss> but that might be just the incode (i.e. the first half)
[13:44] <ms7821> russss: that's the interesting thing. that could just the bbc guessing
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> There is reportedly to be a consulation come december.
[13:44] <naxxfish> first half of the postcode is pretty useless
[13:44] <russss> well here's the actual press release. Make of it what you will. http://www.communities.gov.uk/news/corporate/1385429
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> I am currently preparing my several-page response.
[13:45] <SpeedEvil> Basically - of the general form of russss's comment - but more verbose.
[13:45] <russss> "mid scale mapping information"
[13:45] <naxxfish> high quality geospatial information
[13:45] <naxxfish> :o
[13:46] <russss> tbh even if it's just the boundary line data (electoral boundaries) that makes me happy
[13:46] <russss> it's a travesty that you have to use non-public-domain data to work out who your elected representative is at the moment
[13:46] <SpeedEvil> That is a ridiculously low case though.
[13:47] <russss> it's useful for what I'm interested in. "mid-scale" mapping data is nice but not really that useful to anyone
[13:47] <ms7821> "mid-scale digital mapping information" must mean rasters/paths
[13:47] <ms7821> well it'll presumably have streets, but not individual buildings
[13:48] <russss> and obviously if they have the full poscode data that'd be great.
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/17/hellads_phase_iv_contracts/ - check out later in the article :)
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[15:28] <rjharrison> PIng Randomskk
[15:28] <rjharrison> opps
[15:28] <rjharrison> ping RocketBoy|Zzzzzz
[15:28] <rjharrison> http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/leeds/hi/people_and_places/nature/newsid_8366000/8366683.stm
[15:38] <jonsowman> well done rob, thats great :)
[15:38] Action: SpeedEvil realises that the name icarus was a cunning plan for all these years!
[15:38] <russss> nice :)
[15:42] <naxxfish> did it transmit the images back to ground?
[15:43] <naxxfish> also, awesome :D
[15:52] Nick change: RocketBoy|Zzzzzz -> RocketBoy
[15:53] <RocketBoy> cool
[15:54] <RocketBoy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDL7R6r2uyc
[15:57] <RocketBoy> and http://www.bbc.co.uk/pudsey/
[16:01] Nick change: RocketBoy -> RocketBoy|Away
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[16:02] <Laurenceb> hi
[16:03] <Laurenceb> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8366190.stm
[16:04] <Laurenceb> I dont get it
[16:04] <Laurenceb> the point of OS is the elevation data
[16:04] <SpeedEvil> ?
[16:04] <Laurenceb> how cares about any of that other stupidity
[16:05] <Laurenceb> "The move will allow people to interpret public statistics about crime, health and education by postcode, local authority or electoral boundary."
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> Lots of people.
[16:05] <russss> people care about lots of things
[16:05] <Laurenceb> you can get that data from loads of places
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> You cannot - for example - print a map of rights of way in the UK - without getting a license from the OS
[16:05] <Laurenceb> yeah ok maybe rights of way
[16:05] <Laurenceb> but the point of OS is the elevation data
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> There is absolutely no way - as the council definitive maps are based on the OS map.
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> As are maps of public toilets by councils, ...
[16:06] <Laurenceb> also isnt OS now a government owned plc ?
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> And openstreetmap could with the data be a real free alternative for routing purposes for example - in the next couple of years - ratehr than the next 5 or so.
[16:07] <SpeedEvil> elevation data is already avaialbel
[16:07] <SpeedEvil> google shuttle realtime topography mission
[16:07] <SpeedEvil> err
[16:07] <SpeedEvil> radar topology
[16:08] <Laurenceb> yes but the quality of OS data is way better than anything else
[16:08] <SpeedEvil> though at 90m raster outside the US
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[16:13] <Laurenceb> they seem to have missed the point entirely - OS has the best elevation data of the UK by far whilst you can already find most of the other stuff
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> No, you can't.
[16:13] <Laurenceb> maybe not footpaths
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> There is almost no source of most of the other stuff that is not under very strict license conditions.
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> Or very old.
[16:14] <russss> even openstreetmap is nowhere near the same league as the OS for vector maps
[16:14] <SpeedEvil> russss: Not most places, no.
[16:15] <russss> "most places"
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> russss: In some places, it's better than the commonly used maps - but those places are not widespread.
[16:15] <russss> yeah
[16:15] <russss> I agree
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> However - the spread of the decent areas is _very_ rapid comparatively.
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[16:17] <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FAQ#Why_are_you_making_OpenStreetMap.3F
[16:19] <Laurenceb> that sucks
[16:21] <Laurenceb> I assumed it was possible to do stuff like street maps fairly easily
[16:21] <Laurenceb> due to the amount of stuff with street maps ect included
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> They basically all pay.
[16:22] <Laurenceb> even some shop who include a map on their fliers?
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> Teleatlas and navteq are the big providers, along with national providers like OS, ...
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> yes
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> That is certainly not permitted by OS.
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> Without a license.
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> And google has very strict conditions on that too - it may be forbidden, I don't recall.
[16:23] <Laurenceb> yeah it is
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> Fundamentally because google do not own their mapping info.
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> And for google to buy a license that permittd redistribution would be _much_ more expensive.
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> One of the reasons I've suspected they're so interested in streetview.
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> Streetview + OCR + humans = your own high quality map that you don't need to pay anyone for.
[16:25] <Laurenceb> ah
[16:25] <russss> SpeedEvil: in the USA google is now 100% using their own mapping info
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> russss: yes. Though I understood it to be under 100%
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> russss: In the US, they can use tiger data to underly the map - which is useful in some cases.
[16:25] <russss> well you can find out because if you zoom in on google maps it lists the copyright
[16:26] <russss> true
[16:27] <Laurenceb> anyway the data that article gives is mostly published by local councils ect
[16:28] <Laurenceb> e.g. west midland police have a scrollable crime map
[16:28] <Laurenceb> most of what they are talking about is a fancy GUI
[16:28] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: It's not.
[16:28] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: The councils that do that have to generally buy licenses to show this data from OS
[16:29] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Local and central governmnet spent 50 million on licensing or so last year.
[16:29] <Laurenceb> they could use other map sources, e.g. google
[16:29] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: No, they can't.
[16:29] <Laurenceb> their data s released free
[16:29] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: as the data has been generated with reference to OS maps. There is no legal way to display it at the moemnt without an OS license.
[16:30] <Laurenceb> its usually by postcode
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> And the postcode is copyright the post office, who also require high license fees.
[16:30] <Laurenceb> surely not
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> Yup.
[16:31] <Laurenceb> police record incident - write down the postcode
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> Yes - but geocoding that back to a lat/lon requires some database.
[16:31] <russss> ah
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> And that database requires a license to use, and the post office currently licenses it at expensive rates.
[16:31] <russss> this is a tricky legal area
[16:31] <Laurenceb> http://www.myneighbourhood.info/myn2/html/home
[16:32] <russss> reading one point off a map is not a derivative work, although the OS would like to make you think it is.
[16:32] <Laurenceb> so the postcode to location requires a license?
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> http://freethepostcode.org/
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> russss: the problem is that reading one point off isn't. But what about 15000.
[16:32] <Laurenceb> hah thats redicouls
[16:32] <Laurenceb> cant you just use google maps?
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> At some point you come into 'database right' law - which protects databases from substantive copying.
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> Google maps have their own conditions.
[16:33] <russss> yeah the law there is a bit tricky
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> They aren't free - as in speech.
[16:33] <russss> especially since the OS are spreading their own FUD about it
[16:33] <Laurenceb> yes but who would know
[16:33] <Laurenceb> add noise to the data
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Google actually does take cases against people who infringe.
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> They have to.
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> Or they are violating their terms of service with their data providers.
[16:34] <Laurenceb> yes but if someone replicated that freethepostcode thingy using google maps
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> google also uses ordnance survey data
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> Some of the claims the OS makes are very dodgy.
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> But.
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> Can openstreetmap - for example - afford to defend a case against it.
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> Especially when you might get a judge that issues an injunction to take all the servers.
[16:37] <russss> they have a lot of pro bono lawyers on their side
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[16:38] <SpeedEvil> Doesn't mean that choosing to become the test case for a body that might spend a million or two in court costs is a good idea.
[16:38] <russss> I think it would be a pretty bad PR move for OS to sue OSM
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> Good point I saw in a blog.
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> How many 14-24 year olds do you know that have purchased an OS paper map.
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[16:41] <russss> :wq!
[16:41] <russss> oops, heh
[16:41] <russss> well I suspect most of OS's revenue comes from their online sales these days
[16:42] Nick change: RocketBoy|Away -> RocketBoy
[16:42] <russss> but for example I wouldn't want to go walking in the country without an OS map, still (not that I do it that often)
[16:42] <SpeedEvil> yes ~50m/year to local and central government
[16:43] <russss> which is stupid because they're owned by the government
[16:43] <russss> it's a ridiculous piece of internal accounting.
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> Indeed
[16:45] <russss> it should all be public domain
[16:45] <russss> that's how the US works
[16:45] <russss> (predominantly)
[16:47] <SpeedEvil> I'mnot sure I agree with all.
[16:47] <SpeedEvil> But most.
[16:47] <russss> Anything that they don't agree with being public domain should be spun off into a proper independent company
[16:48] <russss> which has an incentive to innovate
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[16:52] <rjharrison> A little bit more publicity http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/leeds/hi/people_and_places/nature/newsid_8366000/8366683.stm
[16:59] Action: Hiena fumes
[17:01] <Hiena> Did you heard about the Formula Student Race? The local team got a sponsor which donated all material for a carbon fibre body.
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[17:36] <MikeMc> Evening all
[17:38] <jonsowman> evening MikeMc
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[17:46] <RocketBoy> yo jcoxon
[17:46] <jcoxon> hey RocketBoy
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[17:47] <rjharrison> Hey RocketBoy I liked the pugsey
[17:47] <rjharrison> That was from your launch I guess
[17:48] <RocketBoy> yeah XABEN9
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[17:48] <rjharrison> They have really spruced it with the headlines looks very exciting
[17:49] <rjharrison> Shame about the ice
[17:49] <RocketBoy> yeah - the music really helps
[17:49] <rjharrison> Yep it's great though
[17:50] <RocketBoy> anyone know how to pull that flash content down - my attempts have failed so far
[17:50] <RocketBoy> http://www.bbc.co.uk/pudsey/
[17:51] <jcoxon> i like hte bit where the only people higher are on the ISS
[17:52] <russss> RocketBoy: looks like it's coming off an adobe flash server so it's a bit difficult to rip
[17:52] <RocketBoy> :-(
[17:53] <MikeMc> RocketBoy - is that you on teh vid? Steve Randall?
[17:53] <rjharrison> Hey steve cool
[17:53] <rjharrison> I haddn't seen this
[17:53] <jcoxon> MikeMc, thats RocketBoy yeah
[17:54] <MikeMc> cool. Nice to put a face to a name.
[17:54] <jcoxon> MikeMc, you going to hackspace this evening?
[17:54] <MikeMc> Unfortunately not. I am overwhelmed with orders at the moment and need to work tonight to get them completed
[17:54] <jcoxon> hmm fogging on the camera
[17:55] <MikeMc> Everyone is orderign Arduino Starter Kits for Xmas I think
[17:57] <rjharrison> Very good steve
[17:57] <rjharrison> Actually got a good lookin this time and not some presenter pretending to do it
[17:59] <RocketBoy> yeah - there should be another installment tomorrow
[17:59] <rjharrison> Well looks like HAB has taken over the media this week :)
[17:59] <MikeMc> :)
[17:59] <RocketBoy> not sure what part it will take on friday - if at all - you cant tell with these media types
[17:59] <rjharrison> I'm off home to do some real work for a bit
[17:59] <jcoxon> might just be in the run up
[18:00] <rjharrison> Yep tell me about it!
[18:00] <rjharrison> jcoxon have fun at hack space
[18:00] <jcoxon> thanks - not sure how many people will be there
[18:01] <jcoxon> probably just use it as a time to make some progress on ballasthalo3
[18:01] <MikeMc> it's all good publicity for the hobby
[18:11] <rjharrison> See you all later @ home
[18:11] <rjharrison> jcoxon have fun at hackspace
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[18:22] <jcoxon> bbl
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[18:34] <Laurenceb> is the sun out?
[18:35] <RocketBoy> no its just on the other side of the earth
[18:35] <RocketBoy> ;-)
[18:35] <Laurenceb> heh
[18:35] <Laurenceb> the sun newspaper
[18:35] <Laurenceb> with the hab article
[18:35] <RocketBoy> that was yesterday
[18:35] <RocketBoy> hang on i'll dig out the links
[18:36] <RocketBoy> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/40th/2733114/The-Sun-launches-birthday-edition-21-miles-into-space.html
[18:37] <Laurenceb> looks like photoshop
[18:38] <RocketBoy> you never know ;-)
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[18:38] <RocketBoy> I guess the background is a lot fuzzier than the foreground
[18:39] <RocketBoy> also http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0051wp3/Steve_Bailey_17_11_2009/ - 14.40 mins in
[18:40] <RocketBoy> and also http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0051wp3/Steve_Bailey_17_11_2009/ - 14.40
[18:40] <RocketBoy> oops
[18:40] <RocketBoy> I mean http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/leeds/hi/people_and_places/nature/newsid_8366000/8366683.stm
[18:42] <Laurenceb> neat
[18:42] <RocketBoy> and for my stuff see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDL7R6r2uyc and http://www.bbc.co.uk/pudsey/
[18:43] <RocketBoy> (just in case this stuff hasn't been plugged enough)
[18:45] <Laurenceb> hadnt seen that
[18:46] <Laurenceb> good that they did more than just mention you this time
[18:46] <sbasuita> Love the pudsey launch RocketBoy : )
[18:47] <Laurenceb> aha pink insulation board
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[18:47] <Laurenceb> from Focus?
[18:47] <Laurenceb> - focus diy
[18:51] <Laurenceb> nice that you got on the front page
[18:58] <RocketBoy> sbasuita: thanks - more to come on the same website tomorrow
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[19:09] <sbasuita> RocketBoy, any chance of making the show?
[19:10] <Laurenceb> http://www.catsforgold.com/
[19:12] <RocketBoy> sbasuita: The children in need show Friday? - not sure - could be - but depends on the BBC editors
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[19:34] <Laurenceb> hi jcoxon
[19:39] <jcoxon> hey Laurenceb
[19:39] <Laurenceb> hows the level sensor going?
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[19:44] <jcoxon> just about to breadboard it
[19:45] <jcoxon> need to solder a few things first
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[19:58] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, do you have the link to that circuit you sent me
[19:59] <Laurenceb> just a sec
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[19:59] <Laurenceb> http://www.ecircuitcenter.com/Circuits/opitov/opitov.htm
[20:00] <Laurenceb> thats the basic idea
[20:02] <jcoxon> thanks
[20:02] <jcoxon> yeah i'm getting some help here at hackspace
[20:02] <Laurenceb> you are there now?
[20:03] <jcoxon> yes
[20:06] <Laurenceb> cool, wherabouts is this?
[20:06] <jcoxon> londopn
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[20:15] <Laurenceb> when are you launching?
[20:15] <Laurenceb> RocketBoy?
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[20:31] <jcoxon> hey Laurenceb
[20:31] <jcoxon> b3cft is helping me out
[20:32] <Laurenceb> hi
[20:32] <Laurenceb> you making this on breadboard?
[20:32] <jcoxon> yes
[20:32] <Laurenceb> do you have a 3.3v supply?
[20:32] <jcoxon> yup
[20:33] <Laurenceb> ok you need to make a 1.65v supply
[20:33] <Laurenceb> i.e. 3.3v/2
[20:33] <jcoxon> why?
[20:33] <Laurenceb> I'd suggest using two 10K ohm resistors or similar
[20:33] <Laurenceb> you see ground on that diagram
[20:33] <Laurenceb> that needs to be half way between 0 and 3.3v
[20:34] <Laurenceb> so two 10K or so resistors then a microfarad or so to 0v from the 1.65v rail
[20:36] <b3cft> 8.1k close enough?
[20:36] <Laurenceb> that'll be fine
[20:41] <Laurenceb> maybe 100K for the feddback resistor
[20:42] <MikeMc> Hi guys
[20:42] <MikeMc> What is this 'level sensor' I hear about James?
[20:48] <b3cft> k, what do we use the 1.65v supply for?
[20:50] <Laurenceb> the ground in that circuit I linked
[20:50] <Laurenceb> you've "split the rails"
[20:50] <b3cft> yeah, I've got 0v, 1.65v and 3.3v
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[20:51] <Laurenceb> http://tangentsoft.net/elec/vgrounds.html
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[20:58] <rjharrison> Evening all
[20:59] <MikeMc> evenin'
[20:59] <rjharrison> Hey jcoxon how is hackspace going
[21:00] <rjharrison> Hi MikeMc hows the payload going?
[21:00] <MikeMc> payload going.. sssllooowwwllyy...
[21:00] <MikeMc> Little time
[21:00] <rjharrison> hehe
[21:00] <MikeMc> BUT!
[21:00] <rjharrison> like the wiki
[21:01] <MikeMc> I have a week off work all next week :) So guess what I'LL be doing !
[21:01] <MikeMc> :D
[21:01] <rjharrison> Ahh progress
[21:02] <MikeMc> I'd really like to do some UV measurements throughout the flight so i'm thinking how to do that
[21:03] <MikeMc> it's easily done if you don't mind spending a few hundred quid but i want to do it as cheaply as possible but at the same tiem get some meaningful data out of it
[21:03] <MikeMc> No idea if that is possible but i'm going to research it
[21:05] <Laurenceb> photodiode?
[21:06] <MikeMc> yes but the ones that measure the UV range that HAB people may be interested in, i.e. the damaging UV, they are expensive
[21:07] <MikeMc> so i was wondering if there is a wide ranging sensor that could be made more specific using pass through filters
[21:07] <Laurenceb> I suspect a photodiode + filter maybe
[21:07] <rjharrison> MikeMc seems an idea
[21:07] <Laurenceb> might not go far enough into the UV
[21:07] <MikeMc> that's the thing
[21:08] <rjharrison> You may be able to get some one to give you a sample one :)
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[21:08] <MikeMc> i wonder if it copuld be done with diffractiongratings
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[21:16] <edmoore> Laurenceb: you know matlab/octave, right?
[21:16] <Laurenceb> yes
[21:17] <edmoore> could you sanity check me?
[21:17] <Laurenceb> go for it
[21:17] <edmoore> x = 1:200
[21:17] <edmoore> a vector 200 long whose elements just increment from 1 to 200
[21:17] <edmoore> trivial
[21:17] <Laurenceb> yep
[21:18] <edmoore> y = [sin(0.6*x) sin(0.8*x)]
[21:18] <edmoore> a vector 400 long, the first 200 elements having a normalised freq of 0.6, the 2nd 200 elements having a normalised freq on 0.8
[21:19] <edmoore> also, triv, right?
[21:19] <edmoore> also triv*
[21:19] <Laurenceb> yeah
[21:19] <edmoore> i mean i can plot y and see that that is the case
[21:19] <Laurenceb> yeah I see it
[21:20] <edmoore> for i = 1:200 G(i,1) = cos(first_freq*i); G(i,2) = sin(first_freq*i); end
[21:20] <edmoore> mentally insert carriage returns
[21:20] <edmoore> first_freq is a paramater supplied as 0.6
[21:20] <edmoore> there is then a 2nd for loop that runs from 201 to 400
[21:21] <Laurenceb> you could do this with complex numbers
[21:21] <edmoore> yes i know but that's entirely tangential
[21:22] <edmoore> so that makes a 400 x 2 matrix whose first colum is 200 elemets of a freq with 0.6 and 200 elements with a freq of 0.8 (i supply 0.8 as the freq for the 2nd loop)
[21:22] <Laurenceb> yeah
[21:22] <edmoore> the two colums have 90 degree phase difference
[21:22] <edmoore> right
[21:22] <Laurenceb> yeah
[21:22] <edmoore> so the fourier transform of a column shows different frequencies to the fourier transform of y
[21:23] <edmoore> which is... odd
[21:23] <Laurenceb> it could be the transition
[21:24] <Laurenceb> so the transition between the two frequencies is a step or not
[21:25] <edmoore> but the two overising peaks have different positions
[21:27] <Laurenceb> what is first freq?
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[21:28] <Laurenceb> could it be due to the quantsation
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[21:33] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, it doesn't work
[21:36] <Laurenceb> whats the output voltage?
[21:36] <Laurenceb> jcoxon
[21:37] <b3cft> 1v
[21:37] <Laurenceb> sounds good
[21:37] <Laurenceb> try changing the amount of light
[21:37] <b3cft> no change on light/dark
[21:38] <Laurenceb> hmm
[21:38] <Laurenceb> are you sure you set it up right?
[21:38] <Laurenceb> where is the photodiode conected between?
[21:38] <b3cft> common gnd and v- input
[21:39] <Laurenceb> as in inverting input?
[21:39] <Laurenceb> and common ground=1.65v
[21:39] <Laurenceb> maybe stick a few nF cap across the feedback resistor
[21:40] <Laurenceb> it may be oscillating
[21:40] <b3cft> non-inverting input
[21:40] <Laurenceb> what size feedback resistor?
[21:40] <b3cft> 87k
[21:41] <Laurenceb> sounds sane
[21:41] <Laurenceb> try a cap across it
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[21:43] <edmoore> seems it crashed. Laurenceb: re-wrote a section in a more dumb way, problem went away
[21:43] <edmoore> suggesting 'smart way' was infact 'wrong way'
[21:43] <Laurenceb> edmore: I think its an artifact of the quantisation in time
[21:43] <Laurenceb> oh ok
[21:44] <Laurenceb> b3cft: do yuo have a cap across the feedback resistor?
[21:44] <b3cft> k, I think we have it working
[21:44] <Laurenceb> ah cool
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[21:44] <Laurenceb> you want to stick it in an adc and try it with an IR led
[21:45] <b3cft> that's what i've been testing with
[21:45] <Laurenceb> might need to be kept reasonably dark to avoid it saturating
[21:45] <b3cft> ambient light and a pocket torch
[21:45] <Laurenceb> there is an ir filter on the diode but its not perfect
[21:45] <Laurenceb> ambient light effects it
[21:46] <Laurenceb> oh well gtg
[21:46] <Laurenceb> cya
[21:46] <Laurenceb> good luck
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[22:12] <rjharrison> Hey edmoore
[22:12] <edmoore> hi rjharrison
[22:13] <rjharrison> Hows it going
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[22:14] <edmoore> not bad, just buried in work. may grab last orders actually and call it quits
[22:18] <Randomskk> yo edmoore
[22:18] <Randomskk> I hear you got served
[22:18] <jonsowman> haha
[22:18] <edmoore> i think it's actually just a formal notice
[22:19] <edmoore> i.e. 'pay us or we will call our lawyers'
[22:19] <edmoore> gotta love fedex
[22:19] <jonsowman> ah right thats not too bad then
[22:19] <edmoore> phoned my other half to check the wording
[22:19] <Randomskk> planning to pay now or call their bluff? :P
[22:20] <Randomskk> we got an arduino and the arm breakout to act as a cw transmitter today. worked better than I expected?
[22:20] <Randomskk> pwm at 36mhz (arm) or toggling pins at like 1 to 4mhz (arduino) and keying it on/off, sticking a bit of wire into the pin, sticking some wire into the yt817, tune it and set it to cw, ta-da
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[22:22] <Randomskk> the signal faded a bit when it had to get through the wall between the two halfs of the room, but besides that it worked great (probably more a testament to the yt817 than the arm-radio)
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[22:29] <rjharrison> So edmoore any launches planned
[22:29] <rjharrison> I feel like I need a day tracking
[22:29] <edmoore> nothing to report just yet
[22:30] <rjharrison> Still hobbeling along then
[22:30] <edmoore> hobble won't be flying for a bit
[22:30] <edmoore> definitely not at that stage for a while
[22:31] <edmoore> I may go for a drink before I face a big coding session
[22:31] <edmoore> bbl
[22:31] <rjharrison> ok
[22:31] Nick change: edmoore -> edmoore|away
[22:31] <rjharrison> ttfn
[22:31] <sbasuita> Picking a callsign...
[22:31] <Randomskk> sbasuita: :D
[22:31] <sbasuita> : (
[22:31] <rjharrison> hey sbasuita cool
[22:31] <Randomskk> I transmitted my callsign for the first time today
[22:31] <rjharrison> M6...
[22:31] <sbasuita> M3SSB and M3XSB and M3SBX are all taken
[22:32] <Randomskk> I don't think the signal got further than 10m though
[22:32] <rjharrison> lol
[22:32] <Randomskk> also no one replied
[22:32] <sbasuita> hehe
[22:32] <Randomskk> otoh that was to be expected
[22:32] <sbasuita> BTW guys, I can't figure out what the Tx spec of an american 817nd is
[22:32] <Randomskk> it was a microprocessor toggling an output pin at 36MHz, and keying that
[22:32] <sbasuita> some sites say 430-450, others say 440-450
[22:32] <sbasuita> (70 cms)
[22:33] <Randomskk> it transmitted 2E0SKK CQ CQ CQ over and over again in morse at 36MHz lol
[22:33] <Randomskk> does my license even cover that? probably not
[22:33] <rjharrison> You can take it to a ham shop and get it set for UK
[22:33] <sbasuita> rjharrison, they'll solder up the smd links?
[22:33] <Randomskk> lol it doesn't
[22:34] <rjharrison> Randomskk I think so what was the power
[22:34] <sbasuita> Randomskk, sssh >_>
[22:34] <Randomskk> so I wasn't even transmitting on an amateur frequency, whoops
[22:34] <Randomskk> rjharrison: I have no idea how to calculate it.
[22:34] <Randomskk> presumably less than a milliwatt
[22:34] <Randomskk> the signal couldn't penetrate a wall or go further than about ten meters
[22:34] <rjharrison> hehe
[22:34] <Randomskk> my antenna was a long piece of random length wire plugged into the i/o pin on my micro :P
[22:35] <Randomskk> the other end was the cusf ft817 with another long piece of wire into the centre of its antenna connector
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[22:35] <rjharrison> cool
[22:35] <rjharrison> You have the 817 to play with for a bit
[22:35] <rjharrison> that should get you to the local repeater
[22:35] <Randomskk> literally no external hardware - just the ARM toggling its output pin on, off, on, off at 36mhz and then keying that
[22:35] <rjharrison> GB3PI
[22:36] <Randomskk> ed has a ic7000 too
[22:36] <rjharrison> Yeo
[22:36] <rjharrison> p
[22:36] <Randomskk> might see if I can have a play on both before christmas
[22:36] <Randomskk> probably make a slightly more informed buying decision :P
[22:36] <rjharrison> Yep the ic7000 very cool but ! very portable
[22:36] <sbasuita> going for M6XSB then
[22:36] <Randomskk> yea, I was amazed at how portable that ft was today
[22:36] <Randomskk> it's tiny! and internal battery
[22:37] <rjharrison> Yep james is M6JCx
[22:37] <Randomskk> but output power is terribad and screen is nowhere near as nice
[22:37] <Randomskk> sbasuita: cool
[22:38] <sbasuita> hmm
[22:38] <sbasuita> M6SBX is better, no? :P
[22:38] <Randomskk> is it?
[22:38] <Randomskk> going for SB as initials?
[22:38] <sbasuita> Randomskk, easier to pronounce in phonetics i think
[22:38] <sbasuita> Randomskk, yes
[22:38] <rjharrison> And double the price tag
[22:38] <sbasuita> Randomskk, sorry, not phonetics
[22:38] <sbasuita> Randomskk, just normal speak
[22:39] <Randomskk> rjharrison: that's the catch, really
[22:39] <Randomskk> sbasuita: yup
[22:46] <sbasuita> rjharrison, how much do you think a ham shop would charge to wideband an american 817nd?
[22:46] <sbasuita> or change the region to england
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[23:06] <juxta_> morning all
[23:11] <rjharrison> sbasuita, 10 pounds max
[23:11] <sbasuita> rjharrison, great :)
[23:12] <Randomskk> I take it it'd be a warrenty-voiding kind of thing to do yourself?
[23:12] <rjharrison> Well it's second hand I guess
[23:12] <rjharrison> so prob not
[23:13] <RocketBoy> nights
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[23:37] <MikeMc> http://gizmodo.com/5407410/application-makes-your-iphone-blow-air
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[00:00] --- Thu Nov 19 2009