highaltitude.log.20091108

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[07:26] <rjharrison> Morning all
[07:26] <rjharrison> Made it :)
[07:27] <natrium42> hey rjharrison
[07:27] <rjharrison> Hi natrium42
[07:27] <natrium42> congratulations on the success :)
[07:27] <rjharrison> Thanks
[07:27] <rjharrison> Landed in a bloody high tree
[07:27] <natrium42> ouch
[07:28] <natrium42> the tracking was really smooth
[07:28] <rjharrison> about 30ft off the gorund
[07:28] <rjharrison> Yep appart from where steve changed his telemetry
[07:28] <rjharrison> bbiab
[07:29] <natrium42> so you used a telescopic stick of some sort?
[07:29] <natrium42> kk
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[07:50] <rjharrison> natrium42 yep
[07:50] <rjharrison> just fixing my mums computer
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[09:46] <MikeMc> Morning all
[09:54] <bittwist> morning
[09:59] <edmoore> morning MikeMc and bittwist
[09:59] <MikeMc> hi
[10:01] <edmoore> how's it going?
[10:03] <edmoore> juxta: did I read correctly that you're in Oz?
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[10:03] <edmoore> morning RobertB
[10:03] <edmoore> RocketBoy, even
[10:03] <edmoore> this channel is gorwing so much now I can't use 2-letter autocompletes anymore
[10:03] <MikeMc> i'm fine - just wish i could see some pictures from the launches but there is some kind of mysterious embargo on them all
[10:04] <edmoore> what a loss of innocense
[10:04] <MikeMc> lol
[10:05] <RocketBoy> ;-)
[10:06] <RocketBoy> all will become clear
[10:06] <MikeMc> i'm too impatient
[10:14] <juxta> edmoore: yep, I'm in Australia :)
[10:14] <edmoore> where abouts, if you don't mind me asking? Is the default jetstream going to take your payloads inland or out to the pacific?
[10:15] <edmoore> RocketBoy: I really enjoyed tracking yesterday
[10:15] <MikeMc> yeah me too - amazed i got a signal from an indoor whip 120k away
[10:15] <juxta> edmoore: I'm in Adelaide - jetstream should take us inland :D
[10:15] <edmoore> sorry my original landing prediction was a few km off though! it came down a bit faster than the value I guessed at. really must get that auto-learning landing predictor working
[10:16] <juxta> edmoore: http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Adelaide&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Adelaide+SA&ll=-34.921971,139.559326&spn=3.467826,6.981812&z=8
[10:16] <edmoore> juxta: awesome. and I guess population density isn't really an option for you
[10:16] <edmoore> sorry, isn't really a concern
[10:16] <juxta> not in terms of landing on anything, but in terms of communications it is a bit - 3G/GSM coverage is pretty poor outside of metro areas
[10:17] <edmoore> hence amateur radio :)
[10:18] <juxta> yeah - but getting in touch with anybody from the chase cars might be tricky
[10:18] <juxta> (depending on where we land)
[10:19] <juxta> jet stream seems to be a little variable here too - some days I run predications and get a landing spot 50km east (which would be good), other days I get 150km west (bad bad bd)
[10:20] <edmoore> hehe
[10:21] <edmoore> so it looks like, as MikeMc found, fldigi can't deal with low signal to noise very well
[10:21] <edmoore> infact, at all
[10:21] <juxta> do you guys get that kind of thing in the UK at all?
[10:21] <edmoore> juxta: oh yes
[10:21] <edmoore> often the balloons do what they did yesterday
[10:22] <edmoore> sometimes they start heading northwest into northern england
[10:22] <juxta> ah right
[10:22] <edmoore> sometimes they dive down towards france
[10:22] <edmoore> sometimes they dog-leg above the jetstream and head back inland
[10:22] <juxta> but predictions generally are fairly close, right?
[10:22] <edmoore> yes
[10:22] <edmoore> yesterday's prediction was pretty accurate
[10:23] <juxta> all I want from the prediction is the general direction to be honest :)
[10:23] <edmoore> really need to get the CUSF predictor code integrated into the online tracker. that would constantly update the predicted landing spot
[10:23] <juxta> if it's going east, it could go 1000km and I wouldnt have hassles :)
[10:23] <edmoore> it can be nice to see it come down
[10:23] <edmoore> yeah, lucky you :p
[10:23] <edmoore> we have it harder in cambridge
[10:24] <juxta> if you integrated the predictions into the tracker, that would be brilliant
[10:24] <juxta> so that you had a calculated prediction everytime you got an update from the balloon
[10:24] <edmoore> exactly
[10:24] <edmoore> and the most useful bit is during descent
[10:25] <juxta> yeah
[10:25] <edmoore> as it automatically calculates the actual drag of the payload based on the data
[10:25] <juxta> how close do you typically see to initial predictions (ie, pre-launch)?
[10:25] <juxta> +/- 20km?
[10:26] <edmoore> it depends. we got a couple of the them last year give a prediction that was 5km away from final over a 180km flight
[10:26] <edmoore> and converging during the flight as we had the dynamic predictor hooked up
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[10:27] <edmoore> usually the predictions are ok, it depends on how closely you can fill the balloon such that you get the ascent rate you wanted and the burst alt you wanted
[10:27] <edmoore> right, got to dash
[10:28] <juxta> that's imprssive :)
[10:28] <juxta> impressive* even
[10:28] <juxta> catchya later
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[14:36] <RocketBoy|away> rjharrison: does the GPS bit of dlfldigi work under windows?
[14:37] Nick change: RocketBoy|away -> RocketBoy
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[14:59] <SpikeUK> RocketBoy - congratulations on yesterday!
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[15:02] <jcoxon> hey all
[15:03] <MikeMc> hey
[15:03] <SpikeUK> jcoxon Hey! Well done for yesterday BTW!
[15:03] <RocketBoy> SpikeUK: thanks - the main thing is to get it back - I always say
[15:03] <jcoxon> hey MikeMc
[15:03] <jcoxon> SpikeUK, thanks
[15:04] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, am running my mac without hte keyboard attached - seems to be okay
[15:04] <jcoxon> i also suspect temperature has an element as well
[15:04] <jcoxon> might need to add in some sort of temp control
[15:04] <jcoxon> (the fans got busted in the transplant
[15:04] <RocketBoy> yeah - top marks for being my virtual co-polot jcoxon - it really works well
[15:05] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, will get on and make the gps option work with dl-fldigi
[15:05] <jcoxon> then we'd be able to track your position
[15:05] <RocketBoy> oh - right - thanks
[15:05] <jcoxon> the main reason for not implmenting it is cross platform stuff
[15:06] <edmoore> rob has a wee script that seems to do the job
[15:06] <jcoxon> edmoore, the plan is to intergrate that
[15:06] <jcoxon> i've already added the fields to dl-fldigi
[15:06] <RocketBoy> I'm gping to use my eTrex mounted in the front window of the van - its NMEA serial in/out plugged in to a USB to serial converter
[15:07] <RocketBoy> going
[15:07] <SpikeUK> All - I did not get the chance to write yesterday but it was really great stuff! Thanks!
[15:07] <jcoxon> yeah teh plan would be to just parse some nmea
[15:07] <edmoore> is the API to get data up onto the server on the wiki?
[15:08] <RocketBoy> SpikeUK: yeah - I'm beginning to think we have this HAB stuff cracked.
[15:08] <jcoxon> edmoore, ummm not in one complete document
[15:08] <edmoore> would be super helpful for people who don't want to use fldigi but do want to interface their toolchain
[15:09] <SpikeUK> RocketBoy: looking that way ;-)
[15:11] <jcoxon> edmoore, i mean to actually send data to the server you just POST it, telem strings start with $$ and receiver data starts with ZZ
[15:11] <jcoxon> but i'll put something together
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: :)
[15:12] <edmoore> OK. I just made some software for degree that would be very much better at extracting the data from the audio than fldigi, the only problem is that it's nothing like real time. But I might work on it and use to it try and get some stuff out of wav files when it's very faint
[15:12] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, its one of those things - need to wait and see if it materialises
[15:13] <jcoxon> edmoore, oh the all you'd do is post it (libcurl perhaps) to the server
[15:13] <edmoore> ok, can manage that :)
[15:13] <jcoxon> the server will then check it over against the xml file that exists on the server
[15:13] <jcoxon> and will parse it appropriately
[15:13] <jcoxon> edmoore, what would be good would be to be able to enter data later and the server places it in the right place
[15:14] <jcoxon> e.g. you could fill in telemetry gaps
[15:14] <edmoore> exactly my thinking
[15:14] <jcoxon> hmmm thats defintiely a job for rob - my mysql knowldge is zero
[15:16] <edmoore> this technique uses bayesian methods that do actually amount more or less to a fourier transform (but not a fast fourier transform) but with a much better resolution and confidence on whether or not there is a frequency x amongst the noisy data
[15:16] <jcoxon> edmoore, would be tres good for trans-a
[15:16] <edmoore> and infact you may be able to get it real-time by doing slightly less work or perhaps porting it onto a GPU
[15:16] <jcoxon> nice script which records at the right time then runs it through your code and the updates the server
[15:18] <edmoore> for morse code i think you could use bayesian techniques that would run real time pretty easily. morse is so simple
[15:18] <edmoore> ha, a quick google: http://www.dxatlas.com/CwSkimmer/
[15:19] <jcoxon> perhaps we should add a new string start character such as && which highlights that it is not real-time and to place it in the appropriate place
[15:19] <jcoxon> yeah i've seen that
[15:19] <edmoore> i think you could just use the message identifier, couldn't you?
[15:19] <edmoore> i mean that's a unique ID
[15:20] <edmoore> and just re-sort the strings when you get a new one
[15:20] <jcoxon> yeah probably, i'm sure thats possible with the database
[15:20] <jcoxon> not sure how the tracker would feel though, wonder if you'd need a refresh
[15:20] <edmoore> sounds like what a database fundamentally does
[15:21] <jcoxon> don't know enough about how the tracker works
[15:21] <edmoore> yeah, i don't know how the line is generated on the map
[15:26] <edmoore> natrium42?
[15:28] <jcoxon> edmoore, i'm sure it can be done
[15:28] <jcoxon> perhaps a dirty hack would be to have the points placed on as another payload
[15:28] <jcoxon> overlaying the previous track
[15:29] <edmoore> very dirty :p
[15:29] <jcoxon> though i guess that removes the chance to correct a wrong path
[15:29] <jcoxon> pah too dirty
[15:29] <jcoxon> we are professionals of course :-p
[15:29] <edmoore> of course :)
[15:33] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, oooo and now i've got synergy working between the two laptops i don't even need a keyboard :-p
[15:46] <Jon_Apex> hehe randomskk here
[15:46] <Jon_Apex> jon is out
[15:46] <Jon_Apex> oh shit here he comes
[15:57] <Jon_Apex> edmoore: where can we get some aluminium sheet and copper tubing?
[15:58] <edmoore> schizophrenic now?
[15:58] <Jon_Apex> sorry about that
[15:58] <edmoore> what sort of size and thickness of sheet?
[15:58] <Jon_Apex> 15x15cm sheet 0.5mm ish
[15:59] <edmoore> copper tubing - again depends on size. Plumbers an obvious answer, maybe brake-line tube for something smaller bore
[15:59] <edmoore> if it can wait a day, I'm sure the workshop would probably have a whole bunch of offcuts that would do for that kind of size ali
[16:00] <Jon_Apex> lovely, where do we need to go for offcuts?
[16:00] <edmoore> just the main workshop in the ingles building - do you know where it is?
[16:00] <Jon_Apex> nope, sorry. im sure we can find it :)
[16:01] <edmoore> into ingles, take the stairs on the left (first left)
[16:01] <edmoore> up one flight of those. follow the smell of cutting fluid
[16:01] <Jon_Apex> fantastic
[16:01] <Jon_Apex> thanks :)
[16:01] <edmoore> you'll get to know it when you do the SDP
[16:03] <Jon_Apex> hmm yes we're meant to be starting to design that atm
[16:03] <edmoore> which scenario?
[16:03] <Jon_Apex> bridge with central load
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> I've got about 20 1m*80cm sheets of it in the garage...
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> what's it for?
[16:04] <Jon_Apex> making ice using peltiers
[16:04] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[16:04] <SpeedEvil> I need to build a peltier thingy.
[16:04] <SpeedEvil> Hot/cold pad.
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> For a coffeemaker.
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> Chill milk and water overnight, then heat, and add coffee
[16:07] <Jon_Apex> we're trying to freeze water into ice cubes, heat quickly to remove them from container, then add to drinks
[16:07] <SpeedEvil> Boooring.
[16:08] <Jon_Apex> depends on the drinks
[16:08] <SpeedEvil> Heat _rapidly_ flash the surface to steam, and pop them on a controlled trajectory into the drink that's been laser-ranged, and determined to be too warm by IR thermometer.
[16:08] <edmoore> i've always thought an ice liner that conforms to the shape of a glass would be cool
[16:08] <edmoore> your pour the liquid into the lined glass
[16:08] <Jon_Apex> good pun there
[16:08] <edmoore> one tries one's hardest
[16:08] <Jon_Apex> haha
[16:08] <jcoxon> job done
[16:09] <jcoxon> all set up
[16:09] <jcoxon> now lets hope my old ibook doesn't go keyboard crazy...
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[16:17] <jcoxon> would anyone be interested in buying a lassen iq breakout board pcb?
[16:19] <edmoore> how much?
[16:20] <jcoxon> ?5
[16:20] <jcoxon> let me do some quick maths
[16:20] <jcoxon> ?4 actually
[16:21] <jcoxon> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/4079778441/
[16:21] <jcoxon> got at least 2 spare
[16:21] <edmoore> Do you mean £ rather than ?
[16:21] <jcoxon> oh its not encoding pounds symbols
[16:22] <jcoxon> 4GBP
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[17:17] <MikeMc> how does the PCB work? The Lassen has an 8 pin connector on teh bottom
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[17:24] <jcoxon> MikeMc, oh its just breaks out those pins as they are tiny (well in my opinion) but it also provides the holes for the right pullup resistors
[17:25] <jcoxon> and also there is a place to put the backup battery
[17:25] <MikeMc> but how do you solder those pins to the PCB?
[17:25] <jcoxon> oh there is a connector you can get
[17:25] <jcoxon> let me find it
[17:26] <jcoxon> its just a smd plug
[17:26] <MikeMc> oh
[17:26] <jcoxon> http://www.toby.co.uk/content/catalogue/products.asp?series=CLP-1xx-02-x-xx-xx
[17:27] <MikeMc> Ahh I see
[17:28] <MikeMc> cool
[17:29] <MikeMc> homy many PCB's did you get made?
[17:29] <jcoxon> i got 5 made
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[17:33] <jcoxon> MikeMc, http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/4085916751/
[17:34] <MikeMc> that's neat
[17:34] <MikeMc> So the 3.6v bit is that for a coin cell?
[17:34] <jcoxon> yeah, need to get a holder
[17:35] <jcoxon> and with the lassen having the backup is helpful as it takes a bit of time getting a fix from cold
[17:36] <MikeMc> what does the backup do?
[17:37] <jcoxon> when you boot a gps from cold it has to get all the data from scratch such as the satellite ephemeris
[17:38] <jcoxon> but if its got a backup battery it retains this data and so can get a fix far faster
[17:38] <jcoxon> the new gps modules are still pretty damn fast from cold
[17:40] <MikeMc> i see
[17:48] <jcoxon> shout if you want one :-)
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[17:51] <MikeMc> yeah i'll take one - should be useful
[17:59] <jcoxon> cool
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[20:42] <jcoxon> hey natrium42
[20:42] <natrium42> hi
[20:43] <natrium42> got disconnected by the ISP
[20:43] <jcoxon> tracker worked great yesterday :-)
[20:43] <natrium42> yeah, great work
[20:43] <jcoxon> was wondering if you ever made any progress with tracker v2?
[20:44] <natrium42> some
[20:44] <natrium42> but it's not in usable state yet
[20:46] <jcoxon> fair enough
[20:47] <jcoxon> am working on some of the sensors for ballasthalo 3
[20:47] <natrium42> gotta work on it
[20:48] <natrium42> cool, how is the magnetic sensor?
[20:48] <jcoxon> plan to have the payload finished by the end of the week
[20:48] <jcoxon> just sorting out the temp sensors and also a photocell (for day/night detection)
[20:48] <jcoxon> yeah the magnetic sensor is good, getting a good float is hte hard part
[20:48] <jcoxon> need to get a new ballast tank
[20:51] <jcoxon> the other issue is that if the magent on hte float isn't strong enough there is a risk that the little magent in the sensor will fall down the sensor and it'll ready 0
[20:51] <jcoxon> so need a good magnet inside to make sure it stays in hte right place
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[21:29] <MikeMc> Hi
[21:29] <DanielRichman> Hello
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[21:55] <natrium> jcoxon, i quickly added colors
[21:55] <natrium> it was too hard to tell tracks apart before
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[22:45] <edmoore_> it's quiet here tonight
[22:45] <Jon_Apex> it is rather
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[22:54] <jcoxon> hmmmm just wired up a second ds18s20 temp sensor on One-wire and now it doesn't work :-(
[22:54] <jcoxon> it worked before i added some wires to extend it
[22:54] <jcoxon> natrium, ooo the new colours are good
[23:00] <edmoore_> natrium: much improved
[23:01] <MikeMc> What colours?
[23:02] <edmoore_> jcoxon: could just be capacitive loading
[23:02] <edmoore_> have you tried lifting it up off the table?
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[23:04] <natrium> jcoxon/edmoore_, should the markers be colorful too?
[23:04] <edmoore_> if they could match the track maybe
[23:05] <natrium> yeah
[23:05] <edmoore_> + some scheme for calculating the various predicted landing spots
[23:05] <natrium> yep, i think fergus also wanted that
[23:05] <natrium> wtb set of colours to contrast well with the map
[23:06] <natrium> :P
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[23:08] <natrium> edmoore_, i am thinking about an animated marker for the current location
[23:09] <natrium> dunno if i can make it non-annoying
[23:09] <MikeMc> what are you referring to?
[23:09] <natrium> maybe slow fading in/out
[23:09] <natrium> MikeMc, the tracker display
[23:10] <MikeMc> robert harrisons?
[23:11] <natrium> well, he'll probably update his to the newest version once i am done
[23:11] <natrium> should really put it into a repo
[23:11] <MikeMc> so what tracker where?
[23:11] <MikeMc> spacenear?
[23:11] <natrium> spacenear.us/tracker
[23:11] <natrium> yeah
[23:11] <MikeMc> ahh
[23:12] <MikeMc> yeah ok i see
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> natrium: why animated?
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> natrium: and not - simply - say the current location 50% bigger
[23:12] <natrium> hmm, works too
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: have you read the 'making a robust 1-wire network' from maxim?
[23:13] <natrium> robust? use thicker cable :D
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> It's all to do with capacitance mainly
[23:14] <SpeedEvil> but for short (~1m
[23:14] <SpeedEvil> it shouldn't be an issue unless you're screwing up the negotiation
[23:25] <jcoxon> hmmm it seems to be exactly that
[23:25] <jcoxon> it does improve if i lift it off teh table
[23:25] <SpeedEvil> slightly lower pull-up resistors/
[23:25] <SpeedEvil> hit it with a scope, and check out the shapes
[23:26] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, yeah thats probably a good idea
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[23:29] <jcoxon> natrium, i think slight larger marker would be good and also simple to mark the inflight progress
[23:32] <natrium> kk
[23:38] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, seems to have fixed it by improving the soldering on the strip board
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[23:43] <SpeedEvil> :)
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> Oooh - that reminds me
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> no - still a while
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> got a bid in on a 4W laser diode to play with soldering.
[23:43] <jcoxon> actually i take that back
[23:43] <jcoxon> its stopped working
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[00:00] --- Mon Nov 9 2009