highaltitude.log.20091018

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[07:22] <juxta> does anybody have a rough idea how much current point and shoot digital cameras draw when switched on, and how many mAh on average might be used per photo taken?
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[08:26] <jcoxon> morning all
[08:26] <jcoxon> juxta, it really varies between cameras
[08:26] <juxta> hey jcoxon
[08:27] <juxta> guess I'll have to measure it once the cameras arrive :)
[08:27] <juxta> I ended up getting a radio by the way
[08:27] <juxta> I got an ICOM 706 MK2G
[08:28] <jcoxon> oh great
[08:29] <jcoxon> wow thats a really nice radio
[08:29] <jcoxon> might be worth getting you amateur licence - allow you to play with it a lot more
[08:29] <jcoxon> and the courses are usually quite informative
[08:29] <juxta> yeah, I will I think :D
[08:30] <jcoxon> in the UK they have a nice foundation licence which is only about 1 days work
[08:30] <jcoxon> thats the one i have
[08:30] <juxta> we have something similar here I think, a basics one
[08:30] <jcoxon> limits you to transmit 10W but my radio only can transmit 5 so hey
[08:30] <jcoxon> :-p
[08:30] <juxta> hehe
[08:30] <jcoxon> juxta, oh i guy came on yesterday saying he was launching from melbourne
[08:30] <jcoxon> today
[08:30] <juxta> now I'm just trying to come up with a nice power supply design for the onboard stuff :)
[08:31] <juxta> oh really?
[08:31] <jcoxon> asking about weather
[08:31] <juxta> damn
[08:31] <juxta> I missed him
[08:31] <jcoxon> i'll find hte log
[08:31] <jcoxon> one sec
[08:31] <juxta> cheers :)
[08:31] <jcoxon> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/zeusbot/highaltitude.log.20091017
[08:31] <juxta> cheers
[08:31] <jcoxon> around 10:00
[08:32] <juxta> yup :)
[08:32] <juxta> pitty he didnt leave a website or anything :(
[08:32] <jcoxon> yeah was just googling him
[08:33] <juxta> I'll keep an eye out for him, would like to hear how it went :)
[08:33] <jcoxon> yeah was planning to tell him to keep us up to date however never got round to it
[08:34] <juxta> ah well
[08:34] <jcoxon> well if he reappears i'll tell him about you
[08:34] <juxta> cheers
[08:34] <juxta> I'll have a blog up in the next few days
[08:34] <jcoxon> great
[08:34] <jcoxon> do link it on the wiki as well
[08:35] <juxta> I was going to ask your advice re power supplies - most of my load will be on 3V, for the cameras, and a small load on 5V or maybe 9V for the arduino
[08:35] <jcoxon> okay
[08:35] <jcoxon> usually we leave the power management of hte camera to the camera
[08:36] <jcoxon> what camera are you planning to use?
[08:36] <juxta> I was considering having ~9v of cells in series and stepping down to 3v for the cams, but don't want to waste power on linear regs, so I was going to use a swichmode regulator, but then i realised I could use 3v of cells in series, and step upto regulated 5v for the arduino
[08:37] <juxta> jcoxon: got one of these:
[08:37] <juxta> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasoniclz2/
[08:37] <jcoxon> hehe
[08:37] <jcoxon> cool
[08:37] <juxta> trouble I was having was that the regulators I'm running across seem to be limited to 0 degrees C in operational temp?
[08:38] <jcoxon> well i personally leave the camera with its own power supply and then i have an diy arduino running at 3v off a 6v supply
[08:38] <jcoxon> juxta, they keep themselves warm so probably don't go below 0 even though the rest of the payload may have
[08:39] <juxta> that's a good point actually
[08:39] <juxta> :)
[08:40] <jcoxon> i avoid keeping everything on one power supply - if that fails its bye bye
[08:40] <jcoxon> even though it does save weight
[08:42] <juxta> yeah - the other thing I thought of was just running the cameras on their own batteries (3v lithiums) & running the arduino on its own supply
[08:42] <jcoxon> yes i think thats probably best
[08:43] <juxta> I also have a SPOT tracker which is going along for the ride :)
[08:44] <jcoxon> oh nice
[08:44] <jcoxon> have you seen the 'info' on spot trackers?
[08:44] <juxta> natium42's hacking?
[08:44] <jcoxon> natrium42 has done quite a bit of work with them
[08:44] <jcoxon> yes
[08:44] <juxta> yeah, very cool stuff :D
[08:45] <jcoxon> so you know with the present gps it won't work above 18km i think
[08:45] <juxta> that's okay
[08:45] <juxta> I only plan on using it as backup incase i mess up the radio tracking and lose my payload :)
[08:45] <jcoxon> okay cool
[08:45] <jcoxon> sounds good then
[08:46] <jcoxon> when i first started i never thought that we'd get to a point where we use satelitte tracking
[08:46] <juxta> using a Lassen IQ for the primary GPS
[08:46] <juxta> haha - I was pretty amazed to find an affordable satelitte based tracking system :)
[08:48] <jcoxon> wow - i've now been doing ballooning for 4 years
[08:48] <jcoxon> the first launch was 15/10/05
[08:48] <juxta> well done :)
[08:50] <juxta> jcoxon: so you reckon it'd be OK to bet on a DC stepup keeping itself warm?
[08:50] <jcoxon> certainly a regulator
[08:51] <jcoxon> i'd go too many cells with a reg
[08:51] <jcoxon> the reg will keep itself and its surroundings warm
[08:51] <juxta> yeah, it'd be easy enough to use a regulator, but the catch is the wasted power
[08:52] <jcoxon> i really wouldn't worry about that
[08:52] <jcoxon> its going into heat which is vital
[08:52] <juxta> i have a little power supply i built which would provide 3.3v, 5v, 6v, & 9v
[08:52] <jcoxon> we've had GPS modules get so cold their crystals drift and they lose lock
[08:52] <jcoxon> and the radio is going to drift like crazy anyway
[08:52] <jcoxon> any heat will help
[08:53] <juxta> haha, fair enough
[08:53] <jcoxon> -55 is cold
[08:53] <juxta> are the claims of 1000 photos from a pair of lithium AA's valid?
[08:54] <jcoxon> yes
[08:54] <jcoxon> run everything on lithium AAs
[08:54] <juxta> wow, that's no half bad
[08:54] <juxta> not*
[08:54] <jcoxon> they work at -40 as well
[08:54] <juxta> yeah I was planning on it, didn't think other AA's would be any good that cold
[08:54] <jcoxon> we've never had them fail, you'll be amazed how long they work for
[08:55] <juxta> nice
[08:55] <juxta> i might use my little power supply hooked upto 8 lithiums or something then
[08:56] <jcoxon> its worth running tests when you are ready
[08:56] <jcoxon> see how 4 lithiums do
[08:56] <jcoxon> thats the standard really
[08:58] <juxta> fair enough
[08:58] <juxta> should probably build a new supply then :P
[08:59] <jcoxon> hehe
[09:00] <jcoxon> whats your plan for the lasseniq to connect to it?
[09:00] <jcoxon> its got a tiny connector
[09:01] <juxta> there's an SMD connector for it
[09:01] <jcoxon> you building a custom pcb?
[09:01] <juxta> and thankfully a spot for it on this:
[09:01] <juxta> http://www.ladyada.net/make/gpsshield/
[09:01] <juxta> :D
[09:02] <jcoxon> okay cool
[09:02] <jcoxon> was just i am probably going to make a breakout board
[09:02] <jcoxon> and use seeedstudios to make them
[09:02] <juxta> seedstudios?
[09:02] <jcoxon> so they'll have a number spare
[09:03] <jcoxon> HK Pcb prototype people
[09:03] <juxta> ah right
[09:03] <juxta> there's one run by sparkfun too which I saw
[09:03] <jcoxon> they give good rates but also will give you a refund if they can keep some to sell them on
[09:04] <juxta> oh, hey, that's pretty good :D
[09:05] <jcoxon> its just simple board that'll bring out the pins to nice 0.1" headers and provide space for a backup cell
[09:06] <juxta> good idea :)
[09:06] <juxta> these guys have some cool looking stuff by the way
[09:07] <jcoxon> well it'll be on their site soon if you want to get one
[09:07] <jcoxon> (no profit to me)
[09:07] <jcoxon> :-p
[09:09] <juxta> let me know when you get it made up :)
[09:37] <jcoxon> wow i think i've got a bit crazy with the vias
[09:46] <juxta> I need to learn how to work eagle I think
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[09:48] <jcoxon> i've only done single sided before
[09:48] <jcoxon> this one is double
[09:48] <juxta> roughly what does it cost to get a single board printed jcoxon?
[09:49] <juxta> i mean i figure it probably varies, but is it something like 10-20USD, or 50-100USD?
[09:49] <jcoxon> it varies massively
[09:49] <grummund> depends on size and number of layers
[09:49] <jcoxon> i reckon you are looking at 60 or so USD
[09:49] <jcoxon> though you might get 2 boards
[09:50] <jcoxon> that said seeedstudio is suprisingly cheap
[09:50] <jcoxon> its also to do whether they make it just for you or keep you design and then make a big board of lots of peoples
[09:50] <juxta> yeah
[09:50] <jcoxon> and cut them up
[09:52] <grummund> goldphoenix seemed the best deal when i looked
[09:55] <jcoxon> grummund, you able to check my over complicated design for me?
[09:55] <jcoxon> its only a small board
[09:56] <grummund> jcoxon: sure i don't mind... but i'm no expert either
[09:57] <jcoxon> will stick it on flickr
[09:58] <jcoxon> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/4021159915/
[10:00] <juxta> nice work jcoxon, i'll def keep an eye out for that :)
[10:00] <grummund> complicated? :P
[10:00] <juxta> by the way - does the lassen IQ need a backup battery? or is it only to help it get lock faster after being switched off?
[10:01] <jcoxon> hehe it looks a mess considering its only bring out 8 lines
[10:01] <jcoxon> juxta, it doesn't need it
[10:01] <jcoxon> just it does help
[10:01] <jcoxon> grummund, :-p
[10:01] <grummund> jcoxon: are you going to print that board yourself or get a fab house to make some?
[10:01] <jcoxon> i was thinking of using seeedstudios
[10:02] <jcoxon> they have a good deal for small boards
[10:02] <grummund> you seem to have deliberately laid tracks to the compononent holes all on the bottom side...
[10:02] <grummund> no need for that, the holes will be plated through
[10:03] <jcoxon> oh right
[10:03] <jcoxon> guess i'm too used to single sided
[10:04] <grummund> btw, right angles are generally considered a Bad Thing
[10:04] <jcoxon> that i do know
[10:04] <jcoxon> good point
[10:05] <jcoxon> it so much easier with right angles :-p
[10:05] <jcoxon> will angle them now
[10:06] <jcoxon> thanks grummund will make those corrections
[10:06] <grummund> tbh, for that circuit i'd start with the autorouter and see what happens :P
[10:06] <grummund> also i'm a fan of ground planes
[10:07] <juxta> grummund: why are right angled best avoided?
[10:07] <juxta> angles*
[10:07] <jcoxon> grummund, careful edmoore might hear and get angry
[10:07] <jcoxon> hehe
[10:07] <grummund> jcoxon: about autorouter or ground plane?
[10:07] <jcoxon> autorouter
[10:08] <grummund> yeah.. :P
[10:08] <gordonjcp> at right angles you get a weird step discontinuity in impedance
[10:09] <grummund> hmm, also to do with etching... (historically)
[10:09] <juxta> I see :)
[10:10] <jcoxon> there is something quite satisfying about routing the lines
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[10:22] <jcoxon> right, all the right angles have gone
[10:22] <jcoxon> well most of them at least
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[10:22] <jcoxon> grummund, how do you add text to the silk screen
[10:22] <jcoxon> the text i've added i guess gets etched
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[10:27] <grummund> add test to tPlace layer (21)
[10:28] <grummund> or move it to 21 if it's already there but on the wrong layer
[10:29] <grummund> s/test/text/
[10:29] <jcoxon> ooooo that makes sense
[10:29] <jcoxon> thanks
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[10:55] <jcoxon> morning RocketBoy
[10:56] <SpeedEvil> morning RocketBoyjcoxon
[10:58] <jcoxon> oooo 40m band seems open today
[10:58] <jcoxon> getting good signals
[10:58] Action: jcoxon has just set up his powerbook with dl-fldigi
[10:59] Action: SpeedEvil contemplates a day in bed.
[11:01] <gordonjcp> dl-fldigi?
[11:02] <jcoxon> as in our version of fldigi
[11:02] <jcoxon> with built in uploading to the server
[11:03] <gordonjcp> cool
[11:13] <RocketBoy> hey gordonjcp: have you got any advice on yagi design - I need to make a 868MHz yagi
[11:16] <RocketBoy> there are a few yagi design progrrams about - like yagicad and quickyagi - but I have no idea how good they are
[11:19] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, is the 868 coming along? i saw you updated the wiki
[11:22] <SpikeUK> RocketBoy ping
[11:23] <RocketBoy> jcoxon: yes - its been working on the bench - It'll be an FM system not SSB
[11:24] <RocketBoy> SpikeUK:hi
[11:25] <SpikeUK> RocketBoy morning! I've just sent an email to your btinternet account. Have you received it?
[11:25] <RocketBoy> hang on I'll look
[11:25] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: WA5VJB "cheap yagi" design
[11:25] <gordonjcp> IIRC they even have one around 900MHz you can scale
[11:26] <RocketBoy> gordoncp: ta - I'll take a look at that
[11:26] <gordonjcp> you could also do worse than to look at group D TV aerials
[11:26] <SpikeUK> gordonjcp - that's a good idea!
[11:27] <RocketBoy> yeah - 868MHz is just above TV channel 69
[11:28] <SpikeUK> RocketBoy - your e-mail address *is* as listed on http://ukhas.org.uk/ukhas:members is it?
[11:30] <RocketBoy> SpikeUK - PM
[11:30] <RocketBoy> yep - I got your email OK
[11:32] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, great
[11:32] <RocketBoy> BB shortly
[11:33] <grummund> http://www.cellantenna.co.uk/index.php?id=yagi
[11:33] <grummund> any good?
[11:33] <jcoxon> wow, turning off dashboard on this mac saves about 10% cpu
[11:38] <gordonjcp> grummund: the single-band yagi looks reasonable
[11:40] <grummund> i also found this page - http://www.w6pql.com/antennas.htm
[11:41] Action: grummund was looking at 868MHz yagis a few months back
[11:41] <grummund> those are my saved links
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[11:58] <juxta> hey jcoxon, I'm not sure if I told you - radiometrix make a high(er) power version of the NTX2, which is legal here
[12:01] <SpikeUK> justa - higher power indeed, but it's not unusual to get a range of 150km+ with 10mW - would make the Rx antenna less crucial though
[12:03] <juxta> yeah
[12:03] <juxta> it's only 25mW
[12:03] <juxta> but the price difference was only a few dollars, so I went for that one :)
[12:04] <sbasuita> juxta, nice find
[12:04] <juxta> it's called the 'NTX2H' here
[12:05] <juxta> NTX2H-434.650-10
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[12:13] <grummund> what's the permitted duty cycle at that power?
[12:14] <SpikeUK> grummund - if it's FM, I guess it's infinity to one ;-)
[12:15] <grummund> permitted in a legal sense
[12:16] <RocketBoy> back
[12:16] <RocketBoy> jcoxon: 868MHz certainly has a few things going for it - more power - smaller antenna size
[12:16] <grummund> there are channels that allow quite high power but only at low duty cycle
[12:16] <RocketBoy> Looking at the radiometrix modules & specs I think I can get a few 100Km with the standard transmitter and receiver module
[12:16] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, nice
[12:16] <RocketBoy> I think the <10% duty cycle can be an advantage
[12:16] <jcoxon> at FM
[12:17] <jcoxon> ?
[12:17] <RocketBoy> it reduces the heat dissapation problems - and it allows us to use a single frequency for several flights
[12:17] <RocketBoy> (at the same time)
[12:18] <RocketBoy> we could run a timeslot arrangement - synced to GPS time
[12:18] <jcoxon> so perhaps an sstv test some time :-p
[12:19] <jcoxon> bbiab router reset
[12:19] <RocketBoy> yeah - possible - AFSK methinks
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[12:47] <SpikeUK> Dear all. Just updated the UKHAS wiki page http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide . Now includes links to a recording of the telemetry received by Daniel Richman of Robert Harrison's Icarus launch on 26/09/09
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[13:10] <jcoxon_> hmmm it seems the K5OE handitenna guide has disappeared off the web
[13:11] <SpeedEvil> archive
[13:15] <SpeedEvil> .org
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[13:33] <jcoxon_> hey Tyke
[13:33] <jcoxon_> launching today?
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[13:33] <Tyke> JUst wanted to say thanks!
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[13:34] <Tyke> Launched this morning, everything went perfect.
[13:34] <jcoxon_> oh sweet
[13:34] <jcoxon_> so payload returned? good pictures?
[13:35] <Tyke> Yeap and yeap. Honestly, I was doubtful we would get the payload back, very dountful the xbee modules would be able to track it far etc.
[13:35] <jcoxon_> what altitude did you get?
[13:35] <Tyke> 82,000ft 24300 meters.
[13:36] <Tyke> With a kaymont 350g inflated to 1.30cm
[13:36] <jcoxon_> thats a good alt with that balloon
[13:36] <jcoxon_> good work
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> how'd xbee do?
[13:37] <jcoxon_> look forward to seeing some pics etc :-)
[13:37] <jcoxon_> please do keep us updated and add a link on the UKHAS wiki if you have time
[13:37] <jcoxon_> Tyke, oh and juxta is in australia as well and is interested in balloons
[13:38] <Tyke> Xbees went very very well, started getting spotty at 70,000ft because we had no road to follow it.
[13:38] <juxta> hi Tyke :)
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> So you were following under it?
[13:38] <Tyke> G'Day!
[13:38] <Tyke> Yes as close as possible. Started off easy then it got up to 100km/h
[13:39] <juxta> James mentioned you were planning a launch, glad to hear it went well!
[13:39] <Tyke> Much better than we thought it would!
[13:39] <juxta> so you tracked it via xbee?
[13:40] <juxta> what was the payload comprised of by the way?
[13:40] <Tyke> Yeah, 900Mhz XSCs. Both with the rubber duck antennas.
[13:40] <juxta> wow, nice, and you got 70,000 feet range out of them?
[13:41] <Tyke> Payload was simple: A470 camera with CHDK taking a picture every 5 secs. Yeah, 70,000ft range, expected no more than 20,000 feet.
[13:41] <juxta> was there some kind of microcontroller onboard?
[13:42] <Tyke> And we were about 5 km away from the xbees as well. Spotty reporting above 70,000ft
[13:42] <jcoxon_> good work to keep so close
[13:42] <SpeedEvil> you may find that you get better results at ~45 degrees - with the whips vertical
[13:42] <jcoxon_> thats unfortunately the problem with xbees
[13:42] <Tyke> Sorry. No micro controller. Very very simple setup. Xbee connected to 408GPS, powered by an anyvolt Micro.
[13:43] <jcoxon_> juxta, the radiometrix route will give you a lot further range
[13:43] <juxta> ah right
[13:43] <Tyke> 2nd recovery device was a GSM / GPS tracker.
[13:43] <jcoxon_> Tyke, wow 408GPS hehe and you made 24km
[13:43] <juxta> I've seen the anyvolt micro, looks pretty cool
[13:43] <jcoxon_> did you know that if you went any higher it would have turned off
[13:44] <jcoxon_> thats a sirfIII gps which don't work above about 24.5km
[13:44] <Tyke> Really? we knew there was a sirf bug.
[13:44] <Tyke> This is funny, as I think the bug causes lock ups?
[13:44] <jcoxon_> above 24km the gps usually just stopped reporting a lock
[13:44] <Tyke> The GSM GPS tracker also uses a sirf, if that would have locked up, no chance of getting it back.
[13:45] <jcoxon_> often even when back below 24 it needs reset
[13:45] <juxta> how long did the flight take Tyke? and how much displacment did you end up getting?
[13:45] <jcoxon_> though it does vary between modules
[13:45] <SpeedEvil> did your GSM tracker work?
[13:46] <Tyke> GSM tracker was perfect. We lost xbees when it landed as expected. Called the GSM tracker, got an SMS with location.
[13:46] <juxta> nice. you're near Melb, right Tyke?
[13:46] <Tyke> Dsiplacement, well the whole bottle of Helium. Yeap, in Melb basically, 5 mins from the CBD.
[13:47] <juxta> ah, by displacement I meant how far did it land from the launch site
[13:47] <juxta> I'm in Adelaide - I looked at doing GSM recovery too, but coverage is pretty poor outside of the metro areas here
[13:47] <Tyke> Ah ok, not measured it yet. I would say very close to 100km.
[13:48] <juxta> where abouts did you launch?
[13:48] <Tyke> Our coverage is poor as well, we got lucky for sure.
[13:48] <Tyke> Launched just outside the CBD, meant we got a choice of roads to follow the balloon on and nice snaps.
[13:48] <juxta> reckon you would have been able to find it with the xbee comms alone? (the last reported position)
[13:49] <Tyke> Not easily. Would have taken some looking for sure.
[13:50] <juxta> fair enough
[13:50] <juxta> do you have a blog or anything up? :)
[13:50] <juxta> jcoxon_: I've setup a blog for my project - do I need to do anything special to add it to the wiki?
[13:50] <Tyke> Because it landed behind a hill, last xbee report was 9,000ft. We had the antenna horizontal, not good for being on the ground.
[13:51] <Tyke> No blog yet, will in a few hours I hope. Honestly 90% of the pictures are borring! Tring to find the good ones.
[13:51] <juxta> haha
[13:51] <juxta> how many did you end up with?
[13:51] <jcoxon_> juxta, just add it to the project page
[13:51] <jcoxon_> feel free to start an australia section
[13:52] <juxta> will do :)
[13:52] Nick change: juxta -> Bogaurd
[13:53] <Tyke> Total pictures were over 3000 I think.
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[13:53] <Bogaurd> hmm, I don't have this nick registered it seems, bummer
[13:54] Nick change: Bogaurd -> juxta
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> It's not registered - so you can add it easily
[13:56] <juxta> yeah, I used to have it registered, will redo it in a bit ;p
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[14:01] <SpikeUK> DanielRichman Hi!
[14:02] <DanielRichman> hi SpikeUK
[14:02] <SpikeUK> DanielRichman - I finally got around to adding your telemetry recording to http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide - sorry it's taken so long
[14:03] <DanielRichman> SpikeUK, don't worry
[14:04] <DanielRichman> SpikeUK, be sure to note that it was USB and since is a recording, fldigi won't configure it automatically
[14:04] <DanielRichman> you might need to note some settings for rtty
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[14:06] <SpeedEvil> meh.
[14:06] Action: SpeedEvil reads the venus GPS datasheet and widshes it could log to NMEA
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[14:07] <SpikeUK> DanielRichman Urm. If you are using dl-fldigi I guess you just need to select icarus from the "Flight XML" settings? No? I'm just about to try it out locally
[14:07] <juxta> I'm also trying to decode it with fldigi
[14:08] <juxta> do i need to increase the carrier shift or something? my 'red bars' are way too close together...
[14:12] <SpikeUK> juxta Is there no setting info on http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide ?
[14:13] <juxta> ah, there's the stuff for dl-fldigi
[14:13] <juxta> i just have the vanilla fldigi installed
[14:14] <jcoxon_> you can still decode with fldigi
[14:14] <jcoxon_> just need to set stuff manually
[14:14] <juxta> yeah - I just dont know how to move those red bars apart ;p
[14:14] <jcoxon_> okay
[14:14] <jcoxon_> go to configure
[14:14] <jcoxon_> modems
[14:15] <jcoxon_> on the 2nd line of tabs go to rtty
[14:15] <juxta> yep
[14:15] <jcoxon_> increase the carriershift to 425
[14:15] <jcoxon_> baud rate 50
[14:15] <juxta> i tried that :(
[14:15] <jcoxon_> did the bars increase?
[14:15] <jcoxon_> have you selected rtty?
[14:15] <juxta> nope
[14:15] <juxta> i saved, restarted, etc
[14:16] <jcoxon_> okay first step
[14:16] <jcoxon_> configure
[14:16] <jcoxon_> oops
[14:16] <juxta> yeah, I've selected RTTY in the top left
[14:16] <jcoxon_> not configure
[14:16] <jcoxon_> close that
[14:16] <jcoxon_> okay go to Op Mode
[14:16] <jcoxon_> down to rtty
[14:16] <jcoxon_> then select custom
[14:17] <juxta> haha, that's got it :)
[14:17] <juxta> cheers jcoxon_!
[14:17] <jcoxon_> now you can configure it all
[14:17] <jcoxon_> when you get a chance do get dl-fldigi
[14:17] <jcoxon_> http://code.google.com/p/dl-fldigi/
[14:18] <jcoxon_> while not totally relevent considering where you are you could easily use it to feed data from your payload to the map
[14:20] <juxta> yeah, i'll grab it and have a play
[14:20] <juxta> working great now that I specified custom settings :)
[14:22] <jcoxon_> bbl
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[14:36] <juxta> argh - don't buy cheap CF cards
[14:36] <juxta> mine are all dead after 12 months
[14:36] <SpikeUK> juxta - that's not good!
[14:37] <juxta> found a working one
[14:37] <juxta> yay
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[14:55] <grummund> juxta: do you have a url to that 25mW module? i can't seem to find anything about it...
[14:55] <juxta> grummund: I don't, no - the supplier I'm buying it through just told me they stocked them
[14:55] <juxta> www.rfma.com.au
[14:56] <grummund> oh right... must be an .au special
[14:56] <juxta> where abouts are you grummund?
[14:56] <grummund> uk
[14:56] <juxta> ah right
[14:56] <juxta> is the limit there 10mW?
[14:57] <grummund> i believe so, but it does vary... some channel are more
[14:57] <grummund> like up to 500mW
[14:57] <juxta> ah yeah
[14:58] <juxta> ~433 is classified as a 'low potential for interference' here
[14:58] <juxta> but it's a very narrow band, something like 433.05-434.95
[14:59] <juxta> what do the NTX2's cost in the UK, just out of interest?
[14:59] <RocketBoy> I not sure how it is there - but in the UK only some licence exempt bands are allowed for airbone use.
[14:59] <RocketBoy> about £20
[15:00] <juxta> RocketBoy: I think the same thing probably applies here, but reading through the legislation, the 433 seems to be exempt, so I'm happy :)
[15:00] <juxta> we do have rules against using packet radio on CB and that sort of thing though
[15:00] <RocketBoy> cool
[15:01] <juxta> actually I think CB might not be approved for airborne use
[15:01] <juxta> but I forget, the legislation is so convoluted, it takes forever to find anything
[15:02] <grummund> ah... they do sell 25mW version for EU use but ERP must not exceed 10mW
[15:02] <grummund> in other words you may use it with inefficient antenna
[15:02] <juxta> :(
[15:03] <russss> heh
[15:04] <grummund> they also do 100mW version :-)
[15:04] <juxta> wow, nice
[15:04] <grummund> TX2EH
[15:05] <russss> so what's the public-access band you can get the furthest range with?
[15:05] <juxta> in AUS?
[15:06] <russss> well I was thinking in the UK
[15:06] <russss> but it's an interesting question
[15:07] <juxta> I know you can buy 1W 900mhz modems
[15:07] <juxta> whether or not they are legal is another question I guess
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> Check the waveband carefully.
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> Transmitting in the wrong band gets you from absolutely nothing, to military police turning up at your door.
[15:08] <juxta> haha, yeah, I could imagine the consequences would be bad
[15:12] <russss> radio regulations are silly sometimes.
[15:13] <russss> 802.11a is up to 1W but presumably you can only use it on the ground
[15:13] <Hiena> Not to mention, sometimes the armed forces has a strange request, like share your collected datas. ;)
[15:13] <grummund> seems there's a UK-specific ISM band at 458MHz, permitted up to 500mW
[15:15] <jcoxon_> russss, probably the longest range band would be 173mhz
[15:15] <RocketBoy> not airbone unfortunatly
[15:15] <russss> well I guess you can assume line of sight for this particular application
[15:15] <jcoxon_> no true
[15:16] <russss> this is nice (from 1997) http://www.roke.co.uk/download/datasheets/uk-frequency-allocations.pdf
[15:16] <jcoxon_> russss, for airbourne stuff you can't beat 434.075
[15:17] <russss> who the hell uses stuff in the 110GHz+ band
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[15:19] <RocketBoy> see http://www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/tech/interface_req/IR2030final.pdf page 11 - item (e) and table for list of airbone bands in the UK
[15:21] <RocketBoy> whats a good (and free) way of multi-casting a webcam these days?
[15:21] <jcoxon_> ustream
[15:21] <RocketBoy> oh yeah that rings a bell
[15:21] <jcoxon_> or batv if you are a member
[15:22] <jcoxon_> oops batc
[15:22] <jcoxon_> http://www.batc.tv/
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> There are other services that are good, and allow donations.
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> But they may require you to be naked. :)
[15:29] <russss> lol
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[15:59] <RocketBoy> http://www.ustream.tv/broadcaster/1719879
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[16:36] <juxta> what's the stream RocketBoy?
[16:37] <RocketBoy> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/xaben
[16:37] <RocketBoy> wow I got 2 viewers
[16:37] <juxta> the side of a radio?
[16:37] <RocketBoy> yep
[16:38] <juxta> ah hah
[16:38] <juxta> the front
[16:38] <juxta> what kind of radio is that?
[16:39] <RocketBoy> its a IC-R7000
[16:39] <juxta> it's alive
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> hawt radio action!
[16:39] <juxta> is there something to track at the moment?
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> Take off the knobs!
[16:40] <RocketBoy> wow this is a crappy web-cam
[16:40] <RocketBoy> still it was onl £5
[16:43] <RocketBoy> the ustream video is about 10secs behind live
[16:43] <juxta> I can live with that
[16:43] <juxta> though I am eager to get the most up to date view of your battery holders
[16:45] <RocketBoy> ;-)
[16:47] <RocketBoy> ok well - that works then - next step is mobile in the car
[16:47] <juxta> how much current do transceivers draw?
[16:48] <RocketBoy> depends - orn receive?
[16:48] <RocketBoy> on
[16:48] <juxta> yeah, on receive
[16:48] <juxta> not much I imagine
[16:48] <RocketBoy> yell I guess 100mA or so typically
[16:48] <juxta> oh right, ok, easy then
[16:49] <RocketBoy> depends on how loud the volume is
[16:49] <juxta> there's a fused 100A line going to my boot, should be quite sufficient
[16:51] <RocketBoy> that should do it
[16:52] <juxta> you don't need to use an external ground when using the radios mobile, do you?
[16:53] <RocketBoy> ? - you mean ground the radio to the car chassis?
[16:54] <juxta> I'm not too sure, I had a brief read of the manual for my radio (which I havent yet received), which made a fairly strong point about grounding the radio to erm.. the ground
[16:54] <juxta> as in a pipe, or something metal in the earth
[16:56] <RocketBoy> ah ok - this is an HF radio then?
[16:57] <RocketBoy> typically most ham radios have a ground connection on the back
[16:58] <juxta> yeah, it does HF, UHF and VHF
[16:58] <RocketBoy> this is mostly for HF operation with a long wire into the antenna socket
[16:58] <juxta> ah righto
[16:58] <juxta> in case of a lightning strike or something similar?
[16:58] <RocketBoy> for VHF/UHF the antenna connection will be co-ax
[16:59] <RocketBoy> yep
[17:00] <RocketBoy> and to act as a ground if you are just using a long-wire
[17:03] <RocketBoy> I doubt that it would save yo in a lightning strike - it might be ok to protect against shots etc.
[17:03] <RocketBoy> shorts
[17:04] <RocketBoy> I dont bother with it for VHF/UHF use
[17:05] <RocketBoy> the radio case should be connevted to mains earth anyway if it has a mains cable
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[17:06] Nick change: sbasuita_ -> sbasuita
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[17:19] <rjharrison__> Hi all
[17:19] <rjharrison__> any news
[17:19] Nick change: rjharrison__ -> rjharrison
[17:20] <SpeedEvil> Chicken thighs + pineapple + apple + honey + garlic + some korma powder from ebay is lovely.
[17:20] <rjharrison> Nothing in the air :)
[17:20] <SpeedEvil> I suspect that's not the news you're looking for though.
[17:20] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil somthing a little more on topic
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[17:38] <MikeMc> Hello
[17:43] <MikeMc> Question....
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> answer.
[17:43] <MikeMc> I have a mag-mount designed for taxi's. it is 52mm long. I can cut this down to 33.1cm to use for 70cm band right?
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> it won't be 33.1
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> but around there
[17:45] <Jon_Apex> i assume you mean 52cm
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> and probably
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> yeah - that too.
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> otherwise no :)
[17:45] <MikeMc> yeah 52cm
[17:45] <MikeMc> 1/2 wave for 70cm is 33cm isn't it?
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> the best way is to find a source of 70cm, tune to it
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> now, graph the frequency while cutting off 1cm at a time
[17:46] <MikeMc> 33.1 is the length fr 430.9 which is my local repeater
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> graph the signal strength
[17:47] <MikeMc> sounds dangerous
[17:47] <MikeMc> i'd likely cut too much off
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> yeah - it's easier if you can add the bit back on :)
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> but 0.5cm at a time isn't much of a risk
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> Start at - say - 40cm
[17:50] <MikeMc> k
[17:50] <RocketBoy> whats the taxi frequency - it may be a 5/8 wave
[17:52] <MikeMc> 136MHz
[17:52] <MikeMc> can be cut down for up to 180-Mhz too
[17:54] <RocketBoy> its a 1/4 wave then - should be OK to cut down
[17:55] <MikeMc> cool
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[17:59] <MikeMc> thanks
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[18:02] <Laurenceb> hi
[18:06] Action: Laurenceb is working on his comms code
[18:06] <Laurenceb> I'm trying to work out how to find the signal
[18:06] <Laurenceb> my first idea was to search for the callsign
[18:06] <Laurenceb> using a GPS style correlation algorythm
[18:06] <Laurenceb> problem is the radiometrix modules done have phase coherency
[18:07] <Laurenceb> so you can model the transmittion of the callsign using a convolution
[18:08] <Laurenceb> all I can think of doing is writing a DFT based discriminator that runs over 1 symbol long sections of audio
[18:08] <Laurenceb> then examine the variance of the output as a function of frequency
[18:09] <Laurenceb> can anyone suggest anything clever?
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[18:11] <Laurenceb> so basically I'm thinking search for an FM signal of the correct symbol lenght and frequency deviation
[18:12] Action: SpeedEvil ponders.
[18:14] <Laurenceb> I guess its good enough for what we want
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> where the symbol is the $$ICARUS
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> or whatever?
[18:14] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> Doesn't sound insane
[18:14] <Laurenceb> I'n my experience looking at a waterfall its very obvious where the signasl is, even when its too weak to pick up
[18:15] <Laurenceb> the worst you will have is constant tones
[18:15] <Laurenceb> from interteference
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> One concern would be that deviation might vary quite a bit
[18:15] <Laurenceb> so a DFT based technique to look for FM modulated data should work fine
[18:15] <Laurenceb> it doesnt
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> you might simply look for the high bits and low bits seperately in frequency space
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> k
[18:16] <Laurenceb> yeah thats what I'm saying
[18:16] <Laurenceb> so maybe 1 second of audio
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> I mean vary on different flights
[18:16] <Laurenceb> split into 50 Hz bins, each one 1/baud long
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> complex bins?
[18:17] <Laurenceb> no
[18:17] <Laurenceb> find the magnitude
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> 1/2 baud surely, so you don't run into oopses?
[18:17] <Laurenceb> then find the variance of mag(carrier+deviation)-mag(carrier-deviation)
[18:18] <Laurenceb> baud lenght then interleaved
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[18:18] <Laurenceb> with spacing 1/2baud
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> just ATM a decoder?
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> not working on protocol
[18:18] <Laurenceb> e.g. 300 baud dual tone signal
[18:18] <Laurenceb> for 1 second of audio
[18:18] <Laurenceb> would have approx 600 bins
[18:18] <Laurenceb> yes
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> Sounds sane.
[18:19] <Laurenceb> so it doesnt worry about protocol, just looks for any data
[18:19] <Laurenceb> then passes the carrier frequency to the tracking loop code
[18:20] <Laurenceb> the DLL tracking loop should be able to pull in to find the bin sync
[18:20] <Laurenceb> so you only need to pass carrier frequency
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[18:20] <Laurenceb> to within ~ +-100Hz for 300 baud
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> 300 baud?
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> just an example?
[18:21] <Laurenceb> we have got several hundered KM with 300 baud RTTY and trueRTTY
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> ah
[18:21] <Laurenceb> so I think its a sensible rate
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> especially iff you add FEC
[18:21] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> even stupid measures like just transmit 6 times
[18:22] <Laurenceb> I'm not going to bother with that quite yet
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> 6 times and majority vote would work quite well
[18:22] <Laurenceb> get the basics working
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> Indeed
[18:22] <Laurenceb> also drawing up a binary protocol would be good
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[18:22] <Laurenceb> something like ubx/tsip
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> I contemplated something with 3 or 4 byte packets.
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> each packet would be - for example - low byte of lon
[18:23] <Laurenceb> SSTL use TSIP for intermodule comms
[18:23] <Laurenceb> on their satellitesd
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> and transmitted rapidly for changing ones
[18:23] <juxta> does anybody use morse in HAB projects?
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> but - FEC would make more sense
[18:23] <Laurenceb> running over RS485 or canbus
[18:24] <Laurenceb> I want to avoid seperate character sync and packlet sync
[18:24] <Laurenceb> maybe a state machine that syncs to entire packets in the bitstream
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> afk - sleeping. Good luck
[18:24] <Laurenceb> cya
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[18:45] <Laurenceb> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8312999.stm
[18:45] <Laurenceb> I dont get it, I thought it was privatised
[18:47] <Laurenceb> so why dont they give their data out like NOAA :-(
[18:51] <russss> because there's no requirement that UK government agencies provide their data into the public domain, unlike the US
[18:51] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:51] <Laurenceb> this country sucks
[18:51] <russss> but also the met office is a trading fund - it's a commercial subsidiary which is wholly owned by the government. So they still make money out of their data
[18:51] <russss> see also, the Ordnance Survey.
[18:51] <Laurenceb> aha
[18:51] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:52] <Laurenceb> so effectively its a government owned ltd company
[18:52] <russss> didn't know it was owned by the MoD though
[18:53] <Laurenceb> they'll privatise the NHS next :-/
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[19:09] <DanielRichman> Ok that's weird. The camera just randomly fixed itself.... put it into superfine mode and the bleeding is gone
[19:09] <DanielRichman> be back later
[19:12] <Laurenceb> you put it back again and it worked?
[19:13] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, he put it into superfine mode and it worked. Then he put it back to 'normal' and it also works.
[19:13] <sbasuita> At least that's how I understand it
[19:14] <Laurenceb> weird
[19:15] <sbasuita> Thing is, there is no point launching the balloon if the camera is going to fail
[19:15] <sbasuita> Temperature graphs are nice, but not really a good return for value ;)
[19:16] <sbasuita> s/value/money s/value/effort
[19:19] <sbasuita> We'll definitely have to do some very thorough testing before I'm happy to fly with it
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[19:35] <natrium42> yo
[19:41] <Laurenceb> DAWG
[19:43] <sbasuita> I heard you like balloons so I put a balloon in your balloon so you can balloon whilst you balloon
[19:43] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/kUrT2.jpg <- this is not going to end well
[19:43] <sbasuita> shooped
[19:56] <Randomskk> but how can you tell
[19:59] <sbasuita> Randomskk, because nobody is that stupid
[20:00] <sbasuita> let's be fair
[20:00] <sbasuita> cutting down a tree is not a spontaneous action
[20:00] <sbasuita> its not like you can accidentally cut down a tree
[20:00] <sbasuita> so you have plenty of time to realise you're going to destroy your house
[20:00] <Laurenceb> I accidentaly 30meter of tree. Is this bad?
[20:00] <sbasuita> ; P
[20:04] Nick change: Laurenceb -> Zenu
[20:05] Nick change: Zenu -> Xenu
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[20:06] <Jon_Apex> very bad
[20:07] <Xenu> heh
[20:17] <Randomskk> sbasuita: well yea but if you are going to do a yo dawg and moments later call a shoop, do it right
[20:18] <Randomskk> it's because you can tell by the pixels and you have seen many shoops in your time :p
[20:20] Action: Randomskk scurries away to do another question
[20:21] <Xenu> heh problem sheet time :P
[20:21] <Xenu> I told you it would happen
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[20:32] <RocketBoy> http://halshop.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/phpw9jvl0pm.jpg <- now who does that remind me of?
[20:34] <RocketBoy> http://lgo.mit.edu/blog/drewhill/files/divide-by-zero-blog-safe.jpg
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[20:47] <natrium42> hey RocketBoy
[20:47] <natrium42> are you google wavin' yet?
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[21:05] <Xenu> http://www.alibaba.com/product-tp/11743215/2_200w_2_900w_Brushless_Motor.html
[21:26] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: OH SHI-
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[21:54] Nick change: bittwist -> BeeTeeFortyJew
[22:00] Nick change: BeeTeeFortyJew -> Simply_Murasame
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[22:00] <Xenu> thats racist
[22:01] <Randomskk> ¥
[22:01] <Xenu> BeeTeeFortyJew
[22:01] <Randomskk> oops
[22:02] <Randomskk> xenu is pretty shitty for scientologists too though
[22:02] <Simply_Murasame> Xenu: its only offensive to people who perceive any use of the word jew as offensive
[22:02] <Xenu> :P
[22:03] <Randomskk> good old scientologists
[22:03] <Randomskk> they were trying to convert people protesting them
[22:03] <Randomskk> pretty silly all around really
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[22:07] <Simply_Murasame> well
[22:07] <Simply_Murasame> a lot of "religions" do that
[22:07] <Simply_Murasame> join our side so you can fight who we are against!
[22:08] <Simply_Murasame> we have cake and punch!
[22:08] <Simply_Murasame> and delicious baked goods at a reasonable price during sunday bake sales
[22:08] <MikeMc> The cake is a lie
[22:08] <Randomskk> they were more in the business of offering free thetan level testing
[22:09] <Simply_Murasame> scientology is far more commerical than other religions
[22:09] <Simply_Murasame> sure some develop things to sell like scientology's plethora of paid material
[22:09] <Simply_Murasame> but they are not entirely based off that enterprise
[22:10] <MikeMc> This is certainly high altitude
[22:11] <Simply_Murasame> any channel that stays purely on topic is sure to be a boring one :P
[22:11] <MikeMc> You misread me ;)
[22:12] <Simply_Murasame> yea perhaps
[22:12] <Simply_Murasame> there was several ways it could be read as plain text, i just choose one
[22:12] <Simply_Murasame> darn irc :P
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[22:16] Nick change: Simply_Murasame -> bt420
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[23:14] <RocketBoy> natrium42: google wave? no - have you something in mind?
[23:16] <Xenu> what do you call a ddos attack on google wave?
[23:16] <Xenu> a tsunami
[23:20] <Randomskk> damnit, missed jon_apex
[23:20] <Randomskk> his room has a hidden secret compartment
[23:22] <Xenu> for your crack?
[23:22] <Xenu> going cold turkey?
[23:25] <natrium42> RocketBoy, it seems quite good to collaborate on projects
[23:25] <natrium42> better than email
[23:31] <Randomskk> Xenu: no
[23:31] <Randomskk> it's got all manner of weird stuff in it
[23:32] <Randomskk> mine had a license plate from a car/bike
[23:32] <Randomskk> someone else had a few kilos of quartz crystals
[23:32] <Randomskk> a less lucky third person got some muddy tracksuit bottoms
[23:32] <RocketBoy> natrium42: I had heard - I'll join up and give it a go
[23:33] <Randomskk> RocketBoy: gotta be invited iirc
[23:33] <Randomskk> still closed beta
[23:33] <Randomskk> otoh if anyone here has google wave invites to spare... <3
[23:35] <Randomskk> ooh, nice. looks like I get to take my foundation and intermediate radio exams on the same day
[23:35] <RocketBoy> ah - hence the comment "who do I have to sleep with to get a google wave invite" on a podcast I was listening to
[23:35] <Randomskk> start with nothing, hopefully get a foundation callsign an hour or so later, then another hour or so and I get an intermediate callsign
[23:36] <Randomskk> shame the intermediate ones suck compared to foundation, screw 2E0
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[23:40] <RocketBoy> nights
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[23:42] <Xenu> irc does everything I want
[23:42] <Xenu> what more could you ask for :P
[23:43] <Randomskk> sometimes ascii art just isn't high enough resolution
[23:43] <Randomskk> the solution, of course, is b64 encoded jpegs in the chat window.
[23:44] <Randomskk> just like the good old days of usenet
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[23:47] <bt420> Randomskk: word, but since it would mostly be used for pestering purposes
[23:47] <bt420> i dont think anyone would be willing to implement it
[23:47] <Randomskk> I can't actually tell if b64 images or ascii art would be more annoying?
[23:47] <Randomskk> want me to try both
[23:47] <Randomskk> you can tell me which annoys you more
[23:47] <bt420> <_<
[23:47] Action: bt420 backs away slowly
[23:48] <Randomskk> :p
[23:49] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[23:54] <Xenu> guess we need something better for camwhores
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[23:55] <SpeedEvil> a user mode 'understands media' - and just dcc URLs to camstreams'd work
[23:55] <Randomskk> true
[23:55] <Xenu> lol
[23:55] <Randomskk> or we can just do what people have always done on irc
[23:55] <Randomskk> namely post http urls to images
[23:56] <Randomskk> by always I mean "from the date of http becoming widely used"
[23:56] <Randomskk> and I mean "in addition to dcc"
[23:56] <Xenu> irc is old but good
[23:56] <Randomskk> yup
[23:57] <ms7821> s/good/hasn't been replaced yet/
[23:57] <Randomskk> :p
[23:57] <Xenu> oh well, gtg
[23:57] <Randomskk> anyway sleep time. bloody early starts.
[23:57] <Xenu> cya
[23:57] <Randomskk> seeya
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[23:59] Action: SpeedEvil sighs
[23:59] <SpeedEvil> Seems to be camera fail week.
[00:00] --- Mon Oct 19 2009