highaltitude.log.20091017

[00:00] <edmoore> jcoxon: great find!!
[00:02] <jcoxon> yeah i'm searching for ublox modules
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[00:04] <jcoxon> edmoore, http://www.navilock.de/produkte/gruppen/13/Boards_und_Module/61721_NL-552ETTL_ublox5.html
[00:04] <edmoore> not bad either
[00:05] <jcoxon> won't get so screwed on p&p
[00:06] <edmoore> yeah
[00:06] <edmoore> i just got hit by fedex
[00:07] <jcoxon> the older version of the navilock is 29 euros off amazon.de
[00:07] <Randomskk> edmoore: I love those invoice letters. "you must pay us £30 right away for that lovely shipping we did for you"
[00:08] <Randomskk> to be fair, customs clearance in <10min is impressive
[00:08] <jcoxon> do we have any europeans on the channel?
[00:09] <edmoore> i'm on the formal notice of legal action
[00:09] <edmoore> unless i phone them right away
[00:09] <Randomskk> wow, how long have you left off paying them?
[00:09] <edmoore> the problem is that there are now 2x Moore in the college, and this is too much for the porters
[00:09] <Randomskk> ...ah
[00:09] <edmoore> august 17th
[00:09] <Randomskk> lol jeez
[00:10] <Randomskk> you'd have hoped the other moore would realise the fedex invoice wasn't for him and leave it for you?
[00:10] <Randomskk> or better yet, pay it
[00:10] <edmoore> freshers are but simple folk
[00:10] <jcoxon> ooo edmoore got the ballast tank working with water
[00:10] <jcoxon> and got my avr controlling the valve
[00:11] <jcoxon> :-p
[00:11] <edmoore> niche :)
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[00:12] <jcoxon> need to get some ethanol tomorrow for a proper test
[00:12] <edmoore> no james, you can't do a centurian with ethanol
[00:12] <edmoore> let me save you that test
[00:13] <edmoore> just be sensible and use it for the ballast instead
[00:13] <jcoxon> :-)
[00:13] <jcoxon> thank goodness you stopped me ed
[00:13] <jcoxon> could have been messy
[00:16] <edmoore> i'm here to help
[00:17] <edmoore> and now to go to bed. 'flu will be beaten
[00:17] <Randomskk> you're still getting fresher's 'flu in 4th year? D:
[00:17] <Randomskk> goddamn I was hoping this was a one off
[00:17] <jcoxon> edmoore, you know that link i posted earlier of that ublox
[00:17] <edmoore> yep
[00:17] <jcoxon> well it seems they are a german company that makes it
[00:18] <jcoxon> sqeuoia is the distributer in the uk
[00:18] <jcoxon> but only stock the sirfIII modules
[00:18] <jcoxon> http://www.falcom.de/products/gps-modules/fsa03/
[00:19] <edmoore> may be worth a bell
[00:20] <jcoxon> yeah will email sequoia and say that if its a good price there could be a lot of interest
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[00:25] <jcoxon> night all
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[01:27] <dehuman> so whats up with this balloon boy nonsense?
[01:28] <dehuman> what kinda balloon could lift a kid? thats a pretty huge balloon yah?
[01:29] <dehuman> i dont know but seems to me it would take a big balloon to shoot a kid into the sky
[01:31] <SpeedEvil> approximately a cubic metre per kilo
[01:31] <SpeedEvil> say a 15kg kid - that's on the order of 3m diameter
[01:39] <dehuman> not including payload?
[01:39] <dehuman> is it plausible that a kid could crawl into a balloon and then fly away and it would look normal?
[01:40] <dehuman> seems to me you'd have to play for the extra weight of a kid and it wouldn't look normal at all and its crazy to think your kid accidently crawled into a balloon and call the cops and say 'help'
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[01:40] <dehuman> s/play/plan/
[01:41] <SpeedEvil> It would have to have been able to lift 15kg immediately before the kid climbed on, which means it would be tied down in some manner, with the rope having a force of 15kg on it
[01:41] <SpeedEvil> So the kid would need to climb on, and the rope somehow become detached
[01:43] <russss> yeah, mythbusters dealt with that one
[01:44] <SpeedEvil> Or - say - a 20kg payload in a box, kid crawls in, pushes payload out
[01:45] <SpeedEvil> craft is now 5kg lighter, and lifts
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[08:18] <jcoxon> morning all
[08:19] <SpeedEvil> yes
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[08:19] <jcoxon> haha
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[08:35] <jcoxon> morning edmoore
[08:35] <edmoore> morning
[08:35] <edmoore> all well?
[08:35] <jcoxon> yes thanks
[08:35] <jcoxon> you?
[08:36] <edmoore> not too bad. saturday morning chilling 'n' that
[08:36] <jcoxon> hehe
[08:36] <jcoxon> am just setting up a recently donated powerbook with macport so i can install dl-fldigi
[08:37] <edmoore> very nice
[08:37] <edmoore> why macport?
[08:37] <jcoxon> so i can compile stuff from source
[08:37] <edmoore> ah right
[08:39] <jcoxon> starting to think about some logic for testing the ballast tank on the next flight
[08:40] <edmoore> will you be doing it at the same time as an over-night flight?
[08:40] <edmoore> a floater, even
[08:40] <jcoxon> i think so yes
[08:40] <jcoxon> really need the conditions
[08:41] <edmoore> yeah
[08:42] <jcoxon> i was thinking, get it to float around 20km (less then last time at least)
[08:42] <jcoxon> after say 30mins of float, dump 1/2 tank
[08:42] <jcoxon> see if it resumes float at a higher alt
[08:42] <edmoore> yeah
[08:42] <jcoxon> maybe even 1/4 tank
[08:43] <jcoxon> the tank is going to be really small - maybe even this 250ml bottle i'm using right now
[08:44] <edmoore> if you could get two data points - i.e. dump half then dump the other half another 30 mins later, that could be really interesting
[08:45] <jcoxon> is it worth allowing it to resume floating in between?
[08:45] <jcoxon> this is the thing - its hard to work out what is the most useful test
[08:46] <jcoxon> perhaps dumping at bit after a few hours to make sure its working even when really cold
[08:46] <jcoxon> if i use a 250ml tank with ethanol thats 200g of weight
[08:46] <edmoore> i think it's worth that yep
[08:46] <edmoore> getting more info on this float behaviour, and how it oscillates, is useful
[08:47] <jcoxon> i guess the key is also to actually get a continous gps track :-p
[08:47] <edmoore> basically you can do a lot of analysis of a system by putting a step into it (i.e. it's suddently 125g lighter) and measuring the response
[08:47] <edmoore> that would help :)
[08:47] <edmoore> lots of insulation!
[08:47] <jcoxon> active heating i'm thinking
[08:49] <edmoore> maybe a slightly higher input voltage
[08:49] <edmoore> and a linear regulator
[08:49] <edmoore> so your reg chucks out a bit more heat
[08:49] <jcoxon> yeah
[08:50] <jcoxon> was thinking of placing something heat conductive between the reg and the radio module
[08:50] <edmoore> and then a sealed polystyrene box
[08:50] <jcoxon> they are adjacent on the board
[08:50] <edmoore> foil/space blanket on the inside will make a big difference too
[08:50] <jcoxon> got my temp sensor working so now we'll know...
[08:51] <edmoore> an external one would be really interesting too
[08:52] <jcoxon> will do that as well
[08:52] <jcoxon> just need to get another ds1820
[08:52] <jcoxon> also adding a photocell
[08:52] <jcoxon> to 'detect' sunset and sunrise from the point of view of the payload
[08:52] <jcoxon> simple yet interesting
[08:53] <edmoore> yeah
[08:53] <jcoxon> basically i've got a secondary avr now
[08:53] <jcoxon> the atlas pcb just uses i2c to grab some info but gets on with its job
[08:54] <jcoxon> and all the new stuff stays with the slave avr
[09:03] <jcoxon> edmoore, do you remember what balloon size we used on the first ballasthalo?
[09:03] <edmoore> 1.5 i think
[09:04] <edmoore> to stick with wb8elk as much as possible
[09:04] <jcoxon> that was the second one
[09:04] <jcoxon> i think the first one we used a 1.2
[09:04] <edmoore> ah ok
[09:04] <jcoxon> just putting together a table of float data so we can start to work stuff out
[09:05] <jcoxon> i think its the one i got off you
[09:05] <jcoxon> i got the second balloon of steve
[09:05] <jcoxon> (did you ever get the cheque i sent you on a side note)
[09:05] <edmoore> yes, thanks
[09:09] <jcoxon> okay good, sent it hte day l left for ghana
[09:09] <jcoxon> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/missions:ballasthalo#float_data
[09:13] <edmoore> grand
[09:13] <edmoore> it'll be exciting!
[09:14] <jcoxon> hehe, i do like a good old float mission
[09:14] <jcoxon> do you still have mission control or did you have to give that back?
[09:20] <edmoore> sorry, went to the loo
[09:20] <edmoore> we can still use 52D, yep
[09:20] <edmoore> or we may be able to use the top floor of the engineering dept
[09:21] <jcoxon> great
[09:21] <jcoxon> aiming for early november
[09:21] <edmoore> we can test out the track-a-tron
[09:21] <jcoxon> oooo is that working now
[09:22] <edmoore> yep
[09:22] <jcoxon> edmoore, do you think its made to do self fabbed pcbs?
[09:22] <edmoore> oh oh, may have to geek out today actually
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[09:22] <jcoxon> mad*
[09:22] <edmoore> and build both a couple of handi-tennas and 4 long yagis
[09:22] <edmoore> no - we do them too now
[09:23] <edmoore> with maplin starter pcb kit gave great results
[09:23] <jcoxon> oh really
[09:23] <edmoore> yep
[09:23] <jcoxon> thats what i was considering
[09:23] <edmoore> had to knock one up one evening and maplins was still open
[09:23] <jcoxon> did you do the laser printer trick?
[09:24] <edmoore> transparency + halogen lamp
[09:26] <jcoxon> oh they claim they've discontinue it
[09:30] <jcoxon> thats a shame
[09:30] <edmoore> i think rpid would probably do something
[09:30] <edmoore> rapid*
[09:31] <jcoxon> http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=319
[09:35] <edmoore> pricey!
[09:38] <jcoxon> yeah
[09:38] <jcoxon> i wish olimex was in the uk
[09:46] <jcoxon> edmoore, have you ever looked at seeedstudio for pcbs?
[09:47] <edmoore> nope
[09:47] <edmoore> used pcbtrain
[09:47] <jcoxon> http://www.seeedstudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Opensourcepcb
[09:48] <jcoxon> they give you a refund if you opensource your design
[09:48] <edmoore> wow, that's cool
[09:49] <jcoxon> still trying to get my head round their bit at the bottom
[09:49] <jcoxon> their bit refering to the table
[09:50] <jcoxon> oh i see
[09:50] <jcoxon> so 10 boards of 5x5 cost $30
[09:51] <jcoxon> if you let them keep 5 and sell them and you get 5 then they'll refund you $12
[09:58] <edmoore> sorry was on phone to gf
[09:58] <edmoore> oh, jcoxon, have my gf's empty flat tonight
[09:58] <edmoore> hrm that sounds like a proposition
[09:59] <edmoore> but basically, she's off to some party that I, feeling a bit under t'weather, can't really deal with. but it's in stratford and it has a web connection
[10:00] <edmoore> anyway, wondering if you wanted a beer and maybe talk shop etc
[10:02] <jcoxon> edmoore, i'm free until 8pm tonight
[10:02] <edmoore> ah, that's when I'm free *from*
[10:02] <edmoore> :p
[10:02] <jcoxon> then have to see my gf - she is on call this weekend so i promised i'd pop round
[10:02] <edmoore> they get in the way
[10:02] <edmoore> has she come to see the fun side of HABbing yet?
[10:03] <jcoxon> yes you met her
[10:03] <jcoxon> oh right
[10:03] <jcoxon> misread that
[10:03] <jcoxon> nope still doesn't get it
[10:04] <edmoore> I will try it out on tess soon
[10:04] <jcoxon> hmmm shame about the beer - would have been good
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[10:10] <edmoore> greeting Tyke
[10:11] <Tyke> Anyone know anything about balloons? Doing my first launch in the morning.
[10:11] <jcoxon> Tyke, yes you've come to the right place..
[10:11] <jcoxon> whats the question?
[10:12] <edmoore> heard of 'em. big round things, they go up if you put the right stuff in them.
[10:12] <Tyke> I guess I have a few but first is, how acurate is the trajectory predition of http://weather.uwyo.edu/polar/balloon_traj.html ?
[10:12] <jcoxon> its good
[10:12] <jcoxon> but you shouldn't use it alone
[10:12] <edmoore> these algorithms use a pretty reliable model for the imulation
[10:13] <jcoxon> worth eyeballing the wind maps for 300mb as well
[10:13] <jcoxon> edmoore, would cusf lp work?
[10:13] <edmoore> but you can't really specify things like ascent rate and descent rate with them
[10:13] <jcoxon> for australia
[10:13] <edmoore> yep
[10:13] <edmoore> no problem
[10:13] <edmoore> Tyke: cuspaceflight.co.uk/predict
[10:13] <edmoore> there we have allowed you to input a few more paramaters for a more accurate simulation
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[10:14] <Tyke> Excellent. I'll try it now.
[10:15] <edmoore> Tyke: times are UTC on that, FYI
[10:15] <jcoxon> Tyke, if you have happy to pass on your launch coords we can have a look at the wind maps as well
[10:16] <edmoore> the float parameter is for niche stuff, leave it at zero unless you have some kind of valving system that lets you float, like jcoxon has been successfully doing
[10:16] <Tyke> Sure: Launch -37.7943, 145.0092
[10:17] <jcoxon> what you launching?
[10:17] <jcoxon> okay so you don't want it going south :-p
[10:18] <jcoxon> what time is the launch?
[10:19] <Tyke> Launch at 18/10/2009 8am Melbourne time.
[10:19] <Tyke> I think that will be 2100 YTC on 17th
[10:19] <edmoore> what's the payload?
[10:20] <Tyke> LOL, yeah, going south would be an issue. Payload is too heavy. Camera (A470) running CHDK. Balloon is Kaymont 350g sounding
[10:20] <edmoore> ok cool
[10:20] <Tyke> I copied the kids at 1337arts (yeah another guy, guess you have had a few).
[10:20] <edmoore> do you have a means of calculating the fill and ascent rate and bust altitude?
[10:21] <jcoxon> Tyke, not perfect weather though not too bad, should go East and slightly north
[10:21] <Tyke> None at all. Measure diameter to 1.25 meters I guess. Sorry, I have no idea about this bit.
[10:21] <edmoore> Tyke: ^
[10:21] <jcoxon> at 30 knots or so
[10:21] <jcoxon> wow zeusbot still works!
[10:22] <edmoore> the link doesn't seem to though :)
[10:26] <edmoore> macports is so good
[10:27] <jcoxon> Tyke, what comms are you using?
[10:32] <Tyke> Xbee XSC 900Mhz - likely won't get far enough. Backup is a GSM GPS device, call it and it gives you it's location.
[10:33] <Tyke> Should be fine as long as A: Don't land in a forest, B: somewhere with cell coverage.
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[10:34] <jcoxon> hehe, sounds good
[10:34] <jcoxon> how are those trajectory forecasts going?
[10:36] <Tyke> Good, both tend to agree. But even if they are spot on for a perfect launch, there is still a chance I under / over inflate it.
[10:37] <jcoxon> they actually use the same data source
[10:38] <jcoxon> but deal with it in different ways
[10:38] <jcoxon> 350g balloon is quite small so it shouldn't go 'too' high
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[10:51] <Tyke> I was thinking the same, it has around 450g of free lift, is that enough?
[10:54] <edmoore> sounds fair
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[10:55] <sbasuita> edmoore, looks like you were right about the lift of that american balloon
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[10:58] Nick change: RocketBoy -> RocketBoy|away
[11:00] <jcoxon> on eagle how do you assign names to the various pins on a header?
[11:01] <jcoxon> or is it just with free text?
[11:04] <edmoore> free text
[11:04] <edmoore> label the track
[11:04] <edmoore> if you label it at both ends, you'll get an air-wire in the layout view
[11:10] <jcoxon> hmmm another question, if i delete a via it leaves a little 'hole' which i can't seem to delete
[11:15] <jcoxon> cya all
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[14:19] <edmoore> hi SpikeUK
[14:20] <SpikeUK> edmoore - afternoon!
[14:20] <edmoore> how's it going?
[14:21] <SpikeUK> Fine thanks! Working on designing the Moo cards for next weekend. You?
[14:21] <edmoore> I tried some of the free moo cards as it happens
[14:22] <edmoore> they should arrive on monday hopefully
[14:22] <edmoore> I'm looking at a wee project to help improve real-time landing prediction
[14:22] <edmoore> but it's a bit early days and probs won't amount to much
[14:23] <edmoore> also trying to get to grips with master's project - a balloon-lofted telescope
[14:24] <SpikeUK> Good stuff! The predictor seems to work fine. Are you looking to update and re-calculate based upon true data?
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> true data?
[14:25] <SpikeUK> --observer data during flight?
[14:25] <SpikeUK> observer = observed
[14:25] <edmoore> yeah. a sort of bayesian approach to combining the fact you have this prior (the forecast) and some real data (the telemetry) and trying to make a better prediction of the rest of the flight based upon that, rather than just re-running the 'prior' data from the latest position
[14:26] <edmoore> but the paramater space for the model seems to be pretty big, so I'm just trying to see what assumptions can be got away with
[14:26] <Randomskk> sounds suspiciously like a kalman filter
[14:26] <edmoore> Kalman filter assumes gaussian everything
[14:26] <edmoore> particle filter, in this case
[14:26] <edmoore> but they're similar
[14:27] <Randomskk> ah, okay
[14:27] <edmoore> but i'm no expert myself, and I think it could become a slightly unwieldy thing. Still, worth an afternoon's tinkering
[14:27] <Randomskk> does that count as electronics or control?
[14:28] <edmoore> kalman filters?
[14:28] <Randomskk> your project
[14:28] <edmoore> they touch on them in 3rd year state-space control (the observer stuff) and do them properly in 4th year digital filters
[14:29] <edmoore> my project is a bit of a hodge-podge
[14:29] <edmoore> control I guess
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: is this a proper telescope, or just another webcamish?
[14:29] <edmoore> hopefully an EOS-20a
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> with what sort of lens?
[14:30] <edmoore> and not particularly big lens. some wide-field shots of the milky-way would do my fine, thank you very much
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> Stacked?
[14:30] <edmoore> haven't even thought about ground processing yet
[14:31] <edmoore> i imgine deconvolution on a per-image basis and then stacking
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> I mean
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> Are you going for a 20min exposure pointed to within a pixel, or a thousand 1s exposures
[14:33] <edmoore> i don't think the response of CCDs in linear in a way that allows that, but I need to do more research (can you see a pattern emerging here?)
[14:33] <edmoore> but yes, some kind of hybrid between the two I imigine
[14:33] <SpeedEvil> It depends
[14:33] <edmoore> thanks for the insight :p
[14:34] <SpeedEvil> readout noise of good CCDs can be quite low - under 5 photoelectrons
[14:34] <SpeedEvil> i don't however know what the readout noise is of the eos
[14:34] <SpeedEvil> presumably there are astrophotography forums you could ask on
[14:34] <edmoore> yep
[14:35] <edmoore> i think I need to fight the battle with state estimation and control first
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> you're looking for wide field images then?
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> Generally
[14:35] <edmoore> I guess so. I don't have much mass budget
[14:35] <edmoore> would really just like to prove the concept
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> even crap pointing would have uses
[14:36] <SpeedEvil> antennas and stuff
[14:36] <edmoore> oh sure, will try that too
[14:36] <edmoore> will make a lightweight yagi
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[15:01] <edmoore> jcoxon: greetings
[15:01] <edmoore> in answer to prev question about deleting vias - does it leave an 'X'?
[15:02] <Randomskk> jcoxon: that via problem, you need to unroute the tracks either side, then the via itself, then you're left with an X, then hit ratsnest
[15:02] <Randomskk> lol
[15:02] <edmoore> spot the eagle users
[15:02] <Randomskk> also woo my pcbs from hong kong arrived
[15:03] <edmoore> Randomskk: I am going to Mackays to see if there is some useful stuff for building some antennas
[15:03] <Randomskk> (at home, anyway)
[15:03] <edmoore> eg some Yagis
[15:03] <edmoore> a) have you been to Mackays
[15:03] <Randomskk> nope
[15:03] <edmoore> ok, you really want to and need to
[15:03] <edmoore> b) would you like to come?
[15:03] <edmoore> it's tool heaven and it's about 2 mins down lensfield road
[15:03] <Randomskk> this one http://www.mackay.co.uk/ I take it?
[15:04] <edmoore> yes
[15:04] <Randomskk> I have nothing better to do than examples papers today
[15:04] <edmoore> I'll pick you up by selwyn in 8 minutes
[15:04] <Randomskk> and this seems to be the weekend for other engineers to have their boy/girlfriends visit
[15:04] <edmoore> pm me your mob
[15:04] <Randomskk> okay. I'm in cripps
[15:04] <edmoore> i'm about to go and visit gf as it happens
[15:04] <edmoore> leaving at 5
[15:04] <Randomskk> haha see
[15:05] <edmoore> cripps - is that the soviet thing across the road?
[15:05] <Randomskk> yea.
[15:05] <Randomskk> the 60's tower block
[15:06] <edmoore> ok. silver astra outside by 15:14
[15:06] Nick change: edmoore -> edmoore|away
[15:15] Nick change: RocketBoy|away -> RocketBoy
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[15:25] <SpikeUK> RocketBoy hi!
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[16:44] <gordonjcp> anyone here going to Lugradio Live?
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[17:18] <ms7821> lol
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[17:43] <jcoxon> hey any one around?
[17:43] <Randomskk> hi
[17:43] <Randomskk> (not for long though)
[17:44] <jcoxon> hehe, how was shopping with ed?
[17:44] <Randomskk> not very fruitful
[17:44] <Randomskk> they didn't have any really suitable bits
[17:44] <jcoxon> shame
[17:44] <Randomskk> they did suggest a few other places that might though
[17:44] <jcoxon> Randomskk, you know that we have issues with gps modules above 18km
[17:44] <Randomskk> yea
[17:45] <jcoxon> can you check out this datasheet:
[17:45] <jcoxon> GPS-320FW
[17:45] <jcoxon> oops
[17:45] <jcoxon> http://www.rfsolutions.co.uk/acatalog/DS320-2.pdf
[17:45] <jcoxon> and tell me what you think it means on the 2nd page about altitude limits
[17:45] <Randomskk> lol how conflicting
[17:45] <Randomskk> hmm no that seems okay
[17:46] <jcoxon> hehe
[17:46] <jcoxon> cause that gps is only ?18
[17:46] <jcoxon> http://www.rfsolutions.co.uk/acatalog/Board_Level_GPS_Receiver_Module.html
[17:46] <Randomskk> it does seem to say it works at any altitude so long as speed is less than 515, or vice versa
[17:47] <Randomskk> limit is alt < x or velocity < y
[17:47] <Randomskk> with the second bit clarifying
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> I'd say that is totally clear
[17:48] <Randomskk> anyway better run, time for foundation license practicals
[17:48] <jcoxon> its one of those things that makes you think though
[17:48] <jcoxon> Randomskk, good luck - its not hard even i passed
[17:48] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, looks like quite a suitable gps
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> wass+eggnog too
[17:50] <jcoxon> hmmm guess it'll need to be tested at alt
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[17:51] <fuzzylugnuts> Hey
[17:51] <fuzzylugnuts> I got messing with the old gumstix I used to use as a fliught computer... http://coyotefirecracker.selfip.com/ it now hosts my webpage
[17:51] <jcoxon> hey fuzzylugnuts
[17:52] <jcoxon> hehe cool
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> fuzzylugnuts: it's going to be problematic to keep it up while it's flying though.
[17:52] <fuzzylugnuts> haha
[17:52] <fuzzylugnuts> I have a new toy for that
[17:54] <gordonjcp> fuzzylugnuts: awesome
[17:54] <fuzzylugnuts> instead of gumstix, I'm going to be using the phidget sbc thats built onto one of their interface boards
[17:56] <jcoxon> ooo cool
[17:58] <fuzzylugnuts> oh, I've got a thermocouple so I can finally sense temperatures down to -70C and such.
[17:59] <fuzzylugnuts> I think the other one I used only goes to -40
[18:01] <fuzzylugnuts> and no place to launch
[18:02] <jcoxon> :-(
[18:03] <fuzzylugnuts> I figure that I'll just go back out west to launch so I don't have to deal with the backwoods hicks and general southern retardedness that is TN.
[18:07] <jcoxon> :-)
[18:07] <jcoxon> bbiab
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[22:00] <naxxfish> allo world
[22:00] <naxxfish> question: what do people use for cutdown?
[22:03] <Randomskk> a resistor to melt through thin plastic rope or hot glue holding rope seems popular
[22:04] <naxxfish> i've used that idea before to set off fireworks
[22:05] <naxxfish> some people seem to use nichrome wire
[22:05] <Randomskk> as the heater or the part that breaks?
[22:05] <Randomskk> nichrome wire is essentially a resistor
[22:06] <naxxfish> i'm not entirely sure, i think they're just using it to heat up nylon cord
[22:06] <Randomskk> it does heat up easily though
[22:06] <Randomskk> yea.
[22:06] <Randomskk> nichrome is the stuff you use like for foam cutters or in physics experiments into resistance vs temperature :P
[22:06] <naxxfish> heh yeah
[22:06] <Randomskk> or in some heaters etc. it'd work pretty nicely.
[22:07] <naxxfish> also, it's very cheap :D
[22:07] <Randomskk> not as cheap as a resistor though
[22:07] <naxxfish> hmm, true
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[22:22] <Laurenceb> hi
[22:23] <Randomskk> heya
[22:24] <naxxfish> gday
[22:37] <naxxfish> i've got a society at my uni, tinkersoc.org, and i'm trying to team up with another society, space soc, to do a balloon :p
[22:37] <Randomskk> I wish my university had a tinkersoc, assuming it is what it sounds like
[22:37] <naxxfish> make one then? :p
[22:38] <naxxfish> i thought the exact same thing the year I started, so I started it
[22:38] <Randomskk> probably could
[22:38] <naxxfish> we've only been running for a year (a little less, in fact)
[22:39] <naxxfish> got nominated for best new society with the union last year, but got beaten by spacesoc :p
[22:39] <Randomskk> lol nice
[22:40] <naxxfish> the only annoying thing is the beaurocracy involved doesn't mesh well with us practical types
[22:40] <Randomskk> I dread to think
[22:41] Action: naxxfish remembers having to fill out risk assessment forms for giving talks
[22:41] <Randomskk> ...
[22:41] <Randomskk> wow lol
[22:41] <Laurenceb> if I have a process running an sending data back through a pipe, is there and way to have two pipes?
[22:41] <Randomskk> "someone might look into the ohp and blind themselves"
[22:41] <naxxfish> "Possible risk: falling over whilst running out of room screaming"
[22:42] <Randomskk> well that's the possible, uh, situation or danger or whatever
[22:42] <Randomskk> the risk is hopefully pretty minimal
[22:42] <naxxfish> Laurenceb: using a backpipe?
[22:42] <naxxfish> well, yes >_<
[22:42] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, you mean each process taking input and outputting to the other?
[22:42] <Laurenceb> I'm writing some RTTY receiving code
[22:43] <Laurenceb> theres on main bit thats fired up
[22:43] <Laurenceb> then it splits the process that talks to the sound card and generates a bitstream
[22:43] <Laurenceb> the bitstream comes back through a pipe
[22:43] <gordonjcp> Randomskk: I got a minor bollocking for putting "Possible Risk: H&S guy getting bogwashed by irate Senior Support Engineer"
[22:43] <Laurenceb> but I also way tracking loop information and stuff
[22:44] <Laurenceb> so I was a second way to pass back information
[22:44] <Laurenceb> *want
[22:44] <Randomskk> gordonjcp: totally, totally worth it
[22:45] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, I didn't realise it was hard to have two seperate data streams?
[22:45] <sbasuita> as in, i've never done it but assumed it was trivial
[22:45] <Laurenceb> oh
[22:45] <Randomskk> naxxfish: so I guess I'd love to join a tinkersoc but not run one
[22:46] <Laurenceb> but if you fork a process usding pipes, then that process sees stdin and out as the pipes
[22:46] <Laurenceb> so where do you send another data stream?
[22:46] <Randomskk> sockets
[22:47] <Laurenceb> oh yeah those... :P
[22:47] <Laurenceb> bah
[22:47] <Randomskk> sockets aren't that bad really
[22:47] <Randomskk> they are just like pipes
[22:47] <naxxfish> Randomskk: quite possibly :P you could try seeding it and get some other people to run it :p
[22:47] <Randomskk> also just like files
[22:48] <Randomskk> in fact everything is just like files
[22:48] <Laurenceb> yeah
[22:48] <naxxfish> sockets are useful beasts
[22:48] <Laurenceb> guess I have to learn sockets
[22:48] <Laurenceb> then
[22:48] <sbasuita> They're not too bad
[22:48] <Randomskk> not much to learn really
[22:48] <sbasuita> just like writing to/from file descriptors
[22:48] <Randomskk> yea.
[22:48] <Laurenceb> ok, so I have two sockets
[22:48] <Randomskk> in fact basically identical
[22:48] <Randomskk> usually same function calls
[22:48] <naxxfish> just matter of setting them up differently
[22:48] <Laurenceb> hmm then really it needs some sort of gui
[22:48] <Laurenceb> this should be fun
[22:49] <naxxfish> you doing it in C?
[22:49] <Laurenceb> I might use python for the main code
[22:49] <Randomskk> or passing a socket location in the command line
[22:49] <Randomskk> python!
[22:49] <Randomskk> do it!
[22:49] <sbasuita> yay python :)
[22:49] <Laurenceb> I prefer c
[22:49] <Randomskk> personally I'd do python for everything, using C modules where appropriate
[22:49] <sbasuita> yes
[22:49] <sbasuita> next time a suitable project comes up i will learn how to combine python and c
[22:49] Action: naxxfish has python on his phone, so he can write scripts to send SMSes and stuff in the field XD
[22:50] <Randomskk> same but I cba making scripts "in the field"
[22:50] <Randomskk> android?
[22:50] <naxxfish> yup :D ASE
[22:50] <Randomskk> not getting that tla
[22:50] <naxxfish> Android Scripting Environment
[22:51] <Randomskk> ooh, right. yea.
[22:51] <Randomskk> was thinking types of phone or something
[22:51] <naxxfish> you can also put LUA on it, if you really want to
[22:51] <Randomskk> if you really really want to.
[22:51] <Randomskk> but you have python...
[22:51] <naxxfish> well, quite
[22:51] <Randomskk> personally I wish you could write actual apps in python
[22:51] <Randomskk> too slow/cpu intensive though
[22:51] <naxxfish> hmm, me too
[22:51] <Randomskk> fuck java
[22:51] <sbasuita> Most desktop apps don't really need fast cpu
[22:52] <naxxfish> at least it's not J2ME
[22:52] <Randomskk> sbasuita: mobile phones, otoh...
[22:52] <sbasuita> hmm
[22:52] <Randomskk> need fast because they are slow, and efficient because they are battery powered
[22:53] <naxxfish> plus you're at the mercy of the scheduler more with a slower CPU
[22:53] <naxxfish> had some horrible problems with that doing S60 stuff
[22:54] <sbasuita> You would think phones had real time kernels for all that radio stuff, no?
[22:54] <Randomskk> radio stuff is mostly on a separate chip
[22:54] <naxxfish> they do - but that doesn't apply to the apps
[22:55] <Laurenceb> TI make a lot of radio chipsets
[22:55] <Laurenceb> they have a custom RTOS for ARM7 IIRC
[22:56] <naxxfish> my final year project is to port FreeRTOS to a PIC24 ... which is going to be fun
[22:56] <Laurenceb> then it many cases its as simple as serial comms to the application processor
[22:56] <Randomskk> I need to have a play with freertos some time
[22:56] <Randomskk> on this delightful stm32
[22:57] <Laurenceb> argg
[22:57] <Laurenceb> http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Rip-a-Heart-Out-of-Someones-Chest/
[22:58] <naxxfish> i've got a NXP ARM7 micro somewhere, never really thought of anything to use it for though
[22:58] <Randomskk> sounds awesome
[22:58] <Laurenceb> thats what CUSF use
[22:59] <Randomskk> for a moment there I thought you meant the heart-chest-ripping-procedure
[22:59] <Laurenceb> I've was trying to get one working a while back
[22:59] <Laurenceb> getting a compiler sertup is _hard_
[22:59] <naxxfish> hmm, so i've heard
[22:59] <Randomskk> check out leaflabs
[22:59] <Laurenceb> theres just so little information to go off :-/
[22:59] <Randomskk> they are just opened preorders for their Maple board
[22:59] <Laurenceb> I gave up :(
[22:59] <Randomskk> it's an stm32
[23:00] <Randomskk> with the entire build environment done for you
[23:00] <Laurenceb> after about a week of working on it
[23:00] <Randomskk> in an arduino-compatible pinout to start with
[23:00] <naxxfish> one of my coursemates is having some awful trouble getting the linking to work right
[23:00] <Randomskk> and a second version in a native pinout
[23:00] <Randomskk> www.leaflabs.com iirc
[23:01] <Laurenceb> even where I was working last year they had serious greif trying to get an ARM compiler setup
[23:01] <Laurenceb> and they were spending a fortune on applications
[23:01] <Randomskk> they're trying to make stm32 as easy to play with as arduino did avr (though avrs are already pretty easy)
[23:01] <Randomskk> and all free software.
[23:01] <Randomskk> they are also trying to do it for an fpga which will be fun to see
[23:02] <naxxfish> i've not seen a FPGA with a decent development environment which works on Linux yet
[23:02] <Randomskk> both xilinix and altera have linux versions of their software iirc?
[23:03] <Randomskk> I have xilinix webpack for my spartan 3e here
[23:03] <Randomskk> not touched it yet though, no time
[23:03] <naxxfish> i've not been able to make Quartus work properly on Linux yet
[23:04] <Laurenceb> I've found spartan 3 suprisingly eassy to use
[23:04] <Laurenceb> the tools are pretty foolproof
[23:05] <Randomskk> what I want is a to edit a few text files in my text editor, run 'make' and 'make upload' and be done
[23:05] <Randomskk> sadly that just doesn't seem to be an option
[23:05] <Laurenceb> no its all built about a gui application
[23:05] <Randomskk> yea, webpack.
[23:06] <Randomskk> but I wonder if there is something available
[23:06] <Randomskk> screw massive complicated heavy guis
[23:06] <Randomskk> thing is fpgas are about so complicated you kinda need it
[23:06] <Laurenceb> yeah the GUI makes it stupidly simple
[23:06] <Laurenceb> http://imgur.voxcdn.com/8pct5.png
[23:07] <Randomskk> good
[23:07] <Randomskk> stupid microsoft installing firefox plugins without asking
[23:08] <natrium42> microsoft knows better than you.
[23:09] <Randomskk> luckily I don't run microsoft software
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[23:21] <Laurenceb> so if I use sockets for interprocess communication, where are the sockets?
[23:21] <Laurenceb> I dont really follow
[23:21] <Laurenceb> I have to have a local address?
[23:24] <Randomskk> they are 'files'
[23:25] <Randomskk> you address them with a file path
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[23:25] <Randomskk> /tmp/my_awesome_socket
[23:25] <Randomskk> you read and write to them
[23:25] <Randomskk> and anything else with that socket open can similarly read or write to them
[23:26] <Laurenceb> ah ok
[23:27] <Laurenceb> I was assuming it was an ip address or something
[23:27] <Laurenceb> doh
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[23:37] <Laurenceb> so is the data actually written to the file
[23:37] <Laurenceb> or just cached?
[23:38] <Randomskk> it's not a real file
[23:38] <Randomskk> so it's also not cached
[23:38] <Randomskk> it's 'written' to other programs 'reading' from the file
[23:38] <Laurenceb> yeah
[23:38] <Randomskk> by programs I mean processes
[23:38] <Laurenceb> sure
[23:38] <Randomskk> or threads
[23:39] <Randomskk> if it helps, think of it as a network socket
[23:39] <Randomskk> you are transmitting and someone else is receiving
[23:39] <Laurenceb> how does this differ from pipes?
[23:39] <Randomskk> rather than reading or writing
[23:39] <Randomskk> I think pipes and sockets are probably pretty similar. never actually written programs to use pipes though, only sockets.
[23:40] <Randomskk> well excluding the fact that really pipes are just stdin and stdout
[23:40] <Randomskk> and obviously I've used both, but both tend to be used specially, e.g. with cout rather than a socket object in c++
[23:40] <Laurenceb> yeah
[23:40] <Laurenceb> I've used pipes to interface matlab with hardware
[23:41] <Laurenceb> but I dont have much experience with this sort of thing
[23:42] Action: Laurenceb is thinking about some sort of packet structure
[23:42] <Laurenceb> I'd be tempted to go with something like TSIP for the data
[23:42] <Laurenceb> but FEC would be nice
[23:43] <Laurenceb> my plan ATM is to have some sort of packet header, then you can search for the header in the data
[23:43] <Laurenceb> i.e. a frequency/delay space search
[23:43] <Laurenceb> then initialise the tracking loops to track the signal
[23:44] <Laurenceb> so theres one main process that forks stuff to track the acquire/track the signal
[23:44] <Laurenceb> then those process feed back a bitstream
[23:44] <Laurenceb> and the main process interprets this
[23:45] <Laurenceb> ideally it would talk to my icom with libhamlib, so its completely automated
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[23:48] <Laurenceb> if I use the standard technique of interleaving a bitstream, theres no packet headers to lock onto
[23:50] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, you could just use udp if you need packets
[23:51] <sbasuita> ie. leverage the ip stack
[23:52] <Laurenceb> this is for talking to a hab
[23:52] <Laurenceb> its one way and the tx has to run on a micro
[23:52] <sbasuita> I mean for internal comms
[23:53] <Laurenceb> ok
[23:53] <Laurenceb> no I just have a bitstream from the tracking loop code
[23:53] <Laurenceb> I've worked all that out
[23:54] <Laurenceb> its the structure of the HAB data
[23:54] <Laurenceb> that I'm unsure of
[23:55] <Laurenceb> I think I'll try something to support the UKHAS protocol first
[23:55] <Laurenceb> then work on a binary packet protocol
[23:56] <SpeedEvil> start/stop bits aren't bad for training
[23:56] <SpeedEvil> something like standard protocol, then 10 bytes ECC data with the high bit all set
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[23:57] <Laurenceb> just use the callsign
[23:57] <Laurenceb> thats simple
[23:57] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[23:57] <Laurenceb> correlate with the callsign
[23:57] <Laurenceb> oh well gtg, cya
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[23:57] <SpeedEvil> wave
[23:58] sbasuita (n=sbasuita@unaffiliated/drebellion) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[00:00] --- Sun Oct 18 2009