highaltitude.log.20091014

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[00:59] <jiffe99> wow, is the sizing chart on spherachutes right?
[01:00] <jiffe99> we're looking at a 1.25 kg payload which is 44 ounces and that looks to need > 170" circ/2
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[01:02] <jiffe99> ah I think I am just looking at that wrong
[01:32] <jiffe99> ok, so the balloon is attached to the chute which is attached to the payload, the balloons are designed to shred after bursting but something must remain after burst, no? a mount point etc?
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[01:38] <jiffe99> I guess we could activate the cutdown regardless to ensure nothing is hanging on
[01:39] <SpeedEvil> You typically get some of the balloon left as I understnad
[01:39] <SpeedEvil> And i don't know of parachute sizing
[01:40] <jiffe99> I think 36" will work for this
[01:40] <jiffe99> just worried about it getting tangled with balloon remnants
[01:40] <natrium42> yeah, that's always a risk
[01:41] <natrium42> i always wanted to try a differential pressure sensor to detect burst
[01:42] <jiffe99> filtered gps altitude might work
[01:43] <natrium42> maybe
[01:43] <natrium42> you need to be fast
[01:43] <SpeedEvil> Problem is.
[01:43] <SpeedEvil> That's exactly the worst aspect of GPS
[01:44] <SpeedEvil> rapid vertical movements
[01:44] <SpeedEvil> rapid vertical accellerations even
[01:44] <SpeedEvil> Of course - you can put the balloon on 100m of string
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[01:45] <natrium42> it can tangle with the string just as well :P
[01:46] <natrium42> i have seem some people use tensioning rings under the chute
[01:46] <natrium42> perhaps that will help as a low-tech solution
[01:47] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[01:47] <SpeedEvil> cutting down at well before burst is safe
[01:47] <SpeedEvil> 25km say
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[02:11] <juxta> has anybody used the ICOM 706 for tracking?
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[04:27] <juxta> SpeedEvil, are you about?
[04:31] <SpeedEvil> ish
[05:08] <juxta> was going to ask your opinion re lithium AA's and their voltages, but I found some and tested them :)
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[07:54] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jcoxon!n=jcoxon@host86-168-218-188.range86-168.btcentralplus.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk, wiki.ukhas.org.uk, potential trans-a attempt SDG-10, 15/10/09 0400UTC, http://arhab.blogspot.com/
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[12:07] <Laurenceb> sup
[12:07] <Laurenceb> edmoore: nice work with the badgerboard2 - now you can do a full IMU
[12:08] <Laurenceb> with software gps as well :P what was the thinking behind using gumstix for gps? wont latency be an issue with it running linux?
[12:09] <edmoore> Laurenceb: I think there's some kernal hack that deals with the driver side
[12:10] <SpeedEvil> you don't care about latency as long as you can cope with the stream
[12:10] <edmoore> then you just batch-process samples
[12:10] <Laurenceb> I see
[12:10] <Laurenceb> using DMA ?
[12:10] <Laurenceb> for getting the data into ram
[12:11] <edmoore> I think you can map some amount of physical memory direct, i assume with DMA. I don;t really know
[12:11] <edmoore> it needs a rev2 on the board before we get there
[12:11] <Laurenceb> ah ok
[12:11] <edmoore> my pcb design isn't as good as it could be ;)
[12:11] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Product-Level-Samsung-S3C2440-ARM9-ARM-Core-Board_W0QQitemZ110413382725QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b5268445&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14
[12:11] <SpeedEvil> also possibly interesting
[12:11] <Laurenceb> did you ever get any satellites found witrh the rocketboard?
[12:12] <edmoore> the rf front-end layout was incorrect on the rocketboard, I understand. henry has sent through a new design which i'll put on b2
[12:13] <Laurenceb> ah interesting
[12:13] <Laurenceb> who are you using for the pcbs?
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[12:14] <Laurenceb> olimex?
[12:14] <edmoore> it's 4 layer, so no
[12:14] <edmoore> pcb train for the current one, gold phoenix for rev2
[12:14] <Laurenceb> I see
[12:15] <Laurenceb> yeah when I last looked olimex was a bit poor
[12:16] <Laurenceb> but pcb train was expensive :-/
[12:16] <Laurenceb> ah well guess with badgerboard its a small % of the cost
[12:16] <edmoore> it was pretty pricey actually
[12:17] <Laurenceb> you could try batchpcb, nice and cheap and quite good quality
[12:17] <edmoore> that's just an incredibly slow middle-man for gold phoenix
[12:18] <Laurenceb> yeah
[12:18] <edmoore> we went with pcb-train as we wanted the boards within 4 days. now for rev2 we can afford to wait a little longer
[12:18] <Laurenceb> are you using eagle?
[12:18] <edmoore> hence gold phoenix. I think fergus wants to do some cubs too.
[12:18] <edmoore> yep
[12:18] <Laurenceb> I've been playing with geda/pcb ect
[12:19] <edmoore> how are you finding it?
[12:19] <Laurenceb> it looks good but I havent had chance to design anything proper yet
[12:19] <Laurenceb> its very different, and steeper learning curve
[12:19] <Laurenceb> but if you want to edit parts ect I find it easier to make new stuff from existing footprints
[12:20] <Laurenceb> eagle is very annoying when it comes to anything not in a library
[12:20] <edmoore> agreed!
[12:21] <Laurenceb> I did manage to work out how to use several existing parts, pinching the footprint, symbols ect to create a new part in eagle
[12:21] <Laurenceb> but it was _horrible_
[12:22] <Laurenceb> 95% of the time its a waste of time to create a new footprint from scratch, as your component is just some new device in a standard package
[12:23] <Laurenceb> eagle doesnt seem to be made with that fact in mind
[12:23] <edmoore> it's do-able but I do it sufficiently infrequently that i get annoyed and having to re-learn it each time
[12:23] <edmoore> it could be a lot easier
[12:23] <Laurenceb> yeah
[12:24] <Laurenceb> have you started work on hobble yet?
[12:26] <edmoore> yes
[12:26] <edmoore> as of this week
[12:27] <Laurenceb> cool
[12:27] <Laurenceb> good luck
[12:27] <Laurenceb> are you using the badgerboard 2 ?
[12:27] <edmoore> yep
[12:28] <Laurenceb> guess that makes it a lot more doable
[12:28] <edmoore> indeed
[12:28] <Laurenceb> kalman filters ?
[12:29] Action: Laurenceb gets excited
[12:31] <edmoore> of course!
[12:31] <edmoore> right, lunch time
[12:31] <edmoore> ttyl
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[13:27] <rjharrison_> Laurenceb it's very easy to copy another device in eage
[13:27] <rjharrison_> eagle
[13:27] <rjharrison_> get the most recent version
[13:28] <rjharrison_> open up both libraries
[13:28] <rjharrison_> right click on the device you want to copy and say copy to library
[13:28] <rjharrison_> takes about 2 seconds :)
[13:34] <Laurenceb> no no no
[13:34] <Laurenceb> create a new device using existing library parts
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[13:40] <juxta_> turns out radiometrix make a 25mW version of the NTX2 which is legal where I live :D
[13:40] <RocketBoy> cool
[13:42] <juxta_> still need to find a suitable transciever though
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[13:43] <RocketBoy> so this will be for tracking HABs in Oz?
[13:44] <juxta_> yeah, we're planning to do a launch in december some time :)
[13:44] <juxta_> where abouts are you from, RocketBoy?
[13:45] <RocketBoy> England - Suffolk
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[13:47] <RocketBoy> I do most of my HABing in East Anglia (Cambridgeshire, Suffolk, Norfolk, Essex)
[13:47] <juxta_> I see :)
[13:47] <juxta_> which projects are yours?
[13:48] <RocketBoy> XABEN...
[13:50] <juxta_> RocketBoy: the Bang Goes the Theory launch?
[13:50] <RocketBoy> yep
[13:50] <juxta_> oh wow, nice work
[13:50] <gordonjcp> I must watch that again
[13:50] <juxta_> was that you in the video?
[13:50] <RocketBoy> yep
[13:51] <RocketBoy> the old git in the red coat
[13:51] <juxta_> haha.. I'm just looking again :)
[13:51] <juxta_> very cool!
[13:52] <juxta_> how did you track the payload?
[13:52] <RocketBoy> 434MHz Radiometrix RTTY
[13:53] <RocketBoy> For 434MHz modules (in the way that we use them) then most Ham Radio rigs with 70cm coverage and SSB will do.
[13:53] <RocketBoy> the usual stuff that we talk about here
[13:55] <juxta_> speaking of which, I've been having a bit more of a look around
[13:56] <juxta_> there's an ICOM 706 MK2G on ebay here - has anybody used one before?
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[13:57] <edmoore> yes
[13:57] <edmoore> lovely piece of kit, nice and sensitive
[13:58] <juxta_> excellent
[13:58] <edmoore> the car mounting kit may be a nice splurge too
[13:59] <juxta_> regarding sensitivity, how does one go about interpreting the various sensitivity specs quoted?
[14:00] <edmoore> with refernce to http://www.icomamerica.com/en/products/amateur/hf/706/specifications.aspx
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[14:00] <edmoore> the sensitive subscton of the receiver section, the metric of interest for ballooing as we do t currently is ssb/cw 10dB S/N, in the 440mhz band
[14:01] <edmoore> it has a value of 0.11 which isn't half bad
[14:01] <RocketBoy> I don't know of anything better
[14:02] <RocketBoy> athough other factors come into play - for HABing shere sensitivity is the thing to look at - and the smaller the uV value the better
[14:02] <edmoore> that's with the pre-amp on
[14:04] <gordonjcp> juxta_: the spec is for 12dB SINAD which in broad terms is the minimum intelligible signal level
[14:04] <juxta_> hmm
[14:05] <gordonjcp> if you hook an FM receiver up to a signal generator and feed it a modulated signal, and gradually reduce the carrier level then you'll hear it go from fully quieting to no signal at all
[14:05] <gordonjcp> so at about -80dBm you should have full quieting, at -90dBm there may be a wee bit of noise creeping in but nothing obtrusive and at -100dBm the signal will be noticeably noisy
[14:07] <juxta_> so - what does the 0.11uV refer to?
[14:07] <gordonjcp> now at some point between -100dBm and -110dBm you'll hear the noise takes on a "ploppy" character
[14:07] <gordonjcp> this is (near as dammit) 12dB SINAD which you take as being the limit of intelligibility
[14:08] <gordonjcp> 0.11uV is another way of expressing the signal level required to reach that point
[14:08] <gordonjcp> in practice it's not *that* important
[14:09] <juxta_> is it in reference to the minimum voltage induced in the receiver's antenna, or something like that?
[14:09] <RocketBoy> the 0.11uV figure is for SSB (10 dB S/N)
[14:09] <gordonjcp> juxta_: basically yes
[14:09] <gordonjcp> juxta_: in practice any modern transceiver will have much the same performance as any other modern transceiver
[14:09] <RocketBoy> the FM 12dB SINAD is 0.18uV
[14:09] <edmoore> i think it means a bit more in HABing than in the world normally. Running off my car bats with a very directional yagi plaugged in which is pointing at a bit of sky, vs plugged into the mains at a local repeater :)
[14:09] <edmoore> ]
[14:13] <gordonjcp> so about -122dBm, pretty average
[14:13] <RocketBoy> I don't really agree with gordon on this point - all "modern" receivers are not the same
[14:13] <RocketBoy> depends what you mean by modderen and reciver
[14:14] <gordonjcp> well
[14:14] <gordonjcp> anything with wideband receive is going to be a dead loss for *really* sensitive work
[14:14] <gordonjcp> especially with an rx preamp
[14:14] <RocketBoy> for eaxmple a scanner may have 0.5uV sensitivity and the IC-706 0.11uV
[14:14] <gordonjcp> yes, but scanners are inherently deaf as fuck
[14:14] <RocketBoy> thats 13dbs difference
[14:15] <gordonjcp> you've got the choice between having decent filters, a sensitive input and good intermod performance at the expense of size and weight
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> Or cost
[14:15] <gordonjcp> or, as you say, cost
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> And to some degree age of design
[14:15] <gordonjcp> show me a scanner that costs the same as a 706 and I'll show you a not-deaf scanner
[14:16] <RocketBoy> yep - in life you mostly only get what you pay for
[14:16] <gordonjcp> right
[14:16] <gordonjcp> a lot of it comes down to physical constraints
[14:17] <gordonjcp> you can't make a little tiny handheld radio with wideband receive *and* good filtering
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> cheaply
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> but, yes.
[14:18] <gordonjcp> your Alinco DJ-X3 just doesn't have the room for the chunky great helical filters that your proper radio has
[14:18] <gordonjcp> perhaps it's more accurate to say that there's not a great deal of difference in performance between radios of similar types
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Marketplace does that prettymuch.
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Unless it's for cellphones.
[14:19] <gordonjcp> my TH-F7E is really bad for intermod, but the conceptually similar TM-V700 is much better in that regard
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> 'yes, the antenna doesn't really work, but look at the apps!'
[14:19] <gordonjcp> much of the guts of the two radios is the same but the mobile rig has room for filters
[14:20] <gordonjcp> anyway
[14:21] <gordonjcp> my view - and one not shared by everyone - is that the book figure RX sensitivity is largely meaningless
[14:21] <gordonjcp> and you should concentrate on buying a radio that isn't a total ballache to use
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> It depends.
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> But - 0.11/0.5 isn't actually that big a difference.
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> Sure - it's 12dB.
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> But - a small antenna can fix that.
[14:22] <juxta_> speaking of antennas, what sort of gain is recommended for HAB tracking?
[14:23] <RocketBoy> somthing about 1m long IMO
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> As much as you need.
[14:23] <RocketBoy> particualrly for HABing mobile
[14:23] <edmoore> my new yagi constraint is that it fits across the parcel shelf in my boot
[14:24] <juxta_> haha
[14:24] <edmoore> the 9-el tonna we have doesn't quite do that
[14:24] <RocketBoy> but it is a nice antenna
[14:24] <gordonjcp> make it an 8-el
[14:24] <edmoore> tbh a whip on the car roof has proven to be plenty for our flights with 50baud and 10mW
[14:25] <gordonjcp> also
[14:25] <RocketBoy> (with a good receiver)
[14:25] <edmoore> (true)
[14:25] <gordonjcp> a three-element yagi can easily outperform a five-element yagi
[14:25] <juxta_> I was looking at yagi's, but most of them in oz are for 477mhz
[14:25] <gordonjcp> mostly because it's easier to keep the three-element yagi pointing in the right direction
[14:25] Action: RocketBoy tries not to take the bait
[14:26] <gordonjcp> juxta_: K5OE handi-tenna
[14:26] <edmoore> :p
[14:26] <gordonjcp> site is now down, but archive.org is your friend
[14:26] <edmoore> juxta_: one of the online calculators for DIY yagis could be right up your street - making one is not too hard
[14:26] <gordonjcp> yup
[14:27] <juxta_> edmoore: yeah, I'd thought about making one up also
[14:27] <gordonjcp> WA5VJB "Cheap Yagi" - I made two of those, one for 2m and one for 70cm
[14:27] <gordonjcp> used them on LEO FM sats
[14:27] <edmoore> i was going to make one of those handi-tennas. maybe I actually will right now
[14:27] <gordonjcp> works brilliantly
[14:27] <edmoore> yeah - snap
[14:27] <RocketBoy> If my calculations are correct 0.11uV is -126.1dBm so for 10dB S?n that would put the noise floor at -136 dBm
[14:27] <gordonjcp> edmoore: it helps if you make a jig for bending the driven element
[14:27] <RocketBoy> S/N
[14:27] <edmoore> what's the radius?
[14:28] <gordonjcp> for the DE?
[14:28] <gordonjcp> I used about 16mm
[14:29] <RocketBoy> But (25deg C) thermal noise for 2.4KHz is -140dBm
[14:29] <edmoore> i also wanted it for (as you say) something a bit more directional for balloons, but that I can still just point once and leave
[14:29] <RocketBoy> so there is 4dBs to be had somewhere
[14:30] <gordonjcp> edmoore: it's narrow enough to be useful but still easy to aim at satellites
[14:30] <edmoore> there was a massive pile-up on ao-51 on saturday afternoon. I guess because it's saturday afternoon
[14:31] <gordonjcp> ye
[14:31] <gordonjcp> rude as hell, that
[14:32] <edmoore> i will try and work you one day, perhaps
[14:32] <juxta_> thanks for the input all, I'm off for now :)
[14:35] <gordonjcp> edmoore: well now
[14:35] <gordonjcp> easiest way to do that would be to pick a good high pass at about 3am
[14:35] <gordonjcp> no other bugger about
[14:35] <Laurenceb> I think the receiving software can help a bit
[14:36] <Laurenceb> I'm (slowly) writing a c RTTY decoder
[14:36] <SpeedEvil> Somewhat.
[14:36] <Laurenceb> that should avoid some of the issues with fldigi
[14:36] <SpeedEvil> But not much
[14:36] <Laurenceb> and allow FEC and better signal tracking ect
[14:37] <SpeedEvil> the rtty is fundamentally dual-tone - which helps
[14:37] <edmoore> a binary telem struct with decent FEC would probably knock all our our socks off compared to the performance we're used to
[14:37] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[14:37] <SpeedEvil> Or even an ascii one with a FEC
[14:37] <Laurenceb> fldigi sucks as it misses characters
[14:37] <SpeedEvil> fldigi screws that by throwing away stuff with invalid framing
[14:37] <edmoore> but then again, unless we get a step change in channel bandwidth, there's not much more to be done
[14:37] <Laurenceb> I'm designing it around a callsign as a packet header
[14:37] <Laurenceb> so you can search for the callsign to initialise the loops
[14:38] <Laurenceb> ideally youd transmit with 100% duty cycle
[14:38] <SpeedEvil> I mean - even - for example - a 50 byte ascii record with 30 bytes of FEC on the end would be an order of magnitude better or more.
[14:38] <Laurenceb> anyway... so far I have my soundcard talking nicely to my code, so thats a start
[14:38] <SpeedEvil> Maybe two orders.
[14:39] <edmoore> digital sstv is the next cool thing, I reckon ;)
[14:39] <Laurenceb> I have some reed solomon and viterbi c code
[14:39] <Laurenceb> but I want to try something a bit nicer
[14:39] <edmoore> a pair of longish yagis on the downlink (or maybe a dish!) and we could start cooking
[14:39] <Laurenceb> using discriminator weighting would be nice for a start
[14:39] <Laurenceb> you should be able to get 1Kbps at least
[14:40] <Laurenceb> over 100Km +
[14:40] <SpeedEvil> And then you get to using >2 tones
[14:40] <Laurenceb> that doesnt help
[14:40] <SpeedEvil> which gives you anotehr massive boost
[14:40] <Laurenceb> just use wider spacing and higher baud rate
[14:40] <SpeedEvil> I think it does - but it adds a whole layer of complexity - as you then need to do FEC
[14:41] Action: SpeedEvil plays wackamole.
[14:41] <SpeedEvil> With real moles.
[14:41] <SpeedEvil> Odd.
[14:41] <SpeedEvil> The scratching noises - I may have gone on about really noisy mice in the past day or two.
[14:42] <SpeedEvil> found a teeny mole I think on the mousetrap.
[14:43] <Laurenceb> thats cruel :-/
[14:44] <SpeedEvil> yeah - well - I haven't been able to sleep for a couple of nights because of it.
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[14:52] <edmoore> rjharrison: any sign of the pcbs?
[14:52] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: under your floor?
[14:53] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: in walls
[14:53] <Laurenceb> wow
[14:53] <Laurenceb> dry lined ones
[14:54] <Laurenceb> guess thats a potential problem with dry lining
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> The walls are basically plasterboard - 10cm of air - stone wall
[14:54] <Laurenceb> not one for us as theres a solid concrete floor
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> with a wooden framework holding the plasterboard on
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> yeah - there are _no_ foundations here.
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> just sand
[14:55] <Laurenceb> guess they dug through the floor
[14:55] <Laurenceb> building regs here took fireproofing very seriously
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> I don't think there actually were any regs here.
[14:57] <Laurenceb> your supposed to use fireproof blow foam to form firebreaks
[14:57] <Laurenceb> so the flames cant travel behind the plasterboard and spread between rooms/floors
[14:58] <Laurenceb> you can also use it around steelwork/alternatively use wooden cladding
[14:59] <SpeedEvil> I should probably do something like that.
[14:59] <SpeedEvil> But, I'm just minimising fire risk
[15:00] <Laurenceb> have you had building control round?
[15:00] <SpeedEvil> No need.
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> I'm improving the insulation in all areas - and not changing any externals
[15:01] <Laurenceb> nope
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> AIUI I don't need any building control.
[15:01] <Laurenceb> your "renewing thermal elements"
[15:01] <Laurenceb> building control have to check your work
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> Even if there are no thermal elements existing?
[15:02] <Laurenceb> and it has to meet the regulations as they apply when the work commences
[15:02] <Laurenceb> yes, especially in that case
[15:02] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure if it differs in scotland - I'm fairly sure I looked into it and found it wasn't an issue
[15:02] <Laurenceb> so technically you have to get u values of 0.2 or whatever it is now
[15:03] <Laurenceb> yeah it may differ
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> That's 0.2W/m^2?
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> /k
[15:04] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> I think I'm probably going to hit 0.3
[15:05] <Laurenceb> that may be ok
[15:05] <Laurenceb> if youve been working on it for a while
[15:05] <Laurenceb> that was probably the value when you started
[15:05] <Laurenceb> they've reduced it a lot in the past 2 years
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> It commenced in 1985, when I put some polystyrene behind a radiator.
[15:06] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:06] <Laurenceb> yeah for this sort of work its easy to fiddle it
[15:06] <Laurenceb> for big projects they look at when the planning application was approved
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> No planning.
[15:07] <Laurenceb> thats my point
[15:08] <Laurenceb> we had big problems as there was derelict extension from the 1980s on the back, and it has insulated cavity wall but even with the best insulation it wasnt thick enough
[15:09] <Laurenceb> so it had to have extra insulation backed plasterboard on the inside and ended up stupidly thick
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> Practically - if I don't sell it - is there an issue?
[15:09] <Laurenceb> nope
[15:10] <Laurenceb> people break regs all the time
[15:10] <Laurenceb> technically they could order you to undo all the work if they found out, but that would be ridiculous
[15:12] <Laurenceb> with this sort of thing they realise its doing a lot of good anyway, and only resort to creating a scene with large housebuilders/government funded grant work ect
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> Practically - I'm taking care to avoid condensation - and insulating it to a pretty decent standard to reduce bills.
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[15:12] <SpeedEvil> Grants are fucking annoying.
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> There are no grants at all for DIY.
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> As far as I can tell.
[15:13] <Laurenceb> we funded most of the work with grants
[15:13] <Laurenceb> it depends
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> As I understand it there are no grants for thermal insulation work when DIYing.
[15:13] <Laurenceb> in the case of solid walls being improved, its hard unless its part of a larger project
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> And the schemes available are useless.
[15:14] <Laurenceb> a lot of them are yes
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> As I don't have cavities, and hte loft is already done
[15:14] <Laurenceb> the other thing is with grant work you do have to follow building regs very well
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[15:15] <Laurenceb> and they can be annyoing, the building inspect here wasnt happy with the steel framing used for some of the internal walls/roof/floor support
[15:15] <Laurenceb> simply as it was an unconvensional solution
[15:15] <SpeedEvil> 'Ooooh - I've never seen that before - rip it out' ?
[15:16] <Laurenceb> in the end he had to pass it as there was nothing wrong and I got a chartered engineer to check the designs
[15:16] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:17] <Laurenceb> also the foundations had to be a set depth despite the fact we were hacking into solid bedrock
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> The slavish adherance to regulations that don't apply is _evil_.
[15:19] <Laurenceb> windows are also a pain, your supposed to have FENSA round
[15:19] <russss> most of the building regs are actually quite sensible
[15:19] <russss> albeit annoying
[15:19] <Laurenceb> that never happened which is just as well as I think there were some deviations from regs
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> If I happen to have a spare billion anytime soon, I'm sponsoring a project to do buildings right.
[15:19] <Laurenceb> yeah that would be very worthwile
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> The building regs are sensible - applied in their intended context
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> For example - work out a 'spirit of the regs' document
[15:20] <Laurenceb> demonstration projects to show how to properly modernise various types of housing
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> and then a x-prize like contest that sticks to the sane parts, and aims for faster/better/cheaper
[15:20] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:21] <russss> it does stagger me how much manual labour goes on still
[15:21] <russss> you could totally automate that stuff
[15:21] <russss> </sysadmin>
[15:21] <Laurenceb> I was taking to some of the heating engineers here (Warwick uni) they have a very nice CHP system
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> And much of it, yes.
[15:21] <Laurenceb> converted old deisel generators to run on natural gas
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> Neat.
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> If you do that right, you can put a shaft-driven heat-pump in for extra goodness.
[15:22] <Laurenceb> then cooling water and exhaust heat exchanges to run central heating for the buildings and neighbourhood
[15:22] <Laurenceb> its integrated into the air con systems
[15:22] <Laurenceb> i.e. HVAC
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> CHP is another huge thing that just 'isn't done'.
[15:23] <Laurenceb> but the heating uses water to air heat exchanges on the roof
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> As the free market rules - and the housebuilders are typically making 10 houses in an area.
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> Which doens't make sense for CHP
[15:23] <Laurenceb> yeah they have 35% conversion efficiency gas to electric
[15:24] <Laurenceb> in soviet russia....
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> At the moment I'm looking at air-source heatpump.
[15:24] <Laurenceb> CHP heats you
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> Which is actually cheaper than gas - in some of the analysis.
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> As the first rate of gas is really quite high
[15:26] <Laurenceb> http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5924
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> I diddn't realise it was tat high.
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> Certainly not in hte UK.
[15:27] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:28] <Laurenceb> Denmark is the global leader, with CHP meeting 52 percent of its electricity needs
[15:29] <Laurenceb> they must have pretty low emissions, as they also have loads of wind power 20% IIRC
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[16:28] Nick change: SAIDias -> KD0JCV
[16:50] Action: SpeedEvil commits environmental naughtiness.
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> (painting shed with used engine oil).
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> No, it's not good practice - however it's been done several times before - not by me.
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> mouser.com now offering free shipping to the UK on orders over 50 quid, as well as digikey
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[17:03] <SpeedEvil> Checking the regs - I don't require a building warrant for additional insulation apparantly.
[17:08] <russss> SpeedEvil: that's cool (the free shipping
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[17:41] <Laurenceb> sup
[17:41] <Laurenceb> discovery channel were here :P
[17:43] <Laurenceb> their sound technician was hot
[17:45] <Laurenceb> unfortunately they didnt talk to me, I was just lurking in the background
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[17:48] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> :(
[17:50] <Laurenceb> == :|
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[19:12] <sbasuita> Going to the monthly radio club meeting to try and find a yagi soon
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[19:21] Nick change: bittwist -> RageMajesty
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[19:33] <gordonjcp> sbasuita: make one
[19:35] <sbasuita> gordonjcp, we attempted that and it failed miserably
[19:35] <sbasuita> that doesn't mean we couldn't make one properly
[19:36] <sbasuita> its just that people don't want to
[19:36] <sbasuita> *shrug*
[19:39] Action: Laurenceb made a moxon ant
[19:40] <Laurenceb> that fits into an A4 file
[19:40] <Laurenceb> so I can use it for storing lecture notes ect :D
[19:44] <gordonjcp> sbasuita: it's not exactly hard
[19:44] <gordonjcp> sbasuita: K5OÂE handi-tenna
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[20:03] Nick change: RageMajesty -> bittwist
[20:13] <Laurenceb> good evening your FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUu
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[20:17] <SpikeUK_> Evening all!
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[20:19] <Jon_Apex> evening]
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[20:29] <SpikeUK_> I'm looking to have some Moo mini cards printed to promote HAB in the UK. I've got six lines of text, with about 40 characters per line. Apart from a link to irc://freenode/highaltitude can anyone suggest any other URLs etc to list?
[20:35] <RocketBoy> ukhas wiki
[20:37] <Laurenceb> Moo?
[20:37] <RocketBoy> http://uk.moo.com/en/products/minicards.php?gclid=COW6v8SkvZ0CFUYA4wod6RayiA
[20:37] <Randomskk> they're really nice.
[20:38] <SpikeUK_> RocketBoy Yup! That's on the list. My other ideas are irc://freenode/highaltitude, http://spacenear.us/tracker/ , and http://www.flickr.com/groups/highaltitude/ . Anything else?
[20:43] <edmoore> hi SpikeUK_
[20:43] <edmoore> just sat down
[20:43] <SpikeUK_> edmoore Evening!
[20:43] <edmoore> those cards look good - I may get some!
[20:44] <SpikeUK_> I've already got some for myself, but wanted some HAB ones to hand out in two weeks time
[20:45] <edmoore> those links look good
[20:45] <SpikeUK_> I've got one more line to fill, any ideas?
[20:46] <edmoore> how about:
[20:46] <edmoore> see pics: flickr.com/groups/highaltitude
[20:46] <edmoore> talk shop: irc.freenode.net/highaltitude
[20:46] <edmoore> learn stuff: ukhas.org
[20:46] <edmoore> spend money: sparkfun.com
[20:47] <SpikeUK_> Oooo. That's good! I'll add coolcomponents.co.uk too then
[20:48] <Laurenceb> heh
[20:48] <Laurenceb> ok challenge to eeveryone, integrate 1/(x^4+x^3+4x^2+x+3) dx
[20:48] <Randomskk> www.wolframalpha.com
[20:48] <Laurenceb> heh
[20:48] <Laurenceb> showing working
[20:49] <Randomskk> Jon_Apex: rubber band http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=integrate+1%2F(x^4%2Bx^3%2B4x^2%2Bx%2B3)+dx
[20:49] <Randomskk> not sure about that first bit.
[20:49] <Randomskk> then click "Show Steps"
[20:49] <Randomskk> sorry Jon_Apex, must have hit up before pasting.
[20:49] <Randomskk> anyway yea. it shows working and explains what it does in each step
[20:50] <Laurenceb> oh nice
[20:50] <russss> hah wow
[20:50] <russss> I wish I had wolfram alpha when I did maths.
[20:50] <Laurenceb> oh $%£
[20:51] <Laurenceb> use partial fractions
[20:51] <Randomskk> it gives you pretty much everything. graphs, alternate forms, expansions, etc
[20:51] <Randomskk> that's a horrible integration though
[20:52] <Laurenceb> yeah I have 3 pages of working going nowhere
[20:52] <Laurenceb> I didnt realise wolfram could show working
[20:53] <Laurenceb> ah well I was about to attempt partial fractions
[20:53] <Laurenceb> woulkd have got there in the end
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[20:58] <jcoxon> evening all
[20:58] <jcoxon> wow 36
[20:58] <SpikeUK_> jcoxon Hi!
[20:58] <jcoxon> , only 1 bot and 1 repeat
[20:58] <edmoore> peeps > altitude record in km
[20:58] <jcoxon> now that is impressive
[20:58] <jcoxon> hey SpikeUK_ and edmoore
[20:59] <edmoore> although soon to be 35 as i already have a mountain of work
[20:59] <Randomskk> edmoore: any idea how long the cusf thing tomorrow will be?
[20:59] <jcoxon> hows tricks edmoore?
[21:00] <Randomskk> cuws thing is two hours after cusf :P
[21:00] <edmoore> the talk will be probs only 30 mins if that
[21:00] <edmoore> then chat if you want in the lab, + drinks
[21:00] <Randomskk> cool, okay. should be fine then
[21:00] <edmoore> but free to go, essentially
[21:00] <jcoxon> oh the trans-a attempt tomorrow has been postponed
[21:00] <edmoore> wine society or wireless society?
[21:00] <Randomskk> wireless :P
[21:00] <edmoore> jcoxon: not bad. starting on hobble
[21:01] <jcoxon> edmoore, cool
[21:01] <edmoore> waiting for someone at srcf to pull their finger out and give me a mysql account
[21:01] <edmoore> i'm not sure if i'll make it to the wireless meet tomorrow
[21:01] <jcoxon> haha the joys of srcf
[21:01] <edmoore> i needs me a server
[21:01] Action: Randomskk plugs slicehost.com
[21:02] <edmoore> well, i just need them to answer my email actually
[21:02] <Randomskk> on the downside it's not actually free or hosted at cambridge, so...
[21:02] <edmoore> they're nerds, surely one of them has been on the internet this afternoon
[21:03] <edmoore> gordonjcp: got the bits together for my handi-tenna
[21:03] <jcoxon> haha you'd expect so
[21:03] <edmoore> may try and make it after lunch tomorrow
[21:03] <edmoore> Randomskk: how have you found week 1?
[21:03] <jcoxon> edmoore, have i missed a cusf launch
[21:03] <jcoxon> http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:launch_list
[21:04] <edmoore> jcoxon: yep
[21:04] <edmoore> just testing uplink on a suicide mission/ range check
[21:04] <edmoore> it works. uplink is good for about 180km range
[21:05] <jcoxon> so only one launch while i was away?
[21:05] <jcoxon> i saw the launch on your wiki - sounded great
[21:05] <edmoore> lots of ground testing and tethered stuff for us, no other flights
[21:05] <SpikeUK_> Ideas for Moo cards High-Altitude Balloon information
[21:05] <SpikeUK_> Talk shop: irc://freenode/highaltitude
[21:05] <SpikeUK_> Learn stuff: http://ukhas.org.uk/start
[21:05] <SpikeUK_> See pics: http://www.flickr.com/groups/highaltitude/
[21:05] <SpikeUK_> Spend money: http://www.sparkfun.com/
[21:05] <edmoore> oh, well actually we let a badgercub go one night in a jiffy bag but it died pretty early
[21:05] <Randomskk> edmoore: kinda hectic
[21:05] <Randomskk> getting better I guess
[21:06] <jcoxon> SpikeUK_, how about a short set of numbers
[21:06] <edmoore> the variety of activity dies down and the work builds up.
[21:06] <Randomskk> yea.
[21:06] <jcoxon> such as number of flights, max alt, longest flight etc
[21:06] <Randomskk> getting to be less and less random one-offs and more and more regular work/supervisions/society things
[21:06] <Randomskk> thank god the engineering health and safety lecture is over
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[21:08] <edmoore> CUSF's motto is Safety Second
[21:08] <jcoxon> haha
[21:08] <SpikeUK_> jcoxon - good idea. Want to try and guide peeps here and to the UKHAS wiki, could leave out sparkfun and the flicker link?
[21:09] <jcoxon> the flickr link is quite a good idea
[21:09] <jcoxon> for some quick pictures
[21:09] <jcoxon> perhaps not the sparkfun
[21:09] <jcoxon> radiometrix sent me the wrong module :-(
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[21:10] <edmoore> jcoxon: what is your current plan for launches?
[21:10] <SpikeUK_> What should you have, what one have you got?
[21:11] <jcoxon> they sent me an nxr2 instead of a ntx2
[21:11] <jcoxon> nrx2*
[21:11] <jcoxon> edmoore, i've reconstructed the atlas flight computer
[21:11] <jcoxon> and am now working on my secondary avr which will do the ballast and sensor stuff
[21:12] <jcoxon> communicating between the 2 with i2c
[21:12] <edmoore> cool
[21:12] <jcoxon> plan to do alot on saturday as have the day free
[21:12] <jcoxon> and something ready in 2-3 weeks time
[21:12] <jcoxon> want to do another floater with a ballast test
[21:13] <jcoxon> - very aware that trans-a season is open...
[21:13] <edmoore> :)
[21:13] <edmoore> will be getting myself into the shack when it starts
[21:13] <jcoxon> :-)
[21:14] <jcoxon> well i hope to get atlantic halo up eventually
[21:15] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: are you working on halo?
[21:15] <Laurenceb> I'd be willing to get it working
[21:17] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, i'm working on ballasthalo - hoping to get a ballast system working for atlantic halo
[21:17] <Laurenceb> ok cool
[21:17] <jcoxon> RocketBoy is working on the radio right now
[21:17] <Laurenceb> obviously must use my ballast sensor :P
[21:17] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, i've got that here
[21:17] <Laurenceb> cool
[21:17] <Laurenceb> :D
[21:17] <jcoxon> still working on a rig to test a tank
[21:18] <jcoxon> ive seen something else that might work as well
[21:18] <jcoxon> one sec i'll find a link
[21:19] <SpikeUK_> Night all!
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[21:19] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9072
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[21:20] Nick change: RageMajesty -> bittwist
[21:21] <Laurenceb> oh wow nice
[21:21] <Laurenceb> ok use that then :P
[21:21] <Laurenceb> you'll need a float
[21:22] <jcoxon> i've ordered one so shall see
[21:22] <jcoxon> do you think its a good choice?
[21:23] <Laurenceb> yeah
[21:23] <Laurenceb> but who knows, it might jam or something
[21:23] <Laurenceb> best to test both
[21:23] <jcoxon> i've recently been going back and forth about solid vs liquid
[21:24] <jcoxon> alot because liquid has a habit of dissolving glue
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[21:26] <edmoore> just pick your liquid right :)
[21:26] <SpeedEvil> vodka
[21:27] <jcoxon> 100 proof vodka freezes at -40
[21:29] <jcoxon> will get something properly rigged on sat and post pics
[21:29] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, is your sensor i2c?
[21:29] <Laurenceb> yes
[21:29] <Laurenceb> these a note inside with instructions
[21:29] <gordonjcp> edmoore: cool
[21:30] <Laurenceb> please dont fry it
[21:30] <gordonjcp> edmoore: if need be I can bend up some driven elements and pop them in the post
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[21:30] <edmoore> gordonjcp: I'll give it a whirl myself and see what Mr. SWR meter has to say about it
[21:31] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, what i'll do if you don't mind is fly both sensors so we can compare their performance
[21:31] <Laurenceb> ok yeah
[21:31] <jcoxon> i've got i2c working so shouldn't be difficult to set up
[21:31] <Laurenceb> theres code on the wiki
[21:33] <Laurenceb> http://pastebin.com/m142a2458
[21:33] <jcoxon> cool
[21:33] <Laurenceb> and there
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[21:35] <jcoxon> welcome back netspliters
[21:35] <russss> got my USRP running, fan in that thing is quite loud :)
[21:35] <jcoxon> haha
[21:36] <russss> I should have bought a daughterboard to pick up the balloons
[21:36] <russss> the customs handling surcharge is expensive :/
[21:37] <Laurenceb> gtg, cya
[21:38] <russss> also gnu radio takes ages to compile
[21:38] <Laurenceb> you have a gnu radio?
[21:38] <russss> yep
[21:38] <Laurenceb> USRP whatsit?
[21:38] <gordonjcp> edmoore: you need to be *reasonably* accurate, but fortunately folded dipoles are pretty broadband
[21:38] <russss> plan is to sell it to the hackspace when we have enough money to buy it off me.
[21:38] <Laurenceb> nice
[21:38] <russss> but I want to play around with receiving plane transponders and other fun stuff
[21:39] <edmoore> gordonjcp: will be fun to experiment with. I will make a jib as you advised
[21:39] <edmoore> russss: that's exciting
[21:39] <jcoxon> russss, it doesn't hear 434?
[21:39] <edmoore> GNuradio looks pretty cool
[21:39] <russss> I don't have the daughterboard for that range
[21:40] <jcoxon> thats a shame, does it do 868?
[21:40] <Laurenceb> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8307804.stm
[21:40] <Laurenceb> what the...
[21:40] <russss> the one I bought is 800MHz-2.4GHz
[21:40] <russss> the 50MHz-870MHz receiver is only $100, so I clearly should have bought that as well
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> stick a diode on the 433MHz antenna, and it should work fine
[21:41] <jcoxon> russss, well there are plans for use of the 868mhz band
[21:41] <jcoxon> in the future
[21:41] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_monopole#.22Monopoles.22_in_condensed-matter_systems
[21:41] Action: Laurenceb calls BS
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> Show me the data.
[21:43] <Laurenceb> oh well I've gtg, cya
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[21:43] <SpeedEvil> Or rather more relevantly - show me the one that can lift a car
[21:44] <edmoore> right, time to head back out. turned out to be a longer stop than anticipated. see you l8s
[21:44] Nick change: edmoore -> edmoore|away
[21:45] <jcoxon> cya
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[21:53] <jcoxon> at some point guys we are going to need to discuss the flight plains for atlantichalo
[22:02] <jcoxon> plans*
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[22:14] <sbasuita> People have massive 70cms, but no handhelds :(
[22:14] <sbasuita> But some guy suggested a helical antenna
[22:14] <sbasuita> which is interesting
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[22:31] <Sparky68> hi all
[22:43] <edmoore|away> hi Sparky68
[22:43] Nick change: edmoore|away -> edmoore
[22:43] <Sparky68> hey
[22:45] <Sparky68> any launches over the next few weeks? I'd like to try out my newly acquired FT-790R.
[22:45] <Sparky68> :D
[22:45] <edmoore> very likely
[22:46] <sbasuita> Any comments on a helical antenna for ground receiving? Apparently it stops the signal from fading in and out as the balloon rotates.
[22:47] <edmoore> not really
[22:47] <sbasuita> ?
[22:47] <Jon_Apex> quadrifilar helicoidals work fine
[22:47] <Jon_Apex> used one on the tracking vehicle for Apex I
[22:47] <edmoore> the balloon's antenna, if you fly an antenna like we use (quarter wave with ground plane, bazooka dipole or whatever) is vertically polarised
[22:48] <edmoore> so the balloon may rotate around yaw, but that doesn't affect the polarisation of the antenna
[22:48] <sbasuita> Ah right
[22:48] <edmoore> if you used something different on the balloon, then sure
[22:49] <sbasuita> Might just build a moxon
[22:49] <edmoore> be aware of the radiotion pattern in elevation
[22:49] <sbasuita> Probably will, actually
[22:49] <edmoore> there are a lot of nulls
[22:49] <sbasuita> sorry?
[22:49] <edmoore> lots of points with weak reception
[22:52] <edmoore> http://www.moxonantennaproject.com/sm5jab/sm5jab_2.htm
[22:52] <edmoore> take a look at the radiation pattern in elevation
[22:53] <edmoore> may be better off with a handi-tenna. gordonjcp has built one, I am going to (try to) tomorrow over lunch
[22:53] <sbasuita> Ok, I'll do that then
[22:53] <sbasuita> What are you using for the elements?
[22:54] <edmoore> some old tube lying around
[22:54] <edmoore> i think homebase + the change in your pocket could sort you out
[22:54] <sbasuita> So the diameter isn't that important?
[22:54] <edmoore> it's small relative to the wavelength
[22:55] <edmoore> assuming it actually is (i'm using ~3mm)
[22:55] <sbasuita> Same stuff for the driven and parasitic?
[22:55] <edmoore> tis my intention
[22:56] <sbasuita> Do you have to bend the driven element?
[22:56] <sbasuita> (into a loop)
[22:56] <sbasuita> or can you have it straight?
[22:56] <edmoore> yep
[22:56] <edmoore> yep to bending
[22:56] <edmoore> if you want the fedd-point impedance to be correct
[22:56] <sbasuita> Ok
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[22:56] <edmoore> feed-point*
[22:57] <edmoore> http://web.archive.org/web/20050204095036/members.aol.com/k5oejerry/handi-tenna.htm
[22:57] <sbasuita> Actually, I just pulled up the archive.org url of that ; )
[22:57] <edmoore> i saw homebase, a coat-hanger will do too :)
[22:57] <edmoore> say*
[22:58] <sbasuita> cool
[22:58] <sbasuita> Pipe is a bit of a pain though for the boom...
[22:58] <sbasuita> in terms of drilling holes
[22:58] <edmoore> got a drill-press?
[22:59] <sbasuita> No idea what that is; probably not.
[22:59] <sbasuita> Actually, google images says my school workshop has a few ;)
[23:00] <gordonjcp> edmoore: if you bend the driven element out of ally tubing you'll need to heat it
[23:00] <gordonjcp> 22:53 < edmoore> may be better off with a handi-tenna. gordonjcp has built one
[23:00] <gordonjcp> no
[23:00] <gordonjcp> gordonjcp has *not* built one, gordonjcp has built about a dozen
[23:00] <gordonjcp> and now I can do it right nearly every time ;-)
[23:01] <sbasuita> hehe
[23:01] <sbasuita> gordonjcp, any top tips?
[23:01] <gordonjcp> measure twice, cut once
[23:01] <gordonjcp> that's just in general
[23:01] <Sparky68> don't run with scissors
[23:01] <gordonjcp> it's also allegorical
[23:01] <sbasuita> Sparky68, ;P
[23:01] <sbasuita> So coat hangers for all the elements will be fine?
[23:03] <gordonjcp> yeah
[23:03] <gordonjcp> hard to solder
[23:03] <gordonjcp> brazing rod is good too
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[23:07] <edmoore> right, g'night all
[23:07] <sbasuita> night edmoore
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[00:00] --- Thu Oct 15 2009