highaltitude.log.20091012

[00:03] <natrium42> hello mr arduinson
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[00:29] <Laurenceb> ah nioce the wind overlay is working on the cu spaceflight predictor
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[11:01] <EI5GTB> morning
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[12:00] <Laurenceb> hi
[12:13] <SpeedEvil> hi
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[15:00] <edmoore> greetings everyone
[15:00] <SpeedEvil> greetings.
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> Did I mention http://www.cis.rit.edu/htbooks/mri/index.html here? Introduction to MRI. Rather off-topic - but I found it interesting.
[15:08] <Laurenceb> nice
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[15:08] <Laurenceb> I was thinking about building an earth field NMR device
[15:09] <Laurenceb> and investigating my idea for culinary NMR
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> You can measure temperature using NMR
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> I'm currently trying to understand spin.
[15:10] <Laurenceb> temperature? hadnt come across that
[15:10] <Laurenceb> what it effects the line widths or something?
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> IIRC it sets the base state of the spin population
[15:11] <Laurenceb> I was thinking a little device of some sort for use in the kitchen - maybe a module that can be built into devices
[15:11] <Laurenceb> yeah sure
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> What application?
[15:11] <Laurenceb> ok guess you could measure temperature like that
[15:12] <Laurenceb> my first idea was an egg cooker
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> It's actually a clinical field
[15:12] <Laurenceb> based of an idea I saw of dragons den (dont laugh)
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> You do ultrasound ablation of tissue, and measure the temperature of the affected area live
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> to insure it's killed
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> And to ensure minimal collateral damage
[15:13] <Laurenceb> someone had a small clamshell device for cooking eggs
[15:14] <Laurenceb> egg goes in, there heater elements and a sort of flexible rubber holder around the egg to ensure the heat is conducted well
[15:14] <Laurenceb> you could use NMR to check the cooking progress
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> Or microwave thermometry.
[15:15] <Laurenceb> NMR will tell you how solid the yolk is
[15:15] <Laurenceb> very accurately
[15:15] <SpeedEvil> The viscosity effect
[15:15] <SpeedEvil> whatever it's called
[15:15] <Laurenceb> the T_2 coupling changes
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> with viscosity - amongst other things
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[15:16] <SpeedEvil> I've been wondering if there is some way to use spread-spectrum
[15:19] <Laurenceb> my idea was to use free induction decay
[15:19] <Laurenceb> but it would be vulnerable to noise
[15:20] <Laurenceb> I dont quite understand the polarization step in FID
[15:22] <Laurenceb> also the way explanations tend to mix QM and classical approximations is annoying
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> I found the above book good.
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> Are you contemplating an imager, or just single pixel?
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[15:23] <Laurenceb> just "single pixel" ie NMR
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> I want to do an imager.
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> Gradient coils, and lots of fourier.
[15:25] <Laurenceb> I guess the classical explanations are just a case of the virial theorem
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> ?
[15:25] <Laurenceb> the expectation value behaves classically
[15:26] <Laurenceb> so if you have a huge ensamble of spins, classical models of the same potential energy scituation can be applied
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> And if QM isn't really needed for an explanation...
[15:28] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:32] <Laurenceb> if you add a gradient coil and take a FFT of the FID you can build up voxels
[15:32] <Laurenceb> should be possible with a laptop sound card
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> gradient coils?
[15:33] <gordonjcp> isn't the tricky bit going to be the really massive magnet?
[15:33] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> apply gradient on X, excite, apply gradient on Y, wait, readout
[15:33] <Laurenceb> you can use earth fiel
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> How narrow is the resonance?
[15:34] <Laurenceb> earth field NMR
[15:34] <Laurenceb> wikipedia has a list of relaxation times
[15:34] <Laurenceb> that gives you the linewidth
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> Doh.
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> Of course it does.
[15:34] <Laurenceb> <1Hz width for most stuff
[15:34] <Laurenceb> :P
[15:35] <Laurenceb> so youd need gradient coils, readout coil and maybe sperate polarization and excitation coils
[15:35] <Laurenceb> but you should be able to combine some of those functions
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> As a very silly example - you should be able to do a mechanical scanner for one gradient axes
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> just push the object through a permenant field
[15:37] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:37] <Laurenceb> I wanted to try that with a capacitive tomography scanner
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> I think you can also - if you utterly don't care about scan times and have low res - skip the fourier step totally
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Simply do lots of intersecting planes, and solve.
[15:38] <Laurenceb> thats silly
[15:39] <Laurenceb> gradient coils is easy
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> Which helps a bit with signal processing, but is probably not usually a good trade.
[15:39] <Laurenceb> earth field will work with a soundcard
[15:39] <Laurenceb> so pretty easy
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> It's what - 3KHz?
[15:39] <Laurenceb> but you may need a decent sound card with low jitter
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> The SNR rises as you increase the field basically?
[15:40] <Laurenceb> 2KHz
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> As each spin has more energy?
[15:40] <Laurenceb> yeah I think so
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> I wonder what you can do with relatively cheap largish magnets.
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> permenant.
[15:42] <Laurenceb> hard getting a homogeneous field
[15:42] <Laurenceb> earth field is good for tht
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> Even maxwell coils are pretty good
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> If you only use the middle
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> I don't quite understand why field linearity is vital - other than making the maths tractable.
[15:45] <Laurenceb> thats the only reason
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> If you have instead of planes - spherical sections forex
[15:46] <Laurenceb> its tricky as nothing is ideal
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> Yeah
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> Also - what happens if you excite the spins at .05T - say - and then drop the field to .01T
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[15:47] <Laurenceb> AIUI the frequency will change
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> I suppose the energy just comes out over a 5 times longer period at 10MHz, not 50, say.
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> Assumign that the total energy emitted per spin is the same a energy that went out, I don't see an alternative
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> hmm - I don't think that works.
[15:50] Action: SpeedEvil is confused.
[15:52] <Laurenceb> the decay time is the same
[15:52] <Laurenceb> as you change the field
[15:53] <SpeedEvil> It takes extra energy to demagnetise?
[15:55] <Laurenceb> huh
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> I'm assuming that the energy needed to polarise a spin is proportional to field
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> On reflection, that can't be the case
[15:56] <Laurenceb> energy comes out as it depolarizes
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> The energy needed to polarise is invariant with B then.
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> Sigh.
[15:57] <Laurenceb> no
[15:58] <Laurenceb> conservation of energy
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> If the exciting photons are 3MHz - and the emitted photons are 3Khz - if B has dropped to .1% - do you get 1000 photons out I was implying
[15:58] <Laurenceb> the thing I dont quite understand is the polarization step in FID
[15:59] <Laurenceb> no
[15:59] <Laurenceb> the energy difference is in changing the B field
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> oh.
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> This is the reason most stuff is magnetic - diamagnetic/... in some form, isn't it.
[16:00] <Laurenceb> weakly - e.g. water
[16:01] <SpeedEvil> I need to crack my physics book and read the bits I diddn't get to.
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> Another interesting application would be if you could measure moisture content in wood
[16:03] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:03] <Laurenceb> hmm
[16:03] Action: Laurenceb looks to see if anything exists to do that
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> Especially if you could do an 'open' instrument
[16:04] <SpeedEvil> where you can press it to a plank/tree/... and get a measurement
[16:04] <Laurenceb> http://www.wagnermeters.com/woodworking.php?gclid=CI-dhOnjt50CFZ1h4wodZ159kQ
[16:04] <Laurenceb> bah
[16:06] <Laurenceb> apparently some sort of capacitance based device or something
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[16:06] <SAIDias> howdy
[16:08] <SpeedEvil> It would be interesting to try to do NMR in the ~spherical contour lines of the field of the pole of a bar magnet
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[17:22] <Laurenceb> A backprojection tomographic image can be achieved by the application of the following pulses. An apodized sinc pulse shaped 90o pulse is applied in conjunction with a slice selection gradient. A frequency encoding gradient is turned on once the slice selection pulse is turned off. The frequency encoding gradient is composed of a Gx and Gy gradient in this example. The FIDs are Fourier transformed to produce the freque
[17:22] <Laurenceb> ncy domain spectrum, which is then backprojected to produce the image.
[17:23] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: think that explains the basics for imaging ^
[17:23] <SpeedEvil> you've also got the other gradient
[17:23] <SpeedEvil> oh
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> backprojection
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> yea
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> I don't see backprojection as really easier in any way other than if you don't understand FFT
[17:25] <Laurenceb> so you have a gradient applied at excitation
[17:25] <Laurenceb> to select a slice
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[17:25] <Laurenceb> then the backprojection works for the remaining 2 dimensions
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> 1 dimension
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> in addition to the slice
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> the backprojection goes from the edges of the slice in multiple 1d's to a 2d view of the slice
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> the slices are completely independant
[17:28] <Laurenceb> yeah
[17:30] <Laurenceb> ah I see
[17:30] <SpeedEvil> I suppose if you wanted an even simpler maths - you could select a slice - then apply the frequency gradient at right angles to it - and completely ignore all but one frequency
[17:30] <Laurenceb> you get out an entire slice at a time - in phase/frequency space
[17:30] <SpeedEvil> So you get a line
[17:30] <Laurenceb> but... you can only have one phase per frequency
[17:30] Action: Laurenceb doesnt follow
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> you have to do multiple gradient pulses at all possible phases
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> to get a picture of phase space
[17:31] <Laurenceb> I dont quite get the FFT approach
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> Do you understand how you get a slice encoded in frequency along x, and phase along y?
[17:32] <Laurenceb> I think so
[17:33] <Laurenceb> but you can only have a single phase for each frequency
[17:33] <SpeedEvil> I understand this.
[17:33] <SpeedEvil> sort of.
[17:33] Action: SpeedEvil ponders how to explain.
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> The phase selection pulse doesn't really select a phase.
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> It adds a position sensitive delay
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> So the phase is offset by x*k seconds
[17:35] <SpeedEvil> along the x axis
[17:35] <SpeedEvil> If you increment x slowly, then you can extract all the seperate delays of each pixel
[17:36] <SpeedEvil> increment in seperate shots
[17:37] <Laurenceb> hmm ok maybe
[17:37] <Laurenceb> I was thinking you extract an entire 2D image of eacxh slice in one decay
[17:38] <SpeedEvil> You know that for pixel 47, the frequency is 4500Hz, and its offset time due to the gradient pulse is 100us - say.
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[17:38] <SpeedEvil> So you add the phase at 4500Hz/100us to the pixel 47 integrator
[17:38] <SpeedEvil> and you then increment the global delay to 101us
[17:40] <SpeedEvil> Once you've got enough integrations, pixel 47s signal is the only one remaining in that bin
[17:40] <rjharrison> wow
[17:40] <rjharrison> Ony caught the last three sentances of that SpeedEvil
[17:40] Action: SpeedEvil is working out how MRI works.
[17:41] <rjharrison> Sounds like GPS decode talk
[17:41] <rjharrison> Oh cool
[17:41] <SpeedEvil> MRI is fun.
[17:41] <SpeedEvil> http://www.cis.rit.edu/htbooks/mri/inside.htm
[17:41] <SpeedEvil> Fourier and stuff.
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> It's actually somewhat similar in some of the concepts.
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> except it doesn't use spread spectrum.
[17:42] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil scary MRI pictures of my head http://www.robertharrison.org/images/mri/IM_00012.JPG
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> I'm trying to work out if you can sanely apply spread spectrum to it
[17:43] <rjharrison> Cool
[17:43] <rjharrison> I'm not the right person to talk to about that :)
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> Is your nose bent?
[17:43] <Laurenceb> why did you mri scan your head?
[17:43] <rjharrison> The septum is internally
[17:44] <rjharrison> Well spotted
[17:44] <rjharrison> Sphenoid sinusitus
[17:44] <SpeedEvil> Sounds like not much fun.
[17:44] <Laurenceb> :-/
[17:45] <rjharrison> Nar it wasn't scary bad headaches for 5 years
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> Fixed?
[17:45] <rjharrison> Petered out
[17:45] <rjharrison> Yep 80% back to normal and I can't remember what normal is
[17:45] Action: SpeedEvil used to have bad migranes.
[17:45] <rjharrison> So I guess this is normal
[17:46] <rjharrison> Yep I have better sympathy for people who are ill now
[17:46] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: so you get out 2D images in phase/frequency space?
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: sort of
[17:46] <Laurenceb> Unfortunately a one dimensional Fourier transform is incapable of this task when more than one vector is located within the 3x3 matrix at a different phase encoding direction location. There needs to be one phase encoding gradient step for each location in the phase encoding gradient direction.
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: you get out 2D images per step - but the second dimension is all jumbled.
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[17:48] <SpeedEvil> For each phase delay, you get out a phase which is some function of all of the pixels.
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> As you vary the phase delay, the function changes
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> Exactly how it changes - I haven't looked deeply at the maths for
[17:48] <Laurenceb> its just linear
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> yes - I know it's linear
[17:49] <Laurenceb> but you only measure one phase
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> I mean I don't know how you'd go about neatly extracting it programmatically.
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[17:50] <Laurenceb> I guess you get out more info per decay
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> I can do it iteratively, I'm sure that's not the fastest way though
[17:50] <Laurenceb> hmm so you need to do a large number of dacys
[17:51] <Laurenceb> or rather of order r^2
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> double the data - or a bit more - of a simple phaseless fourier
[17:51] <Laurenceb> where r is number of voxels along one axis
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> and backprojection
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> SNR probably comes into it too
[17:51] <Laurenceb> it works more linearly with fourier
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> the more samples in phase space, the better the SNR
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> phaseless fouriuer - I mean without a phase encoding gradient
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[18:52] <jcoxon> evening
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[19:30] <edmoore> greetings all
[19:30] <edmoore> jcoxon: boo
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> Evening again.
[19:31] <edmoore> it was surely afternoon earlier
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> It was evening a couple of days ago.
[19:37] <natrium42> http://www.gpsmagazine.com/2009/07/new_spot_gps_tracker_is_smalle.php
[19:37] <natrium42> new SPOT
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[20:01] <rjharrison> evening all
[20:02] <rjharrison> still no PCB :(
[20:03] <sbasuita> rjharrison, cheer up - polystyrene is on its way xD
[20:03] <rjharrison> Cool
[20:03] <rjharrison> The expensive stuff?
[20:03] <sbasuita> rjharrison, no, the normal stuff
[20:03] <rjharrison> Cool
[20:03] <rjharrison> 50mm or 25mm
[20:03] <sbasuita> 25
[20:04] <rjharrison> It's a lot easier to work with
[20:04] <sbasuita> What effect does group temperature have on a launch?
[20:04] <rjharrison> Plus the 50mm adds alot og weight you just don't need
[20:04] <sbasuita> mm
[20:05] <rjharrison> Group Temp?
[20:05] <rjharrison> ground?
[20:05] <sbasuita> sorry, i mean ground air
[20:05] <sbasuita> as opposed to 30km air ; )
[20:05] <rjharrison> Not mush
[20:05] <rjharrison> much
[20:05] <sbasuita> didn't think so
[20:05] <rjharrison> Just launch on next dry windless day
[20:06] <sbasuita> yep
[20:06] <rjharrison> I have done a -1C launch and your fingers get f@##@@ing cold
[20:06] <rjharrison> Especially filling and tying knots
[20:06] <edmoore> jcoxon and I had to take 30 second 'finger' shifts when we tried to launch one cold febuary morning
[20:06] <rjharrison> But we're not there yet
[20:07] <rjharrison> edmoore :)
[20:07] <edmoore> that reads a little wierdly, oh well
[20:07] <rjharrison> What was her name :)
[20:07] <edmoore> it wasn't a her
[20:07] <edmoore> jcoxon has a secret
[20:07] <rjharrison> hows it going edmoore
[20:07] <rjharrison> You back into uni lifestyle?
[20:08] <edmoore> not bad, term is a lot nicer than work
[20:08] <edmoore> it's a holiday, relatively speaking
[20:08] <rjharrison> I'll bet
[20:08] <rjharrison> You had a busy summer
[20:08] <rjharrison> Almost like real work :P
[20:09] <edmoore> i think i'll stay in full time education if that is what real work is like
[20:10] <edmoore> i really want to try some EME
[20:10] <rjharrison> new drug?
[20:10] <edmoore> earth-moon-earth radio
[20:11] <edmoore> am going for a drink, back later
[20:16] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[20:17] Action: jcoxon has a new radiometrix ntx2 on its way
[20:20] <jcoxon> hey rjharrison
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> Damn mice.
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> One in the wall.
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> Making lots of noise.
[20:28] <jcoxon> need some traps...
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> Yes, but I'd have to use a hammer to install them.
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> I've got 12 or so out.
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> I do happen to have a hammer, and am moderately tempted.
[20:30] <SpeedEvil> If it was a clear bit of wall, maybe, but I'd have to move a lot of stuff to get to it
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[21:01] Nick change: bittwist -> RageMajesty
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[21:42] <jcoxon> hey RocketBoy
[21:45] <RocketBoy> yoyo
[21:46] <RocketBoy> I just replied to your email
[21:46] <jcoxon> yeah just reading it now
[21:47] <jcoxon> conviently i am just making an order with radiometrix
[21:48] <RocketBoy> I went down to Swanwick (South coast) to day to talk to NATS about the Terminal Control North stuff
[21:49] <RocketBoy> what i didn't rrealise is that Swanwick is the Air Traffic Control for london
[21:49] <jcoxon> oh right
[21:50] <jcoxon> was this in regards to the aerospace changes
[21:50] <RocketBoy> yeah
[21:50] <jcoxon> progress?
[21:51] <RocketBoy> I don't think it will affect HAB - but will change the way we have to do things for some flights for EARS
[21:51] <jcoxon> okay
[21:52] <RocketBoy> The cool thing was they took me into the Operational ATC room and sat me down with an air traffic controller guiding aircraft into Luton
[21:52] <jcoxon> wow that is cool
[21:53] <jcoxon> always thought it was a very complicated thing
[21:54] <RocketBoy> Ish - its all still shuffeling strips of papaer - The guys has an amazing 3d mind
[21:54] <jcoxon> haha
[21:54] <RocketBoy> he had one aircraft landing al Luton - while another was crossing behind
[21:55] <RocketBoy> they looked like they were going to crash to me
[21:55] <jcoxon> hehe
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[21:55] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, i'm going to get that 434.225 module
[21:56] <RocketBoy> cool
[21:56] <jcoxon> keep it nicely out of the way of the rtty 434.075 module
[21:56] <RocketBoy> you can afford to use a nice innefficent compact antenna
[21:56] <jcoxon> yeah
[21:57] <jcoxon> i've just emailed radiometrix to ask a price for that stub
[21:58] <jcoxon> right i'll bbl
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[22:03] <RocketBoy> looks like lprs do them too http://www.lprs.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=3&products_id=123
[22:03] <RocketBoy> bbl
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[22:13] Nick change: RageMajesty -> StonedMajesty
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[22:39] <Sparky68> Woohoo!
[22:39] <Sparky68> Just won an FT-790R on eBay
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:40] Action: SpeedEvil just lost a thinkpad on ebay :/
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/IBM-X60s-Laptop-for-Spares-or-Repair_W0QQitemZ170391906560QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_Laptops_EH?hash=item27ac262900&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14QQautorefreshZtrue
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[22:44] <fuzzylugnuts> I am verry happy.
[22:44] <fuzzylugnuts> the phidget SBC came in today and I've had a little time to mess with it
[22:53] Nick change: StonedMajesty -> bittwist
[23:28] <SpeedEvil> http://www.berr.gov.uk/consultations/page52505.html
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[23:40] <rjharrison> Sparky68 nice radio
[23:40] <Sparky68> :D
[23:53] <fuzzylugnuts> pic?
[00:00] --- Tue Oct 13 2009