[00:01] <hallam> have you done any calcs on the cmg control authority?
[00:02] <Laurenceb> yes
[00:02] <Laurenceb> you only need about 4 grams for the gyro mass
[00:02] <SpeedEvil1> that's assuming you've got the wacky unfolding?
[00:03] <Laurenceb> yes
[00:03] <SpeedEvil1> so you've got an enormous diameter?
[00:03] <Laurenceb> the total mass for the gyro system is <20grams
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[00:03] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[00:03] <Laurenceb> yes, 40cm
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> that seems likely to be quite wobbly
[00:03] <Laurenceb> the rocket is spun up to about 3000rpm before launch
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> does that matter?
[00:03] <Laurenceb> why wobbly?
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> 40cm gyro, with a piviot in the middle
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> it's not going to behave like a solid gyro
[00:04] <Laurenceb> once its spun up it'll be pretty rigid
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> are you counting that?
[00:04] <Laurenceb> not really... you should be able to get the COG pretty accurate
[00:05] <Laurenceb> also its spinning at over 100Hz
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> hangon - the second stage is spinning at 3000RPM - and then you're trying to unfold the cmg?
[00:05] <Laurenceb> yes
[00:05] <Laurenceb> thats how it unfolds
[00:05] <Laurenceb> the centripetal accel unfolds it
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> Isn't the force on the gyro going to be quite large?
[00:05] <Laurenceb> yes
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> the force that is trying to make it skew off axis
[00:06] <Laurenceb> but it despins
[00:06] <Laurenceb> the moment of inertia increases so the spin rate decreases
[00:06] <Laurenceb> the moment of inertia of the pcb is made to be small
[00:06] <Laurenceb> this is another reason why there is the second motor
[00:07] <Laurenceb> so the second stage continues to spin at ~ the origional rate
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> ah - the gyro is despun when it's trying to do the torqueing
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> right
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> That makes more sense
[00:07] <Laurenceb> yes, thats key to making it work
[00:09] <Laurenceb> the fairing unfolds like petals, also under the action of the centripetal accel
[00:09] <Laurenceb> and that allows the gyro to unfold, and also gives the second stage a little kick to seperate it
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> and falls off?
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> (the fairing
[00:09] <Laurenceb> the tricky bit is to avoid contact between the fairing and gyro
[00:09] <Laurenceb> yes
[00:10] <Laurenceb> but you can test this on the ground
[00:10] <SpeedEvil> Can you?
[00:10] <SpeedEvil> Isn't the atmosphere going to be important?
[00:10] <Laurenceb> a bit
[00:10] <Laurenceb> you can at least get a good idea
[00:11] <Laurenceb> you may want to add mass to the fairing as its such low density
[00:11] <Laurenceb> - balsa with kapton film covering
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> what diameter is the second stage again?
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> oh
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> the fairing is what - 60mm?
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> The surface speed is only going to be 10m/s or so - which isn't too bad - but once it starts to unfold, the aero forces are quite large
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> I suppose to actually get it all unfolded and despun and such is going to take several seconds
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> before it even tries to start torquing
[00:14] <Laurenceb> yes
[00:14] <Laurenceb> as you need you get an idea of the spin axis first
[00:14] <Laurenceb> I was just thinking to test the seperation
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> I mean mechanically
[00:15] <SpeedEvil> so something like a drop vacuum chamber won't really work
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[00:25] <SpeedEvil> http://www.concastpipe.com/pricing/CCP_PriceList2009.pdf
[00:25] <SpeedEvil> hmm 1m dia concrete pipe is about 250 quid a metre.
[00:27] <SpeedEvil> But even 10m of pipe doesn't really give you sane freefall times
[00:28] <Laurenceb> bbl
[00:31] <LaurnceB> could drop from a balloon
[00:33] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[00:33] <SpeedEvil> the sanest solution probably
[00:38] <Laurenceb> what the
[00:39] <Laurenceb> who is LaurnceB?
[00:40] <Laurenceb> oh hallam
[00:40] <Laurenceb> very clever :P
[00:44] <Randomskk> woo
[00:44] <Randomskk> cambridge
[00:45] Nick change: LaurnceB -> hallam
[00:45] <hallam> Randomskk: cambridge eh?
[00:46] Action: Randomskk would log in from his laptop but freenode isn't rDNSing the .cam.ac.uk addr anyway
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[01:04] <Laurenceb> youve moved in?
[01:05] <Laurenceb> shouldnt you be in the JCR getting pissed or something
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> He's unpacking the chloroform.
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[01:07] <Laurenceb> or the rohypnol
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> http://www.alloycleaner.com/
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> I came across the above site when I was actually needing to clean my alloys.
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> Why am I not convinced.
[01:09] <Laurenceb> http://www.alloycleaner.com/index.php?cPath=22&osCsid=7fbe0fde89f8ac02e8625e5414437915
[01:13] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Butyrolactone
[01:13] <Laurenceb> hmm paint stripper
[01:13] <Laurenceb> ...
[01:14] <Laurenceb> so... someone setup that site and is actually shipping... for the lulz?
[01:16] <hallam> fresher's week is really not that great
[01:16] <hallam> I guess you meet people
[01:16] <hallam> but the pub crawl kind of blew
[01:17] <Laurenceb> at oxofrd we had a party boat
[01:17] <hallam> that's more like it
[01:17] <Laurenceb> that was pretty cool
[01:18] <Laurenceb> keble also had a party cruiser...
[01:18] <Laurenceb> cue massive water fight ect down the Thames
[01:20] <Randomskk> yup, new people met and I finally managed to get laptop online
[01:20] <Randomskk> registering to get online requires your cambridge id
[01:20] <Randomskk> getting your cambridge id requires being online
[01:20] <Randomskk> computer room near me is locked and my key doesn't open it, so...
[01:20] <Randomskk> phone tethering ftw
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[03:14] <hallam> Randomskk, become aware of your college's network usage policy
[03:15] <hallam> for some retarded reason most of them automatically start fining you large amounts of money if you use too much, rather than automatically slowing you down or something
[03:27] <hallam> natrium42, how are things up north?
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[09:24] <mmcroberts1> Do I have to use FSK on the 433MHz transmitter on the payload or could I use RTTY ? I want to send simple ASCII code over serial (GPS NMEA data).
[09:34] <gordonjcp> mmcroberts1: that's not comparing like with like
[09:34] <gordonjcp> rtty is what goes over the air interface, fsk *is* the air interface
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[11:13] <mmcroberts1> ok maybe i said that wrong then - I think a lot of people is CW or other methods. I want to send standard RTTY over a standard 433MHz radio module. Is that feasible to receive it (with the appropriate equipment) from 100k feet?
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[11:56] <gordonjcp> mmcroberts1: should be
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[13:32] <rharrison> This is a test
[13:32] <rharrison> Humm seems to work
[13:32] <rharrison> Hi all
[13:32] <Randomskk> hi
[13:32] <rharrison> Hey Randomskk you in camb yet
[13:32] <Randomskk> y4*
[13:33] <Randomskk> yup*
[13:33] <Randomskk> numlock lol
[13:33] <rharrison> lol
[13:33] <rharrison> Have you caught up with Ed and the guys from CUSF yet
[13:33] <Randomskk> not yet, only got here yesterday... will probably see them at the union fresher's fair
[13:33] <rharrison> Yep
[13:34] <Randomskk> did meet up with the other engineer at my college who has launched his own balloon
[13:34] <rharrison> Cool
[13:34] <rharrison> DO you know who it was?
[13:35] <Randomskk> jon someone :p
[13:35] <rharrison> hehe too many names to remember :)
[13:35] <Randomskk> knew he was john doing engineering at selwyn so when I met someone called john I figured it was him :p
[13:36] <Randomskk> haha yea
[13:36] <Randomskk> not even trying for last names yet
[13:36] <rharrison> I'm hoping to do a launch soon from Cambridge. An attempt at the world altitude record
[13:36] <Randomskk> ooh. how high is that?
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> for latex?
[13:37] <rharrison> yep
[13:37] <rharrison> ~140,00 feet
[13:37] <rharrison> 140,000
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> minimally inflated large balloon with very small payload?
[13:37] <rharrison> SpeedEvil: yep that's the plan
[13:37] <rharrison> I have the 3kgs here
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[13:51] <rjharrison_> Another quick test
[13:51] <rjharrison_> http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker
[13:51] <rjharrison_> Trying to fix the web client on the tracker
[13:52] <SpeedEvil> losing the tracker, and adding back the webclient?
[13:52] <SpeedEvil> I mean - the lat/lon/alt box
[13:53] <SpeedEvil> also - are all the antennas appropriate
[13:53] <SpeedEvil> dunno what this is for
[13:53] <rjharrison> The antennas are meant to show thw people activly tracking the payload
[13:53] <SpeedEvil> yeah - is this for mass market?
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[13:54] <SpeedEvil> client seems to work anwyay.
[13:54] <rjharrison> http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/?mission_id=90
[13:55] <rjharrison> This should show the info box too
[13:55] <rjharrison> and an old track
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> Inseed it does
[13:56] <rjharrison> Cool
[13:56] <rjharrison> I'm trying to match the client to screen size
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> Random: anyone ever played with a cheap easy to use, available cryptographically secure RFID system?
[13:57] <rjharrison> the tracker at any rate
[13:57] <Randomskk> I've only used cheap, easy to use, available but non-cryptographic ones
[13:57] <Randomskk> looking out for some crypto ones but not seen anything yet really
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=568-2220-1-ND
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> for example
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> cheap, moderately easy to use
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> 3des
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> but no actual docs
[13:58] <Randomskk> checked NXP's site?
[13:59] <SpeedEvil> nxp is _very_ unfriendly to the small user
[13:59] <Randomskk> they are probably available as a kit with reader plus the chip embeddd in a card with an antenna
[13:59] <Randomskk> heh
[13:59] <SpeedEvil> no publically available docs
[13:59] <Randomskk> :/
[13:59] <SpeedEvil> And you have to register to get docs, which they may or may not send - do not IME if you're a small vendor
[14:01] <Randomskk> don't a few other places do crypto rfid though? ST for example
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> Hmm - haven't looked.
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> TI similarly don't do docs for their crypto stuff
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> I should have a poke around for more vendors
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[14:56] <rjharrison_testi> lol that should read testing
[14:56] <rjharrison_testi> not testi
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> 14 char limit on names
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> or something
[14:59] <rjharrison> Hey SpeedEvil do you mind doing a quick test with me broadcasting
[14:59] <rjharrison> Would like to know if you can hear audio
[14:59] <SpeedEvil> sure
[15:01] <rjharrison_testi> ok here it comes
[15:01] <rjharrison_testi> http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/
[15:01] <rjharrison_testi> Broadcasting
[15:02] <rjharrison_testi> May need to refreash the ustream content
[15:02] <rjharrison_testi> Opps broadcasting now
[15:03] <rjharrison_testi> SpeedEvil: any joy?
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> sorry - was eating
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> seems to be
[15:06] <SpeedEvil> no sound - I'm seeing if it's here - it may be
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> sigh
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> broken here
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> fixing
[15:09] <rjharrison_testi> any joy on the sound
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> ok - working
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> was a problem here
[15:10] <rjharrison_testi> Going to stop broadcasting
[15:10] <rjharrison_testi> thanks for your help with thsi SpeedEvil
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> np
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[15:33] <fuzzylugnuts> hey, question for you guys
[15:35] <fuzzylugnuts> If I wanted to emulate a zero pressure balloon with a latex one, I would need to have a vent of some sort to vent lift gas and slow the accent rate to 0?
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> maybe
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> It's also seemingly possible to get 0 lift due to the balance of the elastic force on the balloon doing a mild superpressure effect
[15:36] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm sure that will play a part due to the elasticity of the balloon
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> If - round numbers - the internal pressure of the balloon is 1 millibar, the external is 4 millibars, then the total differential pressure is 3mB
[15:37] <fuzzylugnuts> :P no kidding
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> The balloon - neglecting elastic forces - continues to expand as it rises, rising at a constant rate
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> (ish)
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> If you fill it just the right amount, it ascends, but there is instead of a nice continuous constant lift due to altitude, it drops off to zero due to the elastic force
[15:38] <fuzzylugnuts> hmm
[15:39] <fuzzylugnuts> It seems that the point of neutral bouyancy is infinetly small due tot he balloons ability to expand, then
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> By making the balloon smaller, the elastic force adds a virtual weight that rises as it goes up
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> no - not quite
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> imagine for example a balloon with 10mB internal pressure
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> And say 50% of the total mass as free lift
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> It will ascend until the external pressure is something like 20mB or so, and then not ascend further
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> because though the balloon would indeed expand as it goes up - the internal pressure is rising faster than the external pressure is falling.
[15:41] <fuzzylugnuts> with latex balloons the differential pressure is so small though... the window of altitude that its neutrally bouyant would be tiny
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> Or rather - the internal effective density is rising faster than the external density
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> the numbers I did a while back - IIRC - indicated on the order of a millibar
[15:42] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, thats pretty small
[15:42] <SpeedEvil> which - with an external atmosphere of 4mB - is quite significant
[15:43] <fuzzylugnuts> but at 35000ft, the pressure is 230ish mbar
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> 35000 is very low
[15:44] <fuzzylugnuts> Yah
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> At 34km forex - it's 6mB
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> I'd misremembered the pressure
[15:47] <fuzzylugnuts> even at 80kft the pressure is up down to 28mbar
[15:47] <fuzzylugnuts> So it would seem a latex balloon, even vented, would be quite impractical for neutral bouyancy
[15:49] <fuzzylugnuts> thats all I wanted to bounce off you guys
[15:52] <fuzzylugnuts> I'd like to mess around with ZP balloons sometime, but just don't have the time/facilities to build the balloon
[15:58] <rjharrison> fuzzylugnuts latex and neutral boyancy is cool
[15:58] <rjharrison> Need as you say a vent an ballast
[15:58] <rjharrison> and
[16:03] <fuzzylugnuts> luck
[16:03] <fuzzylugnuts> : )
[16:03] <fuzzylugnuts> I want to have a remotely operated vent on the balloon just to mess with it
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[16:13] <rjharrison> any one know when james is due home?
[16:13] <rjharrison> Ohh
[16:13] <rjharrison> Maybe he's back
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[16:40] <fuzzylugnuts> there really was a cake ;_;
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[17:15] <jcoxon> afternoon all
[17:16] <fuzzylugnuts> Hi
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[17:17] <jcoxon> hey fuzzylugnuts
[17:18] <fuzzylugnuts> how goes it?
[17:21] <jcoxon> good thanks
[17:21] <jcoxon> and you?
[17:22] <fuzzylugnuts> doing pretty well. waiting for a truck so I can move a server rack into storage
[17:24] <jcoxon> cool cool
[17:26] <jcoxon> am in hte process of making a old ibook into a home server
[17:30] <fuzzylugnuts> oh yeah?
[17:30] <fuzzylugnuts> that'd be the way to do it, nice and powersaving too.
[17:33] <jcoxon> built in ups as well :-p
[17:41] <fuzzylugnuts> haha, yeah
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[18:19] <rjharrison> Hey jcoxon
[18:19] Action: sbasuita waves at jcoxon
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[18:27] <rjharrison> I have found a replacement for mibbit on the tracker
[18:27] <rjharrison> http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=highaltitude
[18:28] <rjharrison> Just for anyone who wants to use a web client for some reason
[18:28] <rjharrison> Hi DanielRichman hows it going
[18:28] <rjharrison> You must be getting ready to launch soon
[18:28] <rjharrison> I know you don't like commitment
[18:29] <DanielRichman> oh man, commitment
[18:29] <DanielRichman> ping sbasuita
[18:30] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, sup
[18:30] <DanielRichman> launching soon, sbasuita ?
[18:31] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, er celotex
[18:31] <DanielRichman> yep.
[18:32] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, what
[18:32] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, alex says it hasn't arrived
[18:32] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, i'm just bored of taking the blame, that's all
[18:32] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, chillax
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[18:46] <ohai> DanielRichman: sup
[18:46] <DanielRichman> erm. hi, ohai
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[19:21] <rjharrison> DanielRichman befor you launch assuning you are going to be using the tracker. Can you send me some sample rtty and the layout of the fields
[19:21] <Snomi> sbasuita:
[19:21] <sbasuita> Snomi, simon
[19:21] <Snomi> sbasuita: sup
[19:21] <DanielRichman> rjharrison, sure
[19:21] <rjharrison> DanielRichman been playing with the tracker today to put some options in
[19:21] <sbasuita> Snomi, listening to some hendrix
[19:21] <DanielRichman> rjharrison, what, now?
[19:21] <rjharrison> Hendrix is the best
[19:22] <rjharrison> DanielRichman when ever
[19:22] <Snomi> sbasuita: btw i bought an album today!
[19:22] <sbasuita> Snomi, nowai
[19:22] <DanielRichman> rjharrison, maybe closer to actual launch date ;)
[19:22] <DanielRichman> but i can give you some demo fields
[19:22] <rjharrison> DanielRichman http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/index.php?mission_id=90
[19:23] <rjharrison> I'm trying to get the display to adjust to screen res
[19:23] <DanielRichman> ooh nice
[19:23] <DanielRichman> * *<CHECKSUM><NEWLINE> */
[19:23] <DanielRichman> * *<CHECKSUM><NEWLINE> */
[19:23] <DanielRichman> urgh xchat is messing me about
[19:24] <rjharrison> Cool
[19:24] <DanielRichman> $$A1,00626,18:01:28,01.234567,-000.123456,00074,0000,04,29404000,45,*43\n
[19:24] <DanielRichman> where the \n on the end is a literal newline/xA
[19:24] <DanielRichman> (I think it's xA, meh)
[19:24] <rjharrison> I'll set you up with an XML file when your closer
[19:24] <DanielRichman> cool
[19:24] <rjharrison> ie when you are no longer making changes :)
[19:25] <DanielRichman> It's pretty much final
[19:25] <DanielRichman> but yeah, ok
[19:25] <rjharrison> Needs about 24hr before launch an about 5 mins of test rtty t make sure it works
[19:25] <DanielRichman> can certainly be done
[19:26] <rjharrison> Save panics on the day and it relly nice to track
[19:26] <rjharrison> Will be tracking you on the day anyhow
[19:26] <DanielRichman> Awesome :)
[19:27] <rjharrison> If you have mobile internet and a gps device I have some linux code that will upload the chase car coors to the tracker too
[19:27] <DanielRichman> I do have both
[19:27] <DanielRichman> infact i have two mobile internetz
[19:28] <rjharrison> Great use one for live video during the launch :)
[19:28] <DanielRichman> As for the gps device, I should be able to get that.
[19:28] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, have you got a laptop to use yet?
[19:28] <DanielRichman> Live video, check
[19:28] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, use mine :X
[19:28] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, er no
[19:28] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, it will run out of battery
[19:28] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, i was joking
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[19:28] <rjharrison> DanielRichman http://www.robertharrison.org/svn/listing.php?repname=the-icarus-project&path=%2Frelated-software%2Fgpstrack-0.1b%2F#path_related-software_gpstrack-0.1b_
[19:28] <DanielRichman> Hmm.... I reckon I can acquire a laptop
[19:29] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, how about your brothers
[19:29] <rjharrison> there is a script there called track vi that to get an idea of how it works
[19:29] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, also did you get my forwarded mail about the money for foundation license?
[19:29] <rjharrison> Very simple but effective
[19:30] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, yeah.
[19:30] <DanielRichman> rjharrison, cool, thanks
[19:30] <rjharrison> DanielRichman if not I have a spare eee you can borrow on the day. Assuming you are going to do this on a w/e there is a good chance that I will be there
[19:31] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, if we have two laptops... one running windows and streaming live video, one doing the tracking etc.
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[19:31] <DanielRichman> unless... how do you think we should stream?
[19:31] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, ustream.tv
[19:31] <DanielRichman> most online services use flash based webcam streaming which sucks for linux
[19:32] <rjharrison> ustream from windows
[19:32] <DanielRichman> exactly
[19:32] <DanielRichman> so unless you fancy running virtualbox or Xen (can you even Xen windows??) then we'll need two laptops
[19:33] <DanielRichman> anyway, gtg
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[19:35] Action: natrium42 looks at sbasuita
[19:35] <sbasuita> :s
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[21:59] <Sparky68> Can you connect a 433MHz Yago antenna to the ant input on a Radiometrix module (or any other standard 433MHz module for that matter) ?
[21:59] <Sparky68> *YAgi
[21:59] <Sparky68> on the receiver end
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[22:28] <Sparky68> ok i've found out the answer is yes elsewhere
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[22:36] <Sparky68> ok... Why use 433MHz at all? Who not use the licence exempt 173MHz band? You can get much logner range?
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[00:00] --- Mon Oct 5 2009