highaltitude.log.20091003

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[10:28] <SpeedEvil> wiki.ukhas.org.uk
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[11:25] <mmcroberts1> thanks
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[15:50] <jatkins> hi jcoxon
[15:51] <jcoxon> hello
[15:51] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, you're back!
[15:51] <jcoxon> indeed i am back
[15:52] <jcoxon> got back this morning
[15:52] <DanielRichman> Was your trip good?
[15:52] <jcoxon> yeah, very though was hard work so am quite tired
[15:52] <DanielRichman> cool
[15:53] <jcoxon> so what did i miss?
[15:53] <DanielRichman> not much tbh
[15:53] <jcoxon> any launches?
[15:54] <DanielRichman> Yes, there were a few
[15:54] <DanielRichman> rjharrison launched for the sun
[15:54] <DanielRichman> (I think it was the sun)
[15:54] <jcoxon> oh cool, yeah i got an email from them asking for some help
[15:54] <DanielRichman> Cambridge guys launched a bit, i think.
[15:55] <jcoxon> cool
[15:55] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, where is your launch!
[15:55] <DanielRichman> Episode three in "The Celotex Sagas:"
[15:55] <DanielRichman> Waiting, waiting and moar waiting
[15:55] <DanielRichman> Episode one being: We need insulation
[15:55] <DanielRichman> and two: <Breton> Let's use this celotex stuff! Half the U-value
[15:56] <DanielRichman> but the payload is finished (!)
[15:56] <DanielRichman> and working, too
[15:56] <DanielRichman> (payload referring to the electronix)
[15:56] <jcoxon> hehe, never known a payload to wait around for insulation
[15:56] <DanielRichman> it's on the shelf to my right; everything is done except the box and the tx antenna (so gps, radio, sd card, temp sensors, camera) all work
[15:57] <jcoxon> cool, well get it up in the air asap
[15:57] <jcoxon> thats an order
[15:57] <DanielRichman> no worries
[15:57] <DanielRichman> well... yes worries
[15:57] <DanielRichman> we're not very punctual, but I'm trying at least
[15:58] <DanielRichman> sbasuita reckons he can get a yagi on the day
[15:58] <DanielRichman> so all is good
[15:58] <jcoxon> has the UKHAS listening network been working?
[15:58] <jcoxon> or has it been single people tracking payloads
[15:59] <DanielRichman> I helped track rjharrison's one
[15:59] <jcoxon> ooo cool
[15:59] <DanielRichman> although the quality wasn't great and I ended up uploading ~20 sentences
[15:59] <DanielRichman> because the checksum failed the majority of them
[15:59] <jcoxon> hmmm no on has updated the wiki's list of launches
[15:59] <DanielRichman> perhaps you could have it take the checksum into account, try to work out where the error is?
[16:00] <DanielRichman> ie, if it's 5$2.001912 latitude you could deduce the bit flip from the checksum, correct it and upload
[16:00] <jcoxon> unfortunately thats the issue with the checksums
[16:00] <DanielRichman> true
[16:01] <jcoxon> something to chat with rjharrison about
[16:02] <DanielRichman> you could take into account the timings too
[16:02] <DanielRichman> because if a start bit is missed/flipped things go badly wrong
[16:02] <DanielRichman> fldigi usually loses track and the whole sentence gets binned
[16:02] <jcoxon> true
[16:02] <DanielRichman> so... if you represent each bit as a percentage rather than a 0 or a 1 (modify the decoder)
[16:03] <DanielRichman> and upload like that
[16:03] <jcoxon> alot of the problem is that there are 2 operating modes
[16:03] <jcoxon> 1) 1 or 2 listeners - where you need to scrap as much data as possible
[16:03] <DanielRichman> have the tracker take into account averages, distances from payload, reliability
[16:03] <jcoxon> 2) 3+ trackers where you can easily dump data
[16:03] <DanielRichman> true
[16:04] <jcoxon> the system works really well at present with 3+ trackers
[16:04] <jcoxon> so perhaps we need to have it have 2 modes, and switch between the 2
[16:05] <DanielRichman> deciding on which mode might be difficult, if one person is uploading a good sentence every ~3 mins, and another is uploading every sentence correctly
[16:05] <DanielRichman> etc.
[16:05] <jcoxon> perhaps a human 'switch'
[16:05] <DanielRichman> :P
[16:05] <jcoxon> someone will be watching the data
[16:06] <DanielRichman> How about you have dl-fldigi ignore checksums and upload all vaguely correct sentences, checksums can be for the final human to work out if it's reliable enough to drive towards
[16:06] <jcoxon> thats what is happening
[16:06] <jcoxon> well its uploading the data ignoring hte checksum
[16:06] <DanielRichman> Not my version of dl-fldigi, I don't think
[16:06] <DanielRichman> or maybe i'm just mistaken
[16:07] <jcoxon> however
[16:07] <jcoxon> it won't upload too dirty data, it has a few rules to follow such as start character, field number and field length
[16:07] <DanielRichman> Also, I was doing a fldigi rx-capture, and I found that playing it back on my desktop and decoding resulted in lots of 100% correct sentences, way more than when I was doing the actual listening on my laptop
[16:07] <DanielRichman> ah, ok
[16:08] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, yeah thats quite a good trick - i did that with the PBH trans-a flight with their morse
[16:08] <DanielRichman> next time I might set up a pulseaudio link so can decode on my desktop with laptop in the north-facing room
[16:08] <jcoxon> would record the transmission and run it through the decoder a couple of times
[16:08] Action: DanielRichman has discovered the power of pulseaudio
[16:09] <jcoxon> hehe
[16:09] <DanielRichman> Oh! There's a win32 version
[16:09] <DanielRichman> gotta install that on my family's computers sometime
[16:09] <DanielRichman> for remote sound
[16:09] <jcoxon> hmmm what date was icarrus launch?
[16:10] <DanielRichman> 26sep, I think
[16:10] <DanielRichman> not 100% sure
[16:11] <jcoxon> hmmm i'll wait till i speak to him
[16:15] <jcoxon> anybody want anything from sparkfun?
[16:16] <DanielRichman> everybody wants EVERYTHING from sparkfun
[16:17] <DanielRichman> unfortunately the majority of their products have a price tag
[16:17] <jatkins> coolcomponents.co.uk (based in london) sell some of their stuff
[16:17] <jatkins> so no transatlantic postage
[16:17] <DanielRichman> yeah, true
[16:17] <jcoxon> jatkins, indeed they do
[16:17] <jcoxon> but not everything :-p
[16:17] <jatkins> yeah
[16:18] <jatkins> the other uk distributors sell very few sparkfun items
[16:18] <jcoxon> as long as you don't get charged customs on entry it isn't too bad
[16:18] <jcoxon> consider the weak dollar
[16:18] <jatkins> yeah
[16:18] <jatkins> I had to go to the post office to pay customs on a sparkfun item a while back
[16:19] <jcoxon> yeah it varies, sometimes sparkfun are kind and don't put hte full value on the package
[16:19] <jatkins> yeah
[16:19] <jcoxon> well i'm happy to sort out an order and its better to ship all together so if people have any orders get in touch
[16:20] <jcoxon> this is what a want: https://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9072
[16:21] <jatkins> cool
[16:21] <jatkins> for the ballast?
[16:21] <jcoxon> yeah
[16:21] <jatkins> cool
[16:21] <jcoxon> though just found that total robots stock them as well
[16:22] <jcoxon> though considerably more expensive
[16:24] <jatkins> yeah
[16:24] <jatkins> jcoxon: can i ask about how you program cutdown?
[16:24] <jcoxon> sure
[16:24] <jatkins> do you use the haversine formula?
[16:24] <jcoxon> usually it is based upon certain rules
[16:24] <jatkins> ok
[16:24] <jcoxon> its been done
[16:25] <jcoxon> i often go for a box, if the lat or lon exceed the box cutdown
[16:25] <jcoxon> and then have a timer just in case
[16:25] <jatkins> ok
[16:25] <jcoxon> say cutdown after 4hrs
[16:25] <jatkins> ok
[16:25] <jatkins> in case it stays afloat?
[16:25] <jcoxon> yes
[16:26] <jatkins> what wire do you usually cut - is it nylon?
[16:26] <jcoxon> mainly if you underfill the balloon an so it rises very slowly and gets blown along way
[16:26] <jatkins> ok
[16:26] <jatkins> I read on the wiki sometimes nylon is not so good
[16:26] <jcoxon> i've been using nichrome to cut the kite line i've had lying around
[16:26] <jcoxon> it works very well
[16:26] <jatkins> ok
[16:26] <jcoxon> or there are the explosive devices
[16:27] <jatkins> I've got the basic resistor cutting nylon with a transistor
[16:27] <jatkins> 15 ohms on a pp3
[16:27] <jcoxon> oh that sounds like a great method
[16:27] <jcoxon> rocketboy has used that to great affect
[16:27] <jcoxon> i think that was what was used on the bbc mission
[16:29] <jatkins> does the distance each degree change over a certain distance?
[16:29] <jatkins> wikipedia says you do (pi/180d)*cos(lat)
[16:29] <jatkins> or does it not matter over small distances?
[16:29] <jatkins> I programmed a basic version of the haversine formula http://snipplr.com/view/20586/arduino-distance-between-two-points/
[16:29] <jatkins> based on a js implementation - http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong.html
[16:31] <DanielRichman> Can you stick something onto the balloon, and to cutdown it pops the balloon?
[16:31] <DanielRichman> rather than cutting wires
[16:31] <DanielRichman> I don't know, heat up the latex enough to pop it etc.
[16:31] <jatkins> maybe around the sealing point
[16:32] <jatkins> hot-wire cutdown has usually worked in the past, I think
[16:34] <jatkins> jcoxon: an unrelated question: is a gps puck that has been slightly damaged (the ceramic has a bit of a cut in it) still safe to use (i.e. regarding inteferance)
[16:34] <jatkins> it still returns correct position data
[16:35] <jcoxon> if it is working on the ground then it should work in the air
[16:35] <jatkins> I mean not a risk to plane navigation systems or intefering with other people's tvs or anything
[16:36] <jatkins> it works it's just got a bit of a cut on the ceramic
[16:36] <jcoxon> oh of course not, its a gps receiver, it doesn't transmit anything
[16:37] <jatkins> oh, ok
[16:39] <jcoxon> bbl
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[16:47] <jatkins> g2g
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[18:41] <mmcroberts1> Guys in the UK - Maplins are selling a "Speed Camera Advisor" for £14.99 at the moment. It can also be used as a GPS Mouse. It is easily hackable to get the NMEA GPS data off it on a serial line. Cheapest GPS module out there right now I think.
[18:42] <mmcroberts1> Video I did of reading the NMEA data from it - http://vimeo.com/6841106
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> If you could upload speed camera locations to it, then that would be awesome
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> you could make a cutdown device with no extra hardware
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> just trigger on a 'speed camera' detection
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?moduleno=229284
[18:46] <mmcroberts1> lol
[18:47] <mmcroberts1> it already has a speedcamera database in it
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> No
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> I mean upload a ring of speedcameras round where you don't want teh balloon to go
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> Say 20 miles from the sea
[18:47] <mmcroberts1> yeah that could be done
[18:47] <ms7821> yeah, you can synchronise it
[18:47] <mmcroberts1> it sets of a piezo alaarm when it detects one so just rig that circuitry to the cut-down
[18:48] <mmcroberts1> there is a 16Mb eeprom on board you'd just need to give it a list of fake speed cameras
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> what chipset is it?
[18:48] <mmcroberts1> there is also an Atmega16L chip on board and pads to reprogram it
[18:48] <mmcroberts1> the GPS is MediaTek
[18:49] <mmcroberts1> FGPMMOPA6
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> you don't know 0- presumably if it'd work at altitude though
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> which is unfortunate
[18:49] <mmcroberts1> it has a standard GPS module inside it
[18:49] <mmcroberts1> so I see no reason why not
[18:50] <mmcroberts1> Middle unit on this website - http://www.gtop-tech.com/
[18:50] <mmcroberts1> FGPMMOPA6
[18:51] <SpeedEvil> There is a common misreading of hte international traffic in arms regulations of the US - that means that instead of GPSs locking out at over 60000 feet and 1000 knots at the same time - they lock out when either of these conditions happens
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> which is annoying for balloons obviously.
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[19:12] <Laurenceb> hello
[19:12] <SpeedEvil> hello
[19:13] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: I dont think you need and AND gates for your ESC
[19:13] <Laurenceb> hi SpeedEvil
[19:13] <Laurenceb> you can do it all with resistors
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> I prefer duct tape.
[19:14] <Laurenceb> heh
[19:14] <Laurenceb> if you have say 500 ohm resistors off your PWM line to the npn transitors that pull down the P channel FETs
[19:15] <Laurenceb> then IO pins to the gate of each BJT
[19:15] <Laurenceb> you pull down the ones you want to turn off
[19:17] <Laurenceb> also if you have an inverted PWM output, and drive the N channel FET on the bridge with that signal, you avoid diode losses
[19:17] <Laurenceb> you could use OC0A and B for that
[19:19] <Laurenceb> so with 50% pwm duty cycle half the time both the motor poles you are driving are tied to gnd
[19:27] <Laurenceb> one nice feature would be some sort of fuse
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[19:30] <Laurenceb> http://uk.farnell.com/tyco-electronics-raychem/rgef1100/resettable-fuse/dp/1277756 something like that but hopefully smaller
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[19:46] <rjharrison> evening all
[19:46] <rjharrison> any one have a big screen who has tracked befor?
[19:46] <rjharrison> If so can you try this link http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/test.php?mission_id=90
[19:47] <rjharrison> and tell me how it compares to
[19:47] <rjharrison> http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/index.php?mission_id=90
[19:49] <SpeedEvil> same - on my 1024x768
[19:55] <rjharrison> ok cool
[19:56] <rjharrison> It should adjust the map to be bigger / smaller for bigger / smaller screens
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[20:22] <junderwood> Looks great on 1600x1200
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> http://b3ta.com/challenge/rebornasporn/page18
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> (somewhat randomly)
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> sort-of-worksafe
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[20:41] <mmcroberts1> Speedevil - so how do you get around the 60,000 feet GPS rule for High Altitude flights?
[20:42] <SpeedEvil> You pick gpss that properly implement it
[20:43] <mmcroberts1> How would you know though?
[20:44] <SpeedEvil> you look at the list on the wiki
[20:47] <Laurenceb> http://knowyourmeme.com/i/15538/original/It__s_the_Salad_Toilet_by_Serena_Kaminari.jpg?1252046076
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[21:29] <SpeedEvil> http://www.vinculum.com/prd_vdrive1.html
[21:30] <SpeedEvil> interesting for mass-storage use rather than bit-banging a sd card
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[22:16] Nick change: natrium42 -> arduino
[22:17] <arduino> where is Laurenceb?
[22:18] Nick change: arduino -> zxcvcxz
[22:19] Nick change: zxcvcxz -> natrium42
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[23:11] <hallam> hello
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[23:31] <Laurenceb> hi all
[23:32] <natrium42> [17:16] <arduino> where is Laurenceb? [18:31] <Laurenceb> hi all
[23:32] <Laurenceb> noooo
[23:32] Action: Laurenceb dies
[23:33] <natrium42> [17:16] * You are now known as arduino
[23:33] <natrium42> :D
[23:33] <natrium42> surprising that this name isn't registered
[23:35] <hallam> hi Laurenceb
[23:36] <Laurenceb> hi hallam
[23:36] <hallam> what are you up to these days?
[23:36] <Laurenceb> hanging about
[23:36] <Laurenceb> was gardening all afternoon
[23:36] <Laurenceb> I'm moving on Monday
[23:36] <Laurenceb> heading to Coventry
[23:38] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/65458 <- been doing lots of decorating/tiling ect
[23:39] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/65462 <- thats the before shot
[23:40] <hallam> quite the improvement
[23:40] <hallam> what will you be doing in Coventry?
[23:40] <Laurenceb> well after the plastering and insulation/drylining was finished
[23:40] <Laurenceb> at Warwick Uni
[23:44] <Laurenceb> have you seen my n-prize idea?
[23:46] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/65475
[23:46] <Laurenceb> basically two stages of that
[23:46] <Laurenceb> balloon launched and spin stabilised
[23:46] <Laurenceb> using cesaroni reloads as the fuel
[23:48] <Laurenceb> I've got some sim code using drag data from aerolab and 1.8Kg GLOW from a balloon at 32Km works - 200x300km orbit for 10grams payload
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[23:53] <hallam> you just spin it up on the balloon platform and launch both stages unguided?
[23:54] <Laurenceb> yes
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[23:54] <Laurenceb> but theres a control moment gyro on the second stage
[23:54] <Laurenceb> it unfolds
[23:55] <Laurenceb> just a sec I'll post it
[23:55] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/66299
[23:56] <Laurenceb> that fits into the second stage nozzle
[23:57] <Laurenceb> it computes the spin axis from the horizon sensor phase and duty cycle relative to the sun sensor
[23:57] <Laurenceb> then spins up the gyro to get the second stage spin axis horizontal
[23:57] <Laurenceb> stage 2 is then ignited just before apogee
[00:00] --- Sun Oct 4 2009