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[00:47] <Laurenceb> http://www.b3tards.com/u/04d821dabf7fcbecc84b/jurassicjesus.jpg
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> I think my favourite of all time is http://www.b3tards.com/u/ec4c23e69d6ed94d4ae4/atst-haywain.jpg
[00:53] <Laurenceb> hmm the nebula guy has done something
[00:53] <Laurenceb> http://www.nebula-aerospace.com/news/articles/testtanks.asp
[00:53] <Laurenceb> I'm not convinced...
[00:56] <Laurenceb> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=nitrous+oxide
[00:56] <Laurenceb> I think propane cylinders will burst with nitrous?
[01:03] <SpeedEvil> The margins are stupid IIRC
[01:04] <Laurenceb> well... actually
[01:04] <SpeedEvil> also isn't propane and nitrous similar vapour pressures?
[01:04] <Laurenceb> propane cylinders have crazy safety factor
[01:05] <Laurenceb> about 4 or so
[01:06] <Laurenceb> nitrous at 35C is about 1000psi
[01:08] <Laurenceb> but they have releaf valves set to open at 400psi
[01:09] <Laurenceb> 1000psi is probably rather dangerous
[01:09] <Laurenceb> at the very least
[01:09] <Laurenceb> gtg
[01:09] <SpeedEvil> safe if you have a
[01:09] <SpeedEvil> chilled tank
[01:09] <SpeedEvil> wave
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[04:03] <swilly> is there anywhere that I can buy a regulator with a GCA 580 fitting for balloon filling?
[04:04] <swilly> i know that just about anything *should* work, but i would like one that someone has previously had success with
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[07:31] <juxta> I've got some questions regarding radios & ranges, anybody about who might be able to answer?
[08:08] <rjharrison_> am now
[08:08] <rjharrison_> juxta
[08:09] <rjharrison_> ping natrium_
[08:14] <juxta> hey rjharrison_
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[08:35] <rjharrison_> hey jasonb
[08:35] <rjharrison_> opps
[08:35] <rjharrison_> juxta
[08:35] <rjharrison_> What do you want to know about range
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[10:07] Action: SpeedEvil lols.
[10:07] <SpeedEvil> I'm fairly sure ebuyer.com are significantly violating the lotteries act.
[10:08] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebuyer.com/cargiveaway?hpb=2
[10:08] <SpeedEvil> (there has to be a free method of entry)
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[10:16] Action: SpeedEvil realises he doesn't know if yesterdays payload was recovered.
[11:10] <rjharrison_> ping SpeedEvil
[11:11] <rjharrison_> Yep it was
[11:11] <rjharrison_> http://www.robertharrison.org/images/icarus2/Launch4/
[11:11] <rjharrison_> Promotion removed
[11:11] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:12] <rjharrison_> Caught burst on the last pic
[11:12] <SpeedEvil> I bet I can guess the exact colour and font though :)
[11:12] <rjharrison_> Hehe it's just the front page I need to protect from disclosure
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[11:12] <SpeedEvil> neat!
[11:13] <rjharrison_> You can imagine the sun's front page
[11:14] <SpeedEvil> neat idea anyway.
[11:15] <rjharrison_> Yep due out 17th Nov
[11:15] <SpeedEvil> This was just icarus II?
[11:15] <rjharrison_> Yep olimex is doing II now
[11:15] <rjharrison_> opps III
[11:15] <rjharrison_> Should be back here in 2 weeks
[11:16] <rjharrison_> and then we will have some real fun
[11:16] <rjharrison_> BTW SpeedEvil have you been to a launch?
[11:16] <SpeedEvil> No.
[11:16] <rjharrison_> You should come for one sometime
[11:16] <SpeedEvil> No car license ATM - and it's a bit far. ;/
[11:17] <rjharrison_> Where are you
[11:17] <SpeedEvil> Fife.
[11:17] <rjharrison_> Ahh
[11:17] <rjharrison_> That is far :)
[11:17] Action: SpeedEvil sighs at the insanity of fuel prices.
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> It's - AIUI - completely legal and cheaper to run your (diesel) car off sunflower oil bought at tesco.
[11:19] <rjharrison_> Yep
[11:19] <rjharrison_> Madness hey
[11:19] <SpikeUK> rjharrison_ hi!
[11:19] <rjharrison_> But it's more expensive if you paid the same tax on the sunflower oil
[11:19] <rjharrison_> Hi SpeedEvil
[11:19] <rjharrison_> Hi SpikeUK
[11:20] <rjharrison_> Sorry :)
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison_: indeed - however AIUI you don't need to pay tax on small quantity biofuel
[11:20] <SpikeUK> rjharrison - bit out of touch, did you get IcII back yesterday
[11:20] <gordonjcp> 5000 litres
[11:20] <rjharrison_> SpikeUK yep
[11:20] <rjharrison_> I have put a couple of pics up with promo removed
[11:20] <rjharrison_> http://www.robertharrison.org/images/icarus2/Launch4/
[11:21] <rjharrison_> I like this one http://www.robertharrison.org/images/icarus2/Launch4/IMG_0672-copy.jpg
[11:22] <SpikeUK> rjharrison_ excellent - try to chat later if ok?
[11:22] <rjharrison_> Sure
[11:22] <rjharrison_> I'm arround on and off till 1:30 pm
[11:22] <rjharrison_> Tidying up the data
[11:22] <rjharrison_> Will update track with clean data
[11:25] <SpikeUK> Thanks! It was quite exciting sat in a cellphone developers event at Imperial Coll tracking you and Icarus on my laptop ;-)
[11:25] <rjharrison_> Lol
[11:25] <rjharrison_> Yep something weird happened tracking
[11:26] <SpikeUK> DanRichman was great at setting up, and tracking
[11:27] <SpikeUK> Where did it end up in the end?
[11:27] <SpikeUK> You seemed to be miles away on the tracker
[11:28] <SpeedEvil> gordonjcp: 2500l I think - according to http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000205&propertyType=document
[11:28] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: oh, thought it was 5000
[11:28] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: "a lot", anyway
[11:29] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[11:29] <SpeedEvil> And I've yet to work out how I can use it in my petrol engine, as cider is lots more expensive than cooking oil :)
[11:33] <rjharrison_> About 10 miles from stanstead airort
[11:33] <rjharrison_> airport
[11:34] <rjharrison_> Not ideal but not bad.
[11:34] <rjharrison_> Notin the flight path
[11:40] <SpikeUK> rjharrison_ I was wondering how close it was going to get to Stanstead and wondering if it was going to cross runway
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[12:57] <rjharrison_> SpikeUK not too close thankfully
[12:58] <rjharrison_> There have been closer ones
[13:07] <SpikeUK> It was gripping stuff ;-)
[13:27] <rjharrison_> SpikeUK was for me too
[13:28] <rjharrison_> sorry just talking with rocketboy on the phone
[13:28] <SpikeUK> NP
[13:28] <rjharrison_> Going to have another launch soon
[13:28] <rjharrison_> Next good weather w/e
[13:29] <SpikeUK> Excellent! I should have a chance to try to receive
[13:29] <rjharrison_> Was daniel richman with you
[13:29] <rjharrison_> I was getting a log from him and myself
[13:30] <SpikeUK> Yup. I was chatting to Daniel here
[13:31] <SpikeUK> Several other peps on the side too.
[13:32] <rjharrison_> Cool it was a fun day out
[13:33] <rjharrison_> Have some nice video too after november 17th I will be able to put it all up
[13:34] <SpikeUK> Excellent! Were you doing all this on your own?
[13:35] <SpikeUK> <aside> Anybody any idea\ how to upload files to the UKHAS wiki http://ukhas.org.uk/ </aside>
[13:35] <rjharrison_> I had some help from some people who came to take pictures and video
[13:35] <rjharrison_> :)
[13:36] <rjharrison_> There is a link on the side somewhere to uload
[13:37] <SpikeUK> That's what I was expecting - but I'll be damed if I can see anything
[13:38] <rjharrison_> SpikeUK click on add image icon
[13:38] <rjharrison_> It will pop up a page which allows you to upload
[13:39] <SpikeUK> Got it - many thanks for that! Daniel recorded some raw audio that I want to upload -is that ok with you?
[13:41] <SpikeUK> Oh. Plan B - it seems that .wav files are forbidden ;-(
[13:42] <SpikeUK> .mp3 also
[13:44] <SpikeUK> ...let's try ogg - if that does not work then I'll have to put them on my own server - but that does seem clumsy.
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[14:38] <fuzzylugnuts> Hey
[14:40] <fuzzylugnuts> http://coyotefirecracker.selfip.com/weather.txt
[14:40] <fuzzylugnuts> I have the sparkfun weatherboard polled and parsed to a web page.
[14:41] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:41] <SpeedEvil> I guess it's dark.
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[14:42] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, its in my apartment at the moment
[14:42] <fuzzylugnuts> it has to be fairly bright to get off the 1023.
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[14:44] <SpikeUK> fuzzylugnuts Hey
[14:44] <fuzzylugnuts> Hey
[14:44] <SpikeUK> How's things?
[14:45] <fuzzylugnuts> Pretty good, working on some stuff as usual.
[14:45] <fuzzylugnuts> you>
[14:45] <fuzzylugnuts> *?
[14:47] <SpikeUK> Trying to upload an audio recording of some telemetry from RJH's mission from yesterday to the UKHAS wiki http://ukhas.org.uk/
[14:47] <fuzzylugnuts> how did that all go?
[14:48] <SpikeUK> OK I think. Went up, came down, and RJH got it back
[14:49] <fuzzylugnuts> THats good.
[14:50] <SpikeUK> I'm working on improving my BarCamp "Teddies in Space" presentation
[14:51] <SpikeUK> ..hence the audion clip
[14:51] <SpikeUK> "audion" = "audio"
[14:51] <fuzzylugnuts> um
[14:51] <fuzzylugnuts> what?
[14:56] <SpikeUK> Oh. OK. You remember the CUSF "Teds in Space" launch from last November - http://bit.ly/OGn1h ?
[14:56] <fuzzylugnuts> o_O
[14:56] <fuzzylugnuts> LOL
[14:56] <fuzzylugnuts> um, I do now
[14:56] <fuzzylugnuts> : )
[14:58] <SpikeUK> Well, I did a talk about this project, and HABs in general a a BarCamp in Brighton last month - http://www.barcampbrighton.org/
[14:58] <fuzzylugnuts> Ah, ok
[14:59] <fuzzylugnuts> much response?
[15:00] <SpikeUK> The talk went down quite well, and I'm considering doing a variant at http://barcamp.org/BarCampLondon7 and/or http://barcamp.org/BarCampManchester2
[15:01] <fuzzylugnuts> what is barcamp exactly?
[15:01] <fuzzylugnuts> oh, I see.. like an open conference
[15:02] <SpikeUK> That's it - a geekfest ;-)
[15:02] <fuzzylugnuts> do you have to notify the pizza delivery places early?
[15:02] <SpikeUK> You've been to one then ;-)
[15:03] <fuzzylugnuts> unfortunatly no
[15:03] <fuzzylugnuts> I don't think we ahve anything like that around here
[15:03] <SpikeUK> At Brighton we had 150ish pizzas between 80 peps on Sat night
[15:03] <fuzzylugnuts> lol
[15:03] <fuzzylugnuts> omg
[15:03] <SpikeUK> People we eating it cold from Sunday breakfast - eck!
[15:04] <SpikeUK> we = were
[15:04] <fuzzylugnuts> its best aged
[15:04] <fuzzylugnuts> well that all sounds pretty neat.
[15:04] <SpikeUK> ..but cold - shudder!
[15:04] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah
[15:05] <fuzzylugnuts> so whats the point of the presentation, then. Is there going to be more teddies in space?
[15:06] <SpikeUK> Probably not, buy I think there's some more peps interested in HABs
[15:07] <SpikeUK> There's a list of BarCamps at http://barcamp.org/
[15:07] <fuzzylugnuts> Ah, I see
[15:08] <SpikeUK> I can recommend it if you get a chance fuzzylugnuts
[15:08] <fuzzylugnuts> I see tehre is one in memphis
[15:09] <fuzzylugnuts> if there was one in knoxxville I'd go
[15:11] <SpikeUK> There seems to be quite a few in the US - are you in Tennessee?
[15:11] <fuzzylugnuts> yep
[15:11] <fuzzylugnuts> its a long skinny state so memphis is like 6 hours from me
[15:11] <SpikeUK> Yikes! Nashville too far?
[15:12] <fuzzylugnuts> thats about 2.5
[15:12] <SpikeUK> Oh. Looks like that didn't happen anyway
[15:13] <fuzzylugnuts> ah
[15:13] <fuzzylugnuts> I wouldn't imagine there are alot of geeks in this state
[15:14] <SpikeUK> I couldn't comment - I'll have to take your word for it ;-)
[15:14] <fuzzylugnuts> there used to be a big ballooning group in knoxxvile, but they disbanded a few years ago
[15:14] <rjharrison_> Hey SpikeUK I could meet you at barcampManchester
[15:15] <rjharrison_> If you decide to do a talk there
[15:15] <rjharrison_> not too far for me
[15:15] <rjharrison_> hi fuzzylugnuts
[15:15] <rjharrison_> A couple of edited pics from yesterday
[15:15] <rjharrison_> http://www.robertharrison.org/images/icarus2/Launch4/IMG_0672-copy.jpg
[15:15] <rjharrison_> http://www.robertharrison.org/images/icarus2/Launch4
[15:15] <fuzzylugnuts> hello : )
[15:16] <fuzzylugnuts> you found a white obelisk in space!? Egad!
[15:17] <SpikeUK> RJH! Thanks for pics. You are much better qualified to talk about HABs than me - I'll have to do matchbox tops or something ;-)
[15:17] <rjharrison_> I thought they were ment to be black :)
[15:17] <rjharrison_> SpikeUK it would be fun to do a double act. It's a fun topic
[15:18] <fuzzylugnuts> black was so 2001.
[15:18] <rjharrison_> Plus bringing a working payload can be fun
[15:18] <rjharrison_> lol
[15:18] <rjharrison_> :)
[15:18] <rjharrison_> it will be back in fashion in 2010
[15:19] <fuzzylugnuts> do you have pictures of your payload?
[15:19] <rjharrison_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/12/ArthurCClarke_2010OdysseyTwo.jpg
[15:19] <SpikeUK> Now that's a plan! We couls two presentations, one on each day. Teds in space on one, Icarus details on other
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> Icarus details - while in a large bear suit?
[15:19] <rjharrison_> An idea I'll leave it with you
[15:20] <rjharrison_> fuzzylugnuts it's icarus II the first 4 pics of this collection http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/sets/72157618814637849/
[15:21] <fuzzylugnuts> ok, thanks
[15:22] <fuzzylugnuts> man, thats cool. so simplistic.
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[15:27] <rjharrison_> fuzzylugnuts I like it simple
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[15:28] <rjharrison_> Though the next PCB will be a bit more fun.
[15:28] <fuzzylugnuts> Cool
[15:28] <fuzzylugnuts> where do you get them made up?
[15:29] <rjharrison_> http://www.robertharrison.org/svn/filedetails.php?repname=the-icarus-project&path=%2FIcarus+III%2Feagle%2FIcarus+III%2FIcarus.pdf
[15:29] <rjharrison_> http://www.olimex.com/
[15:30] <fuzzylugnuts> ah, ok
[15:30] <fuzzylugnuts> UK facility
[15:30] <fuzzylugnuts> I might try expressPCB at some point
[15:30] <rjharrison_> http://www.robertharrison.org/svn/filedetails.php?repname=the-icarus-project&path=%2FIcarus+III%2Feagle%2FIcarus+III%2FIcarus-brd.pdf
[15:30] <rjharrison_> No olmex is in Bulgaria
[15:31] <rjharrison_> Very good prices
[15:31] <fuzzylugnuts> Oh
[15:31] <fuzzylugnuts> Ok
[15:31] <rjharrison_> BTW SpikeUK feel free if you want knick any images off flickr for your talks
[15:33] <fuzzylugnuts> I really need to make up my trackers. It' just be the byonics microtrak-300 plastered on with the lassen IQ.
[15:33] <rjharrison_> It makes you feel happier when you lose them
[15:34] <rjharrison_> Just solder up another board
[15:34] <fuzzylugnuts> ah
[15:34] <fuzzylugnuts> if we lost a payload string, we'd loose about 2 to 3 grand of equipment
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[15:35] <fuzzylugnuts> probably closer to 2 depending what the researchers send up
[15:35] <SpikeUK> rjharrison_ Thanks for that! I just used the CUSF video http://bit.ly/DHuGs
[15:35] <rjharrison_> Ahh so you like my simple design :)
[15:36] <rjharrison_> about 120 pounds per payload
[15:36] <rjharrison_> 170 bucks these days
[15:36] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah, thats pretty good
[15:37] <rjharrison_> hey natrium_
[15:37] <rjharrison_> Ping
[15:38] <fuzzylugnuts> the very first balloons the group sent up were real simple, not even a camera, jus tracking stuff, but now we've expanded alot.
[15:38] <fuzzylugnuts> who's that in the video?
[15:39] <SpikeUK> That's the Cambridge guys
[15:40] <fuzzylugnuts> neat
[15:41] <SpikeUK> The video was made by the school
[15:41] <fuzzylugnuts> they did a pretty good job
[15:41] <rjharrison_> Yep that was good
[15:42] <rjharrison_> I got launch by luck yesterday
[15:42] <rjharrison_> Can make public till 17th november :(
[15:42] <fuzzylugnuts> haha
[15:43] <SpikeUK> rjharrison_ hope I did not compromise your cover here yesterday ;-)
[15:46] <SpikeUK> rjharrison_ Do you use Twitter?
[15:46] <fuzzylugnuts> ANSWER VERY CAREFULLY
[15:46] <SpikeUK> ;-)
[15:47] <SpikeUK> I find it useful - I'm http://twitter.com/tenbus_uk
[15:52] <fuzzylugnuts> erp, got to split. catch ya later
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[15:55] <SpikeUK> rjharrison_ Were you monitoring http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/ yesterday?
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[16:52] <Laurenceb> hi
[17:16] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/65458 <- just finished off our kitchen :P
[17:17] <Laurenceb> the ceiling/beams took ages
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:17] Action: SpeedEvil has been moving sandpaper.
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> ~60Kg
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> Part of the random sorting out of crap.
[17:18] Action: Laurenceb has almost that much sandpaper
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> neat
[17:18] <Laurenceb> 3M stuff is nice
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> This is _huuge_ belts from a local furniture factories skip.
[17:19] <Laurenceb> the tricky thing about the ceiling was getting the plaster off the beams
[17:19] <Laurenceb> the floor was completely rebuilt - those are reclaimed beams from an old barn
[17:20] <Laurenceb> the forground one is hollowed out and has a girder inside to take an upstairs wall
[17:20] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> I've been spending the last week or so filling bulk bags with random stuff.
[17:22] <SpeedEvil> Granite boulders, sandstone, gravel, sand, broken manmade composites (brick, cement, ...)
[17:23] <SpeedEvil> http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/
[17:24] <Laurenceb> is that you?
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> no - I'm not actually there.
[17:24] <Laurenceb> oh behind the camera :P
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/3876997967/ is brother.
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> Generally similar, though add beard, and 15Kg :/
[17:26] <Laurenceb> :P
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> I'm trying to subtract the 15Kg.
[17:31] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: you're over in Fife somewhere aren't you?
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> yes
[17:32] <gordonjcp> hmm, should have given you a shout last weekend when I was up at Jaycee in Glenrothes
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> Sunny fife!
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> Well - today :)
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> jaycee is an oddity.
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> I assume he is still rather large.
[17:33] <SpeedEvil> Rather large or about to keel over due to lard poisoning?
[17:33] <SpeedEvil> I know he was on a diet a while back
[17:35] <gordonjcp> looks smaller than he was last year when I was up
[17:36] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:36] <SpeedEvil> He used to have the dubious honor of being the largest person I'd seen in real life.
[17:36] <gordonjcp> shop's still *fucking* expensive
[17:37] <SpeedEvil> yeah - well, where else can you walk in and poke stuff
[17:37] <gordonjcp> true true
[17:38] <gordonjcp> they have the Trio TR-8400 that would go very nicely with my TR-7730
[17:38] <SpeedEvil> I used to be addicted to the secondhad bookshop next door, which shut after I stopped going.
[17:38] <gordonjcp> not sure I wanted it 45 quid's worth
[17:38] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/65462 <- thats about the same view taken just after the plastering was done
[17:38] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: I was after a 2m SSB rig, like maybe an IC290
[17:39] <gordonjcp> dude kept trying to get me to buy 2m FM rigs
[17:39] <gordonjcp> I work for a commercial PMR company, I'm up to my arse in VHF and UHF FM gear
[17:39] <SpeedEvil> At that point I could go into wh smiths - and have about 95% of the SF section.
[17:39] <SpeedEvil> Why 2m ssb/
[17:39] <SpeedEvil> ?
[17:39] <SpeedEvil> I thought that was bigger in the states
[17:40] <gordonjcp> interested in getting into moonbounce
[17:40] <gordonjcp> and also driving microwave transverters
[17:41] <gordonjcp> I'm moving house pretty soon, so I should be able to put up a tower
[17:41] <SpeedEvil> i was pondering low-power moonbounce.
[17:41] <SpeedEvil> Based on stupidly long spreading codes
[17:42] <Laurenceb> use 10mw :P
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> GPS synced.
[17:45] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: what, like jt4?
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> dunno. I mean something like a code a million long, with a chip rate of 1KHz.
[17:49] <Laurenceb> 1 bit/20mins
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[17:51] <Laurenceb> with 10mw :P
[17:52] <Laurenceb> hmm if you had a set of prn codes
[17:52] <Laurenceb> each lenght 1Mbits
[17:52] <Laurenceb> say 1024 orthoganal codes
[17:53] <Laurenceb> then you could transmit 10bits/20minutes
[17:53] <SpeedEvil> You trade signal for bit-error rate then
[17:54] <Laurenceb> yeah
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[18:28] <fuzzylugnuts> man what a nice day.
[18:55] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/65475
[18:55] <Laurenceb> thats my super simple n prize rocket design
[18:55] <Laurenceb> well the motor anyway
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> Where is the machinable ceramic
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> ?
[18:57] <Laurenceb> around the graphite throat insert
[18:57] <Laurenceb> between it and the alu alloy mount
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> ah
[18:58] <Laurenceb> then theres also the fuel grain mounting
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> epoxy?
[18:58] <Laurenceb> several books suggest latex or similar rubber compounds
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> sound reasonable
[18:58] <Laurenceb> to protect against uneaven burnthrough
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> higslow charring rubbery stuff of some form
[18:59] <Laurenceb> basically two stages of these
[18:59] <Laurenceb> with a balsa/kapton film nosecone and a deployable gyro
[19:01] <Laurenceb> you can get to maybe 88% fuel mass with this design
[19:01] <Laurenceb> which is fairly good, space shuttle SRB is about 86 IIRC, and the amateur rocketry motors are max 60%
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> Interesting.
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> yeah - amateur rocketry doesn't really tend to push the envelope at all
[19:02] <Laurenceb> of course shuttle SRB is steel
[19:02] <Laurenceb> some of the high performance motors, e.g. pegasus upper stage are over 95%
[19:02] Action: SpeedEvil remembers doing the numbers for range at which you can kill a shuttle with a sniper rifle.
[19:03] <SpeedEvil> It's not actually that short
[19:03] <Laurenceb> lol
[19:03] <Laurenceb> youd have to make the Cf end bulkheads
[19:03] <SpeedEvil> IIRC a shot at the SRBs as they ignite low-down.
[19:03] <Laurenceb> but most of the rest is quite easy to make
[19:04] <Laurenceb> just a lathe really
[19:04] <SpeedEvil> Punches a hole quite deep into the composition, which burns through
[19:04] <SpeedEvil> bulkheads aren't _that_ bad to make
[19:04] <SpeedEvil> Though admittedly I've only done them in fibreglass
[19:05] <Laurenceb> the first stage design for 10grams to orbit is about 60mm duiameter and 270mm lenght (for the tube)
[19:06] <Laurenceb> add another 90 or so for the nozzle
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> that's getting quite small
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> what's the GLOW?
[19:06] <Laurenceb> stage 2 about 35mm diameter, 140mm lenght
[19:06] <Laurenceb> 1.8Kg
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> what height are you assuming? 38-40km?
[19:06] <Laurenceb> 33Km
[19:07] <SpeedEvil> oh - latex
[19:07] <Laurenceb> yeah
[19:07] <Laurenceb> it actually doesnt help to go smaller and higher with polythene envelops
[19:07] <Laurenceb> as smaller motors have lower ISP
[19:08] <Laurenceb> I think its heat transfer to the engine walls
[19:08] <SpeedEvil> Also lower dwell tim
[19:08] <SpeedEvil> e
[19:08] <Laurenceb> and higher G
[19:08] <Laurenceb> for the max accel
[19:09] <SpeedEvil> silly fuel ratios do have that problem
[19:09] <Laurenceb> how do you mean?
[19:09] <SpeedEvil> I mean with 88
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[19:09] <SpeedEvil> % fuel, the accel at the end is pretty brutal
[19:09] <Laurenceb> yeah
[19:10] <SpeedEvil> I wonder about an intentionally regressive nozzle
[19:10] <SpeedEvil> throat
[19:10] <Laurenceb> with the 2nd stage, the "satellite" lower that quite a bit
[19:10] <SpeedEvil> to drop the chamber pressure and reaction rate
[19:10] <Laurenceb> yeah maybe
[19:10] <SpeedEvil> annoying complication if needed
[19:10] <Laurenceb> I'm not sure how far it can be dropped before becoming unstable
[19:11] <Laurenceb> but the off the shelf cesaroni motors burn at up to 10MPa
[19:11] <Laurenceb> wheras if they are using the standard AP formula, then they work fine at 2MPa
[19:12] <Laurenceb> and the test data seems to match with cesaroni classic propellant being normal AP/Al/HTBT formulation
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[19:15] <SpeedEvil> residence time would be boosted by high pressure
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> and go for a more complete burn in teeny motors
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[19:50] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/65486
[19:50] <Laurenceb> thats the deployable control moment gyro design
[19:50] <Laurenceb> it fits inside the second stage nozzle
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[19:53] <SpeedEvil> Why two motors?
[19:54] <fuzzylugnuts> There really was a cake.
[19:54] <Laurenceb> basically gives you azimuth and elevatino control
[19:56] <Laurenceb> first you spin down the gyro assembly to 1Hz rotation or less, then compute the azimuth and elevation of the stage 2 spn axis using the ralative timing of horizon and maximum solar irradiation using an input capture and some logic level signal generated from the opamp
[19:56] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right
[19:56] <Laurenceb> then you calculate the gyro speed required to get onto the correct rotation axis
[19:56] <SpeedEvil> I diddn't see that tehre was a second one in the plug
[19:57] <Laurenceb> then spin up the gyro, but not precisely
[19:57] <Laurenceb> so you end up causing a precession
[19:57] <Laurenceb> about the origional spin axis
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> fun
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[19:58] <Laurenceb> - not precisely = spin up the gyro and second stage motors so as to cause the rotational inertia != to the origional rotational inertia
[19:58] <Laurenceb> that causes some precession about the origional spin axis that you know
[19:59] <Laurenceb> then use ADC sample straight from the horizon and sun sensors
[19:59] <SpeedEvil> I see where you're coming from.
[19:59] <SpeedEvil> It all looks plausible.
[19:59] <Laurenceb> to find the outputs when you are lined up
[19:59] <SpeedEvil> the CF tubes lie along the rocket body I assume?
[19:59] <Laurenceb> you can find at what point you are lined up in the precssional rotation from timing
[19:59] <Laurenceb> then you setup some control loops
[20:00] <Laurenceb> and they fine tune the two motors to keep you spot on for the rest of the cruise to apogee
[20:00] <Laurenceb> yeah
[20:00] <Laurenceb> then unfolds
[20:00] <Laurenceb> to give you a nice gyro with a low mass
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> I'm nto sure if the rass helps - unless you're RPM limited
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> brass
[20:01] <Laurenceb> the fairing keeps it folded
[20:01] <Laurenceb> then centripetal accel will cause it to unfold when its no longer held in place
[20:01] <Laurenceb> yeah maybe just CF tubes
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> ah - right - this is inside a fairing - I forgot.
[20:02] <SpeedEvil> I was wondering about blowing open
[20:02] <Laurenceb> I was thinking two halves
[20:02] <SpeedEvil> hemicylinders?
[20:02] <Laurenceb> and a blow off titanium 5 alloy tip
[20:02] <Laurenceb> then centripetal accel causes the two halves to tly off
[20:03] <Laurenceb> yeah
[20:04] <SpeedEvil> So this assemblage pops out of at stage sep, lines the second stage up at apogee, and then fires the spun up rocket ?
[20:04] <Laurenceb> if you design it carefully with some nylon cord holding the two fairing halves together at the base and some little "pegs" going under the second stage, it can give the second stage a kick as it comes off
[20:04] <Laurenceb> to aid seperation
[20:04] <SpeedEvil> hopefully leading to the second stage going into orbit
[20:04] <Laurenceb> yes
[20:05] <Laurenceb> actually the pyro ignitier is powered by the nanosat
[20:05] <Laurenceb> onto of the second stage
[20:05] <Laurenceb> as only the sat has contact with ground control
[20:05] <Laurenceb> and only ground control knows when apogee is
[20:05] <SpeedEvil> this is cc* based radio?
[20:06] <Laurenceb> yeah
[20:06] <Laurenceb> then doppler shift fitting to the ballistic tragectory
[20:07] <SpeedEvil> multiple ground stations?
[20:07] <Laurenceb> I think it works with just one
[20:08] <Laurenceb> the nanosat would basically be a lipo cell, CC transceiver + 8051 and a maxim power amp
[20:08] <Laurenceb> then an 868MHz chip ant
[20:09] <Laurenceb> and pyro supplies to the stage 2 igniter and fairing seperator
[20:09] <DanielRichman> ping rjharrison_
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[20:09] Action: SpeedEvil ponders doing a slightly more serious 20g sat design.
[20:10] <swilly_> any of you guys know of a good regulator with a CGA 580 fitting for balloon filling?
[20:10] <Laurenceb> this super small design only does 10grams
[20:12] <Laurenceb> I think you could get the cost of this design down to £300/launch
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: yeah - not specifically this design.
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: this was my teeny spysat design.
[20:13] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: solar powered, magnetorquers, camera
[20:13] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, and telescopic lens
[20:13] <Laurenceb> of course you also have to make the spin up system to fit on the balloon
[20:13] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: that's much heavier
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: what's the first stage spinning at?
[20:14] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, what kind of spy sat is it without a telescopic lens?
[20:14] <Laurenceb> 50Hz or so
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: a low-res one.
[20:14] <DanielRichman> Pff. Screw the extra weight, it needs a telescopic lense
[20:14] <DanielRichman> or two
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: 50-100m resolution
[20:15] <DanielRichman> can it take a mugshot of someone on the deck of a boat in the arctic?
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: Data transfer is a _big_ problem. You can't easily drop a gigabyte back to the ground.
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: a megabyte even is tricky
[20:15] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, I'm afraid we're going to have to revoke your spysat status
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: what data rate were you looking at at apogee?
[20:16] <Laurenceb> data rate?
[20:16] <Laurenceb> dunno
[20:16] <Laurenceb> a few hundered bits/sec prob
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> hyeah - about what I was looking for
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> you don't get very much data out of that at - say - 5 min/pass
[20:17] <Laurenceb> itd prob be best to put an nprize sat into "beep beep beep" mode as soon as it seperated from the second stage
[20:17] <Laurenceb> so people could track it
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[20:19] <Laurenceb> but I dont have time/inclination to build it
[20:20] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, you'll never dominate the world with that attitude!
[20:21] <DanielRichman> step one: launch satellite; step two: world domination. You can do it
[20:22] <swilly_> i say you mount a dish w/servo on there. then you could get a point to point wifi link set up for those high res spy photos
[20:23] <swilly_> bonus points if you put a powerful laser on it too
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> swilly_: that's an utter bitch to do with a total mass of a gram.
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> Though I have looked at laser comms - which don't look _quite_ insane
[20:23] <swilly_> SpeedEvil: you just need a bigger launch platform
[20:24] <swilly_> it's worth it :)
[20:24] <SpeedEvil> swilly_: Indeed - it's near-trivial given a kilo sat.
[20:25] <DanielRichman> How heavy are the regulations on putting satellites into orbit?
[20:25] <DanielRichman> besides the rocket-must-dodge-aircraft whilst leaving the atmostphere....
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> Annoyingly.
[20:25] <DanielRichman> russia and the us managed to crash two satellites together, so...
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> For example, there is a 6000 pound application fee in the UK
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> just to kick off the process
[20:25] <sbasuita> rocket dodge aircraft?
[20:25] <sbasuita> surely not
[20:25] <sbasuita> think about how big the sky is
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> though you can dodge that if you can get it launched under the auspices of a university
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[20:26] <DanielRichman> ha
[20:26] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, ok, the deadline has been set
[20:26] <sbasuita> say what
[20:26] <sbasuita> wait let me wake up
[20:26] <sbasuita> ok go
[20:26] <rjharrison_> Yo edmoore
[20:26] <DanielRichman> rjharrison_,
[20:26] <DanielRichman> your launch yesterday
[20:26] <rjharrison_> Hey DanielRichman nice tracking
[20:27] <DanielRichman> ha. only uploaded 10sentences
[20:27] <DanielRichman> was quite a way away though.
[20:27] Nick change: rjharrison_ -> rjharrison
[20:27] <DanielRichman> what was the frequency it was broadcasting on?
[20:27] <rjharrison> 434.075
[20:27] <DanielRichman> k
[20:27] <DanielRichman> check your xml
[20:27] <rjharrison> Yep bit weird some how a prev launch has come through on the tracker
[20:27] <DanielRichman> <frequency>434.073.50</frequency>
[20:27] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, what deadline
[20:28] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, SpeedEvil said that you can dodge the £6000 fee if you launch under the auspices of a university
[20:28] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, o rite
[20:28] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, i thought this was relevant to our project
[20:28] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, has alex got the celotex yet?
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> Naah.
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> You can stay at university damn near forever.
[20:29] <DanielRichman> Hmm. Is it easier to land a payload on the moon or put it into orbit?
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> you mean orbit of the moon?
[20:29] <DanielRichman> no
[20:29] <DanielRichman> Landed
[20:29] <DanielRichman> 'cause then it doesn't need to do any work keeping itself up
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> orbit of the moon or land on the moon you mean
[20:29] <DanielRichman> land on the surface
[20:29] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, does it have to consist of one part after landing?
[20:29] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, say what?
[20:30] <SpeedEvil> you cannot have a stable orbit around the moon
[20:30] <Laurenceb> hmm
[20:30] <SpeedEvil> It is gravitationally 'lumpy'
[20:30] <Laurenceb> I was thinking launch from mexico
[20:30] <DanielRichman> I was thinking, since it's so difficult (?) to put something into orbit... Landing it on the moon,
[20:30] <DanielRichman> you don't need to keep it in orbit, just have it touchdown and broadcast
[20:30] <DanielRichman> /do whatever satellites do
[20:30] <Laurenceb> call it a balloon flight... launch from unclontrolled airspace
[20:30] <SpeedEvil> Moon is 2 or 3 orders of magnitude harder
[20:30] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: legally doesn't help
[20:30] <Laurenceb> have a mexican citizen launch it
[20:31] <swilly_> use a rockoon
[20:31] <swilly_> the balloon would fly it through FAA airspace
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: if you're in control of it anywhere in the world, you're liable to UK law - even if you're not in the UK at the time.
[20:31] <sbasuita> What is the legal barrier to putting stuff in space?
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> Like the sex tourism things.
[20:31] <Laurenceb> you dont have to be in control
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: the 'Outer Space Act' IIRC
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> or rather the secondary legislation round that.
[20:32] <sbasuita> Wasn't that about nobody could claim territory?
[20:32] <Laurenceb> theres a fine line, e.g. if you work on space related hardware
[20:32] <DanielRichman> Considering that you're going to declare independance anyway prior to taking over the world, you may as well skip the legalities
[20:32] <SpeedEvil> Basically you don't comply with the rules of launch in the UK, they have the right to kick your doors in.
[20:32] <Laurenceb> its got to be possible to dodge liability for the outer space act
[20:32] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: the launch legislation in the UK is quite old
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> Owing to us having no space program :/
[20:33] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, who needs a right to kick your doors in? They'll do that regardless
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> Anymore.
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[20:33] <Laurenceb> so if I build the hardware and post it to mexico
[20:33] <Laurenceb> theres no way I'm responsible
[20:33] <DanielRichman> What, and hope someone finds it and launches it?
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[20:34] <sbasuita> "The activities of non-governmental entities in outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty."
[20:34] <russss> has anyone been prosecuted under the outer space act?
[20:34] <Laurenceb> heh
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> I doubt it
[20:34] <Laurenceb> dont think so
[20:34] <DanielRichman> how many sats are actually launched per year?
[20:34] <russss> I wonder how many licenses have been granted under the outer space act.
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> I'd imagine low hundreds
[20:34] <DanielRichman> maybe the huge fee is just to justify the existance of a department, since they get hardly any requests?
[20:34] <russss> you could probably FOI request that
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> not through the UK though
[20:35] <Laurenceb> ok lets take an example, I do some work for NASA or whatever and build some hardware
[20:35] <Laurenceb> I dont have to get involved in the outer space act
[20:35] <Laurenceb> why is this different
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: you are not controlling the launch.
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> Actually - the act is overbroad
[20:35] <Laurenceb> exactly
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> it basically says - from memory - if you're involved in any way with a launch you need a licence
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> even when that would be ridiculous
[20:35] <Laurenceb> so youd get someone from Meixco or wherever to "control" the launch
[20:36] <russss> actually that's interesting. You would probably be in contravention of the outer space act if you sent one of those $4000 micro-satellites up. Even if you weren't launching it, you'd be operating it.
[20:36] <Laurenceb> ok if it says that it is rediculous
[20:36] <Laurenceb> and is already void as it broken all the time
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> for example the UK astronaut that went up on the shuttle would in principle need a launch license for the shuttle from the UK
[20:37] <Laurenceb> ok... I'm not a law expert
[20:37] <Laurenceb> but I'd say prosecution would be hard
[20:37] <SpeedEvil> Just because it's stupid and broken and not usually enforced is not a guarantee that prosecution will fail.
[20:37] <Laurenceb> if you were clever with your mamangement of the project
[20:37] Action: SpeedEvil is depressed about the stupid road-tax changes.
[20:37] <Laurenceb> of course there is the other option
[20:37] <russss> heh
[20:38] <Laurenceb> get in touch with BNSC and get them involved
[20:38] <Laurenceb> they may also pay for everything
[20:38] <SpeedEvil> Though I was surprised indeed to get a response form my local MP saying 'will get back to you' on sunday afternoon following emailing saturday night
[20:38] <DanielRichman> To be fair, if the BNP can get away with the near-ridiculous racism that they seem to manage, you can launch a sat with some legal dodging
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> Two things don't follow.
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> The law can be an ass.
[20:39] <caitlin> that seems amazing that outer space is closed
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> This doesn't mean it can't kick you fucking hard.
[20:39] <DanielRichman> true.
[20:39] <Laurenceb> of course that has the disadvantage you have to do everything completely by their rules wrt safety ect
[20:39] <Laurenceb> the BNP have a right to free speach
[20:39] <Laurenceb> *speech
[20:39] <DanielRichman> naturally. But are they inciting hatred?
[20:40] <russss> well, that's a bad comparison because the UK doesn't have a constitutional right to freedom of speech
[20:40] <DanielRichman> Also, any half decent lawyer can find the #highaltitude logs
[20:40] <Laurenceb> IMO incitement is daft
[20:40] <Laurenceb> lol
[20:41] <DanielRichman> at which point you may as well have done a "how you would have done it" novel
[20:41] <Laurenceb> oops in inciting people to break the outer space act
[20:41] <russss> lol
[20:41] <Laurenceb> *I'm
[20:41] <Laurenceb> now you see why incitement laws are daft
[20:42] Action: russss will send an FOIA request about this, if he can work out which government department to send it to
[20:42] <Laurenceb> you in the UK?
[20:42] <russss> yes
[20:42] <SpeedEvil> http://otakureview.today.com/2008/12/11/the-case-against-christopher-handley/
[20:42] <SpeedEvil> in the USA
[20:42] <Laurenceb> IMO BNSC are the poeple to talk to
[20:43] <SpeedEvil> russss: IIRC it's directly handled by the secetary of state. however
[20:43] <russss> yes. Well the Act mentions the Secretary of State
[20:43] <SpeedEvil> The full text of the law should hopefully be up by now
[20:43] <russss> but there are lots of secretaries of state
[20:44] <russss> and you have to choose which one to send a FOI request to.
[20:44] <Laurenceb> thats all pretty irrelivant IMO
[20:44] <russss> I'm just curious
[20:44] <Laurenceb> you need to talk to someone who has at least some experience
[20:44] <Laurenceb> thats why I suggested BNSC as a starting point
[20:45] <Laurenceb> otherwise you'll just come across as some nutcase/prankster
[20:45] <Laurenceb> whatever
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> Coming across as a nutter doesn't remove their FOIA responsibilities
[20:45] <Laurenceb> lol true
[20:49] <sbasuita> What's the worst that could happen if you just launched it?
[20:50] <DanielRichman> Shot down by a missile
[20:50] <russss> "A person committing an offence is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine and on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum."
[20:50] <DanielRichman> or that new laser that we know you're developing, obama, don't pretend
[20:50] <russss> it doesn't seem to mention what the statory maximum is.
[20:50] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, this just in: USA spends millions to destroy hobbyist satellite, DDOS attack at 6pm.
[20:50] <DanielRichman> Considering that the application fee is £6k, the statutory maximum is gonna be a hell of a lot more
[20:51] <russss> true
[20:52] <caitlin> how does that sugar rocket chap get round this? has he got permission?
[20:52] <Laurenceb> ok simple
[20:52] <russss> it does strike me that they don't define "Space" in this Act.
[20:52] <Laurenceb> set up as company registered in Mexico
[20:52] <russss> it's all a bit vague.
[20:52] <Laurenceb> or wherever
[20:52] <Laurenceb> then have yourself as an employee
[20:52] <DanielRichman> Oh, sorry guys! I thought you were referring to the *other* space, the one in my garden. Sorry.
[20:52] <Laurenceb> then you are exempt
[20:53] <Laurenceb> simple right?
[20:53] <russss> Laurenceb: don't think so. The act applies to people, as well as companies
[20:53] <DanielRichman> What happens when they change the law and backdate it?
[20:53] <sbasuita> Surely there is some law to prevent this
[20:53] <russss> so they could prosecute you personally
[20:53] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, backdating?
[20:53] <sbasuita> no, setting up do-nothing companies to bypass law
[20:53] <Laurenceb> russss: employees acting under direction of the company are exempt
[20:53] <Laurenceb> and if the company is registered abroad...
[20:54] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, but surely there must be some way for the company itself to get beaten
[20:54] <DanielRichman> oh right.
[20:54] <DanielRichman> Downside: Dodge the swine flu.
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> russss: the statutary maximum is defined in secondary legislation IIRC
[20:54] <Laurenceb> so comany X is setup abroad with direct ect from that contry
[20:54] <Laurenceb> then they employ you
[20:54] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, does that mean that you still have to go abroad to launch?
[20:54] <Laurenceb> and you do the real work
[20:54] <Laurenceb> yes
[20:54] <russss> oh yes, this is true.
[20:54] <Laurenceb> youd be crazy to launch in the UK
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> You also have to beware of technology transfer legislation
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> exporting rocket tech can get you into big trouble
[20:55] <Laurenceb> youd assemble in the launch contry
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> I mean exporting the technology
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> not the object
[20:56] <Laurenceb> woops I just posted my ideas online
[20:56] <Laurenceb> :p
[20:56] <Laurenceb> see when its simple stuff like this that you can read up on in any good university library...
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/fls/PressReleases/090429-02.html
[20:57] <russss> SpeedEvil: annoyingly statutelaw.gov.uk is missing some of the secondary legislation for that.
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> I found that last year
[20:57] <DanielRichman> It's also a bad idea to get yourself into government attention, the no fly lists...
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> the above is a conviction for exporting actual parts - but the tech is also not allowed
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> I don't know if hte UK has an analogous treaty to itAr
[20:58] <Laurenceb> sure, the US are very hard on this sort of thing
[20:58] <Laurenceb> I wouldnt look to the US to get any ideas
[20:59] <Laurenceb> the thing is you can do it with off the shelf high power rocketry motors
[20:59] <Laurenceb> thats pretty non dodgy
[21:00] <sbasuita> Just seek advice from the BNSC then
[21:00] <sbasuita> Instead of speculating
[21:00] <Laurenceb> exactly
[21:01] <Laurenceb> more importantly, they could probably help fund it
[21:05] <sbasuita> So I was thinking a basic wooden frame clad in celotex for our payload; what do you guys think?
[21:05] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: http://www.exportlawblog.com/archives/category/ddtc/page/4 search for inertial
[21:05] <Laurenceb> wooden frame?!
[21:06] <DanielRichman> to separate all the different bits
[21:06] <Laurenceb> sbasuita: surely celotex is pretty rigid
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> I recommend no less than 6*6 oak.
[21:06] <DanielRichman> or do you suggest just throwing them into a box
[21:06] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, I don't know
[21:06] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, it's 5cm thick
[21:06] <DanielRichman> it's rigid.
[21:06] <Laurenceb> I'd say it is
[21:06] <sbasuita> fair
[21:06] <sbasuita> we could just go for only celotex
[21:06] <sbasuita> tape all the circuitboards to the insides
[21:06] <DanielRichman> hmm. 5cm partitions?
[21:06] <DanielRichman> need some thinner card to partition bits
[21:06] <sbasuita> or make like a sandwhich
[21:06] <DanielRichman> nom nom.
[21:07] <sbasuita> Want everything nice and cosy
[21:07] <DanielRichman> need sine fian
[21:07] <DanielRichman> *foam
[21:07] <DanielRichman> btw, is there any chance of a huge static build up during the flight?
[21:07] <DanielRichman> would be a bit of a pain if the first person to touch it on landing gets fried
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> http://www.exportlawblog.com/archives/category/itar-creep interesting
[21:07] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, no, that would just be funny
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: nobodys been hurt yet.
[21:08] <sbasuita> Yet...
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: But there is a skeleton of a cow standing upright in a field in Kent.
[21:08] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, damn... you couldn't salvage any burgers?
[21:08] <rjharrison> DanielRichman if you catch it befor it lands I'll buy you a beer when you're 18
[21:09] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: ITAR is US
[21:09] <Laurenceb> kind of irrelivant
[21:09] <sbasuita> Catching it before it lands would be the most awesome thing I've ever done
[21:09] <rjharrison> It has been done befor
[21:09] <Laurenceb> yeah
[21:09] <rjharrison> Not by us
[21:09] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, we have been set a challenge
[21:09] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, does your dad drive fast?
[21:09] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, very fast
[21:09] <DanielRichman> goooood.
[21:09] <rjharrison> You'll see on the day.
[21:09] <Laurenceb> *crash*
[21:10] <rjharrison> Getting a pic of it in the sky befor landing is amazing
[21:10] <sbasuita> To be fair, if we both have the opportunity to catch it, dan's inferior height will mean I get the kudos :P
[21:10] <rjharrison> Catching it in your had is gold
[21:10] <rjharrison> lol
[21:10] <sbasuita> My dad will probably bring the video camera... we'll see
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> http://www.zupt.com/land.php
[21:11] <DanielRichman> we've got a video camera lurking about somewhere
[21:11] <DanielRichman> so it's all good
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: INS for real! :)
[21:12] <DanielRichman> gah. I hate it when you're about to click the X on a window, then another pops up, you hit that one, and have no clue what on earth it was
[21:13] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, write a patch for metacity that introduces a minimum click-on-X seperation time, obviously overriden by holding a meta-key
[21:13] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, oh wait
[21:13] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, you're takling about popups
[21:13] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, i was thinking about closing multiple things :P
[21:13] <Laurenceb> taling of which
[21:13] <DanielRichman> No, i think it might have been skype or pidgin
[21:13] <DanielRichman> not sure.
[21:13] <DanielRichman> perhaps i could have it log window closures to dmesg so atleast I know what it was
[21:14] <Laurenceb> my windows go transparent when the mouse isnt over
[21:14] <DanielRichman> compiz or metacity?
[21:14] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, why?
[21:14] <Laurenceb> think theres a setting for that... but its grayed out :-/
[21:14] <Laurenceb> compiz
[21:14] <DanielRichman> uninstall it.
[21:14] <DanielRichman> you don't nee dit.
[21:14] <Laurenceb> heh one option
[21:14] <DanielRichman> or the proprietary graphics driver we know you're using
[21:14] <Laurenceb> you know?!
[21:14] <DanielRichman> Tbf the only reason me and sbasuita got rid of it was because fglrx was memory leaking
[21:15] <Laurenceb> actually yes ATi
[21:15] <DanielRichman> (20MB every tmie you minmax a window!?)
[21:15] Action: Laurenceb has 8GB of RAM
[21:15] <sbasuita> Actually, i'm using fglrx
[21:15] <DanielRichman> 4GB here, but the anti-evil part of me told it to gtfo
[21:15] <sbasuita> compiz was the thing memory leaking
[21:15] <natrium42> sbasuita, sooo....
[21:15] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, no, Amar uses it on a Nvidia without problems
[21:15] <DanielRichman> and the extra memory was building up in the Xorg process
[21:16] <DanielRichman> just to mess you about
[21:16] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, obviously its a specific quirk
[21:16] <DanielRichman> yes
[21:16] <sbasuita> Anyway, I haven't checked the open source driver status in a while
[21:16] <sbasuita> definitely on its way
[21:16] <DanielRichman> ha.
[21:16] <DanielRichman> 12 months.
[21:16] <DanielRichman> atleast 18 before it's in universe, let alone main
[21:16] Action: natrium42 looks at sbasuita
[21:16] <DanielRichman> the open source driver for my card doesn't do 3d but everythign else is very nice.
[21:16] <Laurenceb> hang on.... are you two stallmanesque?
[21:17] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, no, I've got flash installed
[21:17] <DanielRichman> and I occasionally get reminded of GNU and chuckle
[21:17] Action: Laurenceb kicks stallman
[21:17] <sbasuita> natrium42, :S
[21:17] <DanielRichman> GNU are hilarious
[21:17] <DanielRichman> GNU. GNU. GNU?
[21:17] <DanielRichman> Linux.
[21:17] <sbasuita> Not really, it's just that the closed source drivers are a bit rubbish.
[21:17] <natrium42> GNU+Linux plz
[21:18] <DanielRichman> No
[21:18] <Laurenceb> Stallman is a massive hypocrite
[21:18] <DanielRichman> Linux is a good name
[21:18] <DanielRichman> GNU.
[21:18] <DanielRichman> GNU?
[21:18] <DanielRichman> Stallman is hilarious
[21:18] <Laurenceb> he talks about open source then tried to force his name over it
[21:18] <Laurenceb> then comes up with the GPL
[21:18] <DanielRichman> Hurd is hilarious
[21:19] <Laurenceb> which is about the most restricitve thing ever
[21:19] <DanielRichman> isn't he american?
[21:19] <Laurenceb> beer ware license FTW
[21:19] <Laurenceb> yes
[21:19] <DanielRichman> Torvalds seems to run things well
[21:19] <DanielRichman> He's not american
[21:19] <DanielRichman> CORRELATION?
[21:20] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ
[21:20] <sbasuita> I license under GPL
[21:20] <sbasuita> Haven't a huge amount of thought into it tbh
[21:21] <Laurenceb> I'd say free BSD to be serious
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> GPL2 is - IMO - largely sane
[21:21] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, do you have a database of relevant yet funny Youtube links?
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> you don't need it
[21:21] <Laurenceb> its called googlwe
[21:21] <DanielRichman> meh
[21:21] <Laurenceb> - google videos
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> just setup a youtube search accellerator - enter 'y RMS' into the titlebar, ...
[21:22] <DanielRichman> but you must have seen it before to know what to look for
[21:22] <Laurenceb> http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=richard%20stallman&oe=utf-8&rls=com.ubuntu:en-GB:unofficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv#
[21:22] <Laurenceb> yes it was on digg
[21:22] <DanielRichman> Richard Stallman == Santa?
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: or have heard about it
[21:22] <DanielRichman> gives you free presents
[21:22] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, tru
[21:23] <Laurenceb> oh my god
[21:23] <Laurenceb> http://uk.video.yahoo.com/watch/5115399
[21:23] <Laurenceb> two nutcases at once
[21:25] <DanielRichman> haven't heard so much bs in one go for a while
[21:26] <DanielRichman> rofl
[21:26] <DanielRichman> So in effect these two systems have no security at all.............. against that company?
[21:26] <DanielRichman> We know Windows has a backdoor?
[21:26] <DanielRichman> what is this?
[21:27] <DanielRichman> All three systems concerned have automatic updates that I bet you approve without checking the source code changed
[21:27] <DanielRichman> any one of three CEOs could feed you trojans
[21:27] <DanielRichman> well one of the three isn't a CEO, but whatever.
[21:28] <SpeedEvil> A lot of eyes look at each bit of code that hits the kernel
[21:28] <SpeedEvil> Of course - a subtle security hole and a blatent system("bash") are a bit different
[21:29] <sbasuita> The kernel wouldn't be the easiest place to get malicious code in
[21:29] <sbasuita> You don't really even need kernel-level code to wreak havok
[21:30] <sbasuita> But then really, how easy is it to craft 'subtle' security holes?
[21:30] <SpeedEvil> If you're linus - quite.
[21:31] <sbasuita> Do you mean in terms of hacker-ability or management position?
[21:31] <SpeedEvil> both
[21:33] <sbasuita> I guess one could make the argument that somebody who has worked to such a high level wouldn't have malicious intent
[21:33] <sbasuita> But it is an interesting concept
[21:33] <DanielRichman> Create popular program, insert virus, upload to revu
[21:33] <DanielRichman> ???
[21:33] <DanielRichman> botnet.
[21:33] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, if it is popular, people will notice
[21:33] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, not before it is too late
[21:33] <DanielRichman> subdue the people who notice
[21:33] <DanielRichman> ddos their blogs!
[21:34] <sbasuita> Leading to a streisand effect
[21:34] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, I bet we could have put some very nasty code in cifer
[21:34] Action: DanielRichman uses the awesome bar
[21:34] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, and nobody would have read it
[21:35] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, exactly. On first run as normal user, inserts an alias sudo='...' line into .bashrc, waits for r00t, continues to pwn system
[21:35] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, after checking the date
[21:35] <DanielRichman> ha
[21:36] <DanielRichman> Wherever you look there are large corperations that can screw you over.
[21:37] <DanielRichman> but it's harder in a corp since everyone in the chain of command has to be corrupted to achieve something nasty
[21:37] <sbasuita> And, on that bombshell, I leave you for today
[21:37] <DanielRichman> and in foss it's harder since your code can be scrutinised
[21:37] <DanielRichman> bye sbasuita
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[21:38] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: not quite.
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: Everyone in a chain of review has to be incompetant or corrupted
[21:38] <DanielRichman> Ha :P
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: And this assumes that the chain of review is sanely setup in the first place
[21:38] <DanielRichman> Every corp *can* screw you over, everyone uploading foss can mess you around, the guy down the road who has a gun license can shoot you. That's life
[21:39] <DanielRichman> What's new?
[21:39] <DanielRichman> This channel is getting dangerously off topic
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> That's not new.
[21:40] <DanielRichman> :P
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[21:41] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, so any luck with FM mode decoding?
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> I haven't looked at it.
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> Today I have been:
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> Sawing down several hawthorne trees at the 5m level.
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> Moving gravel.
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> Sawing up galvanised roofing sheet to make gutters for my shed, painting same.
[21:42] <DanielRichman> And you have been involved in an intense online debate about software freedom
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> grinding up said trees to compost
[21:43] <DanielRichman> Sounds like a big day.
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> unknotting 600m of rope
[21:43] <DanielRichman> bigger...!
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> So I'm a bit exhausted and not really up to doing much constructive thought.
[21:44] <DanielRichman> Fair. I vaguely understand FM as in the audo-radio mode, but not how one might reconstruct USB
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> you don't
[21:50] <SpeedEvil> If the reciever did not have an AC coupling on the output, then the output would simply be a (probably reduced) copy of the input waveform input to the radio
[21:50] <SpeedEvil> a rs232 stream
[21:50] <SpeedEvil> However - it's probably more like
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> -------/---\----/----/----\
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> with a bit-edge being a step - limited to 3KHz or whatever by the internal filters - and a slow decay due to the 300hz or so lower cutoff
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> probably mostly decaying back to 0 before the next polarity change
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[23:21] <rjharrison> nights all
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