highaltitude.log.20090923

[00:01] <natrium42> kk
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[00:41] <rjharrison_> time for bed
[00:41] <rjharrison_> long day tomorrow
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[04:55] <ybit> what's the process of creating a runway for personal use?
[04:58] <natrium42> interesting question
[04:59] <ybit> SpeedEvil: you seem to know all ;)
[04:59] <natrium42> ybit, in what country?
[04:59] <ybit> natrium42: usa
[05:00] <natrium42> pfft, big country
[05:01] <SpeedEvil> As I understand it for small aircraft, it may be as simple as mowing a strip on your property
[05:01] <SpeedEvil> If you're out in the country anyway
[05:02] <natrium42> there are airstrips without countrol tower anyway
[05:02] <natrium42> so i doubt there are any regulations for a private runway in unrestricted airspace
[05:07] <natrium42> ybit, isn't there some amendment to guarantee privat runways to citizens? :P
[05:07] <ybit> natrium42: i don't, i'm asking you guys/gals :)
[05:09] <ybit> don't +know
[05:09] <natrium42> dunno any licensed pilot here, we mostly do unmanned flights
[05:09] <natrium42> :P
[05:09] <ybit> SpeedEvil: i have over 60 acres to work with
[05:09] <ybit> i feel that's plenty for a runway
[05:10] <ybit> natrium42: oh, in that case, how do you get a payload attached to rockets?
[05:10] Action: ybit wants to send a satellite into orbit among other things
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[05:12] <ybit> among other things, i.e., a small device which escapes earth's gravitational pull, er not orbiting but still sending back data
[05:12] <ybit> i know there are unis which do this
[05:14] <natrium> ybit, this might be interesting --> http://spacefellowship.com/2009/08/01/interorbital-syatems-tubesat-personal-satellite-kit/
[05:14] <natrium> of course, it's only on paper atm :S
[05:15] <natrium> the current option is to hitchhike with commercial launches
[05:15] <natrium> but it's not cheap
[05:15] <SpeedEvil> for out of earth orbit I'd be surprised if you could do it for $5m.
[05:16] <natrium> SpeedEvil, sometime they need to add mass to make balance the payload rotationally
[05:16] <natrium> that's how those cheap microsatellites get launched sometimes
[05:16] <ybit> natrium: meh, i'd much rather build my own device.. and i'm sure i can do it for much cheaper than $8k
[05:16] <SpeedEvil> ybit: You absolutely can't.
[05:17] <natrium> ybit, the building isn't the problem, tha launching is ...
[05:17] <natrium> *the
[05:17] <ybit> it == building a small device to orbit earth
[05:17] <SpeedEvil> ybit: At least for out of earth orbit.
[05:17] <SpeedEvil> The device building is _trivial_.
[05:17] <ybit> yeah, that's what i'm finding out, it's rare that you can attache your own payload to rockets :-\
[05:17] <SpeedEvil> An iphone will work just fine.
[05:17] <ybit> right
[05:17] <SpeedEvil> Though you'd need an external comms system of some form
[05:18] <SpeedEvil> and it would overheat/freeze rapidly
[05:18] <ybit> no probs at all, it's getting on that rocket
[05:18] <ybit> maybe if i affiliate with some uni?..
[05:19] <ybit> seems to be the only option
[05:19] <SpeedEvil> That's teh other problem.
[05:19] <SpeedEvil> Yes - in principle you can get ridealongs at nominal costs.
[05:19] <ybit> guess i'll have to contact the fda on the personal airstrip tomorrow
[05:19] <SpeedEvil> In practice you need to spend a _hell_ of a lot of time doing it.
[05:19] <SpeedEvil> I think the FDA will be very very confused.
[05:19] <ybit> whoops, :P
[05:19] <SpeedEvil> Unless you plan to make it a suppository.
[05:20] <natrium> rofl
[05:21] <ybit> 23:14 < SpeedEvil> for out of earth orbit I'd be surprised if you could do it for $5m.
[05:21] <ybit> really?
[05:21] <ybit> how do you figure
[05:21] <SpeedEvil> nobody at all will let you ride-along with significant home-designed propellant systems.
[05:22] <SpeedEvil> You have to buy them - and even then the number of people willing to fly a device with a rocket on is low.
[05:22] <SpeedEvil> Which will probably mean you need to buy a commercial launch.
[05:22] <SpeedEvil> Those are not cheap.
[05:23] <SpeedEvil> If you decide to go the DIY route, you will need _lots_ of development, but in principle it could be cheaper than $5m.
[05:23] <SpeedEvil> But lots of people have failed.
[05:23] <ybit> 23:20 < SpeedEvil> nobody at all will let you ride-along with significant home-designed propellant systems.
[05:23] <ybit> because they don't want my diy stuff to fsck with the successful flight of the rocket?
[05:24] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[05:24] <SpeedEvil> The tiniest chance that you will screw up a - say $100m launch - ...
[05:24] Action: ybit needs to look into diy rocket launches then :)
[05:26] <ybit> i know that's millions of dollars, but it seems to be the only way i'm going to get my own damned device into space
[05:28] <SpeedEvil> For something out of earth orbit, and able to communicate - say a payload of a kilo - you're looking at many tons on the ground.
[05:28] Action: ybit wants a rundown of costs for launching a rocket into space
[05:29] <ybit> this would be difficult to find from commercial companies i'm guessing
[05:29] <SpeedEvil> look up google-groups for sci.space.policy
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[05:39] <ybit> long-term way for reducing these costs as well?
[05:39] <ybit> space elevator to the moon then launch from the moon?..
[06:09] <ybit> hmm, attach an object with a propellant to a high altitude weather balloon?
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[10:58] <Laurenceb> http://store.diydrones.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=KT-MPXV5004DP-01 <- I dont get why they arent using a preamp with this
[11:03] <Laurenceb> when I work it out I get <12lsb for ~10m/s
[12:35] <Laurenceb> I think some of the sensortechnics sensors would be a better choice
[12:41] <Laurenceb> guess the noise is a few lsb so you can average out, but it seems a bit crippled
[12:42] <SpeedEvil> lsb? It's analog
[12:43] <Laurenceb> but goes into a 10 bit adc
[12:43] <SpeedEvil> ah.
[12:43] <SpeedEvil> you mean the 3.9pA/bit
[12:54] <Laurenceb> http://docs.google.com/View?id=ddjmqgw3_43gm6gvggf#Appendix_4_Hardware_functional_8604350313544273
[12:54] <Laurenceb> it looks pretty impressive
[12:54] <Laurenceb> like the gui
[12:55] <Laurenceb> I'm wondering if you replaced the xbee with 434Mhz chipcon transceivers
[12:56] <Laurenceb> but the rogallo still has a lot going for it for balloon launch, as its so stable
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> it sucks so bad it's hard to get it into an aerodynamically undesired position
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> As long as you're not putting in massive control inputs
[13:00] <Laurenceb> its not that bad
[13:00] <Laurenceb> I got L/D of 4.5
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> Yes - I mean compared to 'proper' airframes that might get 7-10 or more
[13:01] <Laurenceb> I was experimenting to see how aggressive you could make the control loop
[13:01] <Laurenceb> and managed to flip one upside down
[13:02] <Laurenceb> but it was taking crazy control inputs yes
[13:03] <SpeedEvil> There is a big tradeoff between passive stability and performance alas.
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[14:01] <Laurenceb> http://www.sensortechnics.com/index.php?fid=300&fpar=YToxOntzOjQ6InBjaWQiO3M6MjoiNzciO30%3D&isSSL=0&aps=0&blub=43439c12ea6d2a58008de7cb808dccad good but expensive
[14:02] <Laurenceb> from the drift spec in the datasheet it appears they use a different preamplifier design across the range
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[17:31] <guysoft42> hi all, i want to launch a weather balloon and take photographs of near-space. how do i start? and what is the radius of coverage it can be in?
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[17:42] <SpeedEvil> radius of coverage?
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> You could do worse than looking at the wiki
[17:43] <guysoft42> oh hi SpeedEvil
[17:43] <guysoft42> SpeedEvil, what wiki?
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> the one in the topic?
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> wiki.ukhas.org.uk
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[17:48] <guysoft42> SpeedEvil, ok, ill have a look
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> specific questiong - no problem tho
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> s
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[18:20] <FIReun> has anyone come across a link for amateur high altitude balloon telescopes?
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> Most people are just flying cameras at best
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> edmoore here has flown a star-tracker experiment - but that was not done with his amateur hat on
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> Telescopes are a couple of orders of magnitude harder than cameras.
[18:22] <FIReun> oh sure
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> You've got to have a much larger balloon, a stabilised platform, ...
[18:22] <FIReun> but there are plenty of overachievers out there
[18:22] <FIReun> and of course the best shots are straight up, and that pesky balloon is in the way! (:
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[21:29] <hallam> hi folks
[21:30] <hallam> SpeedEvil / Laurenceb: if you think you might want a GN3Sv2, get it now from sparkfun, they have 3 left and there's a good chance that there will be no more produced
[21:32] <SpeedEvil> If I had the $399, I'd put it to better use :0
[21:32] <SpeedEvil> :)
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> thanks tho
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> hmm.
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> ft2232 - USB2 FIFO with 4K onboard buffer.
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> I wonder what in reality I can stream at.
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> without any stalls
[21:48] <hallam> I was looking into that
[21:48] <hallam> the annoying thing is that it's master only
[21:48] <hallam> so it's unsuitable for use with GPS front ends
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> master only?
[21:49] <hallam> the fifo
[21:50] <hallam> it can present as various sorts of parallel interfaces
[21:50] <hallam> but the clock must be sourced by the 2232
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> that's not how I read it
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> You just setup the databyte, then strobe _WR
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[22:07] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ftdichip.com/Documents/DataSheets/DS_FT2232H_V206.pdf
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> See page 26
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> transmit and recieve fifos, and you strobe rd_ or wr_ to put data in or out
[22:09] <hallam> oh
[22:09] <hallam> hm
[22:09] <hallam> I'll have to look into it more
[22:09] <hallam> but I was intending to use it in a synchronous way
[22:10] <hallam> gotta go, hot air balloon lesson early tomorrow
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[22:15] <DanielRichman> aargh. Why doesn't eagle have the atmega168 :X
[22:16] <DanielRichman> oh ok pin compatible with the ~48
[22:16] <DanielRichman> what on earth? there's an atmel folder, an avr folder
[22:16] <DanielRichman> and a search for 168 didn't find the one bueried in the latter
[22:16] <DanielRichman> -.-
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[22:21] <jiffe> so for the cutdown device, generally this is placed above the parachute?
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> yes
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> If you place it below you tend to get harder landings for some reason nobodies figured out.
[22:22] <jiffe> hmm, I see
[22:23] <jiffe> well I can put the cutdown device below the parachute and still allow the parachute to operate
[22:23] <jiffe> I'm just wondering about the line running to it, is that fed through the center of the chute, or around it?
[22:24] <jiffe> both seem to have their disadvantages
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> through is probably easier.
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[22:25] <SpeedEvil> It's dramatically easier to have a parachute that starts out inflated
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> with sticks to hold it open
[22:27] <jiffe> or a fan
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> ?
[22:27] <jiffe> or a chute made of rigid material
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> Fans won't work well at 4mB and -55C
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> a bit of nylon, a couple of bits of bamboo, and you're done
[22:28] <jiffe> so I haven't really looked at parachutes yet, is it common for the center to have an opening?
[22:30] <SpeedEvil> it can make it more stable.
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[22:38] <jiffe> cool
[22:39] <jiffe> well I got batteries on the way, once I have a weight I'll probably be picking one up
[22:39] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[22:49] Action: Laurenceb back
[22:49] <Laurenceb> ooh
[22:49] <Laurenceb> maybe I should buy them all
[22:54] <Laurenceb> hmm
[22:54] Action: Laurenceb checks bank balance
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[22:58] <natrium42> lool
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[23:47] <fuzzylugnuts> Heyyyyyyyyyy
[23:49] <natrium42> yyyyyyyyyyyyo
[23:50] <fuzzylugnuts> whats shakin?
[23:51] <natrium42> organizing everything for my new commercial product
[23:51] <fuzzylugnuts> Sounds exciting
[23:51] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm drooling over the phidget
[23:52] <fuzzylugnuts> er, the 8/8/8 board with a 6 port usb hub
[23:52] <natrium42> link plz
[23:53] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.trossenrobotics.com/p/phidgets-888-with-usb-hub.aspx
[23:54] <fuzzylugnuts> I hope to hook that to the overo+summit
[23:56] <natrium42> neato
[23:56] <natrium42> what do you intend to do with it?
[23:56] <fuzzylugnuts> fly it
[23:57] <natrium42> :)
[23:57] <natrium42> it looks a bit heavy
[23:57] Action: natrium42 recommends a custom PCB
[23:57] <fuzzylugnuts> eh, thats ok. most my payloads push 5kg
[23:58] <fuzzylugnuts> the goal of my ballooning stuff has shifted to providing a nearly universal experiment platform
[23:59] <fuzzylugnuts> so people can send thier stuff up and be able to control/read thier experiment, while I simply supply the launch and recovery
[23:59] SpeedEvil (n=user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: "Leaving."
[23:59] <natrium42> whoops, gotta run off
[23:59] <natrium42> sorry
[23:59] <fuzzylugnuts> laters
[00:00] --- Thu Sep 24 2009