highaltitude.log.20090920

[00:04] GeekShado_ (n=Antoine@198.207.192-77.rev.gaoland.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> In conjunction with our VTOL consultants we feel that we can make the Martin Jetpack significantly safer than any Jetpack yet built.
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> Again.
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> Also - http://www.martinjetpack.com/faqs.aspx
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> isn't the stability the pendulumn fallacy?
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> Also - no fucking way I'd consider using it without feet supports of some form.
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> In case of landing unfortunately.
[00:25] <SpeedEvil> It looks like it might have signifcantly better aerodynamics when travelling going backwards
[00:43] SpeedEvil1 (n=user@212.183.134.65) joined #highaltitude.
[00:44] SpeedEvil (n=user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: Nick collision from services.
[00:44] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[01:15] Laurenceb (n=laurence@host81-154-154-237.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[01:21] SpeedEvil (n=user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: "Leaving."
[01:22] SpeedEvil (n=user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) joined #highaltitude.
[01:40] SpeedEvil (n=user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: "Leaving."
[01:40] SpeedEvil (i=1000@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) joined #highaltitude.
[02:34] GeekShadow (n=Antoine@reactos/tester/GeekShadow) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)
[03:26] natrium42 (n=natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[04:14] natrium42 (n=natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude.
[05:46] natrium42 (n=natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[06:45] natrium42 (n=natrium4@173.32.154.131) joined #highaltitude.
[08:44] natrium42 (n=natrium4@173.32.154.131) left #highaltitude.
[09:27] Hiena (n=Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) joined #highaltitude.
[09:35] GeekShadow (n=Antoine@reactos/tester/GeekShadow) joined #highaltitude.
[10:57] DanielRichman (n=daniel@unaffiliated/danielrichman) joined #highaltitude.
[12:09] jatkins (n=jatkins@79-76-15-80.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) joined #highaltitude.
[12:09] jatkins (n=jatkins@79-76-15-80.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) left irc: Client Quit
[14:20] <rjharrison_> PING DanielRichman
[14:20] <DanielRichman> pong rjharrison_
[14:21] <rjharrison_> Hi
[14:21] <DanielRichman> Hi
[14:21] <rjharrison_> Him back on with testing the prototype of Icarus II
[14:21] <rjharrison_> III
[14:21] <DanielRichman> ooh
[14:21] <rjharrison_> and tyoically the uSD card is failing
[14:21] <DanielRichman> :(
[14:21] <rjharrison_> I'm getting to 6 log_state_readsuper_d
[14:21] <DanielRichman> what kind of failing?
[14:22] <DanielRichman> is it the same card as before?
[14:22] <DanielRichman> or a new card
[14:22] <rjharrison_> New card :)
[14:22] <rjharrison_> uSD in uSD holder
[14:22] <DanielRichman> same hardware as before though
[14:22] <DanielRichman> have you written a few 0x00 to the first few bytes?
[14:22] <rjharrison_> No lastime was SD
[14:22] <DanielRichman> ahok
[14:23] <rjharrison_> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdc bs=10M count=1
[14:23] <DanielRichman> sudo but yeah
[14:23] <rjharrison_> am root :)
[14:23] <DanielRichman> like a ninja!
[14:23] <DanielRichman> anyway - what happens when it gets to state 6?
[14:24] <rjharrison_> Tried 3 cards and even went back to proto type and SD card and they all seems to be timing out on 6
[14:24] <rjharrison_> Basically I dont think that it's reading correctly
[14:24] <DanielRichman> that's weird
[14:24] <rjharrison_> I assume there is some kind of check
[14:25] <DanielRichman> so something is failing
[14:25] <DanielRichman> what has changed?
[14:25] <rjharrison_> I'v wiggled every thing
[14:25] <rjharrison_> Good question
[14:25] <rjharrison_> Card possibly
[14:25] <DanielRichman> but you said you tried the prototype card... strange
[14:25] <DanielRichman> how do you know it is getting to 6?
[14:25] <rjharrison_> The out put
[14:26] <DanielRichman> you have a serial link?
[14:26] <rjharrison_> Shall I pase some
[14:26] <rjharrison_> Oh yess
[14:26] <DanielRichman> I assume that it is getting to some point and then stopping
[14:26] <rjharrison_> Wouldn't run it any onter way
[14:26] <rjharrison_> no it goes to 8 and then ??
[14:26] <rjharrison_> one sec
[14:26] <DanielRichman> I'd love to have some serial dump
[14:27] <rjharrison_> ok just runnnig
[14:30] <rjharrison_> http://pastebin.com/m719206bb
[14:30] <rjharrison_> DanielRichman every thing else is working now
[14:30] <DanielRichman> nice, what's on the board?
[14:30] <rjharrison_> so when this works i'm sending off the pcb
[14:32] <rjharrison_> temp (int/ext), diff pressure sensor, relative humidity, pyro cutdown, PWM for servo control, camera trigger circuit, Pyro monitoring
[14:32] <DanielRichman> what servos?
[14:32] <rjharrison_> and uSD
[14:32] <rjharrison_> futaba
[14:32] <DanielRichman> does the dump just stop there?
[14:32] <rjharrison_> Yep
[14:32] <DanielRichman> ok that's weird
[14:32] <rjharrison_> and nothing on the card
[14:32] <rjharrison_> ie no writes
[14:35] <DanielRichman> that's really strange though... 'cause it looks like everything is ok then it just stops...
[14:35] <DanielRichman> and the card that we know for certain worked before doesn't work any more?
[14:36] <DanielRichman> can you pastebin your log.c? quickly?
[14:38] <rjharrison_> yep
[14:39] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[14:39] <rjharrison_> http://pastebin.com/m67712122
[14:41] <DanielRichman> Why on earth does the loop stop there... that's impossible
[14:42] <DanielRichman> there must be atleast one more line... or maybe the chips browning out or something
[14:42] <DanielRichman> *chip's
[14:43] <rjharrison_> Oh i'll try again
[14:44] <rjharrison_> FF FF 0A 00 02 00 01
[14:44] <rjharrison_> FF FF 0A 00 02 00 02
[14:44] <rjharrison_> 00 FF 0A 01 00 00 00
[14:44] <rjharrison_> My last three lines
[14:44] <rjharrison_> I think they are the same
[14:45] <DanielRichman> 0A is case log_state_writecheck_super:
[14:45] <DanielRichman> the state before is 0A 00 02
[14:45] <DanielRichman> which means it is in wait mode
[14:46] <DanielRichman> then it receives 0x00; terminating the wait mode. That sets _mode (0x02) to 0x00. So it falls through to the select statement
[14:46] <DanielRichman> it's received the 0x00 successfully so it sets _substate to 1 :
[14:46] <DanielRichman> case log_state_writecheck_super:
[14:46] <DanielRichman> case log_state_writecheck_data:
[14:46] <DanielRichman> /* Expected Response: 0x00, 0x00 */
[14:46] <DanielRichman> if (c == 0x00)
[14:46] <DanielRichman> {
[14:46] <DanielRichman> if (log_substate == 0)
[14:46] <DanielRichman> {
[14:46] <DanielRichman> log_substate = 1;
[14:46] <DanielRichman> }
[14:46] <DanielRichman> [...]
[14:46] <DanielRichman> SPDR = 0xFF;
[14:46] <DanielRichman> break;
[14:46] <DanielRichman> so it sets SPDR before breaking, so the loop should continue
[14:47] <DanielRichman> yet it just stops
[14:47] <DanielRichman> and still no data is written, which is even stranger
[14:47] <DanielRichman> has the card got enough power?
[14:48] <rjharrison_> 3.253v
[14:48] <DanielRichman> The thing I don't understand is... even if one of us has made a silly mistake, typo, connection, it should create an error
[14:48] <DanielRichman> there is no error - it just stops
[14:49] <rjharrison_> I have just popped a 470uF Cap on the power rails near it ut not differece
[14:49] <rjharrison_> but
[14:49] <rjharrison_> hum
[14:49] <rjharrison_> Ok let me play for a while
[14:49] <rjharrison_> I'll report back
[14:49] <DanielRichman> ok. Sorry I couldn't be of any help
[14:49] <DanielRichman> you might want to check the SS rail
[14:49] <rjharrison_> Thanks for your tim
[14:49] <rjharrison_> I wil
[14:49] <rjharrison_> l
[14:50] <DanielRichman> or have the send_debug_stuff (or wahtever it was called) hexdump a few registers
[14:50] <rjharrison_> Yep
[14:50] <DanielRichman> I remember something about the SPI cutting out if the SS pin goes high etc. (but it should be a LOW OUTPUT anyway)
[14:50] <rjharrison_> I'm pulling it high through 68kR
[14:51] <DanielRichman> the SS pin?
[14:51] <rjharrison_> Yep
[14:51] <DanielRichman> interesting
[14:51] <DanielRichman> low = selected, high = deselected... the AVR should pull it low (output)
[14:51] <rjharrison_> I'll pull it out and see if it makes a diff
[14:51] <DanielRichman> k
[14:54] <rjharrison_> DanielRichman can you paste a working debug file easily
[14:54] <DanielRichman> rjharrison_, yes, I think so
[14:54] <DanielRichman> one second
[14:54] <DanielRichman> (maybe two).
[14:54] <rjharrison_> :)
[14:58] <DanielRichman> http://pastebin.com/m49078813
[14:58] <DanielRichman> it's in a slightly different format to yours
[14:58] <DanielRichman> but
[14:58] <DanielRichman> it's like this:
[14:58] <DanielRichman> (status dump before) (received character) (transmitted character) (status dump after)
[14:59] <rjharrison_> COol
[14:59] <rjharrison_> thanks for that
[15:00] <DanielRichman> where status dump is (state, substate, mode, timeouta, timeoutb)-(attempt no. (the code repeats ~30 times for debugging), character returned from get_char)
[15:00] <DanielRichman> ignore the random 03 on the firs tline
[15:00] <DanielRichman> that's before pullups came on
[15:00] <DanielRichman> also note that it read a 00 00 04 00 'cause i'd already written to it once
[15:01] <rjharrison_> IS it typical for 06 to go through log_state_readsuper_d till 01FF
[15:02] <DanielRichman> 06 has to read a whole 512 byte block
[15:02] <rjharrison_> IS it typical for 06 to go through log_state_readsuper_d till 01FF
[15:02] <rjharrison_> Ahh ok
[15:02] <DanielRichman> it goes to 0202 iirc because that's 512 + 2 byte checksum
[15:02] <DanielRichman> Here's the bit where yours stops:
[15:02] <DanielRichman> 0A00020001-0200 FF FF 0A00020002-0200
[15:02] <DanielRichman> 0A00020002-0200 00 FF 0A01000000-0200
[15:02] <DanielRichman> 0A01000000-0200 00 FF 0B00000000-0200
[15:02] <DanielRichman> 0B00000000-0200 FF FF 0C00010000-0200
[15:02] <DanielRichman> 0C00010000-0200 FF 58 0C01010000-0200
[15:02] <rjharrison_> That makes sense
[15:02] <DanielRichman> 0C01010000-0200 FF 00 0C02010000-0200
[15:02] <DanielRichman> it's all in hex ;)
[15:06] <rjharrison_> This is weird even the old SD card doesn't work but slightly difference log AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH
[15:06] <rjharrison_> Right I'l get the bugger
[15:08] <DanielRichman> same microcontroller (?) same code (? well, there was about 5 versions of that file flying around, maybe one change got lost...) same hardware (?) yet it now doesn't work?
[15:10] <rjharrison_> do you have a copy of the latest working version with debug
[15:10] <rjharrison_> Perhpas I should try that do you think?
[15:12] <DanielRichman> there's a couple of differences between my "working version" and yours due to hardware - I can try and cook one up
[15:12] <DanielRichman> did you try running the non-debug version?
[15:20] <DanielRichman> rjharrison_, try this one: http://pastebin.com/d37b4c6fa
[15:20] <DanielRichman> it has no debugging in it
[15:21] <DanielRichman> but it's my latest live-version
[15:22] <DanielRichman> and this is log.h: http://pastebin.com/m10dd005a
[15:31] <DanielRichman> ping rjharrison_
[15:34] <rjharrison_> Opps sorry
[15:34] <rjharrison_> Debugging
[15:35] <DanielRichman> no worries; thought you were lost in it so I pinged you ;)
[15:37] <rjharrison_> Weird
[15:37] <rjharrison_> This is so not working
[15:39] <DanielRichman> what a pita.
[15:39] <rjharrison_> WTF it's working on the SD card now
[15:39] <rjharrison_> Hump
[15:40] <rjharrison_> For no reason other than wiggling wires
[15:40] <DanielRichman> I _hate_ it when that happens
[15:40] Xenion (n=robert@p579FC512.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[15:52] <rjharrison_> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
[15:52] <rjharrison_> It works now on the uC
[15:53] <rjharrison_> What a pisser
[15:53] <rjharrison_> no real reason
[15:53] <DanielRichman> "break glass in case of electronics messing you about badly" -> ejector seat
[15:54] <rjharrison_> I think it's the uSD card that was causing the top at 0A it's the same with this card on both systems
[15:54] <rjharrison_> The card that worked on the SD converter then worked in the uC slot too
[15:54] <rjharrison_> I need to get on with some DIY
[15:55] <rjharrison_> DanielRichman you about later?
[15:55] <rjharrison_> about 7pm ish
[15:55] <DanielRichman> rjharrison_, I think so, will try to eb
[17:07] Simon-MPFH (n=simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[17:13] DanielRichman (n=daniel@unaffiliated/danielrichman) left irc: "Leaving"
[17:14] sbasuita (n=sbasuita@unaffiliated/drebellion) joined #highaltitude.
[17:20] Etharooni (n=Etharoon@72.244.200.141) joined #highaltitude.
[17:29] DanielRichman (n=daniel@unaffiliated/danielrichman) joined #highaltitude.
[18:10] DanielRichman (n=daniel@unaffiliated/danielrichman) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[18:37] DanielRichman (n=daniel@unaffiliated/danielrichman) joined #highaltitude.
[18:51] DanielRichman (n=daniel@unaffiliated/danielrichman) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[18:54] natrium42 (n=natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude.
[19:10] jatkins (n=jatkins@79-76-15-80.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) joined #highaltitude.
[19:11] jatkins (n=jatkins@79-76-15-80.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) left irc: Client Quit
[19:22] kleinjt (n=kleinjt@tarsonis.dhcp.rose-hulman.edu) joined #highaltitude.
[19:24] DanielRichman (n=daniel@unaffiliated/danielrichman) joined #highaltitude.
[19:31] <rjharrison_> Hey DanielRichman
[19:31] <DanielRichman> hi rjharrison_
[19:31] <rjharrison_> I'm just going to put the SS pullup back and make sure it works
[19:31] <DanielRichman> ok
[19:31] <rjharrison_> I'm sure I got the 50K value off the uSD arduino board
[19:34] <DanielRichman> mmm
[19:38] forrestv (n=forrestv@unaffiliated/forrestv) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[19:38] <rjharrison_> Right testing
[19:39] forrestv (n=forrestv@unaffiliated/forrestv) joined #highaltitude.
[19:52] GeekShadow (n=Antoine@reactos/tester/GeekShadow) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)
[20:06] <rjharrison_> DanielRichman ICARUS III prototype
[20:06] <rjharrison_> http://www.robertharrison.org/images/various/prototype.jpg
[20:07] <rjharrison_> This is a close up of the uSD hack http://www.robertharrison.org/images/various/smd-uSD-hack.jpg
[20:07] <DanielRichman> rjharrison_, what a beast
[20:07] <DanielRichman> how dose the usb camera trigger work?
[20:09] <DanielRichman> rjharrison_, I've got to run, one of my friends wants me to beat them at Team Fortress 2 - I take it the sd card now works?
[20:09] <rjharrison_> yep thanks
[20:09] <DanielRichman> ok, cool, I'll be around
[20:09] DanielRichman (n=daniel@unaffiliated/danielrichman) left irc: "Leaving"
[20:09] <rjharrison_> het SpeedEvil
[20:09] <rjharrison_> hey
[20:10] <rjharrison_> hey natrium42
[20:12] edmoore (i=836f0142@gateway/web/freenode/x-csdportbqrxarevq) joined #highaltitude.
[20:12] <rjharrison_> Hi edmoore
[20:12] <edmoore> hi rj
[20:13] <rjharrison_> Hows it going
[20:13] <edmoore> hacking into ex-f1
[20:13] <edmoore> for badger2 to control
[20:13] <rjharrison_> oh
[20:13] <rjharrison_> cool
[20:13] <rjharrison_> I have a pic for you
[20:13] <rjharrison_> 2 secs
[20:14] <rjharrison_> edmoore http://www.robertharrison.org/images/various/prototype.jpg
[20:14] <rjharrison_> prototype
[20:15] <edmoore> awesome
[20:15] <edmoore> like it
[20:15] <rjharrison_> Best of all it all works
[20:15] <edmoore> :)
[20:16] <rjharrison_> The s/w is not finished but I know I can talk to / control everything
[20:16] <rjharrison_> Time to send off the brd file and I'll work on the s/w whilst I wait
[20:17] <edmoore> good luck
[20:17] <edmoore> tented vias
[20:17] <edmoore> nice thick and logical silkscreen
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> hey
[20:18] Action: SpeedEvil is currently attaching his scope to his DSL line.
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> And wishing that he had a spectrum analyser.
[20:18] <rjharrison_> Oh whats tented vias I'll look into that
[20:19] <SpeedEvil> tented vias are vias that are made in middle eastern PCB fabs that are in tents.
[20:19] <SpeedEvil> Or more sensibly, it's to keep solder out of a via
[20:19] <rjharrison_> lol, now I know
[20:20] <rjharrison_> SpeedEvil here is my prototype of icarus III http://www.robertharrison.org/images/various/prototype.jpg
[20:20] <edmoore> tented vias also really help stop accidental chorts
[20:20] <edmoore> especially if you route under chips
[20:20] <SpeedEvil> Neat.
[20:21] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[20:21] <rjharrison_> Yep, I have lost an iQ due to accidental short
[20:21] <rjharrison_> Hoping SMD will go along way to stop that in the future
[20:21] Laurenceb (n=laurence@host81-154-154-237.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[20:21] <Laurenceb> hi
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> hi
[20:23] Action: SpeedEvil relogs.
[20:23] SpeedEvil (i=1000@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: "Leaving."
[20:26] natrium42 (n=natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
[20:32] <Laurenceb> http://www.space.com/common/media/video/player.php?videoRef=SP_090916_Armadillo
[20:33] <rjharrison_> my weekends work http://www.robertharrison.org/images/various/IMG_0087.JPG
[20:34] natrium42 (n=natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude.
[20:34] <Laurenceb> whats it going to be?
[20:34] <natrium42> who, me?
[20:34] <natrium42> an astronaut
[20:35] <Laurenceb> lol ok
[20:35] SpeedEvil (n=user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) joined #highaltitude.
[20:36] <Laurenceb> rjharrison_: what is it?
[20:37] <natrium42> :P
[20:37] <natrium42> Laurenceb, any launches planned?
[20:37] <Laurenceb> yeah as soon as I can hitch a ride
[20:54] SpeedEvil1 (n=user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) joined #highaltitude.
[21:00] SpeedEvil (n=user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: Nick collision from services.
[21:00] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[21:03] <rjharrison_> Laurenceb sorry had to dash it's the foundations for the green house I'm building
[21:03] <Laurenceb> ah cool
[21:03] <rjharrison_> Just to show i can do more than sit on my arse
[21:03] Action: Laurenceb has a greenhouse full of furniture
[21:03] <Laurenceb> heh
[21:03] <rjharrison_> natrium42 did you see the prototype?
[21:03] <rjharrison_> hehe
[21:05] RobertB (n=robert@p579FCEA0.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[21:06] <natrium42> rjharrison_, link?
[21:14] fuzzylugnuts (n=hush@c-68-34-212-42.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) joined #highaltitude.
[21:14] <fuzzylugnuts> Hey
[21:15] <fuzzylugnuts> I got a sweing machine : )
[21:22] Xenion (n=robert@p579FC512.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)
[21:30] Simon-MPFH (n=simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) left irc: "Leaving"
[21:31] <fuzzylugnuts> I figured it would be neat to make up some of that multi layer insulation
[21:31] natrium (n=alexei@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude.
[21:40] Hiena (n=Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) left irc: "Toons.hu webchat"
[21:47] edmoore (i=836f0142@gateway/web/freenode/x-csdportbqrxarevq) left irc: Ping timeout: 180 seconds
[21:48] rjharrison (n=rharriso@80.176.172.227) joined #highaltitude.
[21:48] <rjharrison> opps
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> MLI is useless at normal pressures
[21:49] rjharrison_ (n=rharriso@80.176.172.227) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[21:49] <rjharrison> natrium42 , natrium http://www.robertharrison.org/images/various/prototype.jpg
[21:49] <rjharrison> Soory bit slow
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> you need to get to actual space-like pressures - where mean free path exceeds the distance between the layers.
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> Which means small fractions of a millibar.
[21:50] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison: seem to work?
[21:54] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil this is differential pressure sensor
[21:54] DanielRichman (n=daniel@unaffiliated/danielrichman) joined #highaltitude.
[21:54] <rjharrison> or did i miss something
[21:54] <rjharrison> hey DanielRichman
[21:54] <rjharrison> I have found the F'ing problem
[21:55] <rjharrison> it was the sd card
[21:55] <SpeedEvil> fuzzylugnuts: I figured it would be neat to make up some of that multi layer insulation
[21:55] <SpeedEvil> I looked at making up some MLI vacuum panels for my house insulation.
[21:55] <SpeedEvil> I came to the conclusion that it would be very silly.
[21:56] <SpeedEvil> IIRC 8mm ply, with foil liner glued on, with spacers, and about 25mm overall depth.
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> Needs continual pumping though.
[21:59] <fuzzylugnuts> : 3
[21:59] <rjharrison> hi fuzzylugnuts
[22:00] <fuzzylugnuts> hellooo
[22:00] <fuzzylugnuts> got your stuff pretty well sorted, rj?
[22:01] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: a japanese company was developing that concept
[22:01] <Laurenceb> using sealed glass units and aerogel spacers
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I was thinking of fairly simple DIY nothing really complex.
[22:01] <fuzzylugnuts> just as long as the panels didn't have to walk up stairs
[22:01] <Laurenceb> like double galzing panels
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: plywood, with foil lam, and wood spacers.
[22:02] <Laurenceb> foam based insulation seems to have more or less reached the limit of whats easily possible
[22:02] <Laurenceb> and it ends up rather think
[22:02] <Laurenceb> *thick
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[22:02] <Laurenceb> theres is a multifoil for home insulation
[22:03] <Laurenceb> usies mylar and fibreglass
[22:03] <SpeedEvil> It's generally really really oversold though.
[22:03] <rjharrison> fuzzylugnuts yep getting there did you see the prototype
[22:03] <Laurenceb> but the test data is disputed by building control
[22:03] <fuzzylugnuts> rjharrison: on the bradboard?
[22:03] <Laurenceb> so you can install it legally
[22:03] <SpeedEvil> If it doesn't work in a hot-box test it's a complete lie IMO.
[22:04] <SpeedEvil> And it's a really trivial test to do.
[22:04] <Laurenceb> yeah they used a mock up roof
[22:04] <Laurenceb> and came up with a huge argument about why hot box was invalid
[22:04] <Laurenceb> "tri-iso super 10" IIRC
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> And if their argument was true - it could be used with conventional insulation too
[22:06] <Laurenceb> british gypsum insulated plasterboard was the best I could find
[22:06] <Laurenceb> thermal resistivity wise
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> Kingspan is at .02W/m/K IIRC
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> Or celotex
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> which was about the best I saw.
[22:06] <Laurenceb> its about twice as good as polystyrene foam
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> My ebay fibreglass was .032 - normal stuff is .04
[22:07] <Laurenceb> we used british gypsum and xtratherm
[22:07] <Laurenceb> xtratherm is cheap and good enough
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> I'm about to start out insulating my room for the winter.
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> :/
[22:08] <Laurenceb> for where we had internal steel and timber framing
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> Pissed off at the grants for stuff that are available.
[22:08] <Laurenceb> that takes the weight of some of the old concrete floors and part of the back wall + roof
[22:08] <Laurenceb> yeah its annoying
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> heat pumps - air source ones - are available that would actually cut my emissions - and also bills - considerably.
[22:09] <Laurenceb> we got a grant for the entire project but the house was being brought back into use
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> But I can't qualify for a grant as they would not be professionally installed.
[22:09] <Laurenceb> yeah heat pumps are cool
[22:09] <Laurenceb> I wonder I could get a grant for an experimental renovation to evaluate different technologies and control systems
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> I relised looking at my electricity tarrif closely that if you get to using quite a little energy.
[22:10] <Laurenceb> theres so many different solutions its hard to work out the optimum solution to different housing types
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> Then electricity + heatpump is lots cheaper than gas per Kwh
[22:10] <Laurenceb> they use air source heat pumps on some of the building at oxford uni
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> As the initial rate of gas is quite high
[22:11] <Laurenceb> air con style usints retrofitted to central heating systems
[22:11] <SpeedEvil> Until you hit 2400KWh
[22:11] fuzzylugnuts (n=hush@c-68-34-212-42.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) left irc: "packing for yet another trip"
[22:12] <Laurenceb> Im not convinced by the normal solution to "green" water heating
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> solar-thermal?
[22:12] <Laurenceb> solar heating tubes into a big tank with immersion backup
[22:13] <Laurenceb> in this climate your using electric too much
[22:13] <Laurenceb> and thats wasting over 50% of the energy
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> I really want a single tube to play with
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> I mean yes - 20 tubes are 300 quid ish.
[22:14] <Laurenceb> wow not bad
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> But one would be great just to get actual hard numbers.
[22:14] <Laurenceb> they are very effictive
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> ebay
[22:14] <Laurenceb> I saw some at CAT
[22:14] sbasuita (n=sbasuita@unaffiliated/drebellion) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[22:14] <Laurenceb> water was at ~50C in heavy cloud
[22:15] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Evacuated-Tube-Solar-Heat-Panels-Northants-or-Lancs_W0QQitemZ330360148005QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home_Garden_Hearing_Cooling_Air?hash=item4ceaffd025&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
[22:15] <SpeedEvil> forex
[22:16] <Laurenceb> thing is they dont heat the water when you want it
[22:16] <Laurenceb> night in winter
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> yeah,
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> I was looking at somethign similar to the above.
[22:17] <SpeedEvil> But using a damn huge thermal store.
[22:17] <SpeedEvil> ~1 ton.
[22:17] <Laurenceb> he thats the way
[22:17] <SpeedEvil> I really want some small heat pumps.
[22:18] <Laurenceb> I was reading about someones experience in south UK with thermal tube heating
[22:18] <Laurenceb> in summer the polyethylene glycol boiled off
[22:18] <Laurenceb> I wonder if you could stick a stirling engine on the coolant loop
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> One 5Kw or so output going from a ground-source to 30-35C. To underfloor and a massive heatstore.
[22:19] <Laurenceb> yeah
[22:19] <Laurenceb> I wonder how well an underground heatstore works
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> And then another daisy-chained onthis going 35-70C or so.
[22:20] <SpeedEvil> But you can't get them easily at sane prices.
[22:20] <SpeedEvil> (for hot water)
[22:20] <Laurenceb> where would the solar thermal go?
[22:20] <SpeedEvil> Solar in addition to this feeding into whatever resovoir was best
[22:20] <Laurenceb> ok
[22:20] <SpeedEvil> So if it was direct sun with high output temps, it goes into the high temp store.
[22:21] <Laurenceb> water resevoirs?
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> If it's indirect sun, it goes into the low temp
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[22:22] <Laurenceb> hmm solar thermal tubes maybe beat large windows for heat gain
[22:22] <Laurenceb> certainly more controllable
[22:22] <Laurenceb> and reasonably cheap
[22:24] <Laurenceb> large low emmisivity triple glazed windows arent cheap either
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> nope.
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> Triple glazed I don't think are relevant in the UK.
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> Unless you've got stupid areas.
[22:30] <Laurenceb> I was going to say stirling engines for heat pumps
[22:30] <Laurenceb> but something more fridge style is probably better
[22:31] <Laurenceb> http://www.bravomamas.com/milfnextdoor/malina-milfnextdoor/lesbian-milfs/
[22:32] Laurenceb (n=laurence@host81-154-154-237.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) left irc: "The day microsoft make something that doesnt suck is the day they make a vacuum cleaner"
[22:34] Laurenceb (n=laurence@host81-154-154-237.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[22:34] <Laurenceb> ok a nutcase just nicked my laptop
[22:35] <Laurenceb> ignore whatever was posted
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> :/
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> get it back?
[22:35] <Laurenceb> yes
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> you just quit
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> A controller is also very useful if you wish to use PV power. The most effective method is to use the photovoltaic panel to maintain charge on a 12-volt car battery and to power the pump and controller from that battery. This set up gives the best performance from your solar water panel without consuming any mains power.
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> nutter
[22:36] <Laurenceb> hes my firend
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> I've seen these so often.
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> The 'not use any mains power' I mean - and it's insane.
[22:39] <SpeedEvil> If solar-pv doesn't make sense for your main electricity needs it doesn't make sense for powering you solar-thermal panel pump
[22:45] GeekShadow (n=Antoine@reactos/tester/GeekShadow) joined #highaltitude.
[22:51] DanielRichman (n=daniel@unaffiliated/danielrichman) left irc: "Leaving"
[22:54] RobertB (n=robert@p579FCEA0.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: "Verlassend"
[23:20] SpeedEvil1 (n=user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) joined #highaltitude.
[23:28] GeekShadow (n=Antoine@reactos/tester/GeekShadow) left irc: "The cake is a lie !"
[23:37] SpeedEvil (n=user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: Connection timed out
[23:39] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[00:00] --- Mon Sep 21 2009