highaltitude.log.20090916

[00:20] <forrestv> Laurenceb, pong
[00:20] <Laurenceb> hi
[00:21] <forrestv> Laurenceb, why'd you say ping?
[00:21] <Laurenceb> oh yeah the attitude code
[00:22] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:4_state_extended_kalman_filter_in_matlab
[00:22] <Laurenceb> if(abs(x_p*z_one+z_p*z_three)>0.000000000001)%jumps throug the quadrants in the x, z plane
[00:22] <Laurenceb> thats a big fudge
[00:22] <Laurenceb> well...
[00:23] <Laurenceb> basically you have to account for rounding errors
[00:23] <Laurenceb> I suspect there is a nicer way to do that
[00:25] <forrestv> hmm, i haven't really tried that code yet
[00:26] <Laurenceb> http://www.ublox.com/en/u-blox-6.html omg ublox6
[00:26] <Laurenceb> just when I'd got a ublox5
[00:28] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:29] <Laurenceb> ardupilot is using the ublox5 now
[00:29] <Laurenceb> looks like they get good results
[00:32] <forrestv> hmm, is that the only gps chip that can output the raw gps pseudoranges? i've been looking for that
[00:33] <Laurenceb> most can
[00:33] <Laurenceb> lassen iq , sirf and ublox can
[00:33] <forrestv> hmm, i couldn't find anything for sirf a while ago
[01:10] <Laurenceb> yeah IMO sirf isnt really best for this sort of thing
[01:11] <Laurenceb> its designed for cars ect really
[01:11] <forrestv> hmm, it seems that none of the common ublox can output raw data
[01:11] <forrestv> you need a special premium version
[01:11] <forrestv> that isn't normally sold i think
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[01:11] <Laurenceb> I have ublox5 H
[01:11] <Laurenceb> http://store.diydrones.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1 they sell some very useful stuff now
[01:12] <Laurenceb> when that site started it was rather noobish
[01:37] <fuzzylugnuts> soooooooo teeeeempppppteeeddd
[01:37] <fuzzylugnuts> overo.... summit... aaaaaarg
[01:40] <Laurenceb> heh yeah
[01:40] <Laurenceb> I like the devboard, but its dspic :(
[01:40] <Laurenceb> the theory stuff is interesting
[01:41] <Laurenceb> theyve fudged it a _lot_
[01:41] <Laurenceb> but it works
[01:41] <Laurenceb> I'd like to improve the treatment of wind data
[01:43] <Laurenceb> with pitot tube, three gyros, three axis accel and gps you should be able to estimate the wind as well
[01:43] <Laurenceb> IIRC their code does do gyro bias compensation
[01:44] <Laurenceb> and the accel compensation using speed and turn rate is clever
[01:46] <Laurenceb> gtg cya
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[01:46] <fuzzylugnuts> was he talking to someone?
[01:46] <kichimi> i dont know
[01:46] <fuzzylugnuts> weird.
[01:46] <kichimi> oh man i am so looking forward to getting the bits for my payload
[01:47] <kichimi> as soon as i pay for this damn parking ticket
[01:47] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah?
[01:47] <fuzzylugnuts> what all are you getting?
[01:47] <kichimi> rephrase that?
[01:47] <fuzzylugnuts> what items are you accumulating
[01:48] <kichimi> bifferboard, gps, phone, various cables and batterys and building a box when i get round to going to the scrapyard and get some aluminium
[01:49] <kichimi> oh and i need to build a board for radio
[01:49] <fuzzylugnuts> bifferboard... interesting
[01:49] <kichimi> why?
[01:49] <kichimi> i mean, its lesser specced than a gumstix, cheaper and seems to suit my needs
[01:49] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah, I've just never seen one before
[01:49] <kichimi> lol
[01:50] <kichimi> http://sites.google.com/site/bifferboard/
[01:51] <fuzzylugnuts> Neat
[01:51] <kichimi> listening to Temptation by Heaven 17
[01:51] <kichimi> addictive song
[01:52] <kichimi> so where are you based, fuzzylugnuts
[01:52] <fuzzylugnuts> EVERYWHERE
[01:52] <fuzzylugnuts> us
[01:52] <kichimi> niice
[01:53] <kichimi> theres a remote control rocket and plane shop near me
[01:53] <kichimi> im going to see what i can do about batterys in my lunch break tmorrow
[01:53] <fuzzylugnuts> LOL
[01:53] <fuzzylugnuts> perfect
[01:54] <kichimi> im beginning to see a pattern emerging in your replies :P
[01:54] <fuzzylugnuts> I've got a thing for batteries, if you would like any suggestions
[01:54] <kichimi> yes
[01:55] <kichimi> light, 5v supplying around 200mA for around 5 hours
[01:55] <fuzzylugnuts> I'd go with the energizer lithiums
[01:55] <kichimi> okay
[01:56] <kichimi> and also, does the voltage multiply when i put them in series or in paralell
[01:56] <fuzzylugnuts> if you are looking for rechargeable, the LiFePO4 chemistry is top notch
[01:56] <fuzzylugnuts> the voltage adds in series
[01:56] <kichimi> does ampage muliply at all?
[01:57] <fuzzylugnuts> no, it only adds when you put the cells in parrallel
[01:57] <kichimi> sweet
[01:57] <kichimi> so
[01:57] <kichimi> to get my desired ampage and voltage i need a complex series of paralell batteries
[01:57] <kichimi> parallel*
[01:58] <fuzzylugnuts> if all your looking for is ~5v at 200ma draw, 4 AA lithiums is all you need
[01:59] <kichimi> nice
[01:59] <kichimi> now i need to see what the power requirements for a USB hub are
[01:59] <kichimi> hopefully around the same
[01:59] <kichimi> id need 8 batteries?
[02:00] <fuzzylugnuts> there are a few important things in choosing a battery, capacity, voltage, and maximum current draw
[02:00] <fuzzylugnuts> you can find these on spec sheets from the manufacturer.
[02:00] <kichimi> okay
[02:01] <fuzzylugnuts> http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf
[02:01] <kichimi> okay you really do have a think for batteries
[02:01] <kichimi> thing*
[02:01] <fuzzylugnuts> its nice to
[02:02] <fuzzylugnuts> oh
[02:02] <fuzzylugnuts> yes
[02:02] <fuzzylugnuts> : )
[02:03] <kichimi> AA lithium are better then
[02:03] <fuzzylugnuts> They are pretty good for this application
[02:03] <kichimi> but wont last very long at all
[02:03] <kichimi> according to these charts
[02:04] <kichimi> okay
[02:04] <kichimi> right
[02:04] <fuzzylugnuts> you can calculate exacly how long if you know your payload's requirements
[02:04] <fuzzylugnuts> then adjust your battery bank accordingly
[02:04] <kichimi> okay
[02:04] <kichimi> i dont know how heavy this is going to be
[02:05] <fuzzylugnuts> Ok
[02:06] <kichimi> my limit is going to have to be under a kg
[02:07] <kichimi> anyways when its ready
[02:08] <kichimi> im going to put it in my dads car and see how long it lasts
[02:08] <kichimi> and if it works without crashing
[02:08] <fuzzylugnuts> there you go
[02:08] <kichimi> anyways im going to sleep
[02:08] <kichimi> night night
[02:09] <kichimi> thanks for your help :)
[02:09] <fuzzylugnuts> No prob
[02:09] <kichimi> i really have covered almost every detail
[02:09] <kichimi> im just waiting on a talk about the balloon
[02:09] <kichimi> anyways
[02:09] <kichimi> l8rs
[02:09] <fuzzylugnuts> eeeeeeebaaaaaaaaaaaay ; )
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[09:27] <rjharrison> wow loads of people on
[09:28] <rjharrison> any one awake?
[09:31] <rjharrison> If I want a low current to go into my ADC from a 5v supply if I use 5K=R1 and 15K=R2 Do I calc the current flowing as V/(R1+R2) 5/(20,000) ?
[09:32] <rjharrison> See the circuit below connected to ADC4
[09:32] <rjharrison> http://www.robertharrison.org/svn/filedetails.php?repname=the-icarus-project&path=%2FIcarus+III%2Feagle%2FIcarus+III%2FIcarus.pdf
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[10:31] <SpeedEvil1> What do you mean 'a low current'
[10:31] <SpeedEvil1> the ADC will read voltage not current
[10:42] <rjharrison> Hi SpeedEvil1
[10:42] <rjharrison> Yep just I don't want to feed it too high a current as I think it might be bad for the uC
[10:43] <rjharrison> I assume if I used 5 ohm and 15 ohm R's for the divider I may be asking for trouble
[10:43] <rjharrison> ir is the ADC protected from over current ?
[10:45] <rjharrison> ir = or
[10:45] <rjharrison> kichimi nice board that biffer thing
[10:47] <SpeedEvil1> rjharrison: generally - something like a 1K resistor in series witht he ADC, and a diode to each rail will be fine.
[10:47] <rjharrison> Ahh out of my depth there should I be doing that with the other adc input too?
[10:59] <SpeedEvil1> When the voltage on the input to the resistor goes 0.6V outside the rails, the diode begins to conduct. This limits the current to the microcontroller pin to some few microamps.
[10:59] <SpeedEvil1> what's your input voltage?
[11:00] <SpeedEvil1> Currently comenting to ofcom on http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=5921823
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[11:12] <rjharrison> Input voltage is 5v in this case
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[11:24] <SpeedEvil1> Ok - done the above - silly proposal to effectively ban linux DTTV cards recieving HDTV
[11:24] <SpeedEvil1> Ok - to recap.
[11:25] <SpeedEvil1> The ADC pin - in fact most pins of most ICs - will start to conduct current to the supply rails through the internal built-in diodes when the voltage goes over about .4V over the supply rails.
[11:26] <SpeedEvil1> There is sometimes a specified maximum input current in this mode - check your datasheet.
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[11:29] <SpeedEvil1> Otherwise - an external resistor - 10K or so - in series with the ADC - with a couple of diodes to the power rails connected at the side of the resistor away from the ADC - will prevent this end of the resistor from going beyond +-0.6V or so - which will limit the current into the ADC pin
[11:29] <SpeedEvil1> To 10K/0.2V or so - which is safe for most devices - if not always to the letter of the datasheet
[11:32] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[11:58] <kichimi> rjharrison: i said that last night lol
[12:05] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil thanks for that
[12:05] <rjharrison> kichimi sorry I'm a bit slow
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[12:31] <Laurenceb> hi
[12:31] <Laurenceb> http://www.imaging1.com/thermal/UAV.html
[12:31] Action: Laurenceb buys one
[12:37] <SpeedEvil> Insane
[12:39] <Laurenceb> unidirectional CF seems to be the trick
[12:39] <Laurenceb> it probably 75% lipo cells or something by weight
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> unidirectional CF I wouldn't think'd make a significant difference.
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> strength is probably fine once you get above the minimum thickness
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> it's only a factor of 2 anyway
[12:41] <Laurenceb> apparently the turbulators and wing fences help
[12:41] <Laurenceb> and its obviously low drag to start with
[12:41] <Laurenceb> - theres a thread on it on rcgroups
[12:48] <SpeedEvil> Does it have antiradar paint though?
[12:49] <SpeedEvil> Also the size.
[12:49] <SpeedEvil> the whole linear size/range dependancy
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[13:45] <Laurenceb> seen this? http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=4235#
[13:45] <Laurenceb> gtg
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[13:47] <SpeedEvil> laurenceb - I'm not really looking at parts for this - at the moment I'm concentrating on boring stuff
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[17:20] <rjharrison> Another silly question
[17:20] <rjharrison> If I charge a cap from a 5v source the max voltage it can kick oout is 5v?
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> Yes.
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> Thoug you can reconnect it to the 5V rail and get 10V - the cap still has 5V between the terminals
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> this is a charge pump
[17:22] <rjharrison> Basically I'm thinking pyro cutdown here
[17:22] <rjharrison> Charge up the 4400uF and then fire the pyro using a mosfet
[17:23] <rjharrison> I'm only wanting a voltage max of 5v going out from the cap
[17:23] <rjharrison> Which I think should be the case
[17:23] <rjharrison> :)
[17:24] <rjharrison> Electronics is great when you don't understand the fundimentals
[17:24] <rjharrison> Getting there and thanks once again speedevil
[17:24] <rjharrison> you will have to let me know the number of the local takeaway service soon
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> The ebook in the topic of ##electronics isn't bad
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> I would however recommend a copy of The Art of Electronics
[17:25] <rjharrison> Lots of people in here today
[17:25] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil is that at beginner level
[17:25] <rjharrison> neophyte :)
[17:25] <kleinjt> I'll delurk to second that reccomendation.
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison: It's pretty much so.
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison: I've said before that the first third of the first 6 or so chapters is most 'learn electronics for dummies' books.
[17:26] <rjharrison> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Electronics-Paul-Horowitz/dp/0521370957
[17:26] <rjharrison> ?
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> Then it carries on and goes into more detail on each topic
[17:27] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil is that the one?
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> Yes.
[17:27] <rjharrison> Ordered
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> Second edition is current.
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> There have been rumors of the third edition - but for a decadeish :/
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> A lot is somewhat dated.
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> But all the fundamentals are sound.
[17:28] <SpeedEvil> Basically - it needs a new microcontroller, low-power chapter, all of the computer related stuff ripped out and redone
[17:28] <SpeedEvil> And all of the product selection tables need replaced
[17:29] <SpeedEvil> And also probably a chapter on getting PCBs and stuff made
[17:36] <SpeedEvil> UK people - you may want to respond to ofcom on http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=5921823 - 'DRM-lite' on DTTV HD
[17:57] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil looks like third edition in nov 2009
[17:57] <rjharrison> Art of Electronics Student Manual
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[17:57] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison: no - that's the student manual
[17:57] <rjharrison> http://isbn.nu/9780521809269#biblio_detail
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison: it's a seperate bit with more problems
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> http://frank.harvard.edu/aoe/ - has no details
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> I can't seem to find any 3e references
[18:04] <rjharrison> (this site last modified 29 July 99)
[18:05] <rjharrison> http://frank.harvard.edu/aoe/
[18:05] <rjharrison> So it's a little out of date
[18:05] <rjharrison> I have emailed his secretary to find out
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> I'm sorry Rich, we're not done yet. But we have finished
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> enough to be able to concentrate on material that's much
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> more advanced than we had before, which you should
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> find interesting.
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> by the author
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[18:08] <SpeedEvil> See http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_thread/thread/e6026ab29e46b5cc/e05f586ffd078f9f?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=art+of+electronics#e05f586ffd078f9f
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> he should know
[18:11] <rjharrison> Yep but he wrote that in 2006
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_thread/thread/6d775a0895a03c0f/52ff8adaa5df324b?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_thread/thread/6d775a0895a03c0f/52ff8adaa5df324b?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22art+of+electronics%22#52ff8adaa5df324b8&q=%22art+of+electronics%22#52ff8adaa5df324b
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_thread/thread/6d775a0895a03c0f/52ff8adaa5df324b?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22art+of+electronics%22#52ff8adaa5df324b
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> rather
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/7988104cebc6e822%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dgroup:sci.electronics.design%2Bauthor:Winfield%2Bauthor:Hill
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> early 2010 - written last nov
[18:14] <rjharrison> Cool
[18:14] <rjharrison> May as well wait a bit
[18:14] <rjharrison> I'll have a chat with Camb. U P
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> Personally - I'd have some doubts - the schedule has slipped rather a lot.
[18:17] <rjharrison> Yep I think a quick call tomorrow and make a decision
[18:18] <rjharrison> I have cancelled with amazon till then
[18:18] <rjharrison> Right time for home
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[18:18] <SpeedEvil> wave
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[20:03] Nick change: Xenion -> RobertB
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[20:45] <DanielRichman> ping SpeedEvil
[20:45] <jeev> ping DanielRichman
[20:46] <DanielRichman> ?
[20:46] <jeev> :<
[20:46] <DanielRichman> :?
[20:46] <DanielRichman> hi jeev
[20:46] <jeev> hi DanielRichman.
[20:47] <DanielRichman> so um...
[20:48] <DanielRichman> ?
[20:49] <jeev> ?
[20:49] <DanielRichman> was just wondering why I was pinged
[20:52] <jeev> same reason why you pinged SpeedEvil!
[20:52] <jeev> and i didnt even ping you!
[20:52] <DanielRichman> <DanielRichman> ping SpeedEvil
[20:52] <DanielRichman> <jeev> ping DanielRichman
[20:52] <DanielRichman> ?
[20:55] <jeev> thats not a ping
[20:55] <jeev> ;)
[20:55] <DanielRichman> it's got the word ping in it
[20:55] <jeev> but it wasn't an actual ping
[20:55] <DanielRichman> tru dat
[20:56] <DanielRichman> but this is a #highaltitude ping
[20:56] <sbasuita_> what
[20:56] <DanielRichman> yes.
[20:56] Nick change: sbasuita_ -> sbasuita
[20:56] <sbasuita> jeev, sup
[20:56] <DanielRichman> jeev, <jeev> same reason why you pinged SpeedEvil! ??
[20:57] <jeev> :<
[20:57] <DanielRichman> You're gonna have to spell it out for me.
[20:58] <DanielRichman> (sorry).
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[21:49] <SpeedEvil> ?
[21:50] <Laurenceb> !
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: ping SpeedEvil
[22:07] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, hi
[22:08] <DanielRichman> Since today was school prizegiving; I now have an unholy amount of waterstones vouchers to kill... and I couldn't help seeing you reccomend a book earlier
[22:08] <DanielRichman> yay or nay?
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> I would check it out at the library first - as with all books
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> Personally
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> But yes, it's good.
[22:09] <DanielRichman> Ok, cool, thanks
[22:09] <DanielRichman> gtg now
[22:10] DanielRichman (i=5610b370@gateway/web/freenode/x-qszairwsgmdvspzk) left irc: "Page closed"
[22:11] <SpeedEvil> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/09/16/1556218/On-Body-Circuits-Create-New-Sense-Organ
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[00:00] --- Thu Sep 17 2009