highaltitude.log.20090816

[00:00] <Xenion> if it would be "usefull" in scientific terms
[00:00] <Xenion> i think the idea is great
[00:00] <Xenion> the only problem is, that the fee associated with this prize isn't that high ...
[00:01] <Xenion> beating the 100km is doable .. but doing it with with a more usefull approach ( for later missions ) would cost alot morem oney than one could gain
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=627447&cid=24362431
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> I wrote on the n-prize
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> Nope
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> If it costs 1000 pounds for 20 grams, 200 grams will not cost 10000
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> (of satellite design)
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> Including a brief sketch of an imaging satellite
[00:03] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:03] <Laurenceb> I'm rather worried about heating during the ascnet
[00:03] <Laurenceb> the stagnation temperature is around 5000C
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> you mean during first stage?
[00:04] <Laurenceb> but the dynamic pressure is very low for all but ~5 seconds
[00:04] <Xenion> interesting
[00:04] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> (queazocotal=me)
[00:04] <Laurenceb> I approximated it was roughly something like 5 seconds under a propane torch
[00:04] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, i fiured that one :)
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> umm.
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> Is it really that high?
[00:04] <Laurenceb> so kapton over balse or something may stand up
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> oh
[00:05] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, my point is just the rocket part .. but this discussion is nearly endless :)
[00:05] <Laurenceb> kapton over balsa was my first idea
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> yeah - you're doing the bulk of the accelleration then
[00:05] <Xenion> i've wrote a blog post about this one
[00:05] <Laurenceb> yeah 7 second first stage burn from ~32Km
[00:05] <Xenion> http://www.part-time-scientists.com/rockoon <- it's not about the n-prize but more about rockoning in it's original design
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> If you can control and launch a 20g sat - for under a thousand pounds - you have gotten all of the control and guidance stuff you need to launch a 20Kg sat.
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> Pretty much.
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> And you've got a cheap test platform to try 'space' stuff on.
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> For example - guidance techniques - for the larger rocket - with no real huge investment
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> Though I later revised that in my head to include active pointing - using magnetorquers.
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> Which can be quite light if you do it right.
[00:10] <Laurenceb> the spin up HAB mount could be used for dead basic 100Km launches
[00:10] <Laurenceb> bbl
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[00:20] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/08/15/1410232/Airborne-Laser-Successfully-Tracks-Hits-Missile
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[00:38] <kornholi> ;o
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[09:49] <mc-> Rocketboy, are you on telly tomorrow?
[09:54] <RocketBoy> yes - I expect to be
[09:55] <mc-> I know the person who designed the microwave powered helicopter for Bang
[09:56] <mc-> perhaps I shouldn't have said what is on future shows
[09:57] <RocketBoy> Oh right - i told Jem to get get someone who knew what they were doing with 750watts of microwaves
[09:57] <mc-> they modified a microwave oven, scary
[09:57] <RocketBoy> they have already previewed the microwave death ray
[09:58] <RocketBoy> was it a radio ham?
[09:58] <mc-> no, I'll send you a pm
[09:59] <RocketBoy> so how did they licence that?
[09:59] <mc-> er, they didn't
[10:00] <RocketBoy> tut tut
[10:03] <mc-> I think it was aimed towards a hill, and was very directional
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[10:05] <RocketBoy> sure - they were using a cone antenna methinks
[10:06] <mc-> yes
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[10:15] <RocketBoy> I always wanted to make a radar using a microwave oven - 400W at 2.450GHz just falls into the ham radio licence
[10:15] <mc-> maybe they did have a license, don't think the Beeb would break the law.
[10:16] <mc-> the guy that designed it, isn't a ham
[10:18] <mc-> a 400W radar would work a long distance, especially if an active radar target was used.
[10:18] <RocketBoy> they could have used an "experimental licence"
[10:19] <mc-> he knows how to design an active beacon which would increase the target area.
[10:19] <mc-> it might be a good way to track something flying
[10:21] <RocketBoy> It shouldnt be to difficult to pulse the magnatron with enough Volts to generate a 400W pulse from the magnatrol
[10:21] <RocketBoy> magratron
[10:22] <RocketBoy> magnatron
[10:22] <mc-> magnetron...
[10:22] <RocketBoy> yeah - that looks righter
[10:23] <mc-> 1ms pulse, then switch on the receiver
[10:23] <RocketBoy> yep
[10:24] <mc-> can have a separate receive horn, to simplify construction
[10:24] <RocketBoy> just need a sensative receiver
[10:25] <mc-> that's fairly easy with today's technology
[10:25] <mc-> perhaps for the next Bang series?
[10:25] <RocketBoy> yeah
[10:26] <mc-> I'm still waiting for my 15 secs of fame
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[10:51] <neontube> morning all
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[12:29] <Hiena> http://vicclap.hu/movie/2626/ <= Touchscreen
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[12:45] <rjharrison_home> Hey DanielRichman
[12:46] <rjharrison_home> Hi all
[12:46] <jatkins> hi
[12:47] <rjharrison_home> Does anyone know who is responsble for hosting the HA wiki and if it's backed up regularly
[12:48] <rjharrison_home> Be a shame to lose all the wiki in the event of a disk crash
[12:48] <jatkins> I think jcoxon is responsible for it
[12:48] <jatkins> not sure if it's backed up regularly
[12:48] <rjharrison_home> Humm I have a skeak suspicion that it's someone else who hosts and manages it
[12:48] <rjharrison_home> sneaky
[12:53] <jatkins> rjharrison_home: can I ask what module/phone you used for sending SMSs on your flight? I've been having trouble hacking an ericcsson t68i.
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[13:00] <DanielRichman> hi rjharrison_home
[13:01] <DanielRichman> jatkins, t68i is tastey; we've hacked one successfully
[13:01] <DanielRichman> what you getting stuck on?
[13:01] <jatkins> getting it to respond
[13:01] <jatkins> I've soldered to the tabs on the connector (pin 4 & 10) ok
[13:01] <jatkins> and tried a sample PDU message
[13:01] <jatkins> but no response
[13:01] <DanielRichman> what O/S are you on?
[13:02] <jatkins> windows xp
[13:02] <DanielRichman> what are you using to talk to it?
[13:02] <jatkins> so no line end problem
[13:02] <DanielRichman> yeah, that's the problem I had
[13:02] <jatkins> arduino ide
[13:02] <DanielRichman> and what hardware?
[13:02] <jatkins> arduino pro mini + ftdi board
[13:02] <jatkins> + dcu-11 cable
[13:02] <DanielRichman> so you're using the ftdi to do the serial?
[13:02] <jatkins> yep
[13:02] <jatkins> it's 3.3v
[13:03] <jatkins> so i have a voltage divider
[13:03] <DanielRichman> our t68i needed something like 2.7 but ok
[13:03] <DanielRichman> got a voltmeter? whats the voltage on pin4?
[13:03] <jatkins> r1 = 82 ohm r2 = 470 ohm 3.3 v becomes 2.8 v
[13:03] <DanielRichman> good
[13:03] <DanielRichman> hangon. you only soldered to pin4 and pin10?
[13:03] <jatkins> yep
[13:04] <DanielRichman> you won't get a response then - output is on pin5
[13:04] <jatkins> oh
[13:04] <jatkins> but it's not sending the message
[13:04] <DanielRichman> got credit and signal?
[13:04] <jatkins> yep
[13:04] <DanielRichman> ok
[13:04] <jatkins> I've written some code to generate the octets
[13:04] <jatkins> but for testing I just used this generator: http://www.rednaxela.net/pdu.php
[13:04] <DanielRichman> wanna try one of my PDUs?
[13:04] <jatkins> yeah
[13:05] <DanielRichman> what phonenumber shall I generate the pdu for? (PM me if you want, or I can use my own phone no)
[13:05] <rjharrison_home> DanielRichman going to start to write up the microSD card for the wiki
[13:05] <DanielRichman> rjharrison_home, awesome
[13:05] <jatkins> i'll pm you
[13:06] <rjharrison_home> Would you mind if I hacked the code a bit to #define a debug mode
[13:06] <rjharrison_home> That way the code will only be included if #LOG_DEBUG = TRUE
[13:06] <DanielRichman> rjharrison_home, sure. Originally I had that but it's a bit messy, because in debug mode you need to replace SPDR with a local/stack variable so you can see what it's sending/not sending
[13:07] <DanielRichman> you see in debug mode all the SPDRs become ASDFs, so that we can shout on serial about what char is being sent... then SPDR = ASDF.
[13:07] <rjharrison_home> Ahh what is SPDR normally?
[13:07] <DanielRichman> SPDR is the AVR io register
[13:07] <DanielRichman> ie. the input output
[13:07] <DanielRichman> c = SPDR; /* Get received char */
[13:07] <DanielRichman> SPDR = 0xFF; /* Transmit 0xFF */
[13:07] <DanielRichman> just like UDR
[13:08] <rjharrison_home> Ahh OK I see
[13:08] <rjharrison_home> Perhaps two versions then a DEBUG and a use version
[13:10] <DanielRichman> there is a way around
[13:10] <DanielRichman> but it's ugly
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[13:15] <DanielRichman> rjharrison_home, http://code.google.com/p/alien-flightcomputer/source/browse/trunk/alien1/atmega162/tests/logtest.c - ugly code, wear your radiation protection suit
[13:15] <DanielRichman> but that works.
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[13:23] <DanielRichman> bbl
[13:31] <rjharrison_home> DanielRichman can I put you as co author on this
[13:39] <DanielRichman> rjharrison_home, sure
[13:52] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
[13:53] <DanielRichman> rjharrison_home, it looks like it's phatmonkey who hosts ukhas.org.uk & the wiki
[13:55] <rjharrison_home> OK cool
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[14:08] <rjharrison_home> DanielRichman how big is your SD card
[14:08] <DanielRichman> 2GB microSD; Standard Capacity
[14:21] <rjharrison_home> Arse I thought that may have explained the 0x01 as opposed to the 0x00
[14:23] <DanielRichman> meh; SD is proprietary; weird things are part of the package.
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[17:05] <Xenion> hello everyone
[17:05] <Xenion> just a sunday evening soldering question .. :-)
[17:05] <Xenion> maybe someone has a hint for me
[17:06] <Xenion> everytime i solder pinheaders ( like the normal ide connectors )
[17:06] <Xenion> i've got the problem, if i plug in the connector everything is fine
[17:07] <Xenion> if i unplug the bus cable more than 2 times at least one of the golden pins moves out of place
[17:07] <Xenion> the soldering itself seems to fine
[17:07] <Xenion> it is just that this little golden pins won't stay fixed
[17:08] <Xenion> on comercially fabricted boards something like this never happens
[17:08] <Xenion> im guessing that my pin headers are "cheap crap"
[17:08] <Xenion> but maybe i'm forgetting something
[17:08] <Xenion> i even thought about putting glue unter the pin header .. but for what purpose?
[17:13] <SpikeUK> Xenion can you post a link to an example header on the web?
[17:14] <Xenion> http://eshop.acmesystems.it/?id=3
[17:14] <Xenion> i got them there
[17:14] <Xenion> exactly this ones
[17:15] <Xenion> its not that i buy there regulary
[17:15] <Xenion> but i ordered some foxboards there so i just ordered a bunch of them there
[17:17] <Xenion> http://eshop.acmesystems.it/products/STRIPM2X206MM.jpg
[17:17] <SpikeUK> Just a guess, but maybe the insulation is a thermoplastic. Some of the more inexpensive connectors use this material and it's very easy to melt when soldering
[17:19] <SpikeUK> Try a heatsink (pin-nosed pliers) between where you are soldering and the insulation.
[17:20] <SpikeUK> Xenion - hope this helps! Please let us know i=how you get on.
[17:24] <Xenion> :-)
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[19:51] <neontube> Xenion: As well as SpikeUK's suggestion, start by soldering one pin at one end, then go to the other end, and work back and forth, this gives a bit more time for the surrounding plastics to cool between each pin soldered
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[19:52] <Xenion> neontube, i'll try it in 5 minutes !
[19:52] <Xenion> thxs both of you
[19:53] <neontube> same goes for any multipin components, don't rush it and give plenty of cooling time.
[19:54] <neontube> if your are plugging/unplugging the pin headers alot, its worth looking at the sort that have a suround to the socket. (bit like the IDE socket on a motherboard)
[19:56] <neontube> My soldering today has involved resoldering the RF plug on the end of the lead to the WB antenna outside, never been that impressed with the reception using it.... found out today that the center core had actualy snapped off when i tightned the casing up orignally, reception is much better now !!
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:57] <neontube> i was begning to think the little hand scanner had gone a bit deaf !
[19:57] <neontube> shame it won;t do SSB though
[20:11] Nick change: gordonjc1 -> gordonjcp
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[23:28] <Laurenceb> hi
[23:32] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: I was looking at a spin stabilised design with no gyro system - its theoretically possible but I'm not sure how much delta v you lose yet
[23:33] <Laurenceb> prob best to aim for a highly elliptical orbit, but you need more energy than the 200km circular orbit possible with a gyro system
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> you just have one spin that goes for the second stage too?
[23:35] <Laurenceb> yeah
[23:36] <Laurenceb> the problem is you need to launch at ~15 degrees to horizontal
[23:36] <Laurenceb> so that means you need to launch at >40Km for it to stand any chance of working
[23:36] <Laurenceb> outside the range of latex balloons
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> hmm.
[23:37] <Laurenceb> unless you have lots of delta v
[23:37] <Laurenceb> theoretically you could launch straight up and use the 465m/s from the earths rotation to put you into a very high circular orbit
[23:42] <Laurenceb> I think adding a control moment gyro powered by brushless motors is worth the trouble - the deployment would be quite easy to test on the ground
[23:51] <SpeedEvil> and not that hard with a teeny motor
[23:51] <SpeedEvil> a couple of small stages
[23:51] <SpeedEvil> on balloons
[23:56] <Laurenceb> I need to do some proper designs
[23:56] <Laurenceb> the nozzle is a little tricky - ideally just silica fabric ribbon wet layed on a mandrel
[23:56] <Laurenceb> but its hard to do the throat like that
[23:57] <Laurenceb> probably best to have a graphite throat
[00:00] --- Mon Aug 17 2009