highaltitude.log.20090806

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[10:01] <rjharrison> Hi all
[10:01] <rjharrison> edmoore you pinged yesterday
[10:01] <rjharrison> That was a whole 24 hour ago though
[10:02] <rjharrison> Any news from RocketBoy re launches anyone?
[10:03] <edmoore> rjharrison: sorry, am on web based irc which doesn't ping back
[10:03] <edmoore> so i tend to forget about it
[10:03] <edmoore> parts arrived in great nick, thank you
[10:03] <edmoore> first badger cub pretty much soldered up
[10:04] <edmoore> i have a sea of about 400 passives to place on badger 2. it's just solid ratsnest of air wires atm
[10:04] <edmoore> i want to cry
[10:26] <kornholi> :p
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[11:25] <rjharrison> edmoore use the dreaded autoroute and tidy. Is there an tx module (NTX2) on the CUB can say I remember seeing it
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[12:01] <edmoore> rjharrison: that's the worst advice in the history of all time, sorry
[12:01] <edmoore> there can be no excuses
[12:02] <edmoore> this board has got 2 gps units, a 70cm tranceiver, and a whole ton of high speed digital. It needs a proper job. It takes longer, but it's got to be done properly.
[12:03] <edmoore> rjharrison: no, not ntx2
[12:03] <edmoore> cc1111
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[12:13] <SpeedEvil> autoroute has a place - if you use it after critical areas are routed it can be not insane
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> literally 400 passives?
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> oh
[12:15] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil: I'm sure routing by hand might be ideal but hell. I'd save some time and place the highspeed comps together and manually route thouse if needed and then let the autorouter have a play and then see what it's done
[12:16] <rjharrison> those
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[12:29] <SpeedEvil> yeah
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[13:57] <rjharrison> edmoore C PM
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[17:25] <rjharrison> BTW ShellEvil your alias is a stand against the petrochemical industry and driving fast? Is there some reasoning behind it?
[17:26] Nick change: ShellEvil -> SpeedEvil
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> It's more due to the fact that historically this nicks was run on a shell.
[17:29] <rjharrison> Just thought I'd ask it has nagged at me occasionally and i happend to think about it
[17:40] <SpeedEvil> Though for the record, I support a massive increase in the use of nuclear power (of the order of 25*) - putting _all_ fixed loads on electric grid - and a massive program of home insulation subsidised by the state and paid back by reduced energy imports.
[17:40] <SpeedEvil> From both an environmental - and more importantly and urgently - balance of payments - point of view.
[17:43] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil here here... Glad you have the time to think about these issues
[17:44] <SpeedEvil> We're currently ahead of china in terms of GDP - due to the truly massive inheritance of infrastructure we have.
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> In terms of roads that go from anywhere to anywhere easily and freely (pretty much) - postal service likewise - health service - ...
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[17:47] <rjharrison> hey jcoxon
[17:47] <rjharrison> how's it going
[17:47] <jcoxon> hello rjharrison
[17:47] <jcoxon> not bad thanks
[17:47] <jcoxon> you?
[17:47] <rjharrison> ICARUS III is under way
[17:48] <rjharrison> I want to add a few more sensors. Abs Pressure
[17:48] <rjharrison> Relative Humidity
[17:48] <jcoxon> cool
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> envelope temp?
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> (IR thermo pointed up)
[17:49] <rjharrison> I need to know how to interface capacitive sensors to the avr
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> easy
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> analog devices
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> they've got loads of I2C capacitive A/Ds that are damn near free
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> Alternatively.
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> Set up a PWM at - say - 1KHz.
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> Set up a comparator.
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> Now - time when an RC time constant goes high or low - formed from and R and the C you're measuring
[17:50] <jcoxon> rjharrison, why capactive sensors?
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> There are also nice voltage out humidity sensors.
[17:50] <rjharrison> The humidity ones I found on farnell
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> But they are more expensive of coruse
[17:54] <jcoxon> rjharrison, was thiniking we should have a 'test' payload on the server
[17:54] <jcoxon> for people to test their dl-fldigi setup without actually putting points onto the map
[17:56] <rjharrison> http://uk.farnell.com/honeywell-s-c/hih-4000-002/sensor-humidity-1-27mm-sip/dp/1187548
[17:56] <rjharrison> jcoxon excellent idea sir
[17:56] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil: Like the sensor here ^^^
[17:57] <rjharrison> This is voltage so straight ADC
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[17:58] <rjharrison> Humm what is 100% humidity?
[17:58] <rjharrison> RH
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> 100% humidity is the pressure of water vapour that is about to condense
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> the air can hold no more water
[17:58] <rjharrison> I wonder how I can create that
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> breath.
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> The air you breath out is 100% humidity
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> Or damn close
[17:59] <rjharrison> Ok that's easy I still have a bit of that left in me
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> The other issue is that temperature compensation attempts to calibrate the sensor for differing maximum vapour pressure over temperature
[18:01] <SpeedEvil> And also I'm unsure what these'll do at 0.01 bar
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> hmm. I would expect pressure to make no difference.
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> But I wouldn't like to say that for sure.
[18:03] <rjharrison> I should just buy a radiosonde and be done with it :)
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> If I could get to the postbox without a lot of walking, I'd send you one
[18:04] <jcoxon> urgh don't go the radiosonde way
[18:04] <rjharrison> I'm not
[18:05] <jcoxon> crazily intergrated devices
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> they've gotten humidity sensors in tho
[18:05] <rjharrison> I just feel that that is what I'm making here :)
[18:05] <rjharrison> http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/315719.pdf
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> and pressure
[18:05] <rjharrison> This looks better
[18:06] <rjharrison> When icarus III is loaded up it should be able to give quite alot of info about the local environment
[18:07] <rjharrison> I'm hoping to knick danielrichmonds code to get the sd card working too
[18:07] <rjharrison> then I can even log the data
[18:09] <jcoxon> excellent
[18:09] <jcoxon> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[18:10] <rjharrison> Cool
[18:10] <rjharrison> Might be worth nothing that the IC7000 is ! very portable
[18:10] <rjharrison> noting
[18:12] <rjharrison> Ahh but you're talking about dl-fldigi
[18:12] <jcoxon> :-)
[18:14] <rjharrison> Humm the listening array around the uk is looking quite good
[18:15] <rjharrison> We just need leicester and we have very nice coverge
[18:15] <jcoxon> indeed
[18:15] <jcoxon> oooo doug might be able to provide that
[18:16] <rjharrison> Indeed Cambridge is a little over subscribed
[18:16] <jcoxon> and we also now have spikeuk as well
[18:16] <jcoxon> he has just renew his licence
[18:16] <jcoxon> when i get back we should organise a simple launch and get everyone tracking
[18:16] <jcoxon> push the system a bit
[18:18] <jcoxon> look at this photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nebarnix/2875752577/in/pool-highaltitude
[18:21] <jcoxon> i wonder how ballasthalo is up that tree
[18:22] <rjharrison> jcoxon I'm afraid i have been a bit busy and under the wx
[18:22] <rjharrison> WHo took that picture and where was it?>
[18:23] <jcoxon> it was on the highaltitude flickr group
[18:23] <jcoxon> am looking for photos to spruce up the wiki
[18:23] <jcoxon> rjharrison, no worries it'll be fine up the tree
[18:23] <rjharrison> Do we know anything more about it?
[18:24] <jcoxon> only whats on that page
[18:24] <jcoxon> it rather impressive
[18:25] <jcoxon> bbiab
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[18:26] <rjharrison> I'm off home
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[18:55] <Laurenceb> hi
[18:56] <jcoxon> hey Laurenceb
[19:01] <jcoxon> hey RocketBoy
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[19:25] <Laurenceb> http://208.116.9.205/10/content/18870/1.jpg
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[19:28] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, oh dear - how sad
[19:33] <edmoore> wassup?
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[19:38] <jcoxon> laurence posted this:
[19:38] <jcoxon> http://208.116.9.205/10/content/18870/1.jpg
[19:38] <jcoxon> edmoore, ping
[19:39] <edmoore> oh dear
[19:40] <jcoxon> edmoore, also i finsihed this: http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[19:41] <edmoore> I had a similar involuntary outburst today that made me think that perhaps the slightly theoretical nature of my degree is making me completely loose sight of the real world. Someone said 'Does anyone mind if I put holes in this box' and I said 'You can't store holes in a box - that's a topology fail'.
[19:41] <edmoore> The correct answer was 'no - go ahead'
[19:41] <SpikeUK> edmoore LOL!
[19:42] <edmoore> jcoxon: that's excellent
[19:42] <SpeedEvil> 'If the signal drifts so that either bar is close to either the top or bottom of the spectrum, you may stop recieving it as it drifts further out of range. You may then need to retune up or down...'
[19:42] <SpeedEvil> or something
[19:42] <edmoore> So I got my handheld today, thanks to the excellent work by this ebayer. It's really a gem
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:43] <edmoore> he's saved every 2m and 70cm repeater on it too, with the correct access and shift settings. legend
[19:43] <edmoore> in the UK, at least
[19:43] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, is that an addition?
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: yes - suggested
[19:44] <jcoxon> feel free to add to it
[19:44] <jcoxon> i think its a good addition
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: I don't know how to retune fldigi offhand easily - forgotten - maybe later
[19:45] <edmoore> i think the google earth view where you have both live traffic and the live repeater list kml file provided by ukrepeaters, + balloon treack, you have a really really excellent tool to manage a chase from a base station with the radio
[19:45] <jcoxon> edmoore, :-) does require a good base station operator
[19:45] <jcoxon> such as yourself hehe
[19:46] <edmoore> we'll train some up :)
[19:46] <edmoore> i did quite enjoy just sitting and working on the bast place to go, rather than actually chasing, last time
[19:46] <jcoxon> hopefully the new wiki page will make it easier to add to the network
[19:46] <edmoore> being 'the guy with the car' on CUSF the last 3 years can sometimes take the shine off chases!
[19:46] <jcoxon> keen to have as many people as possible
[19:46] <jcoxon> edmoore, yes i can imagine
[19:47] <edmoore> it's the drive back that does it. After an all-nighter and a dawn lunch, and recovery from the other side of nottingham at say 9am, that drive back to cambridge is a toughie, and everyone else in the car has fallen asleep
[19:47] <edmoore> yes that guide should really help get some more people onboard
[19:48] <jcoxon> edmoore, hehe
[19:48] <jcoxon> all about overnight floaters
[19:48] <edmoore> and the repeater coverage is so good that I think I can probably access almost all of east anglia's repeaters with a yagi from cambridge, and be able to talk to all the chase cars within a, say, 50km radius of that aprticular repeater
[19:48] <edmoore> they are the new black, yes
[19:49] <edmoore> right, off for a drink. See you all later
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[20:06] <Laurenceb> just finished my um12/ublox5 payload
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[20:12] <SpikeUK> Laurenceb - excellent! Any pics?
[20:12] <SpikeUK> ...or details?
[20:12] <rjharrison_home> Hey RocketBoy
[20:12] <rjharrison_home> Any launches planned?
[20:13] <Laurenceb> no pics sorry
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[20:13] <Laurenceb> its a UM12, avr and ublox5 basically
[20:14] <SpikeUK> UM12?
[20:15] <Laurenceb> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8889
[20:15] <Laurenceb> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=560
[20:17] <SpikeUK> Right! Got ya! Not Radiometrix?
[20:17] <Laurenceb> nope
[20:17] <Laurenceb> its an experiment to see how well it works
[20:19] <Laurenceb> took me ages to get i2c working on the ublox5
[20:19] <Laurenceb> its still hanging the avr ocassionally
[20:20] <SpikeUK> Ok. The SFE page does not quote an O/P power - but I guess V * I less a bit ;-)
[20:20] <Laurenceb> but it works well enough that I cant be bothered to spend any more time on it
[20:20] <Laurenceb> 10mw
[20:20] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:i2c_ubx
[20:22] <Laurenceb> that code seems to work but the i2c hardware goes into weird states sometimes
[20:23] <SpikeUK> ok. I2C on the AVR can be a bit flaky. No experience myself but one of my workmates has struggled to get a sensor (baro) to work with a Gumstix Robostix board
[20:24] <Laurenceb> yeah I've used it a few times - got it working with eeprom fine
[20:24] <Laurenceb> but spent ages getting an AD capacitance sensor working
[20:24] <Laurenceb> it seems to be a bit buggy
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[20:30] <SpikeUK> The GS406 I should be familiar with. I was looking at it only yesterday pm after failing to get a EM-406A to work http://www.skpang.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=93_154&products_id=440 in my office block
[20:32] <SpikeUK> despite being on the second floor, and having 180deg clear view to south. It'll be the metalized glass I reckon
[20:32] <Laurenceb> nice site
[20:32] <Laurenceb> havent come across that before
[20:32] <Laurenceb> yeah
[20:32] <Laurenceb> how new is the building?
[20:33] <SpikeUK> Building less that a year old - dreaded mirrored glass
[20:33] <Laurenceb> anything built in the last 20 years or so will have low emissivity glass
[20:33] <Laurenceb> ah
[20:35] <SpikeUK> SG Pang are v good! I've had very good experiences with then
[20:35] <SpikeUK> them = then
[20:38] <Laurenceb> wish it would stop raining :-/
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[20:42] <SpikeUK> Laurenceb - the rain is good for the garden...
[20:43] <SpikeUK> SiC hi!
[20:43] <SiC> hello there
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[20:49] <SpikeUK> Sorry - hello! In discussion on Twitter (now that it's back).
[20:49] <Laurenceb> SpikeUK: I doubt you will get anything better with a ublox5
[20:50] <Laurenceb> ewwww
[20:50] <Laurenceb> dont say that word
[20:50] Action: Laurenceb continues ddos attack
[20:51] <SpikeUK> Tsk, tsk!
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[20:52] <SpikeUK> I'm discussing Arduinos with Lady Ada http://www.ladyada.net/
[20:54] <SpikeUK> I guess that the UBlox is no more senstive thatn the SiRF III but that monster helical antenna on the GS406 is meant to be very good
[20:54] <Laurenceb> ah nerdgirls, the reason twitter was created
[20:54] <RocketBoy> how is multi-tasking handled on the Arduinos?
[20:54] <Laurenceb> its not :P
[20:54] <SpikeUK> Urm Badly?
[20:55] <Laurenceb> like most things
[20:55] <Laurenceb> arduino sucks
[20:55] <RocketBoy> so people use state machines then
[20:55] <RocketBoy> ?
[20:55] <Laurenceb> personally I use avr-gcc :P
[20:56] <RocketBoy> and that provides support for multi-taking in some way?
[20:57] <SpikeUK> Horses for courses Laurenceb. You can get results, of a simple kind, very quickly with the Arduino IDE
[20:57] <Laurenceb> well you can do what you want
[20:57] <Laurenceb> stick an rtos on if you want
[21:03] <RocketBoy> BBL - Reaper
[21:04] <Laurenceb> your killing people?
[21:06] <rjharrison_home> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zqABT3suzXE/Sa1j2ri66MI/AAAAAAAAARM/fIM0ELx7HHA/s1600-h/SD_schematic.JPG
[21:06] <rjharrison_home> Is this as good as ny circuit for interfacing SD card with at mega?
[21:06] <rjharrison_home> any
[21:07] <Laurenceb> erm
[21:07] <Laurenceb> wont that fry
[21:08] <rjharrison_home> Laurenceb not sure. I relly need a reliable circuit to interface SD and ISP to ATMEGA
[21:08] <Laurenceb> I think 2 of the 100ohm resistors are in the wrong place
[21:08] <rjharrison_home> Why are they there
[21:09] <rjharrison_home> Is that to drop the V for some reason
[21:09] <Laurenceb> to stop you frying the isp or the avr
[21:09] <Laurenceb> as if the code starts running with the isp cable attached
[21:09] <Laurenceb> then you have two masters on the bus
[21:10] <rjharrison_home> I can see that happening a lot just after programming
[21:10] <Laurenceb> yeah you need to move 2 of the resistoras
[21:11] <rjharrison_home> Laurenceb if you happen to know where I can find a pointer to a correct circuit that would be great or a pointer as to where I need to fix
[21:12] <Laurenceb> you need to move resistors to pins 5 and 3 of the isp
[21:12] <rjharrison_home> Could I avoid the R's if I make sure that no SD card is connected when programming
[21:12] <Laurenceb> no
[21:12] <Laurenceb> as the uC will still become a master
[21:13] <rjharrison_home> I don't put R's in normally is that only due to having the SD card in there
[21:14] <Laurenceb> due to the uC becominng a master
[21:15] <rjharrison_home> Humm I'm in the dark here. Sorry about my lack of understanding. Should I put R's in if I just have the ISP connected to the uC
[21:15] <Laurenceb> if the uC becomes a master
[21:15] <Laurenceb> as the code starts running
[21:15] <rjharrison_home> Ahh gotcha
[21:16] <rjharrison_home> It's the code that makes it a master :)
[21:16] <rjharrison_home> Normally it's a slave but then I want it to master the sd card
[21:16] <SpikeUK> Lady Ada's version is http://www.ladyada.net/make/gpsshield/gpsshieldv10_sch.png
[21:16] <rjharrison_home> With you now
[21:16] <SpikeUK> Lady Ada's version is http://www.ladyada.net/make/gpsshield/gpsshieldv10_sch.png
[21:18] <SpikeUK> Opps - sorry for repeats
[21:19] <rjharrison_home> Humm ladyada is way ahead of me here
[21:22] <rjharrison_home> on ladyada's sch there seems to be a divider on the data in an SLCK lines is that to drop 5v sigs to 3.3v?
[21:24] <SpikeUK> True! It's for use with a 5V Arduino rather than the 3.3V ATmega8 that you are using - may be that
[21:29] <rjharrison_home> Ok I'm a bit of a beginner here so I have to be carefull about what I deduce from looking a the schematics
[21:35] <SpikeUK> A lot of the detail is new to me too rjharrison_home but it's always wise to see how other people approach the same problems
[21:35] <SpikeUK> Off now -
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[22:04] <DanielRichman> Anyone tried http://www.openstreetmap.org/, and http://www.openstreetmap.org/export/ as an alternative to Google Maps?
[22:04] <DanielRichman> with regards to in-the-field mapping where there is no internetz
[22:07] Action: SpeedEvil is clearing up some of the US TIGER import data into OSM at the moment.
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[22:09] <SpeedEvil> (outskirts of colorado springs)
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> Onto what device is a question.
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> The best solution is a 19" rack, with a database and mapnik servers, maybe osmarender too. :)
[22:11] <SiC> surely 3G/GPRS datasticks + data is so cheap now, you'd not have to worry about carrying the whole map with you?
[22:11] <DanielRichman> true, and I'm lucky to have a couple available, just thinking
[22:12] <SiC> Nokia maps isnt half bad either
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> There are regrettably places where the phone doesn't work.
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> however.
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> OSM - once you get into the country - typically may not have all the little roads.
[22:12] <DanielRichman> hmm
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> It depends how dedicated the local mappers are.
[22:13] <DanielRichman> solution is some good Ordnance Survey paper maps
[22:13] <DanielRichman> and a ruler. and some patience.
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> ?
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> oh - right.
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> Thought you were alluding to tracing maps.
[22:15] <SpeedEvil> Which the OS generally get all pissy about.
[22:15] <akawaka> johan got some pretty high res US maps from a free source
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[22:15] <akawaka> can't remember where
[22:15] <akawaka> usgs maybe
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> yeah - US
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> There are no governmental freely available data products at high resolution in the UK
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[22:16] <SpeedEvil> There are in some areas yahoo imagery - which can be traced off.
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> (they've said it's OK)
[22:17] <akawaka> johan also wrote a google maps downloader:)
[22:17] <akawaka> that got our whole company banned from google maps for a day
[22:17] <SpeedEvil> That's against the T&Cs tho
[22:17] <akawaka> t&c?
[22:18] <SpeedEvil> google would have to pay stupid amounts to get the rights for their users to download the data
[22:18] <SpeedEvil> Terms And Conditions
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[22:57] <jcoxon> evening all
[23:02] <jcoxon> hey everyone here - are you all members of the UKHAS mailing list?
[23:02] <jcoxon> http://groups.google.com/group/ukhas
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[23:11] <edmoore> jcoxon: my reply as before - aree
[23:11] <edmoore> agree*
[23:18] <sbasuita> One thing to bear in mind imo is that the wiki root page is a bit cluttered; somebody coming to the site wouldn't really know where to begin.
[23:19] <sbasuita> For example, links like guides:building_a_servo_cradle_for_the_canon_digital_ixus_400_camera shouldn't really be linked from the main page?
[23:23] <jcoxon> sbasuita, good point
[23:24] <jcoxon> will have a think about decluttering
[23:24] <jcoxon> right im off
[23:24] <jcoxon> night
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[23:24] <edmoore> sbasuita: when you email 'the rest of the world' do you not get replies wondering what on earth all that pgp gibberish is about?
[23:24] <sbasuita> edmoore, hehe, not yet
[23:24] <sbasuita> edmoore, I don't really notice it because my mail client parses and hides it
[23:25] Action: sbasuita takes a look
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[23:41] Action: sbasuita fires up the external harddrive for some backup - more pgp loveliness :P
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[00:00] --- Fri Aug 7 2009