highaltitude.log.20090805

[00:16] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
[00:18] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzqnjZHYM0M
[00:20] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
[00:38] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: yes
[00:38] <Laurenceb> depends what onboard
[00:38] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations
[00:39] <SpeedEvil> I would be interested in 100g
[00:39] <Laurenceb> only applies to US
[00:39] <SpeedEvil> For $800
[00:39] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: there are various similar other internationals AIUI
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[00:42] <Laurenceb> hmm guess if their launcher is ITAR then yes
[00:46] <Laurenceb> http://hackaday.com/2009/08/03/bpsk-on-433-mhz-european-ism-band/
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[09:13] <rjharrison> Yo edmoore how is the hangover
[09:13] <edmoore> oh n ot bad
[09:13] <edmoore> i didn't drink properly, just enough to justify my purchase
[09:13] <rjharrison> hhe
[09:13] <edmoore> hold that thought, am heading down to the department, back online in 20 mins
[09:14] <rjharrison> np
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[11:23] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: ping
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> ong
[11:26] <Laurenceb> I was looking at minimal complexity guidance
[11:26] <Laurenceb> I think you can offload a magnetometer and gps onot the HAB
[11:27] <Laurenceb> then have an accel, IDG500 and a single axis gyro on the rocket, doubling as the sat, with a chipcon with integrated 8051
[11:27] <Laurenceb> then you only need two ground stations
[11:28] <SpeedEvil> idg500?
[11:28] <Laurenceb> dual axis rate gyro, $20
[11:29] <Laurenceb> you could have one ground station at the HAB launch site, and one in Florida (for mexico launch)
[11:30] <Laurenceb> youd need low latency net connection to the florida station
[11:30] <SpeedEvil> ah
[11:33] <Laurenceb> the tricky bit is getting the correct attituide for second stage launch
[11:33] <Laurenceb> and the correct time
[11:33] <Laurenceb> you really need to by <0.5 degrees off with aim and <20m/s of vertical velocity
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[11:35] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[11:35] <Laurenceb> and you have about 6 seconds to get the right attitude
[11:35] <Laurenceb> rather demanding
[11:36] <Laurenceb> - its hard to make the slow burning charge last longer than that
[11:37] <Laurenceb> - you ignite a slow buring charge at the top of the first stage the use the nozzle to get the attitude right
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> Does offloading the - say - 20-30g for magnetometer + accels + gyro from hte first stage really help that mych?
[11:39] <Laurenceb> well you also offload the gps
[11:40] <Laurenceb> if it was all custom made with a blackfin then youd be sorted
[11:40] <Laurenceb> but it would also be expensive
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> what rate does the chipcon give you?
[11:42] <Laurenceb> rate?
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> comms
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> at burnout of first
[11:43] <Laurenceb> a few KBps
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> ok - rules out AGPS - which was one thought
[11:46] <Laurenceb> another problem - the first stage is going to pick up some roll
[11:46] <Laurenceb> not sure how that will effect the attitude manover
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> hmm
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[11:51] <Laurenceb> could use the deployable thread idea
[11:53] <Laurenceb> and thermopiles for horizon sensing
[12:01] <Laurenceb> http://optoelectronics.perkinelmer.com/Catalog/Product.aspx?ProductID=TPAM166L3.9
[12:01] <Laurenceb> have that forward pointing
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[12:06] <SpeedEvil> hmm
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[12:36] <Laurenceb> if you used that you could get away with a single ground station
[12:38] <Laurenceb> http://www.yc-dz.com/productimages/134411420.pdf <- 4x4 arrays :P
[12:39] <Laurenceb> anyone for surface to air missiles?
[12:48] <Laurenceb> http://www.chartlandelectronics.co.uk/Datasheets/TSUP-8-CHK-01.pdf
[12:48] <Laurenceb> I've ordered from them before but they had to get them in from japan
[12:49] <rjharrison> Laurenceb apparently Al-Kida have a few for sale
[12:50] <Laurenceb> heh
[12:50] <Laurenceb> there are some pretty dubious applications of those things, thats all I was gewtting at
[12:53] <Laurenceb> if you can get away with a horizon sensor that solves a lot of the problems
[12:54] <Laurenceb> you just need tpo detect apogee
[13:07] <Laurenceb> just an accel, quad thermopile unit and idg500
[13:07] <Laurenceb> then single ground station
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[15:01] <Laurenceb> hi SiC
[15:02] <SiC> lo there
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> ih
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[15:08] <rjharrison> Got the goods?
[15:09] <edmoore> rjharrison: yes, just saw my text to you didn't deliver
[15:09] <edmoore> thank you!
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[15:17] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: if you stick a repeater on the HAB that works nicely
[15:18] <Laurenceb> nice strong signal and perfect alignment for measuring doppler
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> I was assuming multiple seperated - so you had a large baseline for 3d
[15:19] <Laurenceb> a single ground station is so much nicwer
[15:20] <Laurenceb> I had an idea for attitude control after burnout: at 150Km the front fairing seperates and the nosecode unfolds into 6 sections
[15:20] <Laurenceb> these can be spun as reaction wheels
[15:20] <Laurenceb> *nosecone
[15:21] <Laurenceb> lots of fancy 3D geometery required
[15:21] <Laurenceb> to design it
[15:22] <Laurenceb> basically theres an interstage ring with three motors, each one spins two sections of folded back fairing
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[15:22] <Laurenceb> - motors at 120 degrees
[15:23] <Laurenceb> its got to be lighter than a CF launch tube
[15:24] <Laurenceb> as that requires a fairing anyway
[15:28] <Laurenceb> if you could do optical tracking, that would solve the problem of multiple ground stations
[15:29] <Laurenceb> - one of those motor guided scopes + cam
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> you mean as momentum wheels on the second stage?
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> first
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> to orient it for second stage launch
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> or on the second stage as actual guidance
[15:30] <Laurenceb> its a detatchable launch structure
[15:31] <Laurenceb> that pops off the front of the first stage
[15:31] <Laurenceb> with a sping
[15:32] <Laurenceb> *spring
[15:32] <Laurenceb> then uses a thermopile array and the momentum fairing wheels to get the right attitude, then uses a motor to spin up the second stage and fires it
[15:36] <Laurenceb> it sounds more complex but itd be more robust control wise
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> I suppose testing it isn't too bad.
[15:36] <Laurenceb> and considerably lighter
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> It should be sane just to test with a little camera, after being dropped from 30km?
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> see if it takes a picture of what it should.
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> actually - drag would be a problem even in only several seconds
[15:38] <Laurenceb> hmm itd only have a few seconds before dynamic pressure became significant
[15:38] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:38] <Laurenceb> wheras from 150Km you have 100 seconds to get it right
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> The nice thing about that solution is it's pretty scaleable - up at least
[15:39] <Laurenceb> the main advantage is that it has roll control
[15:40] <Laurenceb> also its legal in the sense it doesnt involve homerew solid propellant for a slow buring charge
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> you mean to give authority to thrust vectoring for a long period?
[15:40] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:41] <Laurenceb> so one main motor, then a slow burning charge in the top of the first stage for some attitude control authority before seperation
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[15:57] <Laurenceb> ok I think I've got it
[15:58] <Laurenceb> if you record the dopplers after drag becomes small, ie above 130Km or so, then you can solve for the position and velocity
[15:58] <Laurenceb> with only one ground station
[16:00] <Laurenceb> you need a bit of data, but you get about 120 seconds of data, so it should work
[16:12] <edmoore> rjharrison: ping
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> I hate neat theoretical solutions that 'just work'.
[16:16] Action: SpeedEvil prefers to massively overdetermine if at all possible.
[16:22] <Laurenceb> heh
[16:23] <Laurenceb> 120 seconds is a lot of data
[16:23] <Laurenceb> I think there is a symmetery sproblem
[16:23] <Laurenceb> but thats not a big issue
[16:23] <Laurenceb> it could be on your left or right basically
[16:26] <Laurenceb> hmm a fairing that folds into reaction wheels gets interesting
[16:26] <Laurenceb> wonder if theres any nice apps to help with this sort of thing
[16:26] <Laurenceb> and not google scetchup :P
[16:27] <SpeedEvil> Have you tried google-icbm ? :)
[16:28] <Laurenceb> lulz
[16:29] <Laurenceb> I think its possible to have 6 "petals" that fold out by about 60 degrees
[16:29] <Laurenceb> then you have three motors arranged around at 120 degree intervals about the interstage
[16:30] <Laurenceb> and your firing converts to three reaction wheels - everything you need
[16:30] <Laurenceb> but the precise geometery is _hard_
[16:31] <Laurenceb> has to unfirl and work without anything colliding ect
[16:33] <Laurenceb> but if it works then the tronics is crazy simple, IDG500, 8051/chipcon IC, and a thermopile array
[16:33] <Laurenceb> also requires an amplifier and voltage regs ect of course
[16:35] <Laurenceb> you could aim for GLOW <3.5Kg, with 500 grams of HAB kit giving <4Kg, so its launch from 32Km with two latex balloons
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[16:53] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: you can solve the doppler/time thing to get position and velocity using newton raphson I think
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[18:42] <Xenion> Hello everyone / Hallo alle miteinander :-)
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[19:48] <SpikeUK> Evening all! Urm. Got my radio amateur licence in t'post today. I'm G8IPN again!
[19:49] <edmoore> congrats :)
[19:49] <edmoore> got a radio to play with?
[19:50] <SpikeUK> edmoore - erm - several. FT290, FT790, FT690, IC22, .......
[19:51] <SpikeUK> It's antenna I'm short of ;0
[19:52] <SpikeUK> I had a nice mixture of 2m and 6m stuff in the loft until I took it all out to board it (the loft that is)
[19:52] <edmoore> 790!
[19:52] <edmoore> lovely
[19:53] <edmoore> our main balloon radio for about 2 years
[19:55] <SpikeUK> Just got the FT790 (on eBay) not had the chance to test it yet
[19:55] <SpikeUK> got it for - urm - tracking balloons ;-)
[20:05] <edmoore> i get my handheld tomorrow
[20:05] <edmoore> before 1om, according to helpful ebay man
[20:08] <SpikeUK> Good stuff edmoore - what rig's this?
[20:15] <edmoore> Yaesu VX-7R - got it as a bit of a steal, with a whole bunch of accessories
[20:18] <SpikeUK> Good stuff! Technology has moved on a bit since the FT790 ;-)
[20:22] <edmoore> it's still a great rig
[20:22] <edmoore> the ft817 seems to be the rig of choice in HAB now
[20:24] <SpikeUK> The FT817 looks good but it's a bit pricey!
[20:25] <SpikeUK> bbl
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[21:48] <rjharrison_home> evening all
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[00:00] --- Thu Aug 6 2009