highaltitude.log.20090804

[00:00] <Laurenceb> can it work as a slave?
[00:00] <SiC> i dont know
[00:00] <SiC> looking through the documentation i can't see anything
[00:00] <Laurenceb> hmf
[00:00] <SiC> but maybe?
[00:00] <SiC> lol
[00:00] <Laurenceb> you really need to drive the sige with a TCXO
[00:01] <Laurenceb> in which case the spi on the roboard needs to be slave
[00:01] <SiC> you probably need to do some of the processing on a FPGA imo
[00:02] <Laurenceb> the processor should be fast enough
[00:02] <Laurenceb> we got it down to about 20MHz/channel
[00:02] <Laurenceb> hmm I'd be tempted to stick a sige sampler or similar on the usb
[00:02] <SiC> but it would make it simpler to process some of the data
[00:03] <Laurenceb> too much hassle
[00:03] <SiC> as a minimum, the data could be clocked into the FPGA
[00:03] <SiC> and using that as a storage area
[00:03] <Laurenceb> thats the point of the sige sampler
[00:03] <Laurenceb> it has an 8051 based USB uC
[00:04] <Laurenceb> so can buffer the data and transfer it over usb
[00:04] <Laurenceb> also has a TCXO
[00:04] <SiC> ah ok
[00:04] <Laurenceb> did you get it working with a webcam?
[00:05] <Laurenceb> /usb cam
[00:05] <SiC> after much pain yea
[00:05] <SiC> but its wasnt fast
[00:05] <Laurenceb> hmm
[00:05] <SiC> windows was getting around 3fps. linux around 6-8fps
[00:05] <Laurenceb> I'd like to have a cam and a sige sampler on the usb
[00:05] <Laurenceb> not sure about the usb bandwidth
[00:05] <SiC> i have to say, we were mightly disapointed with it
[00:05] <SiC> it can apparently do 2.0
[00:06] <SiC> plus its not cheap
[00:07] <SiC> do the AD blackfins dsps come in nasty packages too?
[00:07] <SiC> +only
[00:09] <Laurenceb> think so
[00:09] <Laurenceb> hmm the sige sampler would need usb2.0
[00:09] <Laurenceb> there should be enough spare bandwidth for a cam as well surely
[00:11] <SiC> we wasnt sure if the cam drivers were a bit crap
[00:11] <SiC> we tried several
[00:11] edmoore (i=836f0142@gateway/web/freenode/x-jiifonqlzpysrmad) left irc: Ping timeout: 180 seconds
[00:11] <SiC> a £5 cheap asda one bluescreen windows and kernel panic linux
[00:12] <SiC> a philips job just outputted a green screen in linux
[00:12] <SiC> the quickcam worked
[00:12] <SiC> but under windows, the driver was using around 40-60% CPU
[00:12] <Laurenceb> eek
[00:14] <Laurenceb> how big is a quickcam?
[00:14] <SiC> not sure out of its case
[00:14] <SiC> but in it, its about 3cm-ish
[00:14] <Laurenceb> hmm ok
[00:14] Action: Laurenceb allocated 100 grams for tronics
[00:15] <Laurenceb> one trick is to have a seperate battery on the launch balloon, and only 20 minutes or so battery life onboard the rocket
[00:16] <SiC> yea
[00:16] <SiC> i assume you need your own GPS system because of the speed + height limits?
[00:16] <Laurenceb> not just that
[00:16] GeekShad__ (n=Antoine@41.149.69-86.rev.gaoland.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[00:17] <Laurenceb> the main problem is during the high accel during motor burn, I think an off the shelf receiver will drop sats
[00:17] <SiC> surely it'll be cheaper to test that?
[00:17] <Laurenceb> doppler shift and rate is very high
[00:17] <Laurenceb> yeah... a bit tricky
[00:17] <SiC> going down the integrated route is going to be expensive
[00:18] <Laurenceb> I can get acess to a machine
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> GPS is not very hard really
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> It was done in 1988 or something in Elektor
[00:20] <SiC> i dont know how GPS works on the low-level
[00:20] <SiC> but could it not be done on an ARM?
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> https://www.elektor-electronics.co.uk/projects/elektorwheelie.986808.lynkx
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> woo
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> on a big arm, yes.
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> there is a fair bit of stuff that DSPs are handy for
[00:21] Action: Laurenceb would prefer to get his hands on the rider
[00:21] <SiC> i saw that on the front cover on one of their mags
[00:22] <SiC> i bought it expecting to read about it and it was just an advert for the month after
[00:22] <SiC> :|
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> If I get on a vehicle like that, I want someone I can sue if I fall off.
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:23] <Laurenceb> guess I could make an SPI buffer with an AVR
[00:23] <SiC> didnt bush get on one and faceplanyt
[00:23] GeekShadow (n=Antoine@reactos/tester/GeekShadow) left irc: "The cake is a lie !"
[00:23] <SiC> because he didnt switch it on
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> People have actually been killed.
[00:24] <SiC> on segways?
[00:24] <SiC> ;o
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> http://justaskin.blogspot.com/2005/01/segway-death.html
[00:24] <SiC> they're really quite rediculously expensive
[00:25] <SpeedEvil> yes
[00:27] <SiC> http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P1066.html
[00:27] <SiC> pretty powerful
[00:27] <SiC> probably fiddly to integrate
[00:28] <SiC> -probably
[00:30] <SiC> http://www.atmel.com/products/diopsis/
[00:30] <SiC> looks like a interesting device
[00:30] <SiC> a similar idea to the TI davinic DSPs
[00:31] <SiC> High Performance: 1 billion floating point operations per second from the DSP, plus 220 MIPS from ARM
[00:39] <SiC> just reading through some of the library code for the RoBoard and come to some worrying comments:
[00:39] <SiC> return ad79x8_RawWrite(0x0000); //dummy write to avoid DX's SPI bug
[00:42] <Laurenceb> how many flops from the roboard?
[00:46] <SiC> i cant seem to find it
[00:46] <SiC> probably stareing at me
[00:46] <SiC> but tiredness is starting to take hold :(
[00:46] <Laurenceb> heh
[00:47] <Laurenceb> are the SPI buffer ICs ?
[00:47] <Laurenceb> - fifo buffer
[00:47] <SiC> yea appears to be in what i've seen
[00:48] <SiC> http://www.vortex86sx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/vortex86dx_block_internal.jpg
[00:48] <SiC> http://www.vortex86sx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/vortex86dx_block.png
[00:51] <SiC> ah ok i didnt relise that
[00:51] <SiC> the processor, north+south bridges are all in the same packag
[00:51] <SiC> e
[00:52] <Laurenceb> hmm I suspect the FIFO buffer is in seperate hardware
[00:52] <Laurenceb> so the buffer size will be small
[00:52] <SiC> the BIOS is a SPI flash chip
[00:52] <SiC> there is 2 spi interfaces, one for BIOS, one external (user)
[00:52] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:52] <SiC> the SD card for OS runs over the IDE module
[00:52] <Laurenceb> SD card comes off the IDE ?
[00:53] <SiC> yea
[00:56] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC03hmS1Brk
[01:07] <Laurenceb> aha * bit 6: =1 --> FIFO full (16 bytes)
[01:07] <Laurenceb> ok that sucks
[01:07] <Laurenceb> the spi is basically useless for gps
[01:08] <Laurenceb> could stick an analogue devices IMU on it I guess
[01:08] <SiC> what about a FIFO buffer into a shift register, as normally used by cameras?
[01:08] <SiC> (well FIFO buffer is used on cameras)
[01:09] <Laurenceb> no
[01:09] <Laurenceb> I'd use a real time linux kernel
[01:09] <Laurenceb> and have the guidance code running at ~1KHz
[01:09] <Laurenceb> so it has to store 1ms of gps data
[01:09] <SpeedEvil> Umm.
[01:09] <SpeedEvil> You're assuming you can read it in infinitely fast there.
[01:10] <Laurenceb> sure
[01:10] <Laurenceb> 1ms of data is a lot more than 16bytes
[01:10] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[01:10] <Laurenceb> so it wont work
[01:10] <Laurenceb> if you could get some sort of spi buffer it would
[01:11] <Laurenceb> data goes in at 16Mbps and out at 150bps
[01:11] <Laurenceb> 8Mbps
[01:11] <Laurenceb> *150Mbps
[01:12] <Laurenceb> need about 2KB of FIFO
[01:12] <SpeedEvil> where is this 150mbps claim?
[01:12] <SpeedEvil> I haven't seen it in the limited docs I've read
[01:13] <SiC> its in one of the datasheets, plus in http://www.roboard.com/Files/Code/RoBoIO-src-v1.5b-gcc.zip
[01:13] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
[01:13] <SiC> the SPI libraries in there
[01:14] <SiC> roboio\libsrc\spi.cpp
[01:14] <SiC> an array specifies the speed
[01:14] <Laurenceb> hmm wonder if such a buffer IC exists
[01:14] <SiC> shift register coupled to a FIFO?
[01:14] <SpeedEvil> That doesn't quite say that
[01:15] <Laurenceb> it has a clk mode for 150Mbps
[01:16] <SpeedEvil> yes
[01:16] <SpeedEvil> I've seen many chips that have clock registers that go up to speeds that the hardware can't actually do.
[01:17] <SiC> latency and other timing issues?
[01:18] <SpeedEvil> the pin drivers simply won't do 150MHz
[01:18] <Laurenceb> actually 75MHz
[01:18] <SpeedEvil> Or the circuitry round them won't.
[01:18] <SpeedEvil> 75?
[01:18] <Laurenceb> well a bit higher
[01:19] <Laurenceb> guess you could use the pci
[01:19] <SiC> like i said earlier about the board, it says its can do a lot of things
[01:20] <SiC> but doesnt come up with the goods, so i would agree that it probably can't do 150mhz
[01:20] <SpeedEvil> http://www.roboard.com/RB-100.htm
[01:20] <SpeedEvil> It does state it on the page
[01:20] <SpeedEvil> but unless someones actually tried it.
[01:21] <SiC> thats a straight lift from the vortex datasheet
[01:21] <Laurenceb> yeah
[01:23] <SiC> plus its a relatively new board with not a lot of people playing with it
[01:23] <SiC> and the documentation is pretty rubbish
[01:24] <SiC> so if you get stuck, your fairly alone
[01:24] <Laurenceb> apparently there are FIFO ICs
[01:24] <Laurenceb> so a bit of logic and it should be possible
[01:24] <SiC> yea they are used with camera ic's
[01:24] <SpeedEvil> I have not seen any SPI ones
[01:25] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[01:25] <SiC> interface to it with a shift register?
[01:25] <Laurenceb> yeah but you only need one direction
[01:25] <Laurenceb> and could use shift registers
[01:25] <SiC> the cmucam3 board uses it for its camera ic
[01:26] <SpeedEvil> Also
[01:26] <SiC> thats quite a large device
[01:26] <SpeedEvil> 150MHz - that's faster than I've seen any SPI
[01:26] <SiC> http://www.cmucam.org/attachment/wiki/Hardware/hw_architecture.gif?format=raw
[01:26] <SpeedEvil> So I'd doubt many chips will support going that fast
[01:27] <SiC> FIFO
[01:27] <SiC> * Capacity: AL440B (512KB) or AL4V8M440 (1MB)
[01:27] <SiC> * Max Rate: 50 FPS
[01:27] <SiC> probably a bit big for your purposes?
[01:27] <Laurenceb> yeah
[01:28] <SiC> The AL4V8M440 8Mbits (1,024k x 8-bit) FIFO memory provides completely independent 8bit
[01:28] <SiC> input and output ports that can operate at a maximum speed of 80 MHz.
[01:28] <SiC> i dont know how true that is obv
[01:28] <SiC> or just some datasheet lies
[01:29] <SiC> there is two versions, 50mhz and 80mhz, the 80mhz is designed for dtv/hdtv
[01:29] <SiC> so i guess it probably can do that speed
[01:29] <Laurenceb> http://eshop.engineering.uiowa.edu/NI/pdfs/00/95/DS009544.pdf
[01:29] <Laurenceb> something like that only bigger would work
[01:30] <Laurenceb> it has clocked serial in out
[01:30] <SiC> what speed is your data coming out as?
[01:32] <Laurenceb> 16Mbps
[01:32] <SiC> ah
[01:32] <SiC> so not that fast
[01:32] <SiC> well its fast, but not 150Mbps fast
[01:32] <SpeedEvil> does the robothing have 8 bit gpios?
[01:33] <SpeedEvil> I mean - go serial->parallel - 8 bit FIFO ->
[01:33] <SiC> yea i was thinking about that
[01:34] <SiC> but im struggling to find info
[01:34] <SiC> horrible website
[01:34] <SpeedEvil> I mean - minipci is fine - but data aquisition boards for it are damn near nonexistant
[01:34] <SiC> it has 40 GPIO pins
[01:35] <SiC> but they could be low speed
[01:35] <SiC> they're only on the southbridge
[01:35] <SiC> could you get a DAQ that runs over ethernet?
[01:35] <Laurenceb> yeah
[01:35] <Laurenceb> prob way too much work
[01:35] <Laurenceb> easier to use the usb
[01:35] <Laurenceb> but thats what I want to avoid
[01:36] <SiC> yea
[01:36] <SiC> if this is going in a rocket, then your relying on a USB connector to keep connected
[01:36] <SiC> unless you hardwire it in
[01:36] <SiC> but roboard+usb stick surely = £fairbit
[01:37] <SiC> and if the rocket fails and is lost...
[01:38] <Laurenceb> well the whole thing is about £5K
[01:38] <Laurenceb> so this is all pretty cheap
[01:38] <SiC> ok
[01:39] <SiC> i thought you was working to around 1k
[01:39] <Laurenceb> reusable first stage
[01:39] <SiC> maybe look into some dsp solution?
[01:39] <Laurenceb> I think it has to be usb
[01:39] <SiC> wether it be TI, AD or atmel
[01:39] <Laurenceb> or ditch the entire x86 idea and use a dsp yes
[01:39] <Laurenceb> then you can have nice stuff like DMA
[01:40] <SiC> i actually reckon you'll get faster performance out of a DSP
[01:40] <SiC> yea
[01:40] <Laurenceb> ok interesting
[01:40] <SiC> once you've got your head round trying to get a damn DMA working
[01:40] <Laurenceb> yeah
[01:40] <SiC> it'll clock all the data in for you at superquick speeds
[01:40] <SiC> while you process the last data
[01:40] <Laurenceb> thats why I thought this would be easier
[01:40] <Laurenceb> but the interfaces are rather sucky
[01:40] <SiC> and support
[01:41] <Laurenceb> well it looks better than most DSP stuff to me
[01:41] <SiC> true
[01:41] <Laurenceb> theres libraries and compilers ans math libs
[01:41] <Laurenceb> way better than a lot of dsp stuff
[01:41] <SiC> well with companies like TI, a company would go to them for help
[01:41] <SiC> TI have all maths libs
[01:41] <Laurenceb> but you have to pay ?
[01:41] <SiC> most are becoming free nowadays
[01:42] <Laurenceb> right
[01:42] <SiC> c6711 i used to work on had all the standard maths libs like FFT,etc free
[01:42] <Laurenceb> interesting
[01:43] <Laurenceb> blackfin looks good
[01:43] <SiC> yea
[01:43] <SiC> dont forget that these devices are beasts
[01:44] <SiC> even more complex than arms
[01:44] <Laurenceb> yeah
[01:44] <Laurenceb> thats why the x86 board is nice
[01:44] <SiC> you'll have to use the proper tools for them too
[01:44] <SiC> and all the proper libraries
[01:44] <Laurenceb> I'd be tempted to stick a gps on the usb and be done with it
[01:44] <SiC> they have huge thousands of pages of main datasheets
[01:44] <Laurenceb> yeah
[01:44] <SiC> then not far amount of erratas
[01:45] <SiC> +off in
[01:47] <SiC> http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/folders/print/sprc121.html
[01:47] <SiC> the pdf manual document is quite interesting in itself
[01:48] <SiC> the main maths library code is crafted in assembler
[01:48] <SiC> however the pdf has C equivilant
[01:48] <SiC> the TI DSP compiler is so bloody good, if you turn full optimisations on, it produces code so good from the C code that it is equivilant in performance to the hand-crafted assembly
[01:49] <SiC> you really need to get a commerical/academic partner for it though
[01:49] <SiC> to get cheap/free compilers,etc
[01:50] <Laurenceb> I see
[01:50] <Laurenceb> are all the ICs BGA ?
[01:50] <SiC> yup
[01:50] <SiC> dont forget you'll need external ram
[01:50] <SiC> plus a flash chip so it can read off the startup code
[01:50] <SiC> (which goes into the external ram)
[01:51] <SiC> which then can read in from a bigger piece of flash to boot the main program code
[01:51] <Laurenceb> its like a full blown PC :P
[01:51] <SiC> yer
[01:52] <SiC> its surprising what goes on
[01:52] <SiC> http://www.agd-systems.com/en/products/products.asp?app=Pedestrian&sub=Kerbside
[01:52] <SiC> thats the company i used to work for
[01:52] <SiC> both use TI DSP's
[01:52] <SiC> you'll see those detectors above traffic light crossings
[01:52] <SiC> basically detect when ped's are there or not
[01:53] <SiC> the new 640 is a stereo-vision based system
[01:53] <SiC> i wrote (worringly 8)) custom JPEG compression code
[01:53] <Laurenceb> seriously?!
[01:53] <SiC> for it
[01:53] <Laurenceb> I thoug it used a PIR sensor?
[01:53] <SiC> yea
[01:53] <SiC> nup
[01:54] <Laurenceb> crazyness
[01:54] <SiC> the original on-crossing detectors were
[01:54] <SiC> but they're crap
[01:54] <SiC> as soon as it gets hot
[01:54] <SiC> the ground gets too hot
[01:54] <SiC> and you cant tell a person
[01:54] <Laurenceb> yeah, or your stationary
[01:54] <SiC> the 625 gets affected by shadows
[01:54] <Laurenceb> guess once the code is written its cheap
[01:54] <Laurenceb> camera + DSP
[01:54] <SiC> and if you stand still long enough, it will phase you out
[01:54] <SiC> the new stereo vision one gets over that
[01:55] <SiC> well these things are sold for £650-700 odd each
[01:55] <Laurenceb> ah I can see the person standing out
[01:55] <Laurenceb> pretty expensive
[01:55] <SiC> the radars that detect cars coming, iirc sell for around £300-400odd each
[01:55] <Laurenceb> I was thinking aout 1/10 of that
[01:55] <Laurenceb> they have that as well ?!
[01:55] <Laurenceb> crazy
[01:55] <SiC> the yellow push button boxes on the traffic lights for the cheapest are £100
[01:56] <SiC> not for most of the radars
[01:56] <SiC> they are mostly dsPIC
[01:56] <Laurenceb> off to nick some traffic lights, bbl
[01:56] <Laurenceb> :P
[01:56] <Laurenceb> j/k
[01:56] <SiC> their new speed camera radar is a dsp though
[01:56] <Laurenceb> I thought they used induction loops in the road?
[01:56] <SiC> (currently in the american + aussie market)
[01:56] <SiC> some do
[01:56] <SiC> problem with induction, is its cheap to lay
[01:57] <SiC> but it suspediable to breakage
[01:57] <Laurenceb> yeah
[01:57] <SiC> plus to fix you need to dig up the road
[01:57] <SiC> if a radar breaks, you just get up a pole
[01:57] <SiC> you'll see a set of several loops upto a traffic light
[01:57] <Laurenceb> there seem to be induction loops in the pavements around here
[01:57] <Laurenceb> dont get that one
[01:58] <SiC> different systems are used (depends if its an individual light, or controlled by a central system)
[01:58] <SiC> but they generally count cars
[01:58] <SiC> we produced a radar called a AGD315 that can count cars through radar
[01:58] <SiC> and their positions
[01:58] <SiC> when stationary
[01:58] Action: SpeedEvil is also doing JPEG coding.
[01:58] <SpeedEvil> Fun.
[01:58] <SiC> but at £1500 a pop, its not cheap, even by road traffic standards
[01:58] <SiC> mostly for problem solving on areas where its far too expensive to dig roads up
[01:59] <SiC> cool SpeedEvil
[01:59] <SpeedEvil> Though in 20K of RAM, so I can't even do a frame at a time.
[01:59] <SiC> lol
[01:59] <SiC> i had 32MB yay 8D
[01:59] <SpeedEvil> Trying to make a nice friendly camera module.
[01:59] <Laurenceb> SiC: you an undergrad?
[01:59] <SiC> just graduated
[01:59] <SpeedEvil> That can be controlled over serial, parallel, or USB.
[01:59] <Laurenceb> ah cool, EE ?
[01:59] <SiC> i was undergrad when i worked for AGD
[01:59] <SiC> almost
[01:59] <SiC> Robotics
[01:59] <Laurenceb> oh ok
[01:59] <SiC> so kinda a cross-bred
[02:00] <Laurenceb> yeah
[02:00] <SiC> i could literally DMA a whole frames in and work them in big chunks
[02:00] <SpeedEvil> I hate the prospect of some sorts of robotic vision.
[02:00] <SiC> lol
[02:00] <SiC> what like?
[02:00] <SpeedEvil> For example - I'm really uncomfortable about traffic cameras - setup for streaming - but the company realises they can also sell live plate data.
[02:01] <SiC> ah ya
[02:01] <SiC> oh if anyone says btw
[02:01] <SpeedEvil> And those databases can then be required legally to be provided.
[02:01] <SiC> flashing a radar doesnt activate it or make the lights change quicker ;)
[02:01] <SiC> traffic master was one of the first to use number plates in the uk
[02:01] <Laurenceb> heh
[02:01] <SiC> those blue boxes on the side of the road
[02:01] <SpeedEvil> Bringing with them all the nasty concerns about data-mining.
[02:01] <SiC> however they were done when privacy was important
[02:01] <Laurenceb> those blue poles, are they cameras?
[02:02] <SiC> so they hash the number plates
[02:02] <SiC> yea
[02:02] <Laurenceb> oh ok
[02:02] <SiC> they take pictures and send them back to traffic master for processing
[02:02] <Laurenceb> IR?
[02:02] <SiC> number plate processing takes a lot of work
[02:02] <SpeedEvil> Combined with juries statistical ignorance...
[02:02] <SiC> they have IR too
[02:02] <SiC> thats for counting number of cars
[02:02] <SpeedEvil> It's all typed in by people in africa.
[02:02] <SpeedEvil> :)
[02:02] <SiC> lol
[02:02] <Laurenceb> I looked at some in my local area (Derbyshire) and they didnt appear to have cameras
[02:03] <SiC> they have massive data farms processing all them
[02:03] <SiC> they dont
[02:03] <SiC> (appear to)
[02:03] <Laurenceb> just looked like some sort of IR based device
[02:03] <SiC> thats the same with our detectors
[02:03] <SiC> stops people vandalising them
[02:03] <SiC> our detectors dont record anything
[02:03] <Laurenceb> crafty scumbags
[02:03] <Laurenceb> :P
[02:03] <SiC> infact all the processing comes down to one relay contact
[02:03] <SiC> that tells the traffic controller box if there is a person there or not :p
[02:04] <SpeedEvil> Though I note one 'computer transcription' service has recently got some people upset - when it was revealed that a large fraction of their transcriptions of voicemails are in fact done by humans.
[02:04] <SiC> lol
[02:04] <Laurenceb> whats the scituation with trafficmaster data then?
[02:04] <SiC> they take car count
[02:04] <SiC> and car plate images
[02:05] <SiC> convert it into text
[02:05] <SiC> hash it
[02:05] <Laurenceb> whos to stop them say posting all the number plates online?
[02:05] <Laurenceb> say
[02:05] <SiC> and then compare the hash against others around
[02:05] <SiC> to see how far people have traveled and when
[02:05] <SiC> well they can't just post number plates on with peoples location
[02:05] <SpeedEvil> Anoter fun one in the states.
[02:05] <SiC> captia in london do all the congestion charge
[02:05] <Laurenceb> I can setup a webcam
[02:05] <SiC> its literally like a fort to get in
[02:06] <SpeedEvil> Some states are requiring tyre pressure monitoring systems.
[02:06] <SiC> cause they obviously know the wareabouts of not only the queen
[02:06] <SiC> but any MP, etc
[02:06] <SpeedEvil> Tyre pressure monitoring systems are RF transmitters.
[02:06] <Laurenceb> hmm
[02:06] <SiC> lol
[02:06] <SpeedEvil> Setup a small box next to a road, and you've got all the cars nicely broadcasting their IDs.
[02:06] Action: Laurenceb suspects there is a backdoor into trafficmaster
[02:06] <SiC> we did consider the idea of scanning for bluetooth modules
[02:06] <SiC> as handsfree kits are popular in cars
[02:07] <SiC> find the MAC address, and then use that as a very cheap system to track travel times
[02:07] <Laurenceb> the data would be very useful for some
[02:07] <SiC> tbh, most technology can be used for both good and bad purposes :|
[02:07] <SiC> well its very useful to find where people go most at what time
[02:07] <SiC> so roads are restructured better
[02:08] <Laurenceb> yeah sure
[02:08] <Laurenceb> but when its so secret
[02:08] <SiC> and if there is traffic jams, then the police can be proactive and find out
[02:08] <SpeedEvil> When it's so secret - and there are no published methods of review.
[02:08] <Laurenceb> I never realised they had number plate recognition
[02:08] <SiC> yea
[02:08] <SiC> i agree
[02:08] <SiC> there needs to be more openness
[02:08] <SpeedEvil> Which is a main concern with the DNA database.
[02:09] <SiC> your numberplate is read everywhere
[02:09] <Laurenceb> they deliberately made it look like some sort of passive/active IR device
[02:09] <SiC> along the m4 going to bristol there are many cameras checking for road tax evasion
[02:09] <SpeedEvil> There are no good statistical studies on large DNA databases that might make it easier to challenge.
[02:09] <Laurenceb> that sort of thing is more obvious
[02:09] <SiC> problem is, if its obvious a camera, people start assuming things
[02:09] <SiC> and then worrying about things
[02:09] <SiC> like our detectors
[02:10] <SpeedEvil> Of course - in 10 years.
[02:10] <SpeedEvil> Or 20 years.
[02:10] <SiC> if people thought it was a camera, all sorts would be thrown up
[02:10] <SiC> but tbh, we can't give a damn if someone is pulling a moony or something at it
[02:10] <SpeedEvil> When the price of networking your cameras was maybe 10p/camera, not 100 quid - ...
[02:10] <SiC> alongs as it detcts someone there :p
[02:10] <SpeedEvil> Does it try to detect human shapes only?
[02:11] <SpeedEvil> Laser-pointers on the ground forex.
[02:11] <SiC> which one
[02:11] <SiC> the 625 looks, basically, for changes in the image
[02:11] <SpeedEvil> the people detector.
[02:11] <SiC> hence why shadows trick it
[02:11] <SiC> and the 640 looks on height
[02:11] <SiC> so a wheelie bin can confuse both
[02:11] <Laurenceb> surely it ignores something thats stationary for hours
[02:12] <SiC> yea
[02:12] <SiC> well after a few minutes
[02:12] <SiC> it fades out into the background
[02:12] <SiC> plus they should (most probably arent) be set up
[02:12] <SiC> so they only look at relevant areas, i.e. the crossing zone
[02:12] <SiC> we much rather detect something is there, than trying to look for a person and not detecting them
[02:13] <SpeedEvil> This is so people don't have to press buttons?
[02:13] <SiC> our original detectors, the 620's, you see them a lot around, were a B&W camera and a PIC 18F
[02:13] <SiC> they couldnt see old grey haired grannies :p
[02:13] <SiC> kinda
[02:13] <SiC> you still press a button
[02:13] <Laurenceb> a lot of trouble
[02:13] <SiC> but say, if little jonny runs away
[02:13] <SiC> it cycles the lights quicker
[02:13] <SpeedEvil> ah.
[02:14] <Laurenceb> to avoid pranksters
[02:14] <SiC> there is also radars to detect on-crossing
[02:14] <SiC> as people walk across
[02:14] <Laurenceb> people show up on radar?
[02:14] <SiC> so drivers arent stuck at traffic lights with no-one on the crossing
[02:14] <SiC> yea
[02:14] <SiC> the vehicle radars just look for faster speeds than ped's
[02:14] <Laurenceb> this is dopper radar?
[02:15] <SiC> the vehicle and peds is doppler
[02:15] <Laurenceb> ah
[02:15] <SiC> the 315 that detects stationary vehicles is FMCW (iirc)
[02:15] <SpeedEvil> There are radar - doppler radar - people detectors
[02:15] <SpeedEvil> more reliable - though more expensive than PIR
[02:15] <SpeedEvil> I've got a couple somewhere.
[02:15] <SiC> you'll be surprised
[02:15] <SpeedEvil> Little tunnel diode and mixer.
[02:15] <SiC> the original radars used gunn diodes
[02:16] <SiC> modern ones use planar atennas
[02:16] <SpeedEvil> not seen that sort
[02:16] <SiC> without giving too much info away and getting my self into trouble (:P)
[02:16] <SpeedEvil> makes sense.
[02:16] <SiC> they were bought in from an external company
[02:16] <SiC> as making planar attennas is no easy job
[02:16] <SpeedEvil> several GHz has gotten _much_ easier to make in the past couple of decades with transistors.
[02:17] <SpeedEvil> I wonder when we'll see solid state microwave ovens.
[02:17] <SiC> http://www.agd-systems.com/en/products/products.asp?app=Vehicle&sub=AboveSignActivation&selected=AGD330
[02:17] <SpeedEvil> Still a long way otu
[02:17] <SpeedEvil> out
[02:17] <SiC> you can see the module on that one
[02:17] <SiC> well the advantage is, is its a lot lower power
[02:17] <Laurenceb> oh those things
[02:17] <SiC> http://www.agd-systems.com/en/products/products.asp?app=Vehicle&sub=Enforcement thats the new speed radar for america + aussie
[02:18] <Laurenceb> they all got vandilised in my area :P
[02:18] <SiC> it had an unintended effect of being very low power
[02:18] <SiC> just happened to be the technique and module we used
[02:18] <SiC> but all the radar detector units in cars struggle to see them
[02:18] <SiC> till its too late :o
[02:18] <SiC> lol Laurenceb
[02:19] <SiC> the temporary traffic light version is designed to be run over by a lorry
[02:19] <Laurenceb> they've been taken down now :P
[02:19] <SiC> http://www.agd-systems.com/en/img/products/206.jpg thats the new planar version
[02:19] <SiC> a lot smaller
[02:20] <Laurenceb> looks familar
[02:20] <Laurenceb> thats what traffic master cameras look like
[02:20] <SiC> yea
[02:20] <Laurenceb> crafty
[02:20] <SiC> theres no cameras in our radars at all
[02:21] <SiC> the reason why they all have to be decreate
[02:21] <Laurenceb> thats what you want us to think
[02:21] <SiC> otherwise it'll get very expensive to repair
[02:21] <Laurenceb> WAKE UP SHEEPLE !!
[02:21] <SiC> lol
[02:22] <SiC> bugger @ the time
[02:22] <SiC> nn!
[02:22] <SpeedEvil> nn
[02:22] <Laurenceb> cya
[02:22] <SiC> (i dont actually work for that company anymore mind
[02:22] <SiC> i was supposed to go back, but the uni offered me more money ;o
[02:22] <SiC> oh well
[02:22] <Laurenceb> me too, off
[02:22] <SiC> nn!
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[02:29] <SpeedEvil> The Performance Tester is now testing Broadband connection. Your configured download throughput speed for this service is 135 k
[02:29] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[02:30] Action: SpeedEvil stabs BT, openreach, plusnet, the rate adaption algorightm and OFDM.
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[18:00] <Laurenceb> hi
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[18:13] <RocketBoy> BBL
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[19:08] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: I was looking at a system they used on some of the early US launches, a transceiver onboard the vehicle and three ground stations - you use doppler and ranging to find position and velocity - all calculated on the ground, then uplink to the vehicle. Theres mechanical gyros onboard and control loops for attitude control. These are then biased using the uplinked commands
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[19:16] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:19] <DanielRichman> evening
[19:19] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: that was more or less what I was meaning with the (way) above laser ranger comment
[19:21] <Laurenceb> I think its possible to solve the problem using just one ground station
[19:21] <Laurenceb> if you have mago, accel, and gyros onboard
[19:24] <Laurenceb> at first stage burnout you have a pretty good idea of position (+-1Km or so), but not of velocity
[19:25] <Laurenceb> but you can use the doppler and magno together with the accel reading of drag induced decelleration to solve for velocity
[19:25] <Laurenceb> then you can find the apogee point when you need to fire the second stage
[19:28] <SpeedEvil> you're neglecting GPS?
[19:29] <Laurenceb> yes
[19:30] <Laurenceb> well you need it on the hab to find launch position
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[19:32] <Laurenceb> would have to write some sim code to see how numerically stable and how its effected by errors
[19:39] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[19:39] <edmoore> I am mere seconds away from buying a handheld
[19:40] <edmoore> doug just bought one and posted a video of him picking up A)-51 with just a whip
[19:40] <edmoore> show 'em djellison
[19:40] <djellison> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_pqTlhN8ss
[19:40] <djellison> Not ANY Whip....the bog standard one out the box :0
[19:41] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: affected
[19:41] <Laurenceb> ok ok
[19:41] <Laurenceb> :P
[19:41] <Laurenceb> spelling nazi ect
[19:41] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[19:41] <jcoxon> i've seen
[19:42] <jcoxon> very impressed
[19:42] <djellison> Give an idiot some technology - and wonders will never cease
[19:43] <Laurenceb> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rxKjDLO5gW4/SU9xesdz5WI/AAAAAAAABAg/ibvq3Ad-33E/s320/Bush+Covered+Binoculars+002.jpg
[19:43] <Laurenceb> ^proof
[19:44] <djellison> I've got some way to go. I've spent 5 minutes whistling and humming at FL Digi to watch the pretty waterfall :)
[19:45] <jcoxon> djellison, i can send you some wav files
[19:45] <jcoxon> to stop you looking insane
[19:45] <djellison> Actually - that would be a great idea
[19:45] <djellison> so I know I've got it working.
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> I dunno. There are binocs that look more or less like that from the side - it's to catch glints
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> diddn't see the little rubber straps
[19:45] <djellison> I'll probably switch to my netbook ( once I've put vanilla XP back on it) for radio 'stuff'
[19:47] <jcoxon> djellison, done
[19:47] <djellison> Brilliant
[19:49] <jcoxon> djellison, you need to fillin the callsign box
[19:49] <jcoxon> its more callsign/nickname
[19:49] <jcoxon> it allows us to identify your data
[19:52] <edmoore> djellison: just having another look at that alinco
[19:52] <edmoore> tis way too expensive though :)
[19:53] <djellison> You can justify it. Nearly
[19:54] <edmoore> not even close
[19:54] <edmoore> £350!
[19:58] <djellison> True
[19:58] <djellison> You could have an 'it'll do the job' handie 2nd hand for <£150
[19:58] <edmoore> well + accessories, that's basically what I'm getting with this ebay deal
[19:59] <edmoore> hence the temptation
[19:59] <edmoore> and co-ordinating launch on the ground through FM simplex and the GB£PY repeater was really bloody brilliant last time
[19:59] <edmoore> it helped us loads
[19:59] <edmoore> so handhelds for launches are a real boon
[19:59] <jcoxon> edmoore, could of done it with mobiles :-p
[19:59] <edmoore> yes, but slower and they cost!
[20:00] <edmoore> being able to talk to all the chase cars at once through the repeater is nice :)
[20:00] <jcoxon> driving + radio is such a bad idea
[20:00] <jcoxon> :-p
[20:01] <edmoore> legal though :)
[20:02] <gordonjcp> edmoore: see if you can pick up any 137-154MHz Motorola handies ;-)
[20:03] <edmoore> do they do CTCSS?
[20:03] <gordonjcp> old (GP300 range) 148-174 ones can be tuned down to 145, with a bit of hacking
[20:03] <gordonjcp> yes
[20:03] <gordonjcp> they're not quite as straightforward as eight or sixteen channels - they have "modes" that define a channel set, CTCSS set and optionally 5-tone set
[20:07] <djellison> Anyhoo - pub quiz time. Night everyone
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[20:08] <jcoxon> bbl
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[20:41] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
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[21:02] <rjharrison_home> Ping rjharrison
[21:02] <rjharrison_home> hehe
[21:02] <rjharrison_home> Ping RocketBoy
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[21:16] <rjharrison_home> Yo edmoore
[21:16] <edmoore> hi rjharrison_home
[21:16] <rjharrison_home> Did you get my text
[21:16] <edmoore> yes thank you - i guess we'll just have to live with it
[21:16] <edmoore> will try and source those bits elswhere
[21:16] <edmoore> it's nothing mega crucial
[21:17] <rjharrison_home> The AVR is cool that's the arduino one which is the same as on icarus III
[21:18] <edmoore> and not by accident....
[21:18] <edmoore> :)
[21:18] <rjharrison_home> Is that so you can access some of the code out there
[21:19] <edmoore> well, want this board to be hackable very easily
[21:19] <edmoore> so i'll write a basic arduino app that makes it into a dumb gps->radio tracker
[21:35] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
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[21:45] <RocketBoy> rjharrison_home: you pinged (some while ago)
[21:46] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
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[22:10] <rjharrison_home> RocketBoy pong
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[22:11] <edmoore> RocketBoy: ping
[22:12] <edmoore> ok, I am buying this handheld. 3 x Carlsberg and now I'm ready
[22:13] <rjharrison_home> lol
[22:14] <edmoore> bough
[22:14] <edmoore> bought*
[22:14] <edmoore> good lord
[22:14] <edmoore> i just spent £250
[22:14] <Laurenceb> you in the bar?
[22:14] <Laurenceb> churchill bar is awsome :p
[22:15] <edmoore> I know!
[22:15] <edmoore> awesome for leading my astray
[22:15] <Laurenceb> heh if I was there I'd never get any work done :D
[22:15] <edmoore> still, it's a lovely handheld with a whole bunch of accessories. Would cost loads to add all the accessories myself
[22:21] <edmoore> Laurenceb: yeah it's good innit. Between that and brunch, it's ideal for HABing
[22:23] <edmoore> now for doug to sell the idea of an arrow antenna to me
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:27] <edmoore> Churchill Brunch has become a bit of a UKHAS institution
[22:30] Action: Laurenceb is finally putting the finishing touches on the chipcon/ublox test hab
[22:30] <Laurenceb> ublox5 is a bit of a touchy beast
[22:30] <Laurenceb> needs very stable power supply regulation it seems
[22:31] <Laurenceb> and also has a habit of chucking high frequency noise out onto the rails
[22:34] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: for n-prize you could try just an 8 bit micro, chipcon transceiver, idg500 dual rate gyro and a transponder of some sort - have this double as the sat and guidance
[22:34] <Laurenceb> then use the three ground station approach
[22:34] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> can the chipcon thingy handle the RTT?
[22:35] <Laurenceb> fergus thinks so
[22:35] <Laurenceb> it looks to me like you cant get below 2.4Kbps
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> I did a ballpark design for a silly 20G sat
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> including bat+camera+...
[22:36] <Laurenceb> I guess if you transmit 000000 and then adjust the carrier
[22:36] <Laurenceb> I'm not sure how reliable three ground stations are going to be
[22:37] <Laurenceb> one screw up at a ground station and your screwed
[22:37] <Laurenceb> so to speak :P
[22:37] <SpeedEvil> five ground stations
[22:37] <Laurenceb> arggg
[22:38] <Laurenceb> not sure if you can use internet to talk between them either
[22:38] <Laurenceb> gues it would work
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> damn.
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> I forgot that URL
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[22:38] <SpeedEvil> It's a network of lightning stations.
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> That uses PPS GPS and time-of-arrival to tie down lightning strikes to +-100m or so
[22:38] <Laurenceb> yeah
[22:39] <Laurenceb> thats the sort of thing youd be needing
[22:39] <Laurenceb> guess if you have four stations it gets easier
[22:39] <Laurenceb> as you only need a transmitter
[22:39] <Laurenceb> so you can use the telemetery from the chipcon IC onboard
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> Seeing how well you can track a launch of a _teeny_ rocket at 100G or so would be a good start
[22:40] <Laurenceb> youd need to automate everything
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[22:41] <Laurenceb> frequency tracking, data transfer between stations ect
[22:42] <Laurenceb> but if it worked your rocket mass could go down to 2Kg GLOW or so
[22:42] <Laurenceb> single 1000gram latex balloon to 30Km :P
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> how?
[22:43] <RocketBoy> edmoore: what did U buy?
[22:43] <edmoore> Yaesu vx-7r
[22:43] <edmoore> ebay special
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> you mean by simply drastically reducing electronics mass?
[22:43] <Laurenceb> yes
[22:44] <edmoore> (2nd hand, plus a whole bunch of accessories)
[22:44] <Laurenceb> about 150 grams gets taken off the first stage
[22:44] <Laurenceb> that allows the entire thing to shrink
[22:44] <RocketBoy> cool little rig
[22:46] <edmoore> yeah - I was torn between that and the THF7E but this ebay deal was really good
[22:48] <RocketBoy> thats a tough choice - the vx-7r gives you 6m - but the THF7E gives wide RX and SSB
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[22:52] <RocketBoy> nights
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[23:04] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: you could get away with an IMU onboard the HAB launch platform, then just a chipcon transceiver, 8bit micro and a idg500 dual rate gyro as the guidance
[23:05] <Laurenceb> before launch it works out the attitude as the launch tube bangles under the balloon, then as it launches the first stage is turned into the right attitude
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> I was using as a baseline for my thingy a STM32 micro - BGA - with a BGA RAM and SD card
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> for the sat
[23:06] <Laurenceb> the ground stations work out when its reached apogee
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> I would want to work out the drift at 100G of the gyros
[23:06] <Laurenceb> its about 30G on the first stage
[23:07] <Laurenceb> then the ground control fires a small slow buring charge
[23:08] <Laurenceb> measures the change in velocity and uses that to get the stage lined up for stage two firing
[23:08] <Laurenceb> it needs >= 4 ground stations
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[23:09] <Laurenceb> do you have a compiler setup for STM32?
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> no
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> AIUI GCC works OK
[23:09] <Laurenceb> if you can set it up
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> ?
[23:09] <Laurenceb> which is a PITA
[23:19] <Laurenceb> anyway its an interesting idea
[23:20] <Laurenceb> it probably wouldnt be worth recovering the 1st stage
[23:26] <Laurenceb> not sure if n-prize includes the price of the payload?
[23:29] <Laurenceb> also you coulnt use HAM kit for the radio
[23:29] <Laurenceb> would need something with 20KHz or more bandwidth
[23:29] <Laurenceb> GNU radio would work
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[23:31] <Laurenceb> http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/08/aresix/
[23:41] <Laurenceb> can you modify a scanner to get 10KHz of bandwidth?
[23:45] <SpeedEvil> don't some already do that?
[23:45] Action: SpeedEvil sighs at the whole ares thing.
[23:45] <SpeedEvil> 'Let's radically rethink our space program'
[23:45] <SpeedEvil> 'I know - we'll make a rocket with about the same $/Kg cost to orbit as all the others since 1960'.
[23:46] <Laurenceb> hmm velocity at burnout is something like 3.2Km/sec
[23:47] <Laurenceb> just under 10KHz doppler
[23:47] <Laurenceb> got to be possible with a scanner
[23:47] <Laurenceb> - at 868MHz
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> or simply command the scanner to diff freq
[23:47] <Laurenceb> yeah
[23:48] <Laurenceb> you know roughtly what the rockets going to do - if it works
[23:49] <russss> heh
[23:49] <russss> surely commerical investment in space will sort this out soon
[23:49] <Laurenceb> unfortunately n prize works out about the same $/Kg
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> well - yes
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> but that's irrelevant
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> as if you scale most n-prize class ideas - not the hardware - you don't end up with $10K/Kg
[23:51] <SpeedEvil> Consider that the shuttles (liquid) fuel is ~250K
[23:51] <SpeedEvil> And the launch cost is about 4 orders of magnitude over that
[23:51] <Laurenceb> yeah
[23:52] Action: SpeedEvil needs a waterproof bluetooth keyboard.
[23:53] <Laurenceb> lol why?
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> bath
[23:53] <Laurenceb> your on IRC in the bath?
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> no
[23:53] <Laurenceb> thats ok then
[23:53] <Laurenceb> :P
[23:54] <russss> interorbital systems seem to be at a better level with their tubesats though
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> It's an interesting datapoint.
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> yes
[23:54] <russss> assuming they actually succeed in getting into orbit...
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> However - still $10K/lb (ish)
[23:55] <Laurenceb> russss: I've been working on a design using high power rocketry motors
[23:55] <Laurenceb> two stage, first with gymballed nozzle, second spin stabilised
[23:55] <SpeedEvil> What would be really cool would be if they'd offer cheap launches to those willing to writeup all their hardware and results on wiki
[23:56] <russss> yeah, their cost is probably about $8000/kg all in, I guess
[23:56] <SpeedEvil> However - this may be illegal
[23:56] <Laurenceb> as I understand it they havent built anything yet
[23:56] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[23:56] <Laurenceb> what may be?
[23:57] <Laurenceb> writing up a sat construction on a wiki?
[23:58] <russss> I think the key is, that if they're offering launches for payloads of less than 1kg, then there'll be much more demand which may drive prices down further
[23:59] <russss> whereas most commercial companies wouldn't be interested if you wanted to launch a <1kg satellite
[00:00] --- Wed Aug 5 2009