highaltitude.log.20090725

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[00:30] <Laurenceb> rjharrison: ping
[00:35] <Laurenceb> :-/
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[00:36] <Laurenceb> hi edmoore
[00:37] <edmoore> hi
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[02:02] <qbert55> Hi guys, was invited here by Natrium. I presently have a powered glider project that we hope to get to 80K sometime in the next year. So far we've done several low altitude flights but need info on sevos, and batteries for the high altitude flights. Any info is welcome...
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[02:11] <SpeedEvil> qbert55: I've raised concerns about li-po performance in the lack of any external pressure - the possible risk of bulging the cells.
[02:11] <SpeedEvil> This is reduced by the temperature - but is probably a concern that should be looked at.
[02:11] <SpeedEvil> Feet I assume?
[02:12] <qbert55> yes
[02:12] <qbert55> I'm old school
[02:13] <SpeedEvil> Also - lots of electronics fails at -40C or so - a insulated little box is generally a good plan
[02:13] <qbert55> we have flown our powered glider to 10K using a soon to be on market Autopilot
[02:13] <SpeedEvil> Maybe with a heater in, to avoid having to insulate it too much.
[02:14] <SpeedEvil> or a fan to keep it cool near the ground
[02:14] <qbert55> Not a lot of room in our stratogulp
[02:14] <SpeedEvil> Plenty of room once you spread it out over a field :)
[02:15] <qbert55> thanks...
[02:15] <SpeedEvil> At -50C - radios can go way out of tune, servos will often stop working due to frozen grease, and many sorts of battery will raise in impedence.
[02:16] <qbert55> we have a special grease for the servos
[02:16] <SpeedEvil> Also - in your app - icing may be an issue
[02:16] <qbert55> I'm using a Xtend 900mhz radio which has been proven at these altitudes
[02:17] <SpeedEvil> altitudes and temperatures?
[02:17] <SpeedEvil> Cold soak can be a problem
[02:17] <qbert55> we though about the pitot tube but have not come up with an answer yet
[02:17] <SpeedEvil> it can work briefly.
[02:17] <SpeedEvil> But will it work for an hour or two at -40C
[02:18] <qbert55> we have had everything overnight at -40 with little problem
[02:18] <SpeedEvil> k
[02:18] <SpeedEvil> how? just a very cold freezer?
[02:18] <qbert55> i live in a very cold place in the winter
[02:18] <SpeedEvil> -40C?
[02:19] <qbert55> Cold Lkae AB Canada -45 for two weeks last year
[02:19] <qbert55> Lake
[02:20] <qbert55> It' the altitudes I'm worried about
[02:20] <qbert55> temps are easy to work with testing 80K is a little harder
[02:20] <SpeedEvil> I'm slightly north of you actually
[02:20] <SpeedEvil> :)
[02:20] <SpeedEvil> But _much_ warmer.
[02:20] <qbert55> Canada?
[02:21] <SpeedEvil> Gulf stream ++
[02:21] <SpeedEvil> Scotland
[02:21] <SpeedEvil> Generally, all of the failures of stuff we've had seem to be temperature related
[02:21] <qbert55> Hey a cousin from wayyyyyyy back!!!
[02:21] <qbert55> how high have you been
[02:21] <SpeedEvil> Not pressure
[02:22] <SpeedEvil> I've not actually flown anything - the peeps in the channel.
[02:22] <qbert55> OK
[02:22] <SpeedEvil> Most flights go over 27km
[02:22] <qbert55> feet?
[02:22] <SpeedEvil> m
[02:23] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ukhas.org.uk/launches
[02:23] <qbert55> I ment how many feet, about 88K
[02:24] <SpeedEvil> camera?
[02:24] <qbert55> N showed me the site the other day, sill working on going through it
[02:24] <SpeedEvil> datalink?
[02:24] <qbert55> Not with the small bird
[02:24] <qbert55> 900mhz xtend radio
[02:25] <SpeedEvil> will that do vertical range * about 2?
[02:25] <SpeedEvil> bidirectional?
[02:25] <qbert55> believe it or not we intend the bird to come home to use instead of having to chase it
[02:25] <SpeedEvil> That's often the intent :)
[02:25] <qbert55> yup two way coms to 30 miles
[02:26] <SpeedEvil> Also - verify that you don't get RFI problems at maximum power transmission with any of your sensors or GPS
[02:26] <qbert55> I thought most of these guys were just going up , taking a few pics and coming back by parachute
[02:26] <SpeedEvil> What's your control? gyros+accel+GPS +kalman, or is IR in there?
[02:27] <SpeedEvil> well - we have one person attempting rolaglos.
[02:27] <qbert55> we have 2 versions
[02:27] <SpeedEvil> Though prediction has gotten a _lot_ better on landing
[02:27] <SpeedEvil> You have looked at upper atmosphere speeds?
[02:27] <qbert55> first was IR and wokes good but has some limitations
[02:27] <qbert55> works
[02:27] <SpeedEvil> you can often get velocities that will be over a gliders forward speed
[02:28] <SpeedEvil> At least in the UK - not looked at canada
[02:28] <qbert55> second is ful 6DOF IMU and to date works with out hitch
[02:28] <qbert55> how about 250MPH in a dive
[02:29] <qbert55> can be that and more when the jet stream is overhead
[02:29] <SpeedEvil> http://www.members.shaw.ca/sonde/ you?
[02:30] <qbert55> no
[02:30] <qbert55> that's another guy
[02:31] <qbert55> I started working on a way to get High powered rockets back to the llaunch site in 2003 and this is where it's led me
[02:32] <qbert55> I have a steam powered rocket that can exceed 16K but they won't let me fly it unless I can tell them where it will land.
[02:33] <SpeedEvil> laurenceb and me are sort of looking at designs for actual orbital.
[02:33] <SpeedEvil> It's tricky :)
[02:33] <qbert55> soI had a buddy build an autopilot for a parachute and the story continues
[02:33] <SpeedEvil> (though not anywhere close to actual funding, or hardware)
[02:33] <SpeedEvil> seen n-prize?
[02:33] <qbert55> Nope
[02:34] <qbert55> my rocket really flies, we've done a 2.5 mile high flight with it
[02:35] <qbert55> but they won'y let me go again until I come up with where it will land
[02:35] <SpeedEvil> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/predict/index.php
[02:35] <SpeedEvil> balloon path predictor - useful maybe for looking at where it gets the data for for your models
[02:36] <SpeedEvil> To make sure you are likely to recover it
[02:36] <SpeedEvil> is this thing powered, or thermaling?
[02:36] <qbert55> seen that, but never thought of that use for it
[02:37] <qbert55> goes up by balloon comes down under powered glide
[02:37] <SpeedEvil> ah
[02:37] <SpeedEvil> seems quite applicable hten
[02:37] <qbert55> we used that to get to where we are today
[02:37] <SpeedEvil> a major issue is assuring you get cutdown before the balloon bursts
[02:38] <qbert55> done a half dozen 10K flights
[02:38] <SpeedEvil> Otherwise you may get wrapped in bits of balloon.
[02:38] <qbert55> use good balloons
[02:38] <SpeedEvil> Which isn't that much of an issue for a box in a chute - but will screw gliders :)
[02:39] <qbert55> considered but never concerned much about it, to date...
[02:39] <qbert55> what's the rules over there for high altitude
[02:40] <SpeedEvil> Basically - you need to notify that you might be launching - then 5 min before launch - it's not a big issue
[02:40] <qbert55> max weight, size???
[02:40] <SpeedEvil> but there are stringent limits on tx
[02:41] <qbert55> ya, I'm aware of the TX problem over there
[02:41] <SpeedEvil> Basically aeromobile ham transmission is not allowed
[02:41] <qbert55> Not cool
[02:41] <SpeedEvil> I think some of the payloads have been up to 3Kg.
[02:41] <SpeedEvil> I'm not sure of the legal limits
[02:41] <qbert55> here we can go with anything thats comercialy legal
[02:42] <qbert55> here it's 115Cu Ft of gas
[02:42] <SpeedEvil> in some ways this is rational.
[02:42] <SpeedEvil> At least for >HF
[02:42] <SpeedEvil> As we're getting several hundred Km range for 10mW 433MHz.
[02:43] <SpeedEvil> If we were able to simply wind up the power to - say - 50W - and send video not 50bps - it'd interfere with stuff on the ground to a significant extent
[02:43] <SpeedEvil> whereas a 50W transmitter on the ground won't really
[02:44] <qbert55> we are allowed up to 1 Watt with the Extend modems or 10mw with most anything else
[02:44] <qbert55> we don't use 433mhz anymore
[02:44] <qbert55> 900mhz 1.2, 2.4 and 5.8 are the big ones now
[02:45] <SpeedEvil> I've looked at 802.11a for data to my UAV
[02:45] <SpeedEvil> with a biggish dish on hte bottom.
[02:45] <SpeedEvil> Think 1Kg helicopter optimised for vertical climb.
[02:46] <qbert55> we use 500mw on the extend and get a solid 30 miles
[02:46] <qbert55> wow
[02:46] <SpeedEvil> Ascends to 4Km, takes 1Gp panorama, descends.
[02:46] <SpeedEvil> and is ready to go again in 15 min
[02:46] <qbert55> cool, Picturs please???
[02:46] <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately they aren't very good yet.
[02:46] <SpeedEvil> As the bits I have are still in boxes :)
[02:47] <qbert55> I fly my Electro Telemaster for 45 min on 8000mah and still only get to 4500 feet. we use the IR autopilot on it
[02:48] <SpeedEvil> I came to the conclusion that with modern motors and batteries, forgoing the wings totally isn't an irrational choice.
[02:49] <SpeedEvil> Hence basically a horsepower into the motor of a 1Kg device.
[02:49] <qbert55> yup and I love every minute of it......
[02:50] <SpeedEvil> Aiming at 10-20m/s ascent.
[02:50] <SpeedEvil> The fun part is avoiding smacking into the ground inverted under power :)
[02:50] <SpeedEvil> And landing on the takeoff spot
[02:51] <qbert55> Here is the old autopilot, My buddy Dean made these but he's now just making the IMU version http://attopilot.com/
[02:51] <qbert55> must be past midnight over there
[02:51] <SpeedEvil> I have _way_ too many sensors on V1's.
[02:52] <qbert55> we just use XYand Z
[02:52] <qbert55> pluse GPS and a battery monitor
[02:52] <SpeedEvil> 3 axis magnetometer, 3 axis accel (3 of), 6 IR, 4-6 differential pitots, GPS, 3 axis gyro, absolute pressure.
[02:53] <SpeedEvil> Basically to see what the needed set of sensors is, and what I can live without
[02:53] <SpeedEvil> and to get good information in the case of crashes :/
[02:54] <SpeedEvil> My expensive electronics is inside a CF egg, inside a flexy foam shell, covered in a skin of kevlar.
[02:54] <qbert55> we just use three 3 axis gyros and a pitot and three 3 axis Mags to do the job
[02:55] <SpeedEvil> yeah - for a glider, that works well
[02:55] <qbert55> our is incased in a buble wrap type of thing
[02:55] <qbert55> bubble
[02:55] <SpeedEvil> This thing has major gust issues at low level though
[02:55] <qbert55> not ours, we can fly if50knot winds
[02:56] <SpeedEvil> If it gets flipped over, bad things happen, as it's easy to get into an irrecoverable attitude.
[02:56] <qbert55> that happens when you got movable wings
[02:56] <qbert55> that why I went "glider"
[02:56] <SpeedEvil> No wings - just thrust vectoring :)
[02:57] <SpeedEvil> Aerosurfaces are for the weak!
[02:57] <qbert55> even worse
[02:57] <SpeedEvil> yes. Gliders are much easier that way.
[02:57] <qbert55> but it also G L I D E S
[02:57] <SpeedEvil> I went this way to keep the device physically small.
[02:58] <SpeedEvil> You're 'just' aiming at flyback to a 'home' point - with remote controlled landing then?
[02:58] <qbert55> Aw, now I get the picture of what your trying to do
[02:58] <qbert55> yup, on the cheap
[02:58] <SpeedEvil> laurenceb is aiming at basically something similar
[02:59] <SpeedEvil> he's gone with one gyro, and GPS, and kalman filters, and a rolaglo with one servo
[02:59] <qbert55> have a University very interesed in doing High altitude experiments if we can do it on a regular basis
[03:00] <qbert55> been there, done that, it works, to a point, but the high altitude winds will kill the rogallo
[03:00] <SpeedEvil> Which is why weather is important
[03:00] <SpeedEvil> so you can work out when you might get it back
[03:00] <SpeedEvil> If you've got a higher velocity, that's less of an issue
[03:01] <qbert55> we can watch the who thing on computer
[03:02] <SpeedEvil> that's nice.
[03:02] <qbert55> that's the problem with the rogallo, 50 60 not's max speed
[03:02] <qbert55> knot's
[03:02] <SpeedEvil> bidirectional comms makes lots of things much easier
[03:02] <SpeedEvil> laurencb is tying to do it completely autonomous.
[03:02] <qbert55> yes, it how we cut down
[03:03] <SpeedEvil> including logging windspeeds on ascent, and computing a trajectory back to base knowing those winds
[03:03] <SpeedEvil> And it's 3AM here - I woke up unable to sleep.
[03:03] <qbert55> we just use home and present locations to compute that
[03:04] <qbert55> GPS is great
[03:04] <qbert55> 3 AM I'd just be going to bed
[03:04] <SpeedEvil> assuming you can fly much faster than the wind
[03:05] <SpeedEvil> bearing to 'home' is easy - which way to fly isn't always quite so simple.
[03:05] <qbert55> that why we had to go with the IMU Auto Pilot, The IR version could not fly backwards
[03:06] <qbert55> IR version does not know which way it flying, it just know where home is
[03:07] <qbert55> if the winds a faster tan it's forward speed then it thinks I'm not going in the right direction because the distance is getting further away and starts to turn
[03:07] <qbert55> that's when things really go bonkers and we loose a bird
[03:08] <SpeedEvil> oops
[03:08] <qbert55> been there, done that, cost to much to do it again
[03:08] <qbert55> three time
[03:09] <qbert55> I remember wht I hate IIRC
[03:09] <SpeedEvil> In the UK, we have a well developed system of roads, and you can generally drive to within 100m without too many issues. I guess it's a bit more of a problem in canada?
[03:09] <qbert55> ya
[03:09] <SpeedEvil> All we need to worry about is it hitting the sea
[03:10] <SpeedEvil> otherwise, we can always recover it - pretty much.
[03:10] <qbert55> my nearest neighbour is 2km down the road
[03:10] <SpeedEvil> Though we do have one payload currently in a tree. :)
[03:10] <qbert55> chainsaw
[03:11] <qbert55> so you figure low pressure will not pose a problem
[03:11] <SpeedEvil> Interesting - managed to get a nice float from a latex balloon.
[03:11] <qbert55> ?
[03:12] <SpeedEvil> It seems if you inflate it just right, you can get to a point so when the pressure increases due to it being about to burst, it stops rising due to losing bouyancy
[03:13] <SpeedEvil> Further research with a actual differential pressure monitor on the balloon is probably happening soon
[03:13] <qbert55> cool, we thought of using bottled CO2 to float a larger version of out plane for the university
[03:13] <qbert55> our
[03:14] <SpeedEvil> CO2?
[03:14] <SpeedEvil> Umm - that's heavier than air
[03:15] <qbert55> ya and if you add some to the balloon ....
[03:15] <SpeedEvil> oh - right.
[03:15] <SpeedEvil> I've wondered about a Ch4/propane balloon
[03:15] <SpeedEvil> with the propane condensing at altitude
[03:16] <SpeedEvil> Or even H2/propane
[03:16] <qbert55> if I want to go up, let co2 out. if I want to go down let He out
[03:16] <qbert55> HE/propane
[03:16] <qbert55> CH4 only has 1/4 lift og He
[03:17] <qbert55> of
[03:17] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - I meant H2/propane
[03:17] <qbert55> BRB, Coffee break
[03:17] <SpeedEvil> Also - 1/2 - about.
[03:18] <qbert55> ya that has posabilities
[03:18] <SpeedEvil> Oxygen/nitrogen has an average mass of 32ish
[03:18] <SpeedEvil> CH4 is 16
[03:24] <qbert55> had a prof at UBC that did some Methane/propane balloon stuff
[03:24] <qbert55> never di hear results
[03:24] <qbert55> did
[03:25] <qbert55> So how do you know who is and who is not on this IIRC
[03:25] <qbert55> at the present time
[03:27] <SpeedEvil> ?
[03:27] <qbert55> I'm not an IIRC fan
[03:27] <SpeedEvil> your client should give you a list of people on the channe
[03:28] <SpeedEvil> at the moment - 23
[03:28] <qbert55> that's just who is registered
[03:28] <SpeedEvil> 2 of which are bots
[03:28] <SpeedEvil> ?
[03:28] <SpeedEvil> what do you mean 'on this' ?
[03:29] <qbert55> that's asking a question about your last statement
[03:29] <qbert55> so why are they also not chatting with us
[03:30] <qbert55> this is almost new to me
[03:30] <SpeedEvil> ah
[03:31] <SpeedEvil> most of these poeple are probably just asleep
[03:31] <qbert55> when I turn the program off on my computer does not my name disapeare from the list
[03:31] <SpeedEvil> yes
[03:31] <SpeedEvil> when they wake up, they may read back over what's happened while they've been asleep
[03:31] <qbert55> so why are 23 present and just two of us talking
[03:31] <SpeedEvil> They are probably asleep
[03:32] <qbert55> don't they turn there machines off
[03:32] <SpeedEvil> It tends to be quite active about 6-10 hours ago
[03:32] <SpeedEvil> nope.
[03:32] <qbert55> I'm on dial-up
[03:32] <qbert55> I do
[03:32] <SpeedEvil> :/
[03:32] <qbert55> that's where I got mixed up
[03:32] <SpeedEvil> Most in the UK are on DSL now.
[03:32] <SpeedEvil> So there is no cost in leaving the machine on
[03:33] <SpeedEvil> Anyway - I'd better get to sleep.
[03:33] <SpeedEvil> Good luck!
[03:33] <qbert55> If I were not 20 miles in the boonies I would be too
[03:33] <qbert55> Night
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[09:54] <RocketBoy> ]
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[11:35] <Laurenceb> hi
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[11:43] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: ping
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> ong
[11:56] <Laurenceb> hi, I was working on my n prize design :P
[11:56] <Laurenceb> seems to work quite well now
[11:57] <Laurenceb> 20 grams launched
[11:57] <Laurenceb> wondering where to launch it.... maybe merida
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> this the longburn solid?
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> where?
[11:57] <Laurenceb> well 14seconds
[11:57] <Laurenceb> mexico
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> ah
[11:58] <Laurenceb> my dad has a house in merida
[11:58] <Laurenceb> its 20 degrees north
[11:58] <SpeedEvil> on the coast?
[11:58] <Laurenceb> very close
[11:58] <Laurenceb> Yucatan
[11:59] <Laurenceb> launch the hab so its drifts out over the sea
[11:59] <Laurenceb> so first stage ignition isnt over land
[12:00] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universidad_Aut%C3%B3noma_de_Yucat%C3%A1n might be able to help
[12:08] <Laurenceb> anyway gtg, cya
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[13:13] <rjharrison> hi DanielRichman`
[13:13] <rjharrison> How is your project going?
[13:16] <rjharrison> bbl
[14:18] <DanielRichman> rjharrison, sbasuita and AlexBreton are both on holiday afaik (haven't seen them online). So I'm just sitting here toying with the SD Card; haven't got round to testing my code yet 'cause I don't have a deadline :)
[14:18] <DanielRichman> will do it soon though
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[14:34] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
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[18:27] <SpeedEvil> Random: Anyone happen to know of the behaviour of crop plants under reduced insolation?
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[23:08] <rjharrison> msg laurenceb I can't do tomorrw as wife is away. She hadn't tild me
[23:08] <rjharrison> Hey guys
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> hey
[23:09] <rjharrison> can yo tell laurenceb that message for me if you see him
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[23:09] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil is that OK
[23:10] <rjharrison> He said he'll be on here later
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> sure
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[23:10] <rjharrison> I'm off to bed shortly
[23:10] <rjharrison> Thanks SpeedEvil i owe you one]
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> night
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[23:55] <Laurenceb> hi
[23:56] <natrium42> yo laurence
[23:58] <natrium42> what's new?
[00:00] --- Sun Jul 26 2009