highaltitude.log.20090721

[00:01] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:01] <Laurenceb> I'd try to climb it and use telescopic hedge cutters
[00:01] <Laurenceb> but it overhangs the lane so its rather dangerous
[00:01] <Laurenceb> if theres more than one of you then its obviously a bit safer
[00:01] <Laurenceb> I've gtg sorry, bbl
[00:02] <jcoxon> no
[00:02] <jcoxon> np*
[00:02] <jcoxon> oops
[00:05] <jcoxon> night all
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[00:32] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orifice_plate
[00:32] <Laurenceb> looks like equation 6 is what we want
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[00:34] <Laurenceb> I still dont see how the bouyancy seems to suddenly drop off
[00:34] <Laurenceb> then it cruises... odd
[00:35] <Laurenceb> oh hang on, what time did it reach apogee?
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[00:36] <Laurenceb> aha its sunset
[00:36] <Laurenceb> - solar heating drops of causing it to cruise
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[00:45] <Laurenceb> is the tracker GMT?
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[09:31] <rjharrison> hey fergusnoble
[09:31] <rjharrison> You're up early
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[09:39] <rjharrison> Hey edmoore
[09:39] <rjharrison> I looke at your flikr this morning
[09:40] <rjharrison> very nice, saves hunting for the pics around the cusf pages
[09:42] <edmoore> rjharrison: yeah - that's just the initial pass of low hanging fruit on my hdd
[09:42] <edmoore> lots more still to go up
[09:42] <edmoore> the site is getting a redisign too
[09:42] <edmoore> and the wiki is fixed and about to get a lot more content
[09:42] <rjharrison> Great
[09:43] <rjharrison> The content you had on there for your out reach stuff was good
[09:43] <edmoore> if we've not been sharing that much this year I've realised it's more out of not having an easy way to do it. this new system should hopefully make it a lot easier
[09:44] <rjharrison> Looking forward to the new stuff
[09:44] <rjharrison> BTW I have payload ready for launch
[09:45] <edmoore> got a date in mind?
[09:45] <rjharrison> Just need a half sensible JS
[09:45] <rjharrison> Well as soon as the JS gets it's act together. I would quite like a jcoxon flight path ish
[09:46] <rjharrison> I have two working icarus II boards with int/ext temp sensors http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/3572102523/in/set-72157618814637849/
[09:47] <rjharrison> I'm going to put breakout pins on my next board to add stuff later that I didn't realise I need.
[09:48] Action: SpeedEvil wondered why rjharrison needed a half-sensible javascript.
[09:49] Action: SpeedEvil blames #firefox.
[09:49] <edmoore> :p
[09:49] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil tell me more
[09:50] Action: rjharrison thinks SpeedEvil is reading the logs
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison: Just need a half sensible JS
[09:50] <rjharrison> jet stream
[09:51] <rjharrison> :)
[09:51] <rjharrison> For a launch to test convection theory
[09:52] <SpeedEvil> yes, I know.
[09:52] <SpeedEvil> you mean to try what?
[09:53] <rjharrison> No vent to prove that you dont need it to float
[09:53] <rjharrison> But the vent is good
[09:53] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[09:54] <rjharrison> The vent is good though if you want to keep going after sunrize. The vent allows the envelope to reduce in size and then to not burst so soon after sun rize
[09:55] <rjharrison> There are lots of other factors that come in here too but I'm sure the vent would help increase duration in the morning (sunrize)
[09:55] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure that's true
[09:55] <SpeedEvil> at least for a latex
[09:56] <rjharrison> I think float is achived by convection currents causing a down force to match ascent force during the night
[09:56] <SpeedEvil> as the case of a latex and a ZP are vastly different as the vent differs by orders of magnitude
[09:56] <rjharrison> This is a guess and could be wrong
[09:56] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure.
[09:57] <SpeedEvil> If the balloon internal pressure is on the order of a quarter millibar (IIRC - I did the numbers last night) - you can get a mild superpressure effect
[09:57] <SpeedEvil> Err - a milibar I mean
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[09:58] <SpeedEvil> As you've got a quarter more density than the outside air
[10:01] <edmoore> rjharrison: any good js on the background?
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[10:08] <rjharrison> I'm unsure too but it's the best solution I can come up with to explain the abrupt change in ascent rate
[10:09] <rjharrison> edmoore: wundergound does not loo good at the moment
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> I think the superpressure effect works for that.
[10:09] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil: Cool
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> combined with lack of illumination causing the balloon to cool somewhat.
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[10:22] <edmoore> rjharrison: just put some phots of rocket mould and zp machine up
[10:22] <edmoore> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight
[10:24] <edmoore> rjharrison: you could deliberately try and send it to holland or norway?
[10:55] <rjharrison> edmoore cool pics I hae been waiting for those
[10:55] <rjharrison> Yep holland looks likely atm
[10:59] <edmoore> go onto #hamradio and ask if they'd pick it up
[11:00] <edmoore> although you're doing a sealed bottom so floating may not be likely
[11:00] <edmoore> but still actually 4 hours in those conditions should easily get you across
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[11:02] <edmoore> greetings chembrow
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[11:08] <chembrow> morning
[11:08] <chembrow> has the payload from the weekend been found yet?
[11:08] <edmoore> yes
[11:08] <edmoore> let me find you some links....
[11:08] <rjharrison> chembrow still in the tree at 15m
[11:08] <edmoore> it's not been retrieved, as it's up a tall tree
[11:08] <rjharrison> U up for the challenge
[11:09] <chembrow> that depends on the tree :)
[11:09] Action: SpeedEvil passes chembrow a link to argos trampolines.
[11:09] <rjharrison> lol
[11:09] <rjharrison> chembrow it over hangs the road up the kill
[11:09] <rjharrison> hill
[11:09] <chembrow> We just need a bigger balloon to send someone up with. Winnie the Pool style
[11:09] <chembrow> Winnie the Pooh
[11:09] <edmoore> http://imagebin.org/56439
[11:10] <edmoore> http://imagebin.org/56440
[11:10] <edmoore> rjharrison: you've still got nice to-the-west jetstream conditions if you fancied another floater
[11:11] <edmoore> sorry, the bit *above* the jetstream is still to-the-west
[11:11] <chembrow> If it's still there at the weekend I think I'll have a drive out. Not going to get chance in the week, due to work commitments
[11:12] <edmoore> rjharrison: oh god take a look at this
[11:12] <edmoore> hang on
[11:12] <edmoore> don't moe
[11:13] <rjharrison> BTW were is it in here http://imagebin.org/56440
[11:14] <rjharrison> edmoore: I'm very still :0
[11:14] <edmoore> rjharrison: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3742517122/
[11:15] <edmoore> same profile as james
[11:15] <edmoore> could tweak it to land on your house
[11:32] <rjharrison> edmoore: Ok we'll go for it
[11:32] <edmoore> haha
[11:32] <edmoore> ok
[11:32] <edmoore> it's obviously very high risk
[11:32] <edmoore> but that's using jame's flight profile which we at least have a datapoint on
[11:32] <rjharrison> It will be a miracle if it works
[11:33] <rjharrison> I like the hang in the sea
[11:33] <rjharrison> BTW is the balloon the burst point or the higest
[11:34] <edmoore> highest
[11:34] <edmoore> where float starts
[11:35] <rjharrison> Ok cool If it looks like this on thursday day time then we launch
[11:35] <rjharrison> and maybe launch any how by then
[11:35] <rjharrison> No vent
[11:35] <rjharrison> I'm quite sure it will work
[11:36] <rjharrison> Enought to gamble a balloon on
[11:36] <edmoore> oh you're launching without a vent?
[11:36] <rjharrison> Ho yep
[11:36] <rjharrison> It'll be fie
[11:36] <rjharrison> fine
[11:36] <edmoore> i bet you £10 it will completely not work
[11:36] <rjharrison> Cool
[11:37] <rjharrison> We need to know
[11:37] <rjharrison> Either one way or another
[11:37] <rjharrison> And this way is quite conclusive
[11:38] <edmoore> yep true :)
[11:38] <rjharrison> can you suplie the He
[11:39] <rjharrison> as that will reduce the cost alot as I wont bring the 4wd
[11:40] <rjharrison> 1.5 kg balloon on a 1-1.5m/s ascent rate
[11:43] <rjharrison> edmoore
[11:43] <edmoore> 2 mins
[11:43] <edmoore> yes
[11:44] <rjharrison> Great
[11:44] <rjharrison> It will be an interesting mission with 1/4 wave GP no cutdown
[11:44] <rjharrison> Using my theory of thirds
[11:45] <rjharrison> Will add a heater to payload any thoughts on constuction
[11:45] <rjharrison> Thinking 4xaa and an R its just the value that I need to calc
[11:45] <rjharrison> V=IR I guess
[11:45] <edmoore> good idea
[11:46] <edmoore> i would keep it very gentle
[11:47] <edmoore> so perhaps limit the current to 10-20ma
[11:48] <edmoore> you could also throw in a hand warmer thing
[11:48] <edmoore> and just keep the box well insulated
[11:48] <rjharrison> I have one of those but it will freeze later + adds weight
[11:48] <rjharrison> Yep I'll see if I can pad it a little
[11:49] <edmoore> some space balnket would help a lot
[11:49] <rjharrison> Id that conductive
[11:49] <rjharrison> is
[11:49] <edmoore> yes
[11:49] <rjharrison> I could line the payload with it
[11:49] <edmoore> maybe insulate the tronics with some thin foam, then blanket, then foam, then blanket, then foam
[11:49] <edmoore> then all in your box
[11:50] <rjharrison> Lassen this time
[11:51] <edmoore> yup
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[11:53] <rjharrison> Ok so deal is provided the profile stays roughly like this on Thrusday AM I'll come down to Camb. Launch and then drive home after food go to bed for a bit and pick up balloon in the morning from Leeds Bradford runway
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[11:54] <edmoore> rjharrison: you really need to be careful if you're aiming for this float
[11:54] <edmoore> the winds don't change direction till about 25km
[11:54] <edmoore> you really need it to be up above that height by sunset
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[11:58] <rjharrison> So launch at 17:00 then
[11:59] <rjharrison> I'm just going to have a play on the pred
[12:00] <edmoore> with a 1.5-2m/s ascent rate, you might be alright with that. Just on phone for a bit
[12:02] <rjharrison> sure np
[12:06] <rjharrison> An International Space Station school contact has been planned with participants at Ugo Guidi school, Forte dei Marmi, Lucca, Italy on 23 July. The event is scheduled to begin at approximately 19:35 UTC, i.e. 21:35 CEST
[12:06] <rjharrison> IT's in english
[12:06] <rjharrison> might be fun to listen to this over dinner after launch
[12:07] <rjharrison> Interested parties are invited to listen in on the 145.800 MHz FM downlink. The contact is expected to be conducted in English.
[12:14] <edmoore> rjharrison: that's the thing I did at Parkside
[12:15] <edmoore> with Charles Simonyi
[12:15] <rjharrison> Cool
[12:15] <edmoore> they ARISS crowd will be at the amsat conference this weekend
[12:15] <rjharrison> Did you get to uplink?
[12:16] <edmoore> the kids did
[12:16] <edmoore> i just helped set up the rig and gave a quick talk on teddies to the assembly before the overpass started
[12:17] <rjharrison> Cool
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[13:16] <jcoxon> damn just missed fergus
[13:19] <edmoore> jcoxon: he's not really around atm as far as I can tell
[13:19] <edmoore> he's coming to churchill thoiugh
[13:19] <edmoore> can i take a message?
[13:20] <jcoxon> ummm just had an idea for something we discussed over the weekend
[13:20] <jcoxon> in regards to automated radio stations
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[13:21] <edmoore> cool, well he'll be here soon
[13:21] <jcoxon> as i'm off on thurs morning so will miss the launch
[13:21] <edmoore> jcoxon: been steadily adding photos
[13:21] <edmoore> this is to glascow?
[13:21] <jcoxon> however i could imagine an extra station would be tres helpful
[13:21] <jcoxon> helen and i are of to Skye for a few days
[13:22] <jcoxon> then i'm starting work in glasgow
[13:22] <edmoore> oh cool
[13:22] <edmoore> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight
[13:22] <edmoore> yes another station would be cool
[13:22] <edmoore> it's heading right out to the north sea
[13:22] <edmoore> then supposedly swinging round west
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[13:22] <jcoxon> wow ed you've gone flickr crazy
[13:23] <jcoxon> brilliant
[13:23] <edmoore> flickr is cool
[13:23] <edmoore> we've collected so much stuff that we're basically just going to get it all on flickr/wiki etc
[13:23] <jcoxon> great
[13:24] <edmoore> rather than having it just over random hard drives
[13:24] <edmoore> on peoples laptops
[13:24] <jcoxon> the nice thing about flickr is that it can cope with high load
[13:24] <edmoore> yeah
[13:24] <edmoore> the nice thing about CUDN is that it doesn't take too long to shove stuff up!
[13:24] <jcoxon> indeed
[13:25] <jcoxon> okay suggestions for fldigi
[13:25] <jcoxon> am having a play right now
[13:25] <edmoore> steve's bug
[13:25] <jcoxon> whats that?
[13:26] <edmoore> i think the main suggestions would actually be more than could be done right now - like auto-tracking by tuning over hamlib etc
[13:26] <edmoore> ask RocketBoy
[13:26] <jcoxon> oh is it a vista problem
[13:26] <edmoore> also a guide on the wiki with super easy steps + screenshots of how to configure it for noobs would be great
[13:26] <jcoxon> yes good point
[13:26] <edmoore> I had an old boy phone churchill last night
[13:26] <edmoore> got passed onto me
[13:27] <edmoore> heard the morse beacon
[13:27] <edmoore> 86 years old, worked with Martin Ryle on his nobel research in 1946 with radio astronomy
[13:27] <edmoore> wondering about the balloon thing and how to decode the rtty
[13:27] <jcoxon> amazing
[13:27] <jcoxon> hope we didn't upset anyone
[13:28] <edmoore> oh no he was fascinated
[13:28] <jcoxon> great
[13:29] <edmoore> do you want to update the tracker twitter with rob's launch?
[13:30] <jcoxon> yes
[13:30] <jcoxon> is it worth just leaving it with my twitter account
[13:30] <jcoxon> i can give you guys the password
[13:32] <edmoore> ok
[13:33] <jcoxon> or should we start a generalised twitter account
[13:33] <edmoore> a general one might be a good idea. just for ukhas announcements
[13:34] <sbasuita> you could use a hashtag
[13:34] <sbasuita> #ukhas
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[13:37] <rjharrison> hey jcoxon
[13:47] <jcoxon> edmoore, okay done
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[15:52] <SpeedEvil> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=rcG&q=1000W%2F%280.6+US+gallons+%2F3.8hours+*+600Kg%2Fm^3++*44100J%2Fg%29+in+percent&btnG=Search&meta= - an example of what WA finds difficult. (efficiency of a generator)
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[16:08] <natrium42_> is ballasthalo 2 still awol?
[16:08] <jcoxon> natrium42_, is been found
[16:08] <jcoxon> just stuck up a tree
[16:08] <natrium42_> :S
[16:08] <jcoxon> rescue mission is being planned
[16:09] <natrium42_> use a fishing rod!
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[16:30] <rjharrison> edmoore jcoxon fergusnoble RocketBoy chaeck email
[16:30] <rjharrison> check eve
[16:30] <rjharrison> n
[16:34] <rjharrison> Hey guys the data is not what I expected it gives more weight to balloon physics than atmos physics
[16:34] <natrium42_> rjharrison: yo
[16:34] <natrium42_> what are you planning for the launch?
[16:34] <rjharrison> Hey natrium42_ Non vented slow riser
[16:34] <rjharrison> to see if vent is necessary for float
[16:35] <natrium42_> ah, interesting
[16:38] <rjharrison> natrium42_ see email
[16:39] <natrium42_> kk
[16:39] Action: natrium42_ is on train atm
[16:39] <fergusnoble> natrium42_: are you still in italy?
[16:39] <natrium42_> yep
[16:40] <natrium42_> going minan to venice
[16:40] <natrium42_> *milan
[16:40] <natrium42_> back in canada on the 24th
[16:40] <fergusnoble> ok awesome
[16:40] <fergusnoble> having fun?
[16:40] <fergusnoble> recommend booking early if you want to get a youth hostel in venice
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[16:42] <natrium42> 3G is a bit dodgy on the move
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[17:09] <edmoore> rjharrison: just got back
[17:09] <edmoore> interesting info, thank you
[17:10] <rjharrison> so back to the balloon modeling
[17:10] <rjharrison> something very quickly is taking effect there
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[17:34] <natrium42_> ok, almost in venice
[17:34] <natrium42_> later all
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[17:36] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison: is it superpressure - or something temperature related?
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[20:55] Action: SpeedEvil observes a flash and counts to 10.
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> Thought it was a bit dark
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[22:49] <Laurenceb> hi
[22:49] <SpeedEvil> hi
[22:51] <Laurenceb> oh.... hes there atm?
[22:51] <Laurenceb> I tried to talk on the phone but the reception was terrible
[22:52] Action: Laurenceb reads the logs
[22:56] <Laurenceb> RocketBoy: can you tell me anything about these? http://pro38.com/products/pro98/motor/MotorData.php?prodid=7400M520-P
[22:56] <Laurenceb> they seem to be a long burning version of a similar reload
[22:56] <Laurenceb> wondered what they change
[22:56] <Laurenceb> also any idea how much they might cost?
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[23:03] <Laurenceb> ah http://www.rocketstore.co.uk/shop/prodtype.asp?PT_ID=189&strPageHistory=cat
[23:03] <Laurenceb> hmm expensive
[23:05] <Laurenceb> maybe possible for £900 per launch with first stage recovery - just meets the n prize :P
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if it's legal to convince vendors to offer special prices for n-prize
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> for all competitors
[23:10] <Laurenceb> I got the sim code working with one of those motors as the first stage
[23:10] <Laurenceb> 200 x 1200km orbit with 10gram payload
[23:10] <Laurenceb> if the first stage can be made with a 500gram dry weight
[23:11] <Laurenceb> may be possible to stretch it to 20 gram to orbit with a bit of optimising with the mass distribution
[23:11] <Laurenceb> brb
[23:24] <RocketBoy> Laurenceb: yeah the M520 is just a long burn M - the chemical composition and or grain geometry will be different to acheive a long burn.
[23:30] <Laurenceb> I see
[23:30] <Laurenceb> hmm itd work... but its very expensive
[23:30] <Laurenceb> for that much you could have some precision machined H2O2 pump made up
[23:32] <RocketBoy> i think you are being very optimistic about that
[23:32] <Laurenceb> probably
[23:32] <Laurenceb> yeah the entire development would cost a lot more than that
[23:33] <RocketBoy> a few hundred £ for a solid M motor is pretty standard over here - perhaps about 1/2 that in the US
[23:33] <Laurenceb> hmm
[23:33] <Laurenceb> its pretty decent really I guess
[23:33] <Laurenceb> but everyone at EARS is litterally burning money :P
[23:33] <RocketBoy> or in some US states you could manufacture it yourself
[23:34] <RocketBoy> and your point is?
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[23:34] <Laurenceb> heh guess thats the idea
[23:35] <RocketBoy> in the UK the explosive licencing laws are susch that you cannot manufacture solid propellants (not without a huge outlay)
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> Anyone up for a share in a UKHAS fireworks factory? :)
[23:36] <RocketBoy> and the legislation is also such that the motors need testing, CE marking .... which adds to the cost of selling them in the UK
[23:38] <RocketBoy> unsurprisingly if it were at all possible to find a way to get cheap propellant in the UK I suspect it would have been found by the guys that have been doing rocketry in the UK for years.
[23:38] <Laurenceb> bbl
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[00:00] --- Wed Jul 22 2009