highaltitude.log.20090720

[00:16] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: I was thinking about an all solid n prize vehicle
[00:17] <Laurenceb> using just high power rocketry motors
[00:17] <Laurenceb> its seems to be possible with three stages
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> Sugar +KNO3 - you know you want to!
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> N-prize, and world record number of stages
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> Get tate and lyle to cover you.
[00:19] <Laurenceb> lool
[00:19] <Laurenceb> the tricky bit is getting a long enough burn time
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[00:20] <Laurenceb> the high power rocketry motors have pretty high isp
[00:20] <Laurenceb> 230 with a decent nozzle
[00:20] <Laurenceb> I was thinking a 5kg glow from 32km
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> How big a issue is drag - forex if you go to 40Km - which is extreme of course
[00:21] <Laurenceb> the first stage gets to 200km in a parabolic arc, launching the spin second and third stages at apogee
[00:21] <Laurenceb> its painful if the burntime is short
[00:22] <Laurenceb> I was thinking you could keep the tronics and thrust vectoring nozzle on the first stage and recover it
[00:22] <SpeedEvil> interesting idea
[00:22] <Laurenceb> http://pro38.com/products/pro98/motor/MotorData.php?prodid=7400M520-P
[00:22] <SpeedEvil> what's the impact speed?
[00:22] <Laurenceb> might just be suitable for the first stage
[00:22] <Laurenceb> delta v fir stage 1 is ~2.2Km/s
[00:23] <Laurenceb> it would re enter engine first
[00:23] <Laurenceb> but the spin setup by staging will tend to stabilise it
[00:23] <Laurenceb> not sure what would happen
[00:24] <Laurenceb> if it flipped around the engine would protect it
[00:29] <SpeedEvil> What's the approximate sectional density of the first empty?
[00:31] <Laurenceb> 10kg/m^2
[00:31] <Laurenceb> going sideways
[00:32] <SpeedEvil> That's not that heavy
[00:32] <SpeedEvil> I suppose that means the peak heating is quite high
[00:32] <SpeedEvil> as it will decellrate fast
[00:36] <Laurenceb> it needs a small slow burning charge to get the correct attitidue at apogee
[00:39] <SpeedEvil> You mean the first stage to get into the right reentry attitude, or or second stage?
[00:40] <Laurenceb> to launch the seconds stage
[00:40] <Laurenceb> through the launch tube
[00:40] <SpeedEvil> ah
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[00:45] <Laurenceb> the drag kills it unfortunately :-/
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[00:50] <Laurenceb> no... I screwed up the sim code
[00:51] <SpeedEvil> :/
[00:55] <Laurenceb> oh typo
[00:57] <Laurenceb> with 5kg glow you could easily do 30km balloon launch with 3 latex balloons
[00:57] <SpeedEvil> I wonder how rubbing would affect it
[00:58] <Laurenceb> cu spaceflight launched one with two balloons
[01:02] <Laurenceb> yeah it work
[01:02] <Laurenceb> oh well gtg
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[09:32] <rjharrison> Hi edmoore
[09:32] <rjharrison> That article was a bit dated
[09:32] <rjharrison> But it was interesting non the less
[09:33] <edmoore> hi rob
[09:33] <rjharrison> I'm going to nip up to the leeds uni at lunch time and have a chat at the met dept
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[09:57] Topic changed on #highaltitude by !irc.freenode.net: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk, wiki.ukhas.org.uk - Launch: BallestHalo 1, 17/07/09 18:00 BST
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[12:12] <rjharrison> Hey jcoxon
[12:12] <rjharrison> Did you have a nice sleep?
[12:14] <jcoxon> yes, very nice
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[13:33] <jcoxon> morning RocketBoy edmoore fergusnoble
[13:33] <fergusnoble> morning
[13:33] <edmoore> it be afternoon!
[13:33] <jcoxon> oops
[13:33] <rjharrison> hehe
[13:33] <jcoxon> hehe
[13:34] <rjharrison> Humm this is intersting looking at the temperature
[13:34] <rjharrison> http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/time.png
[13:34] <fergusnoble> rjharrison: good price on the tents, shall we get two?
[13:34] <rjharrison> lol
[13:34] <jcoxon> which flight?
[13:34] <ms7821> weird
[13:35] <rjharrison> 3kg
[13:35] <jcoxon> rjharrison, oooo this sort of makes some sense
[13:35] <jcoxon> at sunrise
[13:35] <jcoxon> we had a large increase in temp
[13:35] <jcoxon> (by watching the radio freq)
[13:36] <jcoxon> when was this flight?
[13:36] <jcoxon> as in what time was sun rise
[13:37] <rjharrison> 2009-06-04 09:56:16
[13:37] <rjharrison> This data is a bit crap as float was only achived at the end of the night
[13:37] <jcoxon> 4.46am
[13:38] <rjharrison> I'll try to get it up again this week and we can see what's going on
[13:38] <rjharrison> Thinking launch at 7
[13:38] <jcoxon> 7pm?
[13:38] <rjharrison> yep
[13:38] <jcoxon> yes 2-3m/s
[13:38] <rjharrison> 2
[13:38] <jcoxon> get what you get hehe
[13:38] <rjharrison> true
[13:39] <rjharrison> The temp sensors will be useful if there is conv going on
[13:40] <jcoxon> not to sure about the middle section of the temp sensors
[13:41] <rjharrison> Humm two idenitcal systems with 2 balloon sizes will be a pain to build
[13:41] <rjharrison> me neither, ignore the blue
[13:42] <jcoxon> could there be some data inversion
[13:42] <rjharrison> Yep
[13:42] <rjharrison> Quite possibly
[13:42] <jcoxon> so that the orignal descent jsut continues down to the lowest point before rising
[13:43] <rjharrison> no
[13:43] <rjharrison> The sets of data are correct
[13:43] <rjharrison> The external sensor was a bit internal that's all
[13:43] <jcoxon> off to reach so warm inside
[13:43] <rjharrison> It wasn't poking out as much as I wanted
[13:44] <rjharrison> Yep
[13:44] <jcoxon> oh well
[13:44] <rjharrison> Camera in there too keeping it warm
[13:44] <jcoxon> bring on another flight
[13:45] <rjharrison> Yep, edmoore, fergusnoble how is camb for a launch on Thursday evening
[13:46] <rjharrison> unless rocketboy has ears sorted
[13:46] <fergusnoble> yup
[13:46] <fergusnoble> that should be fine
[13:46] <fergusnoble> we have to go down to sussex on firday
[13:47] <fergusnoble> but not till the afternoon
[13:47] <fergusnoble> just ordering another bottle of He
[13:47] <rjharrison> I'll try to get a plan together tonight
[13:47] <rjharrison> Cool on account
[13:47] <fergusnoble> yup
[13:47] <fergusnoble> :)
[13:47] <edmoore> :)
[13:47] <rjharrison> I'll check out the JS
[13:48] <fergusnoble> do you want to get it back?
[13:48] <fergusnoble> should come up with a scheme to heat your gps too, me an james were thinking maybe a little aluminium plate linking the regulator to the gps
[13:49] <fergusnoble> with some thermal paste
[13:49] <rjharrison> Cool
[13:49] <rjharrison> That's possible
[13:49] <edmoore> rjharrison: what are you flying on thursday?
[13:49] <rjharrison> 1.5
[13:50] <edmoore> vented? (go on...)
[13:50] <rjharrison> Icarus II
[13:50] <rjharrison> no
[13:50] <rjharrison> It'll float
[13:50] <rjharrison> Just your pred pops it in the sea
[13:51] <edmoore> rjharrison: what instrumentation?
[13:51] <rjharrison> temp int ext and gps
[13:52] <fergusnoble> rjharrison: we have some scp1000s if you want
[13:52] <fergusnoble> on breakout boards
[13:52] <fergusnoble> could put one in the balloon and one outside
[13:52] <rjharrison> It's the interfacing that might be tricky
[13:52] <fergusnoble> its just spi
[13:52] <rjharrison> I didn't put any option on the board
[13:52] <fergusnoble> ah ok
[13:52] <rjharrison> for connecting
[13:52] <rjharrison> I could solder direct to pins
[13:53] <rjharrison> May have to postpone launch though
[13:53] <rjharrison> Which may be good given the predictions from CUSF
[13:54] <jcoxon> bbl
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[13:55] <rjharrison> Right on with the day job
[13:55] <rjharrison> Chat later tonight
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[14:48] <RocketBoy> Anyone want an Ericsson GM12 GSM module - free - otherwise it goes in the bin
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[14:55] <edmoore> RocketBoy: sorry, you're quite right - I'll see to it. In theory I should be a signatory on the chequebook any day now, so that can hopefully speed things up
[14:56] <RocketBoy> np
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[15:21] <natrium42> o/
[15:28] <edmoore> hi natrium42
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[15:40] <natrium42> yo edmoore
[15:40] <natrium42> do you know if there has been any success retrieving the payload?
[15:41] <edmoore> no, but it's been spotted
[15:43] <natrium42> so use a r/c heli to retrieve it :P
[15:44] <edmoore> I think laurence might fly his glider into it to join it
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> I've got an axe that could be borrowed.
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[15:48] <rjharrison> sbasuita have you interfaced the temp sensors yet?
[15:49] Nick change: G8KHW-2 -> RocketBoy
[15:52] <RocketBoy> rjharrison - I had problems using the visa dlfldigi on the ballasthalo2 flight - the client strtup was logged - but not the data
[15:52] <RocketBoy> I had downloaded the latest dlclient
[15:52] <RocketBoy> any clues?
[16:05] <rjharrison> Weird
[16:05] <rjharrison> I'll have a play at homr
[16:05] <rjharrison> home RocketBoy
[16:07] <RocketBoy> ta
[16:08] <rjharrison> RocketBoy is there a balloon order coming in?
[16:15] <RocketBoy> yep - due tomorrow/wednesday so kaymont say
[16:15] <RocketBoy> I rang up today - but its not in customs yet
[16:29] <edmoore> natrium42: ping
[16:29] <natrium42> like hi
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[17:03] <Professor> any updates?
[17:04] <jcoxon> hey Professor
[17:04] <jcoxon> its still up the tree
[17:10] <Professor> oh, so you found it?
[17:12] <SpeedEvil> yep.
[17:12] <SpeedEvil> Actual pics and everything
[17:12] <SpeedEvil> just no long stick.
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[17:15] <rjharrison_> Hey guys the jets don't look that good for this week
[17:16] <rjharrison_> fergusnoble_, Are you interested in baro pressure
[17:16] <fergusnoble_> not so much just external
[17:16] <fergusnoble_> but inside the balloon would be awesome
[17:17] <fergusnoble_> we could send you 2x scp1000 iuw
[17:17] <jcoxon> fergusnoble_, perhaps it might be worth whipping together a pressure sensor in a pipe
[17:17] <jcoxon> with its own radio module
[17:18] <rjharrison_> Humm not very eficient use of the bandwidth
[17:18] <rjharrison_> Unless you have other plans for it JC
[17:18] <jcoxon> it was more about having to run lines up and down the flight train
[17:19] <jcoxon> if it went on another freq say .650 it would also act as the back up beacon if it didn't cut or if it did cut tell us what happens then
[17:19] <rjharrison_> That is a good point
[17:20] <rjharrison_> Why not put 2 in the pipe one int and one ext
[17:20] <rjharrison_> on 650
[17:20] <rjharrison_> I have a space 650 @ home
[17:20] <rjharrison_> spare
[17:20] <SpeedEvil> havfe you really got pressure sensors that sensitive at low pressures - to other than differential pressureS?
[17:20] <jcoxon> rjharrisont thats what i meant
[17:20] <jcoxon> 2, one inside, one outside, a small micro and a radio
[17:20] <rjharrison_> SpeedEvil, also a good point
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> The pressure difference is going to be what - a millibar?
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> I suppose actually it's trivial to plot on the ground in a room - up to a few meters anyway.
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> with a little water level
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> Give some idea
[17:23] <fergusnoble_> the scp1000 can measure an 8cm column of air
[17:23] <fergusnoble_> so its quite sensitive
[17:23] <SpeedEvil> Oh - I remember now
[17:23] <fergusnoble_> but yes, a differential sensor would be good
[17:23] <SpeedEvil> You tested one and it went way lower than spec as minimum pressure IIRC
[17:24] Action: SpeedEvil realises he has no rubber balloons.
[17:26] <fergusnoble_> erm, one of here will try and do a rom calculation in a bit
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[17:39] <jcoxon> rjharrison did you get that email i forwarded?
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[17:48] Action: Professor needs to read up on these pressure sensors
[17:48] <Professor> any idea what they cost, qty 1?
[17:49] <Professor> ouch, 30-60 bucks
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> IIRC sparkfun had them for $24
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> I dunno if still
[17:53] <Professor> wait a minute
[17:53] <Professor> these things are 6mm across?
[17:54] Action: Professor looks at sfe
[17:54] <Professor> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8128
[17:54] <Professor> holy jesus, that's small
[17:54] <Professor> and 25 bucks puts them in line with the mpx4115a that I'm used to
[17:55] <Professor> actually, this is so small that I think I would have extreme difficulty soldering it
[17:56] <Professor> oh, they have a breakout board for 2x the cost. joy
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[18:05] <edmoore> rjharrison: so RoM differential pressure is probably somewhere between 0-3KPa
[18:05] <edmoore> = 30 millibars
[18:05] <edmoore> http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/950807-sensor-pressure-1-45psi-max-mpx2010dp.html
[18:05] <edmoore> 14.5 psi = 1 bar
[18:05] <edmoore> so 1.45 psi = 100millibars
[18:06] <edmoore> so that will happily do the job
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> At 35Km - atmos is 5mB ish - and there isn't usually a slowdown before burst is there?
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> Which would put a moderately solid upper floor on pressure then at 2mB or so
[18:09] <SpeedEvil> I make that .25mV/mB sensitivity
[18:10] <sbasuita> rjharrison_, yez
[18:13] <edmoore> my sums were max on the ground - it should certainly be less up top, yes
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> Tempco is quoted as +-4mB - but it doesn't say if that's over the whole temperature range - which isn't hideous - or if it's over 1C - which is
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> (the offset voltage)
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[18:18] <SpeedEvil> At least if you've got a good ADC/amp - the burst signal will be unambiguous - and give a good calibration
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[18:39] <rjharrison_> jcoxon, boo
[18:39] <rjharrison_> Sorry fell asleep only had a few hours in the last three days
[18:39] <rjharrison_> Was up till 3am last night
[18:39] <rjharrison_> Yep great email
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[18:57] <jcoxon> ukhas have now done 37 flights
[19:00] <RocketBoy> :-)
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[19:32] <rjharrison_> .
[19:33] <rjharrison_> hey natrium42_ hows it going
[19:33] <rjharrison_> You have a little bugger in the track.php script
[19:33] <rjharrison_> the old HTTP_VARS thing
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[20:36] <gordonjcp> ugh, php
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[21:12] Action: jcoxon is fighting kml
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[21:28] <rjharrison_> hey jcoxon what U doing with kml
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[21:34] <jcoxon> oh i've put together kmls from the last 2 flights
[21:35] <jcoxon> just need some manual search of dirty data
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[22:24] <edmoore_> jcoxon: mega turnout this evening
[22:24] <edmoore_> rjharrison: did you see the pressure sensor I linked to?
[22:24] <edmoore_> we were going to maybe buy a handfull to get with badgercub parts
[22:29] <edmoore_> CUSF (well, my debit card) have just bought a flickr pro account. expect lots more photos a lot more often
[22:29] <edmoore_> plus the wiki is now not broken
[22:29] <rharrison_eee> oh no i missed it just chatting with fergusnoble
[22:29] <edmoore_> plus the entire site is being rationalised
[22:29] <rharrison_eee> flickr pro is cool
[22:30] <edmoore_> need to make it easier to share all the stuff that might normally appear to be behind close doors, instead just behind messy overgrown unergrowth
[22:31] <rharrison_eee> reading the gauge is going to be interesting. Photo
[22:31] <rharrison_eee> This atmos. physics is interesting
[22:33] <rharrison_eee> That reminds me I need to upload the videos from icarus II launch3
[22:34] <rharrison_eee> edmoore_: I'm working on auto graphs at the moment from the tracker
[22:35] <rharrison_eee> Soon all previous launches data, graphs, tracks and stats will be available
[22:36] <edmoore_> cool
[22:36] <edmoore_> raw data would be grand too
[22:37] <rharrison_eee> I could do with some input on the graphs front when I have automated the process
[22:37] <rharrison_eee> Alt/time is obv
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[22:37] <rharrison_eee> rate of asc/time would be good too I gues
[22:38] <rharrison_eee> alt/temp
[22:38] <rharrison_eee> any others
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[22:39] Nick change: edmoore_ -> edm
[22:39] <rharrison_eee> The raw data is the only way to present the custom data back to the users for further processing
[22:39] <edm> that sounds liek a good mix
[22:40] <rharrison_eee> Hopefully it will all be automated for the next launch
[22:41] <rharrison_eee> I may even make it look pretty if I have time#
[22:41] <rharrison_eee> right off too sleep
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[23:05] <edm> jcoxon: just giving the site an overhaul and clear out (it's in an unbeleiveable state of disrepair) and found this - http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/PegasusMiHAB.jpg
[23:05] <edm> any ideas?
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[23:34] <Laurenceb> hello
[23:36] <Laurenceb> hi jcoxon
[23:38] <Laurenceb> what gps was used on the floater?
[23:38] <jcoxon> hey
[23:38] <jcoxon> edm, yeah thats from the original nova page with sketchup and such
[23:38] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, a ublox
[23:39] <Laurenceb> oh interesting that it broke
[23:39] <Laurenceb> did you find the photos?
[23:39] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, yes i saw the photos
[23:39] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, it didn't break - just got sooo cold
[23:40] <jcoxon> that we reckon it lost sats
[23:40] <Laurenceb> sure
[23:40] <Laurenceb> thats what I meant
[23:40] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, what do you reckon is required to get the payload down?
[23:40] <Laurenceb> what was the cruise altitude?
[23:40] <Laurenceb> I'd guess bow and arrow
[23:41] <Laurenceb> or climb and telescopic hedge cutters
[23:41] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, 27km
[23:41] <Laurenceb> oh wow ok
[23:41] <Laurenceb> its going to get pretty cold
[23:41] <jcoxon> yeah
[23:41] <jcoxon> then as soon as the sun came up it warmed up and started working again
[23:43] <Laurenceb> ah
[23:43] <Laurenceb> how thick was the polystyrene, and how much power did the payload use?
[23:43] <Laurenceb> brb
[23:43] <jcoxon> there are picks on flickr and about 120mA
[23:50] <Laurenceb> ah so not much power
[23:50] <Laurenceb> and the case is quite large surface area wise
[23:50] <Laurenceb> so its not going to be warmed well be the tronics
[23:51] <edm> jcoxon / Laurenceb : we're slowly adding content http://www.flickr.com/photos/40636913@N04/
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[23:57] <Laurenceb> cool stuff ed
[23:58] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, will a long pole do the job?
[23:58] <Laurenceb> I need to create a mathematical model of what went on with that floater :P
[23:58] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: maybe
[23:58] <jcoxon> hmmmm
[23:58] <Laurenceb> but its very high up
[23:58] <Laurenceb> you'll need to hook the payload itself
[23:58] <jcoxon> basically on thurs i'm on my way up to scotland
[23:58] <Laurenceb> ~20m
[23:58] <Laurenceb> right
[23:58] <jcoxon> along the m6
[23:58] <jcoxon> so am passing by
[23:58] <Laurenceb> I see
[23:58] <jcoxon> but can't spend too much time
[23:58] <Laurenceb> I'm in ashbourne so its a way from the M6
[23:58] <Laurenceb> ~30 miles
[23:59] <jcoxon> so my thinking is that i'll have ago if i've really got a chance to get it down
[00:00] --- Tue Jul 21 2009