highaltitude.log.20090716

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[10:19] <jcoxon> morning all
[10:23] <edmoore> morning jcoxon
[10:24] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[10:26] Action: jcoxon is working out his jobs for the day
[10:27] <jcoxon> ping rjharrison
[10:27] <jcoxon> edmoore, did you see the email from wb8elk?
[10:27] <edmoore> nope
[10:27] <edmoore> send it me
[10:28] <jcoxon> its only short as a reply to the lists - will do in one sec
[10:30] <edmoore> not a list i'm on - last thing i got from him was about garmin tours yesterday
[10:30] <jcoxon> ukhas list?
[10:31] <edmoore> don't seem to have it
[10:34] <edmoore> cool
[10:37] <edmoore> nothing we don't already know, i don't think. (although we know it because we've seen his presenttion on it :) )
[10:38] <jcoxon> yeah
[10:38] <jcoxon> rjharrison, is suggesting using a smaller hole
[10:44] <jcoxon> shall i turn on irc on spacenear.us?
[10:44] <edmoore> ok do
[10:44] <edmoore> so the 1.5kg balloon has a volume that is 1.3 times the volume of a 1.2
[10:45] <edmoore> according to kaymont data, at least
[10:46] <edmoore> assuming similar differential pressures...
[10:47] <jcoxon> okay
[10:48] <edmoore> then you want a scale hole of 1.3mm
[10:50] <jcoxon> scale?
[10:50] <edmoore> I am not sure that the differential pressures are the same though
[10:50] <edmoore> the 1.2kg balloon needs to have a 1.2mm hole, assuming the same pressure inside the balloon
[10:50] <edmoore> 1.3mm*
[10:50] <edmoore> I'm not sure that there's the same pressures though
[10:50] <jcoxon> okay
[10:50] <edmoore> this is a tough model
[10:51] <jcoxon> okay looking at teh forecasts we just need to float above 19km to be safe
[10:51] <edmoore> bill brown's flight profile seems to work
[10:52] <jcoxon> if we put in too much of a small hole though we'll risk reaching bust alt
[10:58] <jcoxon> that said we are also limited by what drill bit i can find
[11:05] <jcoxon> okay b and q have either 1mm or 1.5mm
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[11:34] <edmoore> go for 1.5 jcoxon i reckon
[11:34] <jcoxon> yeah i agree
[11:53] <jcoxon> bbl
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[12:30] <jcoxon> hehe we are clashing with GPSL2009
[12:36] <jcoxon> ping rjharrison
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[15:34] <grummund> /delurk
[15:35] <grummund> hey guys, just thinking out loud.... i'm wondering if you could run a tube from the balloon to the payload and control the pressure with valve under control from gps height measurement?
[15:38] <edmoore> it's certinaly possible and jcoxon is planning it
[15:39] <grummund> ah ok... good minds think alike then ;)
[15:41] <grummund> what's the criteria for a burst? is it pressure difference between internal/external, in which case the two pressures could be sensed and control a valve that way?
[15:42] <grummund> then presumably you get maximum attainable height?
[15:42] <edmoore> i think the idea of the valve is to avoid burst
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> grummund: it bursts at a given differental pressure - yes
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> (though temperature,sun,rate,uv prolly matter too)
[15:46] <grummund> ok, so is ambient pressure consistent with altitude at that height?
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> ?
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> oh
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> somewhat
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> it varies a bit
[15:47] <grummund> ok
[15:48] <grummund> probably the gps height measurement is not best to control a valve then
[15:49] <grummund> basically it's just a release valve controlled by differrential pressure, regardless of height
[15:49] <grummund> i have one of those on my domestic hot water tank ;-p
[15:51] <russss> heh
[15:53] <grummund> it's just a valve with a spring in it. the spring tension sets the pressure differential
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> it's 'simple'
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> But.
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> At 30km, and a couple of millibars differential pressure, and -50C ambient
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> It's not really very easy to replicate test condition
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> Plus - the pressure in the balloon goes down, not up as it's inflated.
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> As I unrestand it anyway
[15:58] <grummund> ah yes well
[15:58] <grummund> nothing... *Nothing*, is ever simple. ;)
[16:00] <grummund> but the pressure differential should be the same at ground level, no?
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> The balloon inflates a _lot_ as it goes up
[16:01] <SpeedEvil> it goes from about 1m in diameter to about 10
[16:01] <SpeedEvil> Consider a normal balloon
[16:01] <grummund> hmm, i should stop thinking out loud...
[16:01] <SpeedEvil> it's much harder to start it off, than it is to carry on blowing it up
[16:01] <grummund> but
[16:02] <grummund> isn't it the case that the pressure differential is almost zero (by definition)?
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> pretty close to
[16:03] <grummund> it's only governed by the elasticity of the balloon
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> yes
[16:04] <grummund> so can pressure differential tell you it's about to burst?
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> yes
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> well - no - but pressure differential and some testing of what pressure previous ballons have burst at
[16:07] <SpeedEvil> You need a differential pressure gague capable of resolving pressure differences in the milibarr range, and good to -55c
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[16:59] <fergus_eee> hi all
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[17:36] <jcoxon> ping rjharrison
[17:37] <rjharrison> boo
[17:37] <rjharrison> I see you got my email on the hole size
[17:37] <rjharrison> I'm sure 1.5 will be just cool
[17:38] <jcoxon> its hard to find smaller drill sizes
[17:38] <jcoxon> did you get my telem stuff?
[17:38] <rjharrison> The dremel tools are cool in B&Q
[17:39] <rjharrison> Yep that's great I'll do the telemetry
[17:39] <rjharrison> I may even do it now
[17:39] <rjharrison> If you want to run some tests
[17:39] <jcoxon> yeah that would be great
[17:39] <jcoxon> ummm shift is 350
[17:39] <jcoxon> just the way the resistors are
[17:39] <rjharrison> humm and will shrink on alt
[17:40] <rjharrison> whats the next shift available?
[17:40] <jcoxon> 350 is available
[17:40] <jcoxon> it'll be fine
[17:40] <jcoxon> shift doesn't usually shrink
[17:41] <rjharrison> Oh I thought it did on the last 3 launches
[17:41] <jcoxon> nope
[17:41] <jcoxon> not that i remember
[17:41] <jcoxon> and i can't think why it would really
[17:41] <rjharrison> edmoore
[17:41] <edmoore> hi rjharrison
[17:41] <rjharrison> I thought the cold brought the shift in by ~100 at alt
[17:42] <edmoore> how long is a piece of string
[17:42] <rjharrison> Yep true
[17:42] <edmoore> i don't actually remember tbh
[17:42] <rjharrison> I thought it was the way badger worked as you don't use R's but the same happend on icarus
[17:43] <rjharrison> I think Rocketboy is the observer for this as it makes no difference to the decode from what I can see
[17:43] <jcoxon> i don't remember it happening - we'll have to see then :-)
[17:43] <jcoxon> he could see the payload swinging
[17:44] <rjharrison> We'll put it down for something to look out for tomorrow.
[17:44] <jcoxon> but that was generallised freq chaneges
[17:44] <jcoxon> yes as teh payload will get cold :-s
[17:44] <rjharrison> Any updates on direction?
[17:44] <rjharrison> BTW I just got a flexifoil kite to play with 3.5m
[17:44] <jcoxon> rjharrison, ummmm depends
[17:44] <jcoxon> float above 19km is safe
[17:45] <jcoxon> 20km float landing in east anglia
[17:45] <jcoxon> then the higher the further it'll float west towards wales
[17:45] <rjharrison> 075?
[17:45] <rjharrison> freq?
[17:45] <jcoxon> yup
[17:46] <rjharrison> asci7 or 8
[17:46] <jcoxon> 8
[17:53] <jcoxon> just drilled the new hole
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[18:09] <jcoxon> hey fergus_eee
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[18:55] <jcoxon> bbl
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[21:01] <rjharrison> hi all
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[22:19] <fergusnoble> hi
[22:20] <fergusnoble> jcoxon: all set for tomorrow?
[22:24] <rjharrison> fergusnoble: I think so he seems to be playing with his kit
[22:24] <fergusnoble> cool
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[22:24] <rjharrison> Should be the ultimate floter launch tomorrow
[22:24] <fergusnoble> was thinking of announcing the launch on the cambridge 70cm repeater
[22:24] <rjharrison> Be prepared to be awake for a long time
[22:24] <fergusnoble> see if we can recruit some more trackers
[22:24] <fergusnoble> hehe, yeah
[22:24] <fergusnoble> should be fun
[22:25] <rjharrison> Yep we could do with a spread across the UK
[22:25] <fergusnoble> is there any website people can go to for information?
[22:25] <rjharrison> Do we know the JS direction yet?
[22:25] <fergusnoble> i havn't checked
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> Is there a published list of callsigns/addresses?
[22:25] <fergusnoble> ed said it was mainly westerly
[22:26] <jcoxon> hey all
[22:26] <fergusnoble> hi james
[22:26] <jcoxon> hey
[22:27] <rjharrison> Hey the coxon awakes
[22:27] <jcoxon> sorry - passed my exams woohoo so went out for supper
[22:27] <fergusnoble> nice one!
[22:27] <rjharrison> Do we have a JS update ir shall i jum wunderground
[22:27] <rjharrison> jump
[22:27] <edmoore> fergusnoble: I said it was mainly easterly
[22:27] <jcoxon> wunderground won't help that much
[22:28] <rjharrison> cool
[22:28] <fergusnoble> edmoore: you back
[22:28] <jcoxon> the balloon should float west
[22:28] <rjharrison> So big track across the uk
[22:28] <edmoore> yep. not for too long though
[22:28] <fergusnoble> was going to announce our presence on the repeater
[22:28] <edmoore> just going to pack up and drop t'key back to the plodge
[22:28] <jcoxon> rjharrison, yes
[22:28] <fergusnoble> not sure if im set up right
[22:28] <edmoore> or maybe just keep it on me
[22:31] <rjharrison> wunderground looks like you are going to be in the centre of a high at 300mb#
[22:31] <rjharrison> so could go in a big circle
[22:33] <jcoxon> ping edmoore
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[22:44] <fergusnoble> ok so it looks like 2E0JYK will be listening in :)
[22:44] <jcoxon> hehe good work
[22:44] <jcoxon> :-)
[22:48] <fergusnoble> what time will you be getting into cambridge?
[22:49] <jcoxon> ummm probably 4.30 - 5.00
[22:50] <fergusnoble> cool cool
[22:51] <fergusnoble> your not planning ot go and get this one are you?
[22:51] <jcoxon> got a bad feeling its going to be raining tomorrow
[22:51] <jcoxon> fergusnoble, really depends
[22:51] <fergusnoble> yeah
[22:52] <jcoxon> is there anywhere covered to fill the balloon at churchill?
[22:52] <fergusnoble> hmm, not that i can think of
[22:52] <fergusnoble> its a 1.2kg isnt it?
[22:52] <jcoxon> yup
[22:52] <jcoxon> stealling cusf's one
[22:53] <fergusnoble> ok, thought so
[22:53] <fergusnoble> erm, there are some covered walkways
[22:53] <fergusnoble> but i think they will probably be too low
[22:53] <jcoxon> i feared that
[22:53] <jcoxon> i'll see what i can find at home
[22:53] <jcoxon> perhaps something to help with the rain
[22:54] <jcoxon> am popping back to suffolk tomorrow
[22:54] <fergusnoble> we can sling a tarp up somewhere if you have one
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[22:56] <edmoore> jcoxon: back
[22:56] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[22:57] <jcoxon> we've got some slightly odd data in the server
[22:57] <edmoore> might be me
[22:57] <edmoore> also, we can probably find a place to fill that balloon that's sheltered
[22:57] <edmoore> the pavilion looking onto the cricket pitch
[22:57] <jcoxon> - : ZZ,-,2009-07-16 22:17:15, 51?54'45.37"N, 1? 9'17.46"W,AOR8000,HALF WAVE DIPOLE
[22:57] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[22:57] <edmoore> not me
[22:58] <edmoore> where is the location?
[22:58] Action: SpeedEvil looks.
[22:58] <jcoxon> AOR8000 looks like a scanner to me
[22:59] <edmoore> yes that's john
[22:59] <edmoore> from vorticity
[22:59] <jcoxon> okay
[22:59] <jcoxon> cool all thats required is him to add his callsign/nick and decimal lat/lon
[22:59] <edmoore> i'll ping him tomorrow
[22:59] <edmoore> he doesn't have a callsig
[22:59] <jcoxon> col
[22:59] <jcoxon> cool
[22:59] <jcoxon> nickname is fine
[23:00] <jcoxon> it doesn't actually matter
[23:00] <jcoxon> just something
[23:00] <edmoore> indeed
[23:00] <edmoore> right, anything for me to do before i head off?
[23:00] <edmoore> i'm around from 9 tomorrow
[23:00] <jcoxon> 9am?
[23:00] <edmoore> uhuh
[23:00] <jcoxon> okay i'll be there at 4.30
[23:01] <jcoxon> balloon available? helium? permission from porters?
[23:01] <edmoore> yes to all three
[23:01] <jcoxon> great
[23:01] <jcoxon> thats about it really
[23:02] <edmoore> cool
[23:03] <edmoore> right, am heading off
[23:03] <edmoore> cu
[23:03] <jcoxon> night
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[23:04] <ShellEvil> 167-171 Willow DrBicester, Oxfordshire OX26 3, UK
[23:04] <ShellEvil> (above coords)
[23:04] <jcoxon> ShellEvil, not sure actually address was required!
[23:05] <ShellEvil> I just typed it into google maps - after mangling - and that's what it shot out.
[23:05] <jcoxon> oh right
[23:05] <edmoore> that's my old boss
[23:07] <jcoxon> bbiab
[23:10] Nick change: ShellEvil -> SpeedEvil
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[23:41] <jcoxon> night
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[00:00] --- Fri Jul 17 2009