highaltitude.log.20090715

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[01:31] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
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[04:23] <Rya2> hi, is anyone familer with LassenIQ I am also using an evaluation board http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8334 but it's the previous model evaluation board with a single usb connector
[04:24] <Rya2> there's no longer any information about it that I could find, and I know that the GPS module works because I've connected to it several times, and no apparent reason I can't connect to it any more
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[08:08] <jcoxon> morning all
[08:09] <jcoxon> hi Rya2
[08:09] <jcoxon> having troubles with the lassen iq?
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[09:55] <jcoxon> hey RocketBoy
[09:57] <RocketBoy> hiya
[09:57] <RocketBoy> hows launch plans?
[09:57] <jcoxon> yeah now just trying to work them out
[09:57] <jcoxon> the key thing is the balloon really
[09:58] <jcoxon> and the 350g isn't going to cut it
[09:59] <RocketBoy> :-(
[09:59] <jcoxon> from flight prediction i think a friday evening launch will do well
[09:59] <jcoxon> and as long as it gets above about 18km it should stay in the UK
[10:07] Action: RocketBoy (just running some sims)
[10:10] <jcoxon> i think rjharrison might have a 1.5kg
[10:12] <RocketBoy> I'd ask him - i should have some more in about a weeks time
[10:12] <jcoxon> okay will text him now
[10:13] <jcoxon> you going to launch?
[10:13] <jcoxon> i'm not sure the weather is that great
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[10:19] <Rya2> ah yes having many troubles
[10:20] <Rya2> would you happen to have used that particular evaluation board?
[10:21] <jcoxon> i haven't but there are regulars here who have
[10:21] <jcoxon> just thought i'd contact you so that you didn't think people weren't listening
[10:21] <Rya2> np
[10:21] <jcoxon> i assume the board as usb->serial converter chip - do you have the right driver?
[10:23] <Rya2> yep, I have working in the past, I was getting tsip out, I never managed to get nmea output that was actually meaningful
[10:24] <Rya2> funny thing is all I really wanted was gps with an external antenna
[10:25] <Rya2> I found one that would suit, but its bugging me about the iQ because I know it works
[10:27] <jcoxon> Rya2, thats a bit odd
[10:27] <jcoxon> about the lack of meaningful nmea
[10:29] <Rya2> yeh when I had it working in tsip I should have switched it to the second output rather than trying to change the first output to nmea, I think it was just indicating that it had no lock
[10:29] <jcoxon> Rya2, well the second output still probably has nmea coming out of it
[10:29] <jcoxon> so you could try and tap that
[10:32] <Rya2> yeh maybe, I wonder if I need to build up the almanac in tsip first?
[10:32] <jcoxon> that could be an issue
[10:33] <jcoxon> there is a regular here - Laurenceb who has lots of experience with lassens and gps in general
[10:36] <Rya2> ok cool will keep an eye out for him
[10:36] <Rya2> wow, I just looked at the website is that a photo from one of the balloons?
[10:37] <jcoxon> which website?
[10:37] <jcoxon> probably
[10:37] <jcoxon> :-)
[10:37] <Rya2> the high alt thing
[10:37] <jcoxon> yes
[10:37] <jcoxon> most of the dicussion here is balloon based
[10:39] <Rya2> I always remember seeing a documentary about the nasa guy who did sky dive from high-altitude baloon and did a 12 minute freefall
[10:40] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
[10:40] <jcoxon> yeah
[10:40] <jcoxon> Rya2, you in the US?
[10:41] <jcoxon> http://www.bbc.co.uk/bang/ and check out the video "Space oddity"
[10:41] <Rya2> australia
[10:41] <jcoxon> oh okay
[10:42] <jcoxon> i'm planning a 'long duration' flight this weekend
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[10:43] <Rya2> you do manned too?
[10:43] <jcoxon> sadly not,
[10:44] <Rya2> so gps is that mainly to help recovery?
[10:44] <jcoxon> yes
[10:44] <jcoxon> we send the gps data back over the radio
[10:44] <jcoxon> which allows us to follow it
[10:45] <jcoxon> gets mapped here
[10:45] <jcoxon> http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[10:45] <Rya2> ahh stray much?
[10:45] <jcoxon> yes, unfortunately the winds here are quite strong
[10:45] <jcoxon> so there is always a risk of the sea...
[10:46] <Rya2> badger is still up?
[10:47] <jcoxon> no that was a while ago
[10:47] <jcoxon> it landed in the sea
[10:47] <jcoxon> they got a boat to find it but when they made it to where the last position report was it had gone
[10:48] <Rya2> ok, that must be why the chase car stopped halfway, they were like oops its gone to sea
[10:48] <jcoxon> actually the chase car was having difficulty reporting its position
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[10:57] <jcoxon> morning edmoore
[10:57] <edmoore> morning!
[10:57] <jcoxon> how was the presentation
[10:57] <jcoxon> ?
[10:58] <edmoore> went well thanks, we're all v happy and relieved
[10:58] <jcoxon> excellent
[10:59] <edmoore> so - crossing the north sea
[10:59] <jcoxon> or not if the forecasts hold...
[10:59] <jcoxon> perhaps a trip to wales
[11:00] <jcoxon> to tell you the truth it all depends on if i can find a bigger balloon
[11:00] <jcoxon> basically with a friday evening launch if it can get above about 18km it'll stay in the UK
[11:00] <jcoxon> the higher the further it'll travel west
[11:03] <edmoore> oh neat
[11:03] <edmoore> we can lend u a 1.2 iuw
[11:04] <jcoxon> yes please
[11:04] <jcoxon> that'll do the job perfectly
[11:04] <jcoxon> i'll get you a 1.5 off RocketBoy when they arrive next week
[11:05] <jcoxon> you free on friday then?
[11:08] <edmoore> yep
[11:08] <jcoxon> excellent
[11:08] <jcoxon> is churchill free?
[11:08] <edmoore> most probably
[11:08] <jcoxon> and also his helium available or should i organise some?
[11:09] <edmoore> no no, mates rates apply
[11:11] <jcoxon> okay
[11:11] <jcoxon> great
[11:11] <jcoxon> payload is finished
[11:12] <jcoxon> just finishing the cutdown rigging
[11:12] <edmoore> may order a couple more long yagis
[11:12] <edmoore> looks like we might need them
[11:13] <jcoxon> edmoore, we should plan the stuff we want to measure at launch
[11:13] <jcoxon> as a step towards a sort of model
[11:14] <edmoore> yes indeed.
[11:14] <jcoxon> and i'll email the lists to rally some listener
[11:14] <jcoxon> s
[11:15] <jcoxon> i think ed the best approach is to just launch the damn thing whatever the weather
[11:15] <jcoxon> if it goes west woohoo if it goes east got to hope it makes it...
[11:17] <edmoore> science!
[11:18] <jcoxon> ?
[11:21] <jcoxon> okay so sunset is at 21:12
[11:21] <jcoxon> so we want to reach peak a bit before that
[11:22] <jcoxon> i'm thinking 18.00 - 18.30 launch
[11:23] <edmoore> that sounds good to me
[11:24] <jcoxon> hmmm i might be falling into a gmt/bst trap
[11:24] <jcoxon> one sec
[11:26] <jcoxon> i think perhap 17.30 might be better
[11:27] <jcoxon> nah 18:00 will be fine
[11:32] <edmoore> sure?
[11:32] <jcoxon> well 2 - 2.5 hrs up
[11:33] <jcoxon> so reach float at 20.30
[11:33] <jcoxon> sunset 21.12
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[11:33] <edmoore> ok
[11:35] <jcoxon> sounds sensible?
[11:35] <jcoxon> i guess though the ascent rate will decrease though
[11:35] <edmoore> yeah
[11:36] <edmoore> sunset is later up there too
[11:36] <jcoxon> true
[11:36] <edmoore> ~40 mins iirc
[11:38] <jcoxon> 18:00 will be fine then
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[12:13] <mc-_> jcoxon, good luck with the launch, Im traveling so cant listen in
[12:14] <jcoxon> mc-_, thanks, you should be able to track online if you have internet access
[12:23] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jcoxon' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[12:23] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jcoxon!n=jcoxon@host81-159-26-92.range81-159.btcentralplus.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk, wiki.ukhas.org.uk - Launch: BallestHalo 1, 17/07/09 18:00 BST
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[12:25] <mc-_> did you need a larger balloon so you ascend quickly ?
[12:26] <jcoxon> yes and also as a up at 25km or so we aren't going to travel too much
[12:27] <jcoxon> the smaller balloon couldn't physically get to that height
[12:30] <jcoxon> bbl
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[13:32] <edmoore> hi all
[13:33] <edmoore> some new faces around - greetings russss, ms7821
[13:33] <edmoore> jcoxon: still around?
[13:33] <russss> hey :) we dropped in from #london-hack-space
[13:34] <edmoore> oh awesome - yeah james mentioned he went
[13:34] <edmoore> I'm in Cambridge but live just the other side of Guildford
[13:35] <russss> I used to live in Guildford
[13:35] <edmoore> where abouts?
[13:35] <russss> pilgrims way, off the shalford road
[13:36] <ms7821> hi edmoore
[13:36] <edmoore> oh very close then. cranleigh, I was
[13:36] <edmoore> hi ms7821
[13:37] <ms7821> do you know how big this balloon is? will I need a telescope to see it from ~8 miles?
[13:38] <edmoore> well it will be 20 miles up
[13:38] <edmoore> if it's clear day you can see it with a pair of binos
[13:38] <edmoore> fairly easily
[13:38] <edmoore> especially if you catch it after sunset on the ground (but still in the sun up at 20km)
[13:38] <edmoore> it has a nice high albedo
[13:39] <ms7821> ahh that's a better idea...
[13:39] <ms7821> although it's raining tonight
[13:39] <edmoore> where are you looking from?
[13:39] <edmoore> I think the launch is Friday
[13:39] <ms7821> doh, can't tell the date
[13:41] <ms7821> hmm friday is very rainy
[13:43] <edmoore> I think your best bet is to look at a different bit of the EM spectrum
[13:43] <edmoore> like 434Mhz
[13:44] <edmoore> if you're ~8m away, do you mind if I ask where you are?
[13:45] <ms7821> cb21 6as
[13:46] <edmoore> ok cool
[13:46] <ms7821> actually 9m SE of Churchill
[13:46] <edmoore> you could pop along to the launch
[13:46] <edmoore> we'll have all the tracking gear on site and probably some food and drink :)
[13:46] <ms7821> I might do, actually
[13:48] <edmoore> I need to get some extra antennas, actually. Looks like it could be a long range one
[13:49] <edmoore> the little whip antennas might not cut it.
[14:17] <edmoore> jcoxon: what protocol are you using on Friday?
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[15:18] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[15:18] <jcoxon> back now
[15:18] <jcoxon> ummmm rtty, ukhas standard but shortened
[15:18] <edmoore> ok cool
[15:18] <edmoore> 50 baud ascii 7?
[15:19] <jcoxon> so ticks,time,lat,lon,alt,ascentrate,cutdown_num,countdown_reason
[15:19] <jcoxon> ascii 8
[15:19] <jcoxon> but dl-fldigi will be set up to work appropriately
[15:26] Action: Daviey wishes he had a UHF reciever
[15:27] <Daviey> Chaps.. what UHF tranciever do you recommend?
[15:28] <jcoxon> Daviey, our favourite radio right now i reckon is the ft-817
[15:28] <jcoxon> however its a little bit pricey and does lots
[15:28] <jcoxon> after that for 70cm, ssb probably the old school ft-790r
[15:29] <Daviey> hmm wondered if a handheld one would cut it.
[15:29] <jcoxon> depends what for
[15:30] <jcoxon> yes quite possibly they are increasingly better
[15:30] <jcoxon> for balloon tracking it needs to do SSB which adds to the price really
[15:33] <jcoxon> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Yaesu-FT-790r-MINT-boxed-with-original-extras-70cms_W0QQitemZ300329788984QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ConsumerElectronics_SpecialistRadioEquipment_SM?hash=item45ed0ce638&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1683|293%3A1|294%3A50
[15:41] <jcoxon> edmoore, got a good deal on lithium batteries - tescos only charged me 3.60 for 4 AAs
[15:41] <jcoxon> i think they made a mistake, not going to complain
[15:42] <edmoore> jcoxon: can't complain about that!
[15:42] <jcoxon> well you know what i mean :-)
[15:43] Action: SpeedEvil has recently downloaded the entire tesco website.
[15:43] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, !
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> Which was perhaps a slight overreaction to being unable to sort cooking oil by price.
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> I notice that diet lemonade, and gravel are about the same price per ton.
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[16:13] <jcoxon> woohoo cutdown works
[16:19] <jcoxon> ping edmoore
[16:19] <edmoore> yo
[16:19] <jcoxon> okay jus about to construct the vent
[16:19] <jcoxon> thinking about hole size
[16:19] <jcoxon> give me one sec i'll post some pics of what i've got
[16:20] <edmoore> ok cool
[16:26] <jcoxon> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/3723269707/
[16:27] <jcoxon> was going to pop a whole into the centre of the cap
[16:27] <jcoxon> its a little over-engineered by b and q were suprisingly rubbish
[16:27] <jcoxon> but*
[16:29] <edmoore> perfect
[16:29] <edmoore> and gives you a nice place to attach aswell
[16:29] <edmoore> no risk of the loop slipping off
[16:29] <jcoxon> yes
[16:29] <jcoxon> okay so wb8elk used a 1.5mm hole for a 1.5kg and got to 30km
[16:30] <jcoxon> and you've offered a 1.2
[16:31] <edmoore> i think it's a question of differential pressure
[16:31] <edmoore> which I think might not be that dependant on balloon size
[16:31] <edmoore> but I'm not sure
[16:32] <jcoxon> apart from the bigger balloon the less stretched therefore more forced
[16:32] <edmoore> i would stay with the same size hole - at least with some variables the same you have more grounds for comparison with his flight
[16:32] <edmoore> well, eventually the balloons start to draw
[16:32] <edmoore> i.e. their go from elastic to plastic
[16:32] <edmoore> and that's constant force, not dependant on balloon size
[16:33] <edmoore> it just irrevocably stretches out till it can stretch (draw) no more
[16:35] <jcoxon> okay
[16:35] <jcoxon> cool
[16:35] <jcoxon> right i'll go and find an appropriate drill bit
[16:35] <jcoxon> just tested the cutdown - very pleased
[16:36] <edmoore> awesome
[16:36] <edmoore> I am excited about this launch
[16:36] <jcoxon> i am as well
[16:36] <jcoxon> just recharging some batteries to do a quick test
[16:36] <jcoxon> going to keep testing the payload
[16:36] <jcoxon> need to plan the cutdown criteria
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[16:43] <jcoxon> okay found my smallest drill bit
[16:43] <jcoxon> 1.5mm pretty much
[16:45] <Daviey> jcoxon: Sorry, work got in the way. Thanks
[16:45] <Daviey> Shame i won't be able to track this time :(
[16:46] <jcoxon> well tracking online will be helpful
[16:46] <jcoxon> people are often keep an eye on it and run forecasts etc
[16:46] <Daviey> However, i live in Devon - so if it drifts South of Wales i have a chance to follow it using others feeds :)
[16:46] <jcoxon> Daviey, actually you might be able to track it
[16:47] <jcoxon> check out global tuners
[16:47] <Daviey> ooo
[16:47] <jcoxon> there are a number of online radio receivers
[16:48] <Daviey> I imagine the tracker uses multiple feeds to get it's data anyway?
[16:48] <jcoxon> yes
[16:49] <jcoxon> http://maps.google.com/?q=http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/receivers.php&t=p
[16:49] <jcoxon> but as you can see they are mainly east UK
[16:49] <jcoxon> so if it goes west we are going to need something
[16:49] <jcoxon> if necessary i'll use global tuners
[16:50] <jcoxon> on my mac using soundflower i can pipe the received radio from the website into dl-fldigi to decode
[16:50] <jcoxon> edmoore, i think the hole is a bit more like 2mm rather then 1.5mm :-s
[16:51] <jcoxon> will get a second attachement and find a smaller drill bit
[16:51] <jcoxon> will give me options on launch day
[16:51] <edmoore> that's a 1.5 times increase in area
[16:51] <edmoore> quite a lot
[16:52] <edmoore> i'd just stick with 1.5 and try hard to plug the others
[16:52] <jcoxon> fair enough
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[16:52] <jcoxon> will sort it tomorrow
[16:53] <jcoxon> will pop and get a smaller drill bit
[16:54] <Daviey> jcoxon: Well when i get a transciever sorted you have the south west covered :)
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[17:00] <Daviey> BTW, have you come across Ardupilot? Thought it might be useful for the guided recovery of future projects
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> Also there is another one on here
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> There was a song about it, wich reminded me...
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> Woo!
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> Lightning
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> within about 2km
[17:01] <jcoxon> Daviey, yeah i've seen it - looks very interesting
[17:01] <jcoxon> not sure how it'll cope being dropped from 30km :-p
[17:02] <Daviey> heh
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> Disco Stick?
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> Papparazi
[17:02] Action: SpeedEvil can't remember how to spell that
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> #papparazi - or whatever
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> another autopilot
[17:02] Action: Daviey needs to make better use of his arduino
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[17:06] <SpeedEvil> 1.8km
[17:07] <SpeedEvil> 1Km
[17:08] Action: SpeedEvil goes to batteryt
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[18:15] <jcoxon> bbl
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[19:42] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[19:43] <edmoore> hiho
[19:43] <jcoxon> is there anything else i need to organise for friday?
[19:43] <edmoore> not that I can think of
[19:44] <jcoxon> cool cool
[19:44] <jcoxon> need to sort out dl-fldigi
[19:44] <edmoore> what's up with it?
[19:44] <jcoxon> nothing, just that there is a new revisio
[19:45] <jcoxon> need to make some binaries
[19:46] <edmoore> include windoze too - my old boss, who we're doing the ESA work with, may have a listen
[19:46] <edmoore> he's got a scanner that does ssb and is good to 0.2uV
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[19:46] <edmoore> he's windows based on his desktop machines
[19:47] <edmoore> bizarre, given he's a razor sharp linux sysadmin aswel as being alright at landing probes on other planets
[19:47] <jcoxon> okay we'll sort that out
[19:47] <jcoxon> edmoore, just to check - you've got a 1.2kg avaliable?
[19:48] <edmoore> well actually let me just check something - RocketBoy when is the next balloon order coming in?
[19:48] <jcoxon> next week
[19:48] <edmoore> oh ok, then yes
[19:48] <edmoore> there's a 1.2 for you
[19:48] <jcoxon> great
[19:50] <jcoxon> edmoore, can i get you to test my latest mac binary?
[19:50] <edmoore> go on
[19:50] <jcoxon> will upload it
[19:51] <rjharrison> Hi edmoore et al
[19:51] <rjharrison> Looks like we have some fun comming tomorrow
[19:51] <edmoore> hi rjharrison
[19:51] <edmoore> ?
[19:51] <jcoxon> rjharrison, friday
[19:51] <rjharrison> Ohh
[19:51] <rjharrison> Still in holiday mode
[19:51] <rjharrison> Yep Friday
[19:53] <jcoxon> edmoore, okay rob is doing the windows binary
[19:53] <edmoore> cool
[19:54] <jcoxon> edmoore, http://dl-fldigi.googlecode.com/files/fldigi-3.11.4.dmg
[19:56] <edmoore> 15kb/s from google on a fibre optic link
[19:56] <edmoore> something is going on...
[20:01] <jcoxon> forecasts are still good
[20:02] <edmoore> it's running
[20:02] <jcoxon> just need to get over 19km
[20:02] <jcoxon> cool
[20:20] <rjharrison> jcoxon: is there any way of seeing what version you are running from the client side?
[20:21] <rjharrison> BTW are we parsing version back to the server now?
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[20:48] <jcoxon> rjharrison, i haven't added that feature
[20:48] <jcoxon> so not yet
[20:51] <rjharrison> Latest windows distributed listening client available on google code http://code.google.com/p/dl-fldigi/downloads/list
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> http://www.google.co.uk/ig - view source - about 8 lines down
[21:12] <ms7821> YUI?
[21:14] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil: ?
[21:15] <rjharrison> I'm not sure what you are on about there
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[21:29] <SpeedEvil> Copyright (c) 2007, Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> Just amused
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> me
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[21:42] <jcoxon> hmmmm cutdown rules
[21:43] <edmoore> what are you concerned about?
[21:43] <jcoxon> lat/lon square
[21:43] <jcoxon> oh right
[21:43] <edmoore> if you're sure it's going west, give it a max distance so it doesn't wander into irish sea
[21:44] <jcoxon> my concern is that if its still floating it could carry on to ireland!
[21:44] <jcoxon> i think its fair
[21:44] <jcoxon> i've also a
[21:44] <jcoxon> i've also put the other side over hte netherlands
[21:45] <jcoxon> as if it goes east to europe i think its best to cutdown asap
[21:46] <jcoxon> my second rule is if between 1000 and 14000m and ascentrate drops to 0.5m/s over 10 samples - cutdown
[21:47] <jcoxon> rule three is if above 1000 and ascentrate = -1.0 over 10 samples cutdown
[21:47] <edmoore> to just stop it spending hours and hours in airspace?
[21:47] <edmoore> i guess you could be heading over heathrow
[21:47] <jcoxon> yes
[21:48] <jcoxon> and the third rule is to stop it descendings down slowly
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> over 10 samples - is that maybe a bit short?
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> Or is that >1s per sample
[21:52] <jcoxon> thats about 3 mins
[21:52] <jcoxon> each sample is taken after 1 string of telem
[21:53] <jcoxon> which is about 10seconds
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> ah.
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> do you want to assume that the GPS will always have good signal?
[21:54] <jcoxon> well if not then we can't work out hte ascentrate
[21:55] <jcoxon> at that sort of alt with a ublox gps i'd expect good gps all the time
[21:55] <SpeedEvil> I mean - do you want to assume stuff is worst-case if you lose GPS for 3 minutes, and ascentrate is 0
[21:57] <DanielRichman> Isn't three minutes a bit short to make cutdown decisions?
[21:58] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, i'm not sure
[21:58] <jcoxon> we want it to fire
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[22:07] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, are your rules along the lines of, "if it stays below X for Y amount of time, cutdown"? Or is it an average over that time period
[22:07] <DanielRichman> Can you give the flight computer the heathrow aeroplane paths information and factor that in?
[22:09] <DanielRichman> gtg... be back tomorrow
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[22:09] <jcoxon> thats a little complicated
[22:09] <edmoore> too late
[22:12] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about seeing the shuttle on TAL
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> (which is vanishingly unlikely)
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> ...
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> dynamic pressure
[22:14] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
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[22:56] <jcoxon> oooo some spainish hab project : http://www.neslabproject.com/
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[23:10] <jcoxon> edmoore, do you have a CHDK script lying around?
[23:10] <jcoxon> got an email asking if i had one lying around
[23:10] <edmoore> lying around on a chdk sd card which I'm afriad I don't have lying around
[23:10] <jcoxon> oh well
[23:17] <jcoxon> night all
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[00:00] --- Thu Jul 16 2009