highaltitude.log.20090702

[00:07] <Laurenceb> maybe an open cell plastic foam
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[02:18] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
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[11:11] <RocketBoy> SpeedEvil: thanks for the info on NickServ GHOST - it seems to work
[11:12] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:26] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
[11:28] <edmoore> RocketBoy: yo
[11:30] <RocketBoy> hiya
[11:31] <edmoore> can we put in a fairly firm order for 3 x 3kgs?
[11:31] <RocketBoy> sure
[11:32] <RocketBoy> I'll give 'em a ring tonight
[11:46] <edmoore> ta
[11:46] <edmoore> + the usual few 1.5kgs if that's ok
[11:48] <RocketBoy> The 1500 wont be available until October (so they said last time i spoke) - do you want any 1200 instead (2000 arn't good value IMO)
[11:49] <edmoore> ok yes please
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[13:15] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[13:34] <edmoore> jcoxon jcoxon jcoxon ping
[13:55] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[14:01] <jcoxon> ping ping edmoore edmoore edmoore
[14:09] <edmoore> yo
[14:10] <edmoore> jcoxon: have you bumped into gphoto on your travels?
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> gphoto is OK.
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> cameras are variably supported, as they have variable capabilities inherently.
[14:11] <edmoore> so I am learning
[14:11] <edmoore> the ex-f1 isn't officially, but it sort of responds to prods
[14:11] <edmoore> wondered if it might be of use for sstv
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> do similar models support take photo commands?
[14:11] <edmoore> given it solves some of the problems we talked about
[14:12] <jcoxon> edmoore, i've got quite a bit of experience
[14:13] <jcoxon> for remote control see here: http://www.gphoto.org/doc/remote/
[14:14] <jcoxon> edmoore, the only thing is that we downgrade the quality of the image so much before sending it that a 'good' camera is a little bit of a waste
[14:14] <jcoxon> i've got my eye on the nikon coolpix 2500
[14:15] <jcoxon> its oldschool, only 2MP but i have a feeling i might be able ot get it to store the images on its CF card as well as downloading them
[14:15] <jcoxon> (unlike the powershot which only allows you to transfer the images over usb without it saving them to its memory)
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[16:23] <Laurenceb> hi all
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[16:28] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: ping
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> o
[16:34] <Laurenceb> hi
[16:35] <Laurenceb> I was looking at lipo powered pumping
[16:35] <Laurenceb> its actually quite good
[16:36] <Laurenceb> saves about 1Kg of dry mass per 30Kg of fuel - relative to LN2
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[16:37] <Laurenceb> lipo - brushless inrunner motor - vane pump
[16:39] <Laurenceb> then you can use a lightweight plastic tank at ~10psi
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> intereting
[16:40] <Laurenceb> I think a 95% fuel fraction is feasible
[16:41] <Laurenceb> and thats just not possible with CF tank and LN2 pressurisation
[16:42] <SpeedEvil> don't you then run into issues with
[16:42] <SpeedEvil> structural?
[16:42] <Laurenceb> maybe 92% fuel to be more sensible
[16:42] <SpeedEvil> one side-effect of a 600PSI tank is it's nice and rigid
[16:43] <Laurenceb> I chose 10psi as its enough to maintain strenght
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> I is?
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> It is?
[16:43] <Laurenceb> you launch straight into a gravity turn from the balloon
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> With several Gs accelleration at teh end?
[16:43] <Laurenceb> yes
[16:43] <Laurenceb> ~8G
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> You're now consideing going to a plastic wall - not CF?
[16:44] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:44] <Laurenceb> CF walls that thin are hard to make / buy
[16:44] <Laurenceb> probably PET
[16:45] <Laurenceb> <1mm, maybe 15cm diameter
[16:45] <Laurenceb> - <1mm wall thickness
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> Al?
[16:45] <Laurenceb> hmm the strenght to weight of PET is quite high
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> 15cm*10PSI is what
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> it's also floppy
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> 1000N?
[16:46] <Laurenceb> hence the pressure
[16:46] <Laurenceb> 1call it 100Kpa
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> what width?
[16:46] <Laurenceb> 1mm
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> err
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> height
[16:46] <Laurenceb> depends on the stage mass
[16:47] <Laurenceb> I was working with a 32Kg of fuel stage for reference
[16:47] <Laurenceb> 1.4m long
[16:48] <Laurenceb> so thats 7.5Mpa in the PET
[16:48] <Laurenceb> and 650 grams tank mass
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> That's not very rigid - what - 50N or so in the middle will cause it to buckle
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> (bend it like a bananna - when the skin tension goes to 0
[16:50] <Laurenceb> you can raise the pressure
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[16:50] <Laurenceb> 7.5Mpa is much less than PET will take
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> how much does doubling the diameter cost?
[16:50] <Laurenceb> some air resistance
[16:50] <Laurenceb> and harder to source the tube
[16:51] <Laurenceb> but mass fraction nothing
[16:51] <Laurenceb> theres a fixed ratio between thickness and radius
[16:51] <SpeedEvil> 0.5mm or so steel is getting into the 'weldable annoyingly' territory
[16:52] <Laurenceb> steel has a low strenght to weight
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> Or even Al
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> And yes - bt it's a hell of a lot more rigid than PET
[16:53] <Laurenceb> you mean youngs modulus?
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> ye
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> s
[16:53] <Laurenceb> hmm
[16:54] <Laurenceb> spot welded alu?
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> I would want nice continuous seams
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> I know that can be tricky with Al, due to the HAZ
[16:57] <Laurenceb> hmm yeah alu is way better than PET
[16:58] <Laurenceb> kind of annoying
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> what steel were you doing the numbers on?
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> HSLA - the stuff used in cars - isn't bad
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSLA_steel
[17:00] <Laurenceb> hmm
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[17:00] <Laurenceb> assembly is the issue
[17:01] <Laurenceb> not sure how you build the tank
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> find someone good with a welder, and test it lots
[17:03] <Laurenceb> hmm PET tube with cables between bulkheads
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> that doesn't help that much
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> in terms of rigidity
[17:03] <Laurenceb> steel cable
[17:04] <Laurenceb> hmm guess theres loads of oscillatory modes
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> And you're offloading the sidewlls - which can make some modes worse
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> once the tension on the wall goes to 0, bad things happen
[17:10] <Laurenceb> aluminium is probably the most sensible
[17:10] <Laurenceb> wonder if you could glue it
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> That's not that bad an option - especially if you have a wide gluebond
[17:14] <Laurenceb> http://www.finishing.com/105/19.shtml
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> lap it round something like a tenth of the diameter
[17:14] <Laurenceb> "I have an aluminum tank in a vessel which has sprung a seam leak. Unfortunately, this is on a sewage tank " <- lol
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> epoxy - properly prepared - and that's a bitch - works well.
[17:15] <Laurenceb> you mean the surface?
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alodine
[17:17] <Laurenceb> what are you getting at?
[17:18] <Laurenceb> that gives a better bond?
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[17:27] <Laurenceb> http://www.westsystem.com/ss/patch-holes-in-aluminum-boats-with-g-flex-epoxy/
[17:31] <Laurenceb> http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=8593 <- something like that would work
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[17:38] <SpeedEvil> yes - alodine - or chromate conversion - leads to a much stronger bond.
[17:40] <Laurenceb> they use some sort of etching compound
[17:44] <Laurenceb> http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=8917&Product_Name=ZIPPY_Flightmax_2650mAh_6S1P_30C_
[17:44] <Laurenceb> that motor I linked together with that battery would power a 32Kg of fuel stage
[17:44] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[17:45] <Laurenceb> submerge it all ion the kerosene to cool it
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> windage will be _lots_ more if you do that
[17:48] <Laurenceb> windage?
[17:49] <Laurenceb> its an outrunner motor, so the kerosene wont actually be in contact with the runner
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[17:50] <Laurenceb> erm *inrunner
[17:50] <Fighter1405> Afternoon :0
[17:50] <Fighter1405> *:)
[17:50] <Laurenceb> hi
[17:50] <Fighter1405> Hey
[17:51] <Laurenceb> so the windings conduct through the aluminium outer case to the kerosene
[17:51] <Laurenceb> helping to cool it
[17:55] <Laurenceb> if you had a first stage of that sort of mass with a spun solid second stage similar to martlet, you can reach orbit
[17:55] <Laurenceb> unfortunately there < 100grams payload
[18:06] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I was meaning if you fill the air-gap with kerosens
[18:06] <Laurenceb> yeah sure
[18:06] <Laurenceb> thats not what I was thinking
[18:06] <Laurenceb> hence the use of an inrunner motor
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[18:07] <Laurenceb> its certainly feasible for an n-prize style launcher
[18:08] <Laurenceb> ~37Kg GLOW, 30Km balloon launch, ~2m long, 15cm diamter launcher
[18:09] <SpeedEvil> Especially if you can say 'bugger it' - when you realise you can't quite make it, and jam another teeny third stage on.
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> solid
[18:10] <Laurenceb> you can get ~9Km/s delta v
[18:10] <Laurenceb> you need about 8.6 for a 30km balloon on the equator
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[18:11] <Laurenceb> to get to a 220Km orbit
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> hmm
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[18:13] Action: Laurenceb was looking at the black arrow design
[18:14] <Laurenceb> they used a spun solid thrid stage
[18:17] <Laurenceb> youd need a cnc milled injector bulkhead with the casing for the vane opumps built in
[18:22] <Laurenceb> you could use seperate motors for fuel and oxidiser, then a single controller allowing oxidiser to fuel to be varied
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[18:26] <Xenion> Guten Abend / Good Evening ! :-)
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[18:45] <Laurenceb> http://garvspace.com/NLV.htm <- very intervesting
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[18:52] <Laurenceb> looks like helium pressurisation
[18:53] <Laurenceb> with pumped propellants a gymballed engine might be feasible
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> What pumping efficiency were you assuming?
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> (over ideal)
[18:54] <Laurenceb> hadnt got that far
[18:54] <Laurenceb> well built vane pump has got to be pretty efficient
[18:55] <Laurenceb> its more a case of how much you can overdrive the motor with kerosene cooling
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> umm...
[18:55] <Laurenceb> the pump can be very small
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> Some of the limit to the motor perfomance might be saturation/demagnetisation
[18:56] <Laurenceb> hmm one point... but they do overheat
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[18:56] <Laurenceb> I was thinking about 1.5cm diameter oxidser pump
[18:57] <Laurenceb> at about 30000rpm
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> that's very fast for a fluid pump - cavitation?
[18:57] <Laurenceb> yeah its a matter of getting the right feed pressure
[18:58] <Laurenceb> but you want that quite high anyway
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> probably, yes
[18:58] <Laurenceb> ~50psi maybe
[18:58] <Laurenceb> for structural integrity
[19:05] <Laurenceb> faster motors are lighter
[19:05] <SpeedEvil> yep
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> as to first order, torque=weight
[19:06] <Laurenceb> maybe a rotor
[19:06] <Laurenceb> - centrifugal pump
[19:14] <Laurenceb> gtg, cya
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[19:43] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:45] <Fighter1405> hey jcoxon
[19:46] <jcoxon> hey Fighter1405
[19:46] <Fighter1405> How are you?
[19:46] <jcoxon> good thanks
[19:47] <Fighter1405> good :)
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[19:48] <Laurenceb> hi
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[20:27] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: centrifugal pumps seem to work well... if you can avoid cavitation
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> no vanes to rub or many moving parts
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> getting the exact shape right isn't fun
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> also - what diameter do you require at even 30000RPM to get 600PSI - or whatever
[20:30] <Laurenceb> ~20mm
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> that sounds low
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> radius?
[20:31] <Laurenceb> no diameter
[20:32] <Laurenceb> - I was thinking of running a bit faster maybe
[20:32] <Laurenceb> you can decrease the motor mass
[20:32] <SpeedEvil> Ok - 9000G if I'm not blowing the sums at the edge
[20:33] <Laurenceb> sounds about right
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[20:33] <SpeedEvil> that's about a centimeter of head *9000G= 50m of head at 1G (or so)
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> = about 5 bar, or 75PSI?
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[20:35] <Laurenceb> I get a few Mpa
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> 100m of head = 1MPa
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> (ish)
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> actually - a little more for H2O2
[20:36] <Laurenceb> call density 10^3, then accel=10^5
[20:36] <Laurenceb> head=10^-2
[20:37] <Laurenceb> giving 10^6
[20:37] <Laurenceb> pressure
[20:37] <SpeedEvil> That sets off my wrongometer.
[20:37] Action: SpeedEvil ponders.
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> ah
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> you're assuming that the accelleration is constant over the whole diameter for one
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> also 10^6 is only 10 bar, or 150PSI
[20:40] <SpeedEvil> 140
[20:40] <Laurenceb> probably needs to be ~40mm diameter
[20:40] <SpeedEvil> I wonder how hard the seals are
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[20:41] <SpeedEvil> Doesn't strike me as impossible.
[20:41] <SpeedEvil> hmm - I suppoe you can have the seal leak into the tank, if you do it right
[20:42] <Laurenceb> well the motor would have to be in the kerosene
[20:42] <Laurenceb> but youd need a seal of some sort between the kero and peroxide rotors
[20:42] <Laurenceb> hopefully a bearing would work
[20:44] <Laurenceb> just has to stop the propellants leaking into one anothe rbefore launch
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> oh - you're wanting one motor
[20:45] <Laurenceb> it saves weight
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> true
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[20:54] <Laurenceb> of course you might as well go for a H2O2 turbopump :P
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> that raises catalysis issues though
[20:58] <Laurenceb> then theres a steam injector type arrangement of course
[21:01] <Hiena> Why not a steam pressurization system?
[21:02] <Laurenceb> it would damage carbon fibre tanks
[21:05] <Hiena> If it used as jetpump?
[21:05] <Hiena> I don't think so.
[21:06] <Laurenceb> yeah thats what I was suggesting
[21:06] <Laurenceb> sorry I misunderstood you
[21:07] <Hiena> For the engine not really matter how pure the fuel when it's enters to the chamber.
[21:08] <Hiena> Also if the pump is close enough to the injector, doesn't really matter, how much peroxide remains in the steam.
[21:08] <Laurenceb> yeah
[21:08] <Laurenceb> it will start to combust the fuel...
[21:09] <Laurenceb> not sure if that is a problem
[21:10] <Laurenceb> manybe burn a diluted methanol/H2O2 mix to produce steam and CO2 at 1000C or so
[21:11] <Laurenceb> sort of a staged rocket engine
[21:14] <Laurenceb> unfortunately its not very efficient, you need about 10% of the propellant mass in injector fuel
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[23:26] <Laurenceb> argg why is it so hot
[23:26] Action: Laurenceb blames american co2 emissions
[23:27] <SpeedEvil> It's just hot enough here.
[23:27] <Laurenceb> I need a fan and a large thermal mass in my room - the temperature isnt too bad at night
[23:27] <Laurenceb> 32C earlier today
[23:27] <SpeedEvil> About 25C I suspect
[23:27] <Laurenceb> thats ok - I prefer 15C
[23:27] <SpeedEvil> which is about the max temp I prefer in the sun
[23:27] <Laurenceb> between 10 and 20 is perfect
[23:27] <SpeedEvil> 15C is better if you're doing anything.
[23:28] <SpeedEvil> Today I was working for White Power!
[23:28] <SpeedEvil> My windowframes had gone yellow..
[23:28] Action: SpeedEvil haz gloss.
[23:28] <Laurenceb> oh, painted?
[23:29] <SpeedEvil> And looking closely at them - they _really_ need redone.
[23:31] <Laurenceb> wooden?
[23:32] <SpeedEvil> yes
[23:32] <Laurenceb> single glazed? in scotland ?!?
[23:32] <SpeedEvil> looking at prolly getting someone with a profiler to run me off a hundred metres.
[23:32] <SpeedEvil> Hahahahahahahahahah.
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> Alas, that's not the problem.
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> The total lack of insulation under the floor and on the walls is.
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> The windows are _minor_
[23:33] <Laurenceb> you could add perspex inside
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> The frames are fundamentally largely rotten in many cases.
[23:34] <SpeedEvil> And I'm going to be ripping out round the frames anyway - to insulate the 50cm thick window wells - so it's an ideal time to replace.
[23:34] <SpeedEvil> Sealed units are about a grand and a bit :/
[23:34] <SpeedEvil> Wood works out to maybe half to two-thirds.
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> I haven't priced window furniture
[23:35] <Laurenceb> you could use wooden window frames with sealed units
[23:35] <Laurenceb> that actually works really well as wood is a good insulator
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> yes - that's what I'm planning on.
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> I'm trying to resist being silly.
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> And making my own sealed units.
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> With carbon fibre structural spacers.
[23:37] <Laurenceb> heh
[23:37] <Laurenceb> well its only aluminium with adhesive usually
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> yeah, I know.
[23:38] <Laurenceb> the fill is a bit tricky
[23:38] <Laurenceb> usually argon IIRC
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> butane should work fine.
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> What could possibly go wrong.
[23:39] <Laurenceb> lol
[23:39] <Laurenceb> condenses in really cold weather?
[23:39] <SpeedEvil> Though I have wondered WTF is wrong with CO2
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> A bit heavier than argon even
[23:40] <Laurenceb> yeah... odd
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> CO2+damp+Al
[23:41] <Laurenceb> oh ok
[23:41] <Laurenceb> not a problem with CF
[23:41] <SpeedEvil> I'm not saying making them is a problem - it's just that at some point, I run out of time.
[23:42] <Laurenceb> its easy
[23:42] <Laurenceb> hardest part is cleaning the glass properly
[23:42] <Laurenceb> cutting glass is easy
[23:42] <SpeedEvil> Do I ignore building regs...
[23:42] <Laurenceb> tho you ideally want some with low emissivity coating
[23:42] <SpeedEvil> Yeah
[23:42] <Laurenceb> most people ignore building regs
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> Ideally I'd like toughened in some of the windows
[23:43] <Laurenceb> - doing small jobs
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> but, practically...
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> Cutting glass isn't the hard part
[23:43] <Laurenceb> not much else to it apart from cleaning
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> It's the whole infrastructure I'd have to build to get to the point I can go from 8*4 sheets of glass to finished units
[23:43] <Laurenceb> which is kind of important
[23:44] <SpeedEvil> composite, clamps, cutting tables, ...
[23:44] <Laurenceb> a table, saw, CO2 cylinder.....
[23:44] <Laurenceb> not a lot if your planning on some DIY
[23:44] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[23:44] <Laurenceb> two holes
[23:44] <Laurenceb> inject CO2 through one
[23:45] <SpeedEvil> and can even set it up to be able to regass
[23:45] <Laurenceb> plug with the mastic
[23:45] <Laurenceb> hey that would be really useful
[23:45] <SpeedEvil> easily
[23:45] <Laurenceb> in square CF tube section easily avaliable?
[23:45] <SpeedEvil> Dunno.
[23:46] <SpeedEvil> That would make it almost simple.
[23:46] <Laurenceb> I've used Dow Corning mastic to fix glass to rubber before
[23:46] <Laurenceb> still stick fine a couple of years later
[23:46] <SpeedEvil> Large section CF tube, with wood veneer more or less around the edges.
[23:46] <SpeedEvil> Uber-stiff.
[23:46] <Laurenceb> its a bit conductive
[23:47] <Laurenceb> I was thinking just for making the sealed units
[23:47] <Laurenceb> then a wooden frame
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> And the Al frames aren't ? :)
[23:47] <Laurenceb> well its usually upvc
[23:48] <Laurenceb> but the Al+veneer ones are so much nicer to look at
[23:48] <Laurenceb> but more expensive
[23:48] <SpeedEvil> I mean the Al frame inside the DG panel
[23:48] <Laurenceb> black CF vrs shiny aluminium at the edges of the panes would look a lot nicer too
[23:48] <SpeedEvil> Actually not
[23:49] <SpeedEvil> I got some quotes for some quite nice windows at 5K or so
[23:49] <Laurenceb> most reasonably cheap small windows are pure upvc
[23:49] <SpeedEvil> Including nice profiles
[23:49] <SpeedEvil> Anglia came in at 15K!
[23:50] <Laurenceb> eww double glazing salesmen
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - well - it was a possibility that the council would have paid.
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> But funding got cut for that program.
[23:51] <SpeedEvil> Have you come across cheap CF sheet anywhere?
[23:51] <SpeedEvil> (reltively cheap)
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> I mean formed
[23:53] <Laurenceb> fraid not
[23:53] <Laurenceb> seems easier to buy tube
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[23:54] <Laurenceb> http://www.carbonology.com/carbon-fibre-sheet-02mm-0008-thickness-c-2_49.html
[23:55] <Laurenceb> its T300 apparently
[23:56] <Laurenceb> http://www.performance-composites.com/carbonfibre/structuralprofile.asp
[23:56] <Laurenceb> I beam may be useful for glazing
[23:58] <SpeedEvil> I need to run some numbers on using fibreglass + the glass as structure.
[00:00] --- Fri Jul 3 2009