highaltitude.log.20090623

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[00:46] <Laurenceb> http://media.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/photos/images/june09/solstice_sm/solstice06.jpg
[00:47] <Laurenceb> hes just chilling with his mates it seems
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[15:58] <Laurenceb> hi
[16:04] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
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[16:33] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: ping
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> pong
[16:38] <Laurenceb> hi there
[16:38] <Laurenceb> I think I've got a design for opressurization
[16:39] <Laurenceb> run a few loops of tin walled caopper around the inside of the chamber, put a catalyst in and pump ammonia round
[16:39] <Laurenceb> you get about 99% breakdown into hydrogen and nitrogen
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> hmm.
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> At what temp?
[16:39] <Laurenceb> 400 to 500C
[16:41] <Laurenceb> its crazily lightweight, overall about 1/3rd the mass of the best CF overwrapped cylinder and Helium
[16:41] Action: SpeedEvil tries to remember what the molar volume of mixed gasses is.
[16:41] <Laurenceb> and easiler and cheaper
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> Is it simply the superposition of the two gasses?
[16:41] <Laurenceb> yes
[16:41] <Laurenceb> simple average
[16:42] <Laurenceb> works out just over twice as dense as helium
[16:42] <SpeedEvil> You are remembering the He / H2/N2 thing?
[16:42] <Laurenceb> but you save the heavy expensive cylinder and valves
[16:42] <Laurenceb> what?
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> H2/N2, not H1 N1
[16:43] <Laurenceb> sure
[16:44] <Laurenceb> 2.1 times as dense
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> I think thinwall copper tubing in a chamber which is filled with peroxide drops at least potentially - is a bad idea
[16:46] <Laurenceb> http://www.micropumps.co.uk/TCSM100range.htm <- would work
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> thinwall stainless?
[16:46] <Laurenceb> hmm yeah, maybe something else
[16:46] <Laurenceb> the thermal conductivity opf the tube isnt the limiting factor?
[16:47] <SpeedEvil> I wouldn't have thought so
[16:47] <Laurenceb> actually I havent worked out the energy flow into the tube yet
[16:47] <Laurenceb> the problem with copper is you may have to pump a set amount to stop it melting
[16:47] <SpeedEvil> once you get to thinwall anything - it's pretty much high
[16:47] <Laurenceb> that'll limit your control input
[16:48] <Laurenceb> a couple of mm diameter, 0.33mm wall looks easy to get
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> you need a dump-regulator of some form
[16:48] <Laurenceb> whats that?
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> to throw excess output overboard
[16:48] <Laurenceb> eww no
[16:49] <Laurenceb> I waas tihnking pwm the pump and have a pressure sensor
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> once it's gone into the tube, you can't call it bacck
[16:49] <Laurenceb> sure, but its out in gas fowm is a few tens on ms
[16:49] <Laurenceb> and your not doing fast throttling
[16:49] <Laurenceb> just thrust curve
[16:50] Action: SpeedEvil ponders lawnmower maximum blade radius.
[16:50] <Laurenceb> ?
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> I thought you were differential throttling.
[16:50] Action: SpeedEvil is dissasembling lawnmower to untangle.
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> And found that the blade is very, very blunt.
[16:50] <Laurenceb> nope, this would be for vertically stacked stages
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> ah
[16:50] <Laurenceb> angle grinder on it
[16:51] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[16:51] <SpeedEvil> though bench
[16:51] <Laurenceb> you could have a tank on ammonia at the top of the ullage space
[16:52] <Laurenceb> itd pressurise the propellant for ignition as well
[16:53] <Laurenceb> if you designed things just right you may be able to burn a lot of the hydrogen./nitrogen mix at burnout
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[16:55] <SpeedEvil> I assume H2O2/ammonia sucks?
[16:55] <Laurenceb> not necessarily
[16:56] <Laurenceb> actully probably better than kerosene
[16:57] <Laurenceb> nitrogen/steam exhaust
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[16:57] <Laurenceb> not steam/carbo dioxide
[16:57] <SpeedEvil> N2 >>H2O though
[16:57] <Laurenceb> nitrogen is lower molar mass than carbon dioxide
[16:57] <SpeedEvil> true
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> doesn't burn as well though
[16:58] <Laurenceb> catalytic compostion
[16:59] <Laurenceb> may work well for a "space tug" restartable upper stage
[17:03] <Laurenceb> two stage catalyst
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> ammonia has a positive heat of decomposition?
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> of course
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> that's why you can't just burn nitrogen
[17:09] <Laurenceb> cant find any data on isp unfortunately
[17:10] <Laurenceb> could be hard to stop the engine melting
[17:13] <Laurenceb> apparently uranium makes a good catalyst
[17:13] Action: Laurenceb ponders uranium electroplating
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[17:25] <Laurenceb> yeah ammonia should have a considerably higher ISP than kerosene, about twice the energy realsed per product molecukle, and the exhaust has 15% lower density
[17:39] <Fighter|busy> Morse code works anyway :D
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[17:57] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: looks like it only needs about one loop of thinwall copper tube about the combustion chamber
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[18:27] <Fighter|busy> jcoxon :D
[18:27] <Fighter|busy> Morse works :)
[18:28] <jcoxon> ooo good work
[18:28] <jcoxon> easy?
[18:29] <Fighter|busy> not too bad
[18:29] <Fighter|busy> Still haven't got a peak quite as clear as yours, so I'm worried about the long range reliability
[18:30] <jcoxon> oh that wasn't my peak
[18:31] <jcoxon> i found it on google images
[18:31] <Fighter|busy> Ah I see
[18:31] <jcoxon> actually your peak will sharpen when you put a bit of distance between the transmitter and recevier
[18:31] <jcoxon> have a go
[18:31] <Fighter|busy> They are all wired into the same plug, so I can't :(
[18:31] <jcoxon> ain't got that 9v battery?
[18:31] <Fighter|busy> Ah yes I have actually
[18:31] <jcoxon> connect to your arduino
[18:32] <Fighter|busy> The arduino also powers the yaesu though :p
[18:32] <jcoxon> wow no JS for hte next week
[18:32] <jcoxon> Fighter|busy, what?
[18:32] <Fighter|busy> I'm using the arduino to swap the polarity on the plug
[18:32] <Fighter|busy> Polarity on the plug is correct for the arduino but not for the yaesu
[18:33] <Fighter|busy> So I just have the yaesu wired into vin and gnd
[18:33] <jcoxon> oh right
[18:33] <jcoxon> sounds a bit hacky :-)
[18:33] <Fighter|busy> Yah, best I could do without buying another plug :p
[18:33] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, ping
[18:34] <jcoxon> Fighter|busy, might be worth in hte long run getting a new plug, isn't worth breaking the radio
[18:34] <Fighter|busy> You think the voltage might break the radio, or plugging it in wrong?
[18:36] <jcoxon> its worth making something more permenant
[18:36] <jcoxon> you don't want to knock something
[18:36] <Fighter|busy> I suppose, do you have the link to the one you have again?
[18:36] <jcoxon> the yaesu is quite an old beast
[18:36] <jcoxon> ummmm it was maplin
[18:37] <jcoxon> looking for a 12v supply
[18:37] <Laurenceb> eww maplin
[18:37] <jcoxon> haha Laurenceb you love maplins
[18:37] <Laurenceb> overpriced trash :P
[18:37] <jcoxon> i know you've been recently
[18:37] <Fighter|busy> http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=32754 ?
[18:37] <jcoxon> Fighter|busy, yeah thats the one i linked
[18:38] <Fighter|busy> Polarity: Centre Positive
[18:38] <Fighter|busy> Isn't that standard though?
[18:38] <jcoxon> yes
[18:38] <jcoxon> ummm i was relying on the fact that actually there are interchangable plugs
[18:38] <jcoxon> usually they have 2 identical pins so you can just swap them round and hterefore reverse the polarity of the centre
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[18:39] <Fighter|busy> I see, have you used that one before?
[18:39] <jcoxon> i've got an older version i think
[18:40] <jcoxon> recommend you research it a little
[18:40] <Fighter|busy> ok, this works for now anyway
[18:40] <jcoxon> fair enough
[18:41] <jcoxon> did you write the morse code yourself? or did you find it?
[18:41] <Fighter|busy> I wrote it myself in terms of writing the dot() and dash() functions
[18:42] <Fighter|busy> then I borrowed a lookup table for morse and did find and replace to put my functions into it
[18:42] <jcoxon> cool
[18:42] <jcoxon> using a potential divider to reduce the voltage from the arduino to the tx pin?
[18:42] <Laurenceb> cya
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[18:42] <Fighter|busy> Yup, same one we used yesterday
[18:45] <Fighter|busy> How much are transfer rates improved with RTTY?
[18:46] <jcoxon> we've found that rtty decodes a lot better and is quicker
[18:46] <Fighter|busy> Right, so it is worth trying to aim for that then
[18:47] <jcoxon> yes, we recommend rtty in general
[18:50] <Fighter|busy> It's almost like the radio is transmitting three seperate peaks, but with the same data
[18:51] <jcoxon> the 2 outside are a bit less?
[18:51] <Fighter|busy> A little, but not massively
[18:51] <jcoxon> sounds about right
[18:52] <jcoxon> i'd be interested to see what happens if you put a bit of distance between the tx and rx
[18:52] <jcoxon> have you got an antenna on the tx?
[18:52] <Fighter|busy> Short piece of wire
[18:52] <jcoxon> soldered on?
[18:53] <Fighter|busy> Nope, breadboard
[18:53] <jcoxon> take it off
[18:53] <jcoxon> and see what happens
[18:53] <Fighter|busy> Not much, peaks are about the same :s
[18:54] <Fighter|busy> Anyway, I'm off for some dinner. Thanks again for all your help. I'll be back in about 30 minutes
[18:54] <jcoxon> i won't be on
[18:54] <jcoxon> have fun, keep experiementing :-)
[18:54] <Fighter|busy> ok, no problem. Thanks :)
[18:54] <jcoxon> bbl
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[19:04] <SpeedEvil> Fighter|dinner: have you measured the voltage of the power supply with the reciever on?
[19:04] <SpeedEvil> Fighter|dinner: also - do you have an old PC PSU?
[19:38] Nick change: Fighter|dinner -> Fighter1405
[19:38] <Fighter1405> SpeedEvil: No I haven't measured the voltage, should I?
[19:39] <Fighter1405> SpeedEvil: Yes I do, somewhere in an old PC
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[21:01] <fnoble> edmoore: helooo
[21:02] <edmoore> there you are
[21:02] <edmoore> firstly, have you got my email
[21:02] <fnoble> sorry, an amusing thing just happened to by laptop
[21:02] <edmoore> uhuh?
[21:03] <fnoble> it now sports a sleek cut down user interface consisting on only a single hyphen in the upper left corner of the screen
[21:03] <fnoble> there is no other functionality
[21:03] <edmoore> oh awesome
[21:03] <fnoble> yeah its a bit distressing
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[21:04] <fnoble> anyhoo, what did you say in your email, or shall i open up hermes?
[21:04] <edmoore> you should check
[21:04] <edmoore> tis arrangements for vorticity tomorrow
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[21:09] <fnoble> edmoore: goddamn lapwing
[21:09] <edmoore> blimey
[21:09] <edmoore> you really are bumming it
[21:09] <fnoble> everything is going wrong at the moment
[21:10] <fnoble> im reduced to my eee and an internet connection that drops every 5 mins
[21:10] <fnoble> so, whats the deal?
[21:11] <edmoore> 6.30am in IFM carpark
[21:11] <edmoore> so we can be in oxford for a 10am meeting
[21:11] <edmoore> we're taking about the must traffic-jam-potential route in all of england
[21:11] <edmoore> most*
[21:11] <edmoore> so am giving it some buffer time
[21:12] <fnoble> yeah thats a bad time to have to go
[21:13] <edmoore> you can sleep in the back though, no probs
[21:13] <fnoble> yup
[21:13] <edmoore> john also wants to do some droptests in chu on friday
[21:13] <fnoble> cool
[21:13] <edmoore> from about 60+m
[21:13] <edmoore> I suggest we can build and test a bunch of explosive cutdowns for the drop test
[21:14] <fnoble> oh dear ed this looks bad
[21:14] <edmoore> in what way?
[21:14] <fnoble> looking like an actual hdd failure
[21:14] <edmoore> oh sugar
[21:14] <edmoore> are you backed up?
[21:14] <fnoble> my precious data
[21:14] <fnoble> of course not
[21:14] <fnoble> :(
[21:15] <edmoore> better now than 3 weeks ago
[21:15] <fnoble> true
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[21:16] <fnoble> i dont think i have anything on there which i absolutely cant afford to loose
[21:16] <fnoble> just a royal pita
[21:16] <edmoore> yeah def
[21:17] <fnoble> pushing me closer to upgrading to the real thing
[21:18] <fnoble> so, want to play with the gumstix?
[21:20] <edmoore> are you cool with 2morrow, firstofall?
[21:20] <fnoble> yeah, ill get myself out of bed somehow
[21:20] <edmoore> ok
[21:21] <fnoble> whom is coming?
[21:21] <edmoore> well re: gumstix, am hesitant as i want a fairly early night for tomorrows shitty slog across england at early o'clock
[21:21] <edmoore> you know what i'm like without sleep
[21:22] <fnoble> ok, fairy nuff
[21:22] <fnoble> actually we could just go for a pint
[21:22] <edmoore> you can do stuff with eee in the car
[21:23] <edmoore> do you want to come to chu? I ask because the MCR is west facing and super mega lovely at this time in the evening
[21:23] <edmoore> and I'm MCR now
[21:23] <fnoble> hehe, yeah ill come to you, give me 20mins or so
[21:23] <fnoble> how do i find the mcr?
[21:24] <edmoore> i'll be in normal bar
[21:24] <edmoore> re-iteration though of my intentions for fairly early night
[21:25] <fnoble> early night < 11pm?
[21:25] <fnoble> thats fine by me happy to just get out of henry's bedroom for a bit
[21:26] <fnoble> see you in a sec
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[22:19] <SpeedEvil> Who's on yodas right - holding a sink plunger
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> oops
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[22:23] <natrium42> lol?
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> http://englishrussia.com/images/daily_22/1big.jpg
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> discussion in other channel
[22:25] <natrium42> hehe, ER rulz
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> I don't recognise the woman Lisa is bottling.
[22:27] <natrium42> SpeedEvil, it's Moidodyr
[22:27] <natrium42> i think
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[22:27] <Laurenceb> hi
[22:27] <natrium42> yeah, it is
[22:27] Nick change: Fighter1405 -> Fighter|sleep
[22:28] <natrium42> hello Laurenceb http://hackaday.com/2009/06/23/wii-motionplus-arduino/
[22:28] Action: Laurenceb dies
[22:28] <natrium42> XD
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[23:03] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: http://marinetraffic.com/ais/ Boats! - they''re everywhere!
[23:05] <Laurenceb> nice
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[23:14] <KingJ> That is very cool
[23:38] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: I've got a design working using two stages
[23:39] <Laurenceb> GLOW 35KG, with hydrogen peroxide, kerosene first stage, then a spin stabilised solid second using an off the shelf propellant charge
[23:40] <Laurenceb> but, needs to launch from 30Km
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> neat
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> umm
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> how do you get circular?
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> and payload?
[23:48] <Laurenceb> payload is ~20 grams :P
[23:48] <Laurenceb> maybe you could get up to 100grams
[23:49] <Laurenceb> you cant get circular, unless you want 220km circular
[23:49] <Laurenceb> have to live with elliptical
[23:49] <SpeedEvil> Or is it a really slow burning second
[23:49] <Laurenceb> cant see any avaliable
[23:49] <Laurenceb> so its got about 6 seconds burntine
[23:50] <Laurenceb> fire up in a gravity turn, then shoot the second stage at apogee
[23:51] <Laurenceb> it needs to have ammonia pressurization to work
[23:51] <SpeedEvil> ah
[23:51] <Laurenceb> it looks to be possible with one turn of 2mm stainless thinwall tube
[23:52] <Laurenceb> if catylist can be aranged
[23:53] <Laurenceb> catalyst geometery is also an issue
[23:54] <Laurenceb> it thats the valid term
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> packing may be the proper term
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure
[23:58] <Laurenceb> ber process catalyst is good, but hard to make
[23:58] <Laurenceb> maybe pack with a water based paste, then sinter in a hydrogen atmosphere
[23:59] <SpeedEvil> ber?
[23:59] <Laurenceb> haber process
[00:00] --- Wed Jun 24 2009