highaltitude.log.20090622

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[02:20] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
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[06:32] <Laurenceb> anyone here familiar with wine?
[06:32] <Laurenceb> or dosbox?
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[09:10] <Laurenceb> hi
[09:34] <Laurenceb> http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA367246&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
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[11:52] <mc-> Laurenceb
[11:55] <Laurenceb> hi
[11:56] <Laurenceb> mc_
[11:59] <mc-> 99?
[12:00] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
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[18:05] <edmoore> booooooo
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[18:07] <Laurenceb> hi
[18:09] <Fighter1405> Hey
[18:09] <Fighter1405> Looks like this assumes a 3v3 supply? So I'd need to correct the resistor values for a 5v supply? http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/ideas:notes
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[18:23] <SpeedEvil> yes, to give the same frequency shift
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> looks like it always tries to keep the voltages opposite
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> so approximately 22k, and 26k voltage divider
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> If you're running from 5V, then to get the same shift - centred around 2.5V - not 1.65V - you will want to decrease the difference in resistors by a factor of 5/3.3
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> 22K, in series with a 2.4K resistor will be about right
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> Or even one 24k
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> you might also use 2*22k resistors, and one 4k7 pot
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> at least to work out the value you need
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[18:36] <Fighter1405> ok, thanks. I just tried wiring it up and I don't think I got any output :(
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[18:45] <SpeedEvil> you should - if you have it enabled - get something.
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> Sure supply voltage to the transmitter is the right voltage to teh right pins?
[18:49] <Fighter1405> Had it wired wrong :x Getting something through now :d
[19:47] <Fighter1405> my radio is generating the tones ok by the sound of it, and I have it plugged into my laptop with fldigi, what set up do I need to do on there?
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[19:49] <SpeedEvil> do you see a waterfall graph, or a spectrum?
[19:50] <Fighter1405> Mostly blue with the odd yellow line
[19:50] <Fighter1405> And it is decoding to give several random letters
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> ok - you need to set it up for rtty, with the right spacing, and then 50bps
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> and 8 bits I think
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> are you sending data?
[19:51] <Fighter1405> yes
[19:51] <Fighter1405> Just hello world
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> ok - on hte waterfall display - are there two narrow yellow lines at the bottom?
[19:51] <Fighter1405> where is the bottom?
[19:51] <Fighter1405> more yellow to the left than right
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> under teh waterfall
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[19:52] <SpeedEvil> narrow line - not actual signal lines
[19:52] <Fighter1405> not that I can see
[19:52] Action: SpeedEvil has used fldigi very little.
[19:53] Action: Fighter1405 just opened it for the first time 10 seconds ago :(
[19:53] <SpeedEvil> Firstlyy - if you turn the radio on or off, does the yellow line on the waterfall go away - you may need to scroll left or right to see it.
[19:53] <SpeedEvil> you should see two lines 400Hz apart
[19:53] <SpeedEvil> or so
[19:53] <Fighter1405> the graph vanishes when I turn the radio off
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> I mean the sending radio
[19:54] <Fighter1405> oh
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[19:54] <Fighter1405> yeah it goes all blue
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[19:55] <SpeedEvil> and does it sound like a sort of warbling whistle/hum?
[19:55] <Fighter1405> Kind of, more like an old modem
[19:55] <SpeedEvil> ok - that sounds likely.
[19:55] <Fighter1405> What mode should the transciever be on?
[19:56] <SpeedEvil> usb or lsb - depending on the polarity of the transmitter
[19:56] <Fighter1405> How do I tell which? :s
[19:56] <SpeedEvil> try both
[19:56] <Fighter1405> they both sound reasonably similar
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> they will - one has the signal the wrong way round, so it won't decode
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> have you set up fldigi for rtty/8 bit, 50bps?
[19:57] <Fighter1405> Yup
[19:57] <Fighter1405> Not sure I got the shift frequency right though
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> click the cursor in the waterfall window
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> do you see two lines appearing?
[19:58] <Fighter1405> yes
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> selection bars
[19:58] <Fighter1405> ok
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> ok - this is the spacing that fldigi is expecting
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> each line should be oover one peak of the signal
[19:59] <Fighter1405> Right, does which peak matter?
[19:59] <SpeedEvil> one over each
[20:00] <SpeedEvil> ideally - if you can't do that, then the frequency shift is wrong
[20:00] <Fighter1405> there aren't just two peaks :s
[20:00] <SpeedEvil> Ok - you may possibly be overloading the reciever
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> does it have a 'local' switch or other means of setting up for very strong signals?
[20:01] <Fighter1405> uhm, I can't see any
[20:01] <Fighter1405> Then again I have no clue what most of these buttons do xD
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> manuals can be handy for this :)
[20:02] <Fighter1405> hang on
[20:02] <Fighter1405> Just screenshotting what I can see
[20:02] <SpeedEvil> probbly a good plan
[20:03] <Fighter1405> http://yfrog.com/18screennyjj
[20:04] <SpeedEvil> Ok - you have some sort of massive interference going on.
[20:05] <SpeedEvil> how are you decoupling this?
[20:05] <Fighter1405> decoupling?
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[20:06] <SpeedEvil> decoupling is using small capacitors, placed close to sources of noise, or places vulnerable to noise, on the supply rails, to make the supply locally stiff.
[20:06] <SpeedEvil> Think of it like...
[20:06] <Fighter1405> In that case, I'm not
[20:06] Action: SpeedEvil suffers analogy failure.
[20:06] <SpeedEvil> Try a .1uF cap or so across the radiometrix supply pins, as a start.
[20:07] <Fighter1405> ok, hang on. Gotta dig out my caps
[20:07] <SpeedEvil> you're building this on breadboard too?
[20:07] <Fighter1405> yes
[20:08] <SpeedEvil> Several possible issues.
[20:08] <SpeedEvil> Your power supply is noisy - what is it?
[20:08] <Fighter1405> from an arduino
[20:08] <Fighter1405> 5v dc
[20:08] <Fighter1405> 0.1uf is 100nf right?
[20:09] <SpeedEvil> yes
[20:09] <Fighter1405> ok, got them then
[20:09] <SpeedEvil> anyhtting in the .1-10uF range may help
[20:09] <Fighter1405> between the gnd and vcc pins?
[20:09] <SpeedEvil> yes
[20:11] <Fighter1405> Added, doesn't look much different :(
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> try disconnecting the radiometrix input, and connecting it to ground
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> you should then - ideally - get one strong signal
[20:13] <SpeedEvil> and stopping the arduino executing code somehow
[20:13] <SpeedEvil> so it's not disturbing the power supply
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[20:13] <Fighter1405> At the moment with the arduino going it is even more fuzzy
[20:13] <Fighter1405> solid fuzzy yellow
[20:13] <SpeedEvil> http://www.w1hkj.com/FldigiHelp/Modes/rtty.htm
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> you should get something like that on the waterfall, and sound
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> (need to click to hear the sound)
[20:14] <Fighter1405> nope, nothing like that
[20:14] <Fighter1405> the whole thing is a fuzzy yellow
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> don't suppose you've got a scope?
[20:15] <Fighter1405> nope :(
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> They are really handy.
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> But I expect you knew that :)
[20:16] <Fighter1405> Yes, and also really expensive
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> Well - yes and no.
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> Yes, you can spend as much as a house on them.
[20:17] <SpeedEvil> what's your zipcode?
[20:17] <Fighter1405> postcode, UK
[20:17] <SpeedEvil> oh
[20:17] Action: SpeedEvil fails.
[20:17] <Fighter1405> Worth trying the cap as a 10uf one?
[20:17] <SpeedEvil> somehow I misread your whois
[20:17] <SpeedEvil> yes
[20:17] <Fighter1405> right
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> where are you?
[20:18] <Fighter1405> near potters bar
[20:18] <Fighter1405> herts
[20:19] <SpeedEvil> ebay can be a good source
[20:19] <SpeedEvil> search for 'pickup only' scopes near you
[20:19] <Fighter1405> hmm ok
[20:19] <Fighter1405> I might be able to get access to one if need be
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[20:20] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/oscilloscope-20mhz-dual-beam-portable-leads-HAMEG_W0QQitemZ270412145477QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET?hash=item3ef5d1e345&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A7|66%3A2|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50
[20:20] <SpeedEvil> for example
[20:20] <Fighter1405> 10uf makes it slightly cleaner, but still nothing like your screenshot
[20:21] <Fighter1405> hmm ok, I'll look out
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> Even utterly basic http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Telequipment-Oscilloscope-S51B_W0QQitemZ120436672267QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET?hash=item1c0a95c70b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A7|66%3A2|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50 stuff like this is a quantum leap from no scope.
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/digital-storage-oscilloscope-with-panels-p-167.html
[20:22] <Fighter1405> Got it
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[20:22] <SpeedEvil> then thtere is this for the cheapest 'bought' scope
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[20:23] <SpeedEvil> new I mean
[20:23] <Fighter1405> If I hold the capacitor it goes a lot cleaner on fldigi, why would that be?
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> Because RF shit is wierd!
[20:24] <Fighter1405> Gah
[20:24] <Fighter1405> I hoped because I had the modem noises I had it all sorted :(
[20:24] <SpeedEvil> Breadboard has real problems as a construction material where RF is involved too.
[20:24] <SpeedEvil> You have 10pF capacitance between each adjacent row, and a fair amount of inductance
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> not to mention resistance that varies from 'usually not a problem' to totally disconnected - especially as your breadboard gets a bit older
[20:26] <Fighter1405> *sigh*
[20:26] <Fighter1405> Anything else I can try?
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[20:27] <SpeedEvil> Do you have a 7805?
[20:27] <Fighter1405> Unlikely, what is it?
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> regulator chip
[20:27] <Fighter1405> Very unlikely then, I just have a few standard chips like 555s
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> Alternatively, what is the radiometrix voltage range?
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> 7805 is utterly standard
[20:28] <Fighter1405> 2.9 - 15V DC power supply
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> Ok - get a 9V battery, connect to the breadboard instead of the arduino power supply
[20:28] <Fighter1405> ok
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> connect the 'in' pin to ground
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> now, see if you have a nice single tone - you might of course need to retune a bit
[20:29] <Fighter1405> clearer
[20:29] <Fighter1405> What do you mean by retune?
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[20:30] <SpeedEvil> the radio may need retuned, as the frequency the transmitter is operating 0on ahas ecceeeded its range
[20:30] <Fighter1405> Uhh, I'm lost. Sorry
[20:31] <Fighter1405> You mean retune the frequency on the transciever?
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> yes
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> sorry - ambiguous.
[20:31] <Fighter1405> What could it be at other than the frequency in the radio spec?
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> the radio - I think - is specced to a 15KHz modulation range isn't it?
[20:32] <SpeedEvil> sorry
[20:32] <SpeedEvil> the transmitter
[20:32] <Fighter1405> Couldn't say, I'll check the spec
[20:32] <SpeedEvil> anyway - doesn't matter - do you recieve it with teh 9V battery only in the circuit, and the artuino disconnected totally
[20:33] <Fighter1405> Modulation bandwidth @ -3dB
[20:33] <Fighter1405>
[20:33] <Fighter1405> 0
[20:33] <Fighter1405>
[20:33] <Fighter1405> -
[20:33] <Fighter1405>
[20:33] <Fighter1405> 5
[20:33] <Fighter1405>
[20:33] <Fighter1405> kHz
[20:33] <Fighter1405> I get a series of yellow lines
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> with the arduino totally disconnected - the breadboard with just the 9V and radiometrix?
[20:34] <Fighter1405> the arduino is only powering the transciever now
[20:34] <Fighter1405> not the transmitter
[20:34] <Fighter1405> the radiometrix is only connected to the 9v battery
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> the arduino is powering the tranciever?
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> how?
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> what tranciever is this?
[20:35] <Fighter1405> Uhm, the dc plug I had was the wrong polarisation for the transciever, so I'm just using the arduino to switch the polarisation
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> ah.
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> Firstly, I'd chop the DC plug off, and plug it in direct
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> after swapping the polarity
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> the arduino may be causing noise on the supply
[20:36] <Fighter1405> then I have no power supply for the arduino :(
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> oh - right.
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> worst case, a USB 'charger' may work - verify the voltage though
[20:37] <Fighter1405> The usb cable does power the arduino
[20:37] <SpeedEvil> the tranciever wants 5V?
[20:37] <Fighter1405> It has 9v at the moment
[20:37] <Fighter1405> I'm told ideally it wants 12v, but 9v should work fine
[20:38] <SpeedEvil> ah
[20:40] <SpeedEvil> sorry - afk
[20:40] <Fighter1405> ok, cya
[20:40] <Fighter1405> sbasuita ?
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> Fighter1405: can you recieve other broadcasts well?
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> without noise?
[20:47] <Fighter1405> I don't have an antenna to try it with sadly
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> you can make an antenna really simply - do you ahve any coax, and the appropriate plug?
[20:50] <Fighter1405> no and no :(
[20:51] <Fighter1405> And the speaker on the transciever seems to have stopped doing anything
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> afk again
[20:51] <Fighter1405> cya again
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[21:30] Action: Laurenceb has a cunning plan
[21:31] <Laurenceb> for ullage space pressurisation in rockets
[21:31] <Laurenceb> mixture of 90% ammonia with HTP, pass through a catalyst, the HTP breaks down and the high temperature + catalyst breaks down the ammonia to nitrogen and hydrogen
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[21:35] <Laurenceb> overall gas mix is about 3 times denser than helium
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[21:38] <SpeedEvil> I'd want to make damn suure that that's not energetically favourable in the tank
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> and don'y you get a healthy slice of water too?
[21:38] <Laurenceb> heh
[21:39] <Laurenceb> yeah
[21:39] <Laurenceb> well the HTP decomposes, heating the ammonia
[21:39] <Laurenceb> ammonia decomposes
[21:39] <Laurenceb> some of the hydrogen burns with the oxygen
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> In fact, won't all of the hydrogen burn with the oxygen/
[21:39] <Laurenceb> generating more heat...
[21:39] <Laurenceb> nope
[21:39] <Laurenceb> you have a very ammonia rich mix
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> oh - you have an excess of ammonia gas
[21:40] <Laurenceb> ~95% ammonia
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> Umm. Inthat case is there actually enough eenrgy to drive that reaction
[21:40] <Laurenceb> you mix it so there is
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> is it really 95%?
[21:41] <Laurenceb> hmm I need to look at the numbers a bit more
[21:41] Action: SpeedEvil can't remember the respective bond energies.
[21:42] <Laurenceb> yeah I can find them
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> I'd have thoght you'd get lots of HNO3
[21:45] <Laurenceb> you can just vaporise the ammonia
[21:45] <Laurenceb> that works ok, but decomposing it would be groovy
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[22:01] <jcoxon> evening all
[22:02] <jcoxon> just watched the bbc program about the apollo landings and U2 spy plane
[22:02] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
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[22:03] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[22:05] sbasuita (n=sbasuita@unaffiliated/drebellion) joined #highaltitude.
[22:09] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: 17% HTP
[22:16] <Laurenceb> * 9% even
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[22:25] <Laurenceb> hmm I think its going to form a crazy chemical soup of all sorts of nitrogen + hydrogen + oxygen compounds
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[22:29] <Fighter|brb> SpeedEvil is it possible the noise is generated by misconfigured software? When I listen to the sound on the speakers it sounds very clean
[22:29] <jcoxon> hi Fighter|brb
[22:29] <Fighter|brb> Hey jcoxon
[22:29] Nick change: Fighter|brb -> Fighter1405
[22:30] <Fighter1405> Trying to get fldigi to decode properly
[22:30] <jcoxon> what sort of progress have you made?
[22:30] <Fighter1405> The ntx2 is transmitting, and I can hear a modem kind of sound when I listen through the yaesu
[22:30] <jcoxon> good good
[22:30] <jcoxon> what code are you using?
[22:31] <Fighter1405> however when I connect it to my laptop it spouts out rubbish
[22:31] <Fighter1405> Trying to base it on this: http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/ideas:notes
[22:31] <jcoxon> oh okay
[22:31] <jcoxon> mine then :-)
[22:31] <Fighter1405> Ah yeah, forgot that :)
[22:31] <Fighter1405> That's a useful page, thanks :p
[22:31] <jcoxon> okay, couple of questions
[22:32] <jcoxon> did you follow the resistors plan?
[22:32] <Fighter1405> Nope, not quite. As close as I could
[22:32] <Fighter1405> Mine is 10k-10k-2k2
[22:32] <jcoxon> okay so on fldigi you you see 2 peaks?
[22:32] <Fighter1405> Then 10k-10k-2k2-2k2-2k2
[22:33] <Fighter1405> Not really, that's the problem - there are several shaded bars in yellow but they aren't at all clear
[22:33] <jcoxon> okay here is a little trick
[22:33] <jcoxon> in the bottom left corner there is a button that says WF
[22:33] <jcoxon> click it
[22:33] <Fighter1405> yup
[22:34] <Fighter1405> get a wavy graph thing
[22:34] <jcoxon> great
[22:34] <jcoxon> any obvious peaks?
[22:34] <Fighter1405> Not really, gradually slopes down to the right
[22:34] <Fighter1405> top left is the highest
[22:34] <jcoxon> okay you need to tune the radio then
[22:35] <Fighter1405> Just fiddle with it?
[22:35] <jcoxon> basically with the radio while you might be able to hear something you might not have it in the middle of the filters
[22:35] <jcoxon> yes
[22:35] <jcoxon> turn the big dial up and down
[22:35] <jcoxon> and look for a peak
[22:35] <jcoxon> you'll know it when you see it
[22:36] <Fighter1405> It pretty much flatlines except for at 4.075
[22:36] <jcoxon> whats at 4.075?
[22:36] <jcoxon> (oh what setting do you have? usb or lsb?
[22:36] <jcoxon> )
[22:36] <Fighter1405> http://yfrog.com/0pscreennqhj
[22:37] <jcoxon> okay
[22:37] <Fighter1405> Actually, it had gone back to FM
[22:37] <jcoxon> oh FM isn't it
[22:37] <jcoxon> go USB
[22:37] <Fighter1405> I had it on USB before
[22:37] <Fighter1405> Ok, back on USB
[22:37] <jcoxon> the convention is if the freq is above 10Mhz use USB
[22:38] <Fighter1405> How distinct should the peak be?
[22:38] <jcoxon> like a bell curve
[22:38] <jcoxon> though a bit steeper
[22:38] <jcoxon> especially at close range
[22:38] <Fighter1405> Not getting anything that dramatic
[22:39] <jcoxon> scan up and down
[22:39] <jcoxon> when i'm set up i usually find the signal at 434.072
[22:40] <Fighter1405> I get nothing at that frequency
[22:40] <jcoxon> you must be getting something as you can hear it
[22:40] <jcoxon> keep scanning
[22:40] <Fighter1405> When I hear it it's at 4.075
[22:41] <jcoxon> okay and what do you see - can you screenshot anything more then the baseline noise
[22:42] <Fighter1405> Gah, imageshack isn't working
[22:44] <Fighter1405> here
[22:44] <Fighter1405> http://f.imagehost.org/view/0040/screen
[22:44] <Fighter1405> That's about the best I can do
[22:44] <jcoxon> np
[22:45] <jcoxon> okay i see it
[22:45] <jcoxon> do you have this wired up on a breadboard?
[22:45] <Fighter1405> yup
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[22:45] <jcoxon> okay pull out one of the resistors and see what happens
[22:45] <jcoxon> so that you disconnect on of the pins
[22:46] <Fighter1405> Not much really
[22:46] <natrium42> yo peeps & creeps
[22:46] <Fighter1405> hey natrium42
[22:46] <jcoxon> okay, put it back in
[22:46] <jcoxon> and disconnect the other pin instead
[22:46] <Fighter1405> ok
[22:46] <jcoxon> hey natrium42
[22:46] <Fighter1405> now it stays at basic flat line the whole time
[22:46] <jcoxon> right
[22:46] <natrium42> Fighter1405, what are you doing?
[22:46] <jcoxon> sounds like you've only got one pin connected
[22:46] <Fighter1405> Trying to get my NTX2 to communicate
[22:47] <Fighter1405> ok, the other pin left plugged in?
[22:49] <jcoxon> okay lets work through the theory a little
[22:50] <Fighter1405> Just running some continuity checks on it
[22:50] <jcoxon> what we are doing is driving a single tx pin with 2 avr pins
[22:50] <Fighter1405> yup
[22:50] <jcoxon> the 2 pins supply different voltages
[22:50] <jcoxon> and when one is high the other is low
[22:51] <Fighter1405> ok
[22:51] <jcoxon> so the first step is really to connect one pin with a suitable voltage and see that it works
[22:51] <jcoxon> creating a peak on fldigi
[22:52] <natrium42> Fighter1405, i still haven't sent your gps thingy :S
[22:52] <Fighter1405> Right
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[22:52] <Fighter1405> natrium42, there isn't a rush. I really appreciate the help
[22:52] <natrium42> are you good @ tiny soldering?
[22:52] <Fighter1405> jcoxon is 4.5v a suitable voltage?
[22:52] <jcoxon> no
[22:53] <Fighter1405> Not really natrium42 :s
[22:53] <jcoxon> we are looking to be around 1.2v
[22:53] <Fighter1405> Right
[22:54] <Fighter1405> 0.9 is too low?
[22:55] <jcoxon> not necessarily
[22:55] <jcoxon> so provide that voltage to the tx pin and find the peak on fldigi
[22:55] <Fighter1405> With a 5v supply, it's a little hard to split
[22:55] <jcoxon> what arduino are you using?
[22:56] <Fighter1405> duemilanove
[22:56] <jcoxon> the 5v version
[22:56] <jcoxon> fair enough
[22:56] <Fighter1405> It has both 5v and 3v3 outputs, I'm running on 5v
[22:56] <jcoxon> you running the ntx2 off 5v?
[22:57] <Fighter1405> Yes
[22:57] <natrium42> brb, reboot
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[22:57] <jcoxon> okay
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[22:59] <RocketBoy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taux40zwqTc
[23:00] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, use a voltage divider calculator to work out what resistors to use
[23:00] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, ooooo cool
[23:00] <RocketBoy> did U see my bigger tetroon?
[23:00] <jcoxon> nope
[23:01] <Fighter1405> It suggests 51 and 16 ohms jcoxon :s
[23:02] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, its all to do with ratios really
[23:02] <RocketBoy> http://imagebin.org/53237
[23:02] <jcoxon> so you can play around with it
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[23:02] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, ooo cool
[23:02] <jcoxon> so mini - zp then
[23:02] <RocketBoy> 1.8m side, 7.5 micron polythene (total 46 gram) ZP tetroon - about 1Kg lift
[23:02] <natrium42> \o/ linux
[23:02] <jcoxon> wow
[23:03] <jcoxon> how much additional space is there?
[23:03] <jcoxon> i guess you'd use less lift
[23:03] <RocketBoy> just sellotape at the mo though
[23:03] <jcoxon> as in for it to be a zp you need to allow for expansion etc
[23:03] <Fighter1405> Right, I got about 0.85v jcoxon
[23:03] <RocketBoy> yeah - about 1/4 of that normally for JS crusing
[23:03] <Fighter1405> Will that do?
[23:04] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, go for it
[23:04] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, as long as its not too much you can experiment
[23:04] <jcoxon> (too much is i reckon over 3.3v or so)
[23:05] <Fighter1405> That seems to be doing very little
[23:05] <RocketBoy> jcoxon: the idea is to do some trial JS cruse flights using them
[23:05] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, can you hear a tone at all?
[23:05] <Fighter1405> Yes
[23:05] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, oooo cool, sounds great
[23:05] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, if there is a tone find the peak
[23:06] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, whats the sort plan then?
[23:06] <Fighter1405> jcoxon are there any examples of the kind of thing I'm looking for?
[23:06] <RocketBoy> tetroons are very easy to make
[23:07] <RocketBoy> the plan (if there is one) is to make some throw away payloads and fly them in a fast JS to see how far they get
[23:07] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, like a mountain! as you tune up and down does the tone sound different?
[23:07] <Fighter1405> yup, different pitches
[23:09] <jcoxon> http://forums.ni.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/222iD45D93E1C6B771F7/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1
[23:09] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, cool
[23:09] <Fighter1405> wow ok, very obvious then
[23:10] <jcoxon> the aim is to get 2 of those , close to each other
[23:10] <jcoxon> like this: http://www.aa5au.com/gettingstarted/mmtty18.gif
[23:11] <Fighter1405> with the same tone?
[23:11] <jcoxon> well they'll be different slightly
[23:11] <jcoxon> hence why they are seperate
[23:11] <Fighter1405> I got http://f.imagehost.org/view/0155/screen2
[23:11] <Fighter1405> Is that close?
[23:11] <jcoxon> great
[23:11] <jcoxon> yup
[23:12] <jcoxon> thats it
[23:12] <Fighter1405> Yay :)
[23:12] <jcoxon> so how are you making that?
[23:12] <jcoxon> with a pin from the arduino?
[23:12] <Fighter1405> Nah, just a potential divider
[23:12] <jcoxon> from the 5v source?
[23:13] <Fighter1405> yes
[23:13] <jcoxon> okay well now just attach the potential divider to one of the pins you were planning to use
[23:13] <Fighter1405> right
[23:13] <jcoxon> instead of the 5v
[23:13] <jcoxon> as the arduino when it pulls its pin high will supply 5v
[23:14] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, am rebuilding Peg VI right now
[23:14] <jcoxon> stripped down the camera and now it does't work :-(
[23:14] <Fighter1405> ok
[23:15] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, set up?
[23:15] <Fighter1405> I think so
[23:15] <RocketBoy> Jcoxon: this week is looking good JS wise
[23:15] <Fighter1405> Doesn't seem to give the same peak any more though
[23:15] <Fighter1405> Not as dramatic anyway
[23:15] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, got an exam week on weds so not around this weekend
[23:15] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, same place just a bit more curved?
[23:16] <Fighter1405> Yes jcoxon
[23:16] <Fighter1405> Exactly
[23:16] <Fighter1405> Quite a bit more curved though
[23:16] <jcoxon> still a peak?
[23:16] <RocketBoy> i may do a launch this w/e if the JS WX hold up
[23:17] <Fighter1405> http://f.imagehost.org/view/0018/screen3
[23:17] <jcoxon> latex or zp?
[23:17] <Fighter1405> That's the new one
[23:17] <RocketBoy> latex
[23:18] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, describe your breadboard
[23:18] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, oh okay
[23:18] <Fighter1405> Ok
[23:18] <jcoxon> i can track from london
[23:19] <RocketBoy> ta
[23:19] <Fighter1405> I have pin 8 going to a 47k resistor them to the TXD then to a 10k resistor then to ground
[23:19] <Fighter1405> Sorry, pin 9
[23:19] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, http://f.imagehost.org/view/0018/screen3
[23:19] <jcoxon> whats causing all the additional peaks?
[23:21] <RocketBoy> probably not pulse shaping
[23:22] <jcoxon> okay, yup i understand
[23:22] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, okay lets now add in the second pin
[23:23] <Fighter1405> ok
[23:23] <jcoxon> you need a very similar setup
[23:23] <jcoxon> but it needs to provide a slightly different voltage
[23:23] <jcoxon> only a tiny bit
[23:23] <RocketBoy> the peaks are every 100hz - twice the symbol (baud) rate?
[23:23] <jcoxon> the difference equals the shift
[23:24] <jcoxon> the baud rate is 50
[23:25] <Fighter1405> I messed with the baud rate in your source, does that matter?
[23:25] <jcoxon> not immediately
[23:25] <Fighter1405> ok, set a second one in
[23:26] <Fighter1405> Not sure it is a big enough difference though
[23:27] <Fighter1405> Second one it 47k - 2k2 - TXD - 10k
[23:27] <Fighter1405> *is
[23:27] <jcoxon> experiement till you start to pull the peaks apart
[23:28] <jcoxon> add another 2k2 in
[23:29] <Fighter1405> Did that, looked about the same
[23:29] <Laurenceb> what code are you using?
[23:29] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, just my rtty code
[23:29] <jcoxon> for 2 pins and resistors adapted from rjharrison
[23:29] <Laurenceb> you could try the pulse shaping off the wiki
[23:29] <Fighter1405> http://f.imagehost.org/view/0852/screen4
[23:30] <Fighter1405> Thats with 47k - 10k - TXD - 10k
[23:30] <Laurenceb> it may be a sound card issue
[23:30] <Laurenceb> try adjusting the volume
[23:30] <Fighter1405> On the computer?
[23:30] <Laurenceb> yeah
[23:30] <Laurenceb> and on the receiver
[23:30] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, if you go to far then the 2nd peak will be off the 'screen'
[23:30] <Fighter1405> jcoxon the second 2k2 looked pretty much the same as that link
[23:31] <Fighter1405> I have another computer right here, should I try that?
[23:31] <jcoxon> not yet
[23:31] <jcoxon> still need to get your 2 peaks
[23:31] <Fighter1405> right
[23:31] <jcoxon> we know that we can get 1 just need to add a second
[23:32] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, i have a suggestion - which you might not directly like...
[23:32] <Fighter1405> ok
[23:32] <jcoxon> scrap all this for now
[23:32] <jcoxon> instead work out how to do morse code
[23:32] <jcoxon> by doing that you'll get a feel for how the radios work etc
[23:33] <Fighter1405> I thought morse code had been unsuccesful on previous balloons?
[23:33] <jcoxon> rjharrison did it very well
[23:33] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, my implementation of it wasn't as good
[23:33] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, you don't necessarily need to fly with morse
[23:33] <jcoxon> just work out how to get it working and decoding
[23:33] <jcoxon> then move on to rtty
[23:33] <Fighter1405> ah I see
[23:34] <jcoxon> because i can help you loads but in the end you need to understand how everything works to make a good flight computer
[23:34] <Fighter1405> Yeah I get that :s
[23:34] <jcoxon> morse isn't difficult
[23:34] <jcoxon> don't use anything of mine though :-p
[23:35] <Fighter1405> Haha, ok I'll try tommorow :p
[23:35] <jcoxon> its great when it starts working
[23:35] <Fighter1405> Just a final thing, the circuit should look like this yes? http://yfrog.com/3ocircuitep
[23:36] <Fighter1405> Uhm add a 10k between TXD and GND
[23:36] <Fighter1405> I didn't draw that for some reason
[23:37] <jcoxon> ummmm
[23:37] <jcoxon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Impedance_Voltage_divider.png
[23:38] <jcoxon> thats how it should look
[23:38] <jcoxon> for 1 pin
[23:38] <Fighter1405> Yeah, mine is in effect that with two pins?
[23:39] <jcoxon> okay so the 10k goes between the junction and GND
[23:39] <Fighter1405> Yeah
[23:39] <jcoxon> okay then yeah
[23:39] <jcoxon> go for morse and report back :-)
[23:40] <jcoxon> right i'm off
[23:40] <Fighter1405> Will do, I'll take a stab at it tommorow
[23:40] <jcoxon> night all
[23:40] <Fighter1405> Cya then, thanks for all the help
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