highaltitude.log.20090617

[00:00] <Laurenceb> than you wouldnt have to overdirve as much
[00:00] <Laurenceb> should be able to get on - off in ~50ms or less
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> I doubt it
[00:01] <Laurenceb> for the ganged valves, and ~5ms for the solenoids
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> for non brushless motors
[00:01] <Laurenceb> it only has to rotate 90 degrees
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> or rateher
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> for coreless
[00:01] <Laurenceb> yeah motor spinup is an issue
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> no, it has to rotate 90*50 degrees
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> gears
[00:01] <Laurenceb> yes
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> if you're doing that, you need some sort of clutch too
[00:02] <Laurenceb> noooo
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[00:02] <Laurenceb> I'm sure its possible in 100grams
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> or something from the motor maker saying that stalling it at a few hundred RPM instantly is OK
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> And the valve being able to take it
[00:03] <Laurenceb> I'd have one with a quadrature encoder
[00:03] <Laurenceb> precision microdrives do them actually, but their motors arent that decent
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> missing the point
[00:04] <Laurenceb> why would the motor stall?
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> If you accellerate, then have to decellerate to 0 to go 90 degrees, that's much slower than accellerating, and slamming into the valve stop, with a clutch
[00:04] <Laurenceb> theres no valve stop
[00:05] <Laurenceb> but yeah decell accell is an issue, one reason to go for a better motor
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> or an actual stop, and clutch.
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> so you can just let the motor accellerate all the way to the stop
[00:06] <Laurenceb> you dont need a stop for ball valves
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> you do if you don't want it to go back on
[00:06] <Laurenceb> you keep track with the quadrature encoder
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> you need what - 4 times the acceelleration to go 0-45 accellerating, 45-90 decellerating than you need to go 0-90 accellerating, then hit a stop.
[00:08] <Laurenceb> I guess
[00:08] <Laurenceb> but the important determining factor is small movements to throttle over to 100 to 90% thrust range
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[00:09] <Laurenceb> but I'm betting you can improve the scituation a lot with ceramic valves
[00:09] <Laurenceb> IIRC mixer taps use replaceable modules
[00:10] <Laurenceb> might be useful for this
[00:10] Action: Laurenceb wonders where to look for such a device
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> If you can build a suitable module, I might also buy some for my shower.
[00:12] <Laurenceb> lol
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> I've actually bbeen wondering about that sort of app.
[00:12] <Laurenceb> IIRC its some sort of sleeve valve with very high tolerance ceramic parts
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> And programmable waterinc cheaply
[00:13] <Laurenceb> my local B&Q had some in the bargain bin recently
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> by programmable, I of course mean from the computer
[00:17] <Laurenceb> http://www.notjusttaps.co.uk/spares-valves-half-inch-quarter-turn.htm
[00:18] <Laurenceb> pretty much ideal
[00:18] <Laurenceb> unfortunately hard to gang
[00:18] <Laurenceb> without a couple of greas on the top
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> 'sold in pairs - left and right turn'
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> wouldn't this mean you could just put them at 180 degrees?
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> also - brass isn't good for H2O2
[00:20] <Laurenceb> electroplate
[00:21] <Laurenceb> ideally theyd screw into the bottom bulkhead from above
[00:21] <Laurenceb> and use that nice thread and o ring to seal
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> unfortunately most electroplatable easily stuff is a catalyst
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> silver, copper, nickel
[00:22] <Laurenceb> can you electroplate aluminium?
[00:25] <Laurenceb> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SIRRUS-DUETTE-BSM3000-CARTRIDGE-BATH-SHOWER-MIXER-NEW_W0QQitemZ280359219486QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home_Garden_Bathroom_Taps_PP?hash=item4146b6311e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A6|72%3A1683|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A25#ebayphotohosting
[00:25] <Laurenceb> cant quite see whats going on there
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> no
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> well - yes
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> but not aqueosly
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> Al is electroplated - essentially - out of a mineral bath - to manufacture it
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> also - don't assumee that the cceramic is OK
[00:27] <SpeedEvil> for example, it may have enough iron in to act as a catalyst
[00:27] <Laurenceb> hmm yeah
[00:28] <Laurenceb> I think its got to be possible to use these modules
[00:28] <Laurenceb> stainless steel is ok?
[00:28] <SpeedEvil> some, yyes
[00:29] <Laurenceb> hmm its certainly worth a shot imo
[00:29] <Laurenceb> tool cool to ignore :P
[00:31] <Laurenceb> if you stick gears on the top it gives you the opportunity to gear down the motor some more, so its not all dead weight
[00:34] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[00:34] <Laurenceb> I'm not sure about the torque to operte those things, but its pretty low
[00:35] <Laurenceb> < 0.1Nm
[00:36] <Laurenceb> the pressure will be applied in the reverse direction to normal, but from the picture I think that'll be good
[00:36] <Laurenceb> as it forces the liner onto the outer shell
[00:36] <Laurenceb> - cylinder
[00:41] <Laurenceb> might not work actually... if it jams
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[00:46] <Laurenceb> http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/ceramic_disc_taps.htm <- looks like I was wrong
[00:47] <Laurenceb> that vavle design doesnt look very useful :-/
[00:47] <SpeedEvil> what's hte flow-rate - a few hundred ml/s?
[00:51] <Laurenceb> hmm actually ... the kerosene flow rate is a lot lower
[00:52] <Laurenceb> about 580 ml/s of H2O2, 90ml/s kero
[00:54] <SpeedEvil> You 'can' afford 10PSI probably easily - which is quite a small orifice for a tap
[00:54] <SpeedEvil> at 580ml/s fow
[00:57] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:57] <Laurenceb> you need about 9mm diameter aperture
[00:59] <Laurenceb> down to 6 or so if you tolerate more p drop
[00:59] <Laurenceb> but those tap modules down look like they'd withstand 2000psi
[01:01] <Laurenceb> mains water is typically 200psi max
[01:03] <SpeedEvil> err - no
[01:03] <SpeedEvil> It varies
[01:03] <SpeedEvil> lots
[01:03] <SpeedEvil> for example, ones that are meant to run from hot/cold water tanks need to deal with about 2m head
[01:03] <SpeedEvil> or 1.4psi
[01:05] <Laurenceb> http://www.plumbingpages.com/featurepages/HWPRV.cfm
[01:06] <Laurenceb> ceramic cartridge taps can be run off mains
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> oh - max
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> fair enough
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> missed that
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[01:10] <Laurenceb> I guess its possible to make a ceramic valve from scratch
[01:11] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[01:11] <Laurenceb> but its a bit of a pain compared to a ball valve
[01:11] <SpeedEvil> afterall, you don't care about sealing
[01:11] <Laurenceb> the tolerances are crazy
[01:11] <SpeedEvil> after once
[01:11] <Laurenceb> true
[01:11] <Laurenceb> you could seal it with something
[01:12] <Laurenceb> but itd mean there was nothing avaliable for attitude control after burnout
[01:15] <SpeedEvil> true
[01:15] <SpeedEvil> I have doubts that'll actuaally work
[01:16] <SpeedEvil> you need to slam the valve damn fast on that last bit of propellant to keep the helium in
[01:16] <Laurenceb> nah you fill with some extra H2O2
[01:16] <SpeedEvil> ah
[01:16] <Laurenceb> thats used for injection
[01:16] <Laurenceb> hopefully you have a bit left over
[01:17] <Laurenceb> theres catylist chambers on the injection lines
[01:18] <Laurenceb> it has the advantage of approx doubling the injection efficiency
[01:18] <SpeedEvil> thought you were still thinking of ullage gasses for terminal attutude control
[01:18] <Laurenceb> yeah
[01:18] <Laurenceb> I'm not sure how useful that is
[01:18] <Laurenceb> but at burnout your not going to be going straight
[01:19] <Laurenceb> still, most upper stages steer using nozzle gymballing
[01:21] <Laurenceb> hmm a bet you could do a "combination" valve, so theres a cylinder that sits against an o ring, sealing the flow
[01:21] <Laurenceb> then its lifted of with a thread, by another cylinder that acts as a not very efficient sleeve valve
[01:23] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[01:23] <SpeedEvil> gimballing is easy at large scales
[01:24] <SpeedEvil> (for various values of easy)
[01:24] <Laurenceb> you only want +-100% over long timescales
[01:24] <Laurenceb> you want 90 to 100% over short timescales
[01:24] <Laurenceb> long ~400ms, short ~40ms
[01:35] <Laurenceb> actually a PTFE-PTFE might do something for the scituation
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[03:57] <stilldavid> Hey all, I am just sitting down with a radiometrix TX2-433
[03:58] <stilldavid> From what I can tell, I just throw it serial data and it spits it out as RF, but that's about where my knowledge ends, anyone help shed some light?
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[07:40] <jcoxon> morning all
[07:40] <jcoxon> quick q for anyone who is around
[07:40] <jcoxon> what sort of socket do you use for say an atmega168?
[07:41] <jcoxon> all i can find our turned pin sockets - not sure if they are suitable
[07:45] <akawaka> i've used those for PICs before
[07:45] <akawaka> haven't had a problem
[07:46] <akawaka> always preferred them to the DIL sockets really
[07:46] <akawaka> seem sturdier
[07:46] <akawaka> but tough to remove the chip from
[07:48] <jcoxon> oh right
[07:48] <jcoxon> found these
[07:48] <jcoxon> http://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?&tier1=Cables+%26+Connectors&tier2=Connectors+-+Multipole&tier3=DIL+Sockets&tier4=Low+profile+DIL+IC+sockets&moduleno=63772&catref=22-0175
[07:48] <jcoxon> might be more suitable
[07:48] <jcoxon> think this is what i was originally looking for
[07:58] <jcoxon> bbl
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[08:52] <Laurenceb> hi
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[10:49] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: ping
[11:07] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
[11:50] <SpeedEvil> pong
[11:50] Action: SpeedEvil watches the rain outside.
[12:08] <Laurenceb> hi
[12:08] <Laurenceb> sunny here
[12:08] <Laurenceb> I had a go at optimising the rocket design a bit more
[12:09] <Laurenceb> turns out a 110mm diameter 3m long tube works better, with 50% helium fill at 1000PSI
[12:09] <Laurenceb> it can be made with standard CF tube - the 1.5GPa stuff
[12:09] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[12:10] <SpeedEvil> what's the structural margin?
[12:10] <Laurenceb> 50%
[12:11] <SpeedEvil> I'd be really worried about oscillatory bending
[12:11] <Laurenceb> also ball valves work, the trick is using the 1mm floroelastopolymer o-rings
[12:11] <Laurenceb> then torque comes down to ~0.2Nm
[12:12] <SpeedEvil> There are other cheats - having no pressure seal
[12:12] <Laurenceb> I was also looking at pumping
[12:12] <SpeedEvil> you have the motor+gearbox+... at the same pressure
[12:13] <SpeedEvil> cross-feeding yo mean?
[12:13] <SpeedEvil> actual pumping takes stupid powers
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> !math .0006*(2000/14)*100000
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> oops
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> 9Kw
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> (for a main oxidiser pump)
[12:16] <Laurenceb> yeah, but you can use H2O2 decomposition
[12:16] <Laurenceb> Ive come up with a recoprocating piston design
[12:17] <Laurenceb> using solenoid valves to inject H2O2 onto cataylist
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> I did too - one issue is you need quite a large resovoir
[12:17] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:17] <Laurenceb> ~500grams
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> or multiple pumps
[12:17] <Laurenceb> oh for pressure stabilisation?
[12:17] <Laurenceb> only ~10ml
[12:18] <Laurenceb> but you need ~500grams of peroxide at about 1000PSI
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> I mean - if you want to keep the combustion chamber pressure constant.
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> and you also need insulation
[12:18] <Laurenceb> if you run a double acting pump at 50Hz its not too bad
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> or some way of managing that thermally
[12:19] <Laurenceb> I dont think it really matters
[12:19] <Laurenceb> stainless steel main body
[12:19] <Laurenceb> check valves in the ends, catylist chambers in the middle
[12:20] <Laurenceb> the main problem is that you need ~500grams of peroxide in a 1000psi cylinder
[12:20] <Laurenceb> that adds a lot of mass
[12:21] <SpeedEvil> for a carbon cylinder?
[12:21] <Laurenceb> 600grams say
[12:21] <Laurenceb> inclusing pipes
[12:22] <Laurenceb> guess the peroxide is used up - so its like a decrease in ISP instead of dead weight
[12:23] <Laurenceb> the He in the pressurised rocket actually weighs a lot - 160 grams
[12:23] <Laurenceb> probably as much as the CF tank for feeding a pump
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[12:24] <SpeedEvil> Use H2, and burn it!
[12:24] <Laurenceb> I think a pump for the ~20Kg modules could be done for ~150 grams
[12:24] <SpeedEvil> Or not. :)
[12:24] <SpeedEvil> afk a bit
[12:24] <SpeedEvil> coffee/cooking
[12:24] <Laurenceb> basically a 3cm diameter 10cm long cylinder
[12:25] <Laurenceb> me 2, bbl
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[12:34] <SpeedEvil> drawings are always good :)
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[13:02] <Laurenceb> back
[13:03] <SpeedEvil> also
[13:07] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/52769
[13:07] <Laurenceb> excuse paint lameness
[13:08] <Laurenceb> red=solenoid valves, green catalist, blue kerosene , purple peroxide
[13:08] <Laurenceb> the circle are exhaust ports
[13:08] <Laurenceb> yellow are hollow alu pistons
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> the line in the middle is a bulkhead?
[13:11] <Laurenceb> yes
[13:11] <SpeedEvil> where does the perxide come in?
[13:11] <Laurenceb> through the red bits
[13:11] <SpeedEvil> no - the peroxide to be pumped
[13:11] <Laurenceb> for driving, then theres check vaves in either end for pumping
[13:11] <SpeedEvil> ah
[13:12] <SpeedEvil> how does the exhaust gas get out
[13:12] <SpeedEvil> oh - vent holes
[13:12] <Laurenceb> through the circles
[13:13] <SpeedEvil> you could also use the pump exhaust for vectoring maybe
[13:13] <SpeedEvil> though that raises nasty problems with high-temp
[13:13] <Laurenceb> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_-nQfPsfB_KE/SYAfVDzZHOI/AAAAAAAABx4/a3yx8l38f1Y/s320/co2_1.gif
[13:14] <Laurenceb> ^ conceptually similar
[13:14] <SpeedEvil> probably best just to dump it through some sort of basic nozzle
[13:14] <Laurenceb> it really wants to be dumped to ambient pressure
[13:15] <SpeedEvil> Why - does dumping to a 100PSI nozzle really change stuff?
[13:15] <Laurenceb> actually I guess not much
[13:15] <Laurenceb> you are pumping to 500psi
[13:15] <Laurenceb> so 100psi residual pressure in the "exhausted" space isnt too bad
[13:17] <Laurenceb> hmm if you had two of these piston units, then you could drive 4 injection ports
[13:18] <Laurenceb> if you phased them youd dramatically reduce the need for pressure smoothing on the pumped propellant
[13:22] <Laurenceb> but you suffer as your using the high pressure tank as a source of attitude control peroxide
[13:22] <Laurenceb> of course whatd be really cool is to use the pumped peroxide to power the pump
[13:23] <SpeedEvil> You don't need high pressure stored peroxide - very high pressure
[13:23] <SpeedEvil> As your exhausted chamber starts at low pressure - and if you can inject fast enough that teh catalyst does not act immediately
[13:24] <Laurenceb> yeah - but if you add a 500PSI accumulator thats full at "ignition"
[13:24] <SpeedEvil> s/do not/may not/
[13:24] <Laurenceb> you dont need a tank at all
[13:25] <Laurenceb> unfortunately you need helium to pressurise the main tanks to ~20PSI or so
[13:25] <SpeedEvil> so?
[13:26] <Laurenceb> the high pressure peroxide tank can be ~half full and it doubles as a helium tank
[13:26] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[13:28] <Laurenceb> works quite nicely if its at ~500PSI
[13:28] <Laurenceb> erm 100PSI even
[13:28] <Laurenceb> *1000
[13:31] <Laurenceb> actually its probably sensible to have two tanks
[13:32] <Laurenceb> off the shelf SCUBA tank at 5000PSI with helium then the pump peroxide tank through a reg at a few hundered and the main tanks at 20psi
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[13:45] <Laurenceb> or better helium for the main tank pressurisation only
[13:45] <Laurenceb> then use an accumulator to power the pump
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> hmm.
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> Seems plausible - but as always - ...
[13:49] <Laurenceb> I'm not sure how easy it is to build suitable regulators
[14:03] <Laurenceb> you could probably build a solenoid operated valve for roughly equivalent mass
[14:03] <Laurenceb> when your trying to switch a few thousand psi with a few psi
[14:08] <Laurenceb> yeah the accumulator is the tricky bit, you need d it to be full of H2O2
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[14:11] <Laurenceb> and pressurised to a few hundered psi
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> probably with a balloon in it of some form
[14:12] <Laurenceb> the other problem is ignition
[14:13] <Laurenceb> as you cant start the kerosene before peroxide or visa versa
[14:14] <Laurenceb> I guess pyro igniters would work, but it all adds mass
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> :/
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> at least for the first stage that mass is free
[14:15] <Laurenceb> atm its ending up ~500grams klighter than the pressurised
[14:19] <Laurenceb> maybe a spring loaded accumulator would work
[14:20] <Laurenceb> only needs to be a cubic centimeter or so
[14:22] <Laurenceb> maybe spring loaded piston with a hab style pyro holdback - so theres no pressure until you want to start the motor
[14:22] <Laurenceb> that way you avoid leakage losses whilst its stored
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> afk - hedgetrimming in the rain. Fun.
[14:27] <Laurenceb> dont get electricuted
[14:27] <Laurenceb> take an RCD
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[14:30] <edmoore> fergusnoble: ping
[14:39] <SpeedEvil> with seccateurs
[14:44] <Laurenceb> ah fairdoos
[14:44] <Laurenceb> its pretty much as fast anyway
[14:47] <Laurenceb> looks like spring based accumulator works fine, <30 grams
[14:49] <SpeedEvil> Did what trimming I can earlier with hedgetrimmer - now I'm at thte weaving it into itself to form an integral hedge.
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> with laptop in greenhouse for when it's raining too hard
[14:51] <Laurenceb> lol your addicted to IRC
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[15:14] <epictetus> ah, the eternal battle of man vs. nature known as yardwork.
[15:15] <epictetus> and that bastion of manhood, the shed
[15:15] Action: Laurenceb considers a neural irc implant for speedevil
[15:17] <KingJ> Don't forget some soft of neural network connection implant too
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> gnuplot -
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> Is there a simple way I've missed to plot derivatives? I've got a datafile like '12 Jun 13:18 44' '13 Jun 12:02 48' - these are electric use numbers when I happen to note them down. I can easily set timefmt and plot it. But I want to plot something like
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> SpeedEvil: a bar from 12 jun 13:00 to 13 jun 12:00 4 units high
[15:25] <Laurenceb> preprocess the data?
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> that means a thingy that understands times though
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> which isn't 100% trivial
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> I was wondering if there was another way that I'd missed
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[15:34] <Laurenceb> I wonder whats easier... pumped or unpumped
[15:34] <Laurenceb> to pump or not to pump
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[15:52] <akawaka> you guys should check out scipy/numpy/matplotlib for python
[15:53] <akawaka> python(x,y) on windows a good python distro for it
[15:54] <Laurenceb> eww windows
[15:54] <Laurenceb> gtg, cy all
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[15:56] <akawaka> most linux distros include packages for everything you need
[15:56] <akawaka> http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/gallery.html
[16:18] Nick change: Fighter|sleep -> Fighter1405
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[16:19] <AlexBreton> good day
[16:21] <Fighter1405> Heya
[16:22] <Fighter1405> Radiometrix are so hard to email >.<
[16:22] <Fighter1405> I sent them the link to your project to prove they have sponsered projects other than university projects before, and then they thought I was at reading with you guys :(
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[16:27] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, hola
[16:27] <AlexBreton> yo
[16:27] <AlexBreton> aww Fighter1405...
[16:27] <AlexBreton> you need to trade something with them
[16:27] <AlexBreton> sbasuita
[16:27] <Fighter1405> What do I have to trade? :p
[16:28] <AlexBreton> schematics, pictures
[16:28] <AlexBreton> advertising space on a blog
[16:28] <Fighter1405> Sure they'll get a mention on the blog
[16:28] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, we need to get dan to give us the schematics
[16:28] <sbasuita> ...
[16:28] <Fighter1405> Perhaps I should tell them that
[16:28] <sbasuita> where is herabot?
[16:28] <AlexBreton> radiometrix will want them
[16:29] <AlexBreton> Fighter1405, did they deny giving you a transmitter?
[16:29] <AlexBreton> or not give you one
[16:29] <AlexBreton> ?
[16:29] <Fighter1405> Denied it so far
[16:29] herabot (n=herabot@78.146.177.110) joined #highaltitude.
[16:29] <Fighter1405> Then they thought I was from Reading, and said "We already sent you one"
[16:29] <sbasuita> hehe
[16:29] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, we're the reading crew
[16:30] <Fighter1405> I know :p
[16:30] <sbasuita> herabot, sort yourself out
[16:30] <Fighter1405> I linked to your blog to prove they did sponser things other than uni projects
[16:30] <AlexBreton> hmm
[16:30] <AlexBreton> they may just be fed up with dishing out free stuff
[16:31] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, what are we doing with our motherload of batteries?
[16:31] <Fighter1405> Probably ^^ I'll buy one if I have to
[16:31] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, sending 20 to Fighter1405
[16:31] <Fighter1405> :-)
[16:31] <Fighter1405> Thanks again
[16:31] <AlexBreton> k
[16:31] <sbasuita> We (UKHAS) need something like http://planet.ubuntu.com/
[16:32] <sbasuita> to aggregate all the ballooning blogs
[16:32] <Fighter1405> How are you guys powering the Yaesu? Batteries?
[16:32] <AlexBreton> no, magic :P
[16:32] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, it's a pain
[16:32] <sbasuita> takes C type batteries
[16:32] <Fighter1405> Yeah, mine arrived today
[16:33] <sbasuita> We bought some holders for AAs that make them bigger
[16:33] <AlexBreton> we have AA-->C adaptors
[16:33] <Fighter1405> Ah, nice
[16:33] <Fighter1405> How much power does it use?
[16:33] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, you tested your radio then?
[16:33] <Fighter1405> Nope, I have no transmitter or batteries to test with :p
[16:33] <sbasuita> ; (
[16:33] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, you should listen in to a local 70cm repeater
[16:34] <AlexBreton> OTTD here
[16:34] <Fighter1405> No arial either :( Would a piece of wire do for that?
[16:34] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, http://www.ukrepeater.net/channels/maps/70cm-hi.jpg
[16:34] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, not sure about the receiver
[16:34] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, perhaps a coil
[16:34] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, look into how to make a whip
[16:34] <Fighter1405> Will do
[16:34] <Fighter1405> Can I just plug 15v into the back of it?
[16:35] <sbasuita> not sure
[16:35] <sbasuita> I've just been running off batteries
[16:35] <Fighter1405> How long do they last?
[16:35] <AlexBreton> a fair bit
[16:35] <Fighter1405> Good :)
[16:36] edmoore (n=ed@pomegranate.chu.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[16:36] <Fighter1405> And is it easy to figure it all out? Just turn it on?
[16:36] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, yes
[16:37] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, read the manual
[16:37] <Fighter1405> Manual :(
[16:42] <Fighter1405> Manual says "do not exceed 15v" - does 9v have much chance of working?
[16:44] <Fighter1405> Answer: yes :p
[16:48] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, you're up and running?
[16:49] Laurenceb (n=laurence@dyres221-74.surrey.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[16:49] <Fighter1405> Powers up sbasuita, just trying to figure out the switches on it
[16:50] <Fighter1405> And how I'd go about finding my 70cm repeater
[16:50] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, ok, first set mode to fm simp
[16:50] <sbasuita> you don't need to worry about any other settings
[16:50] <Fighter1405> ok
[16:50] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, look at this map
[16:50] <sbasuita> http://www.ukrepeater.net/channels/70cm.php
[16:50] <Fighter1405> Done
[16:50] <sbasuita> you should hear static
[16:51] <sbasuita> now the display omits the first two digits of the frequency
[16:51] <Fighter1405> Yup
[16:51] <sbasuita> ok cool
[16:51] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, find the repeater nearest you, hit details, and tune to Repeater Output
[16:51] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, now wait for somebody to say something
[16:52] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, you'll probably hear some morse every few minutes as the repeater outputs its callsign
[16:52] <Fighter1405> I'll need some kind of antenna first I guess
[16:54] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, yep. Bear in mind the connector on the 790 is a BNC type
[16:55] <Fighter1405> Right, so I can't just plug some wire in?
[16:56] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, you should be able to
[16:56] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, if you can get something to fit in the hole
[16:56] <Fighter1405> Just the hole right in the middle?
[16:58] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, yes
[16:58] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, you might get away with a straight wire
[16:58] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, might need to get an optimum length or something
[16:59] <Fighter1405> I'll just try a straight wire and see what it does
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[17:00] <Fighter1405> There we go, still fuzzy now but I'll leave it a bit and see if anything comes through
[17:00] <Fighter1405> Thanks for the advice
[17:00] <Fighter1405> brb
[17:01] DanielRichman (n=DanielRi@78.146.177.110) joined #highaltitude.
[17:08] edmoore (n=ed@pomegranate.chu.cam.ac.uk) left irc:
[17:09] <AlexBreton> DanielRichman
[17:09] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, ?
[17:09] <AlexBreton> can yo give me the schematics of the flight computer?
[17:09] <AlexBreton> email
[17:09] <DanielRichman> Why?
[17:09] <AlexBreton> we need to send them to radiometrix
[17:09] Bertrix (n=Bertrix@94-225-132-78.access.telenet.be) joined #highaltitude.
[17:09] <AlexBreton> to prove we haven't been faffing about all this time
[17:09] <DanielRichman> Oh? Why's that? have they asked for them?
[17:12] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, will PDFs be ok?
[17:12] <AlexBreton> I guess so
[17:13] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, did they ask for them?
[17:13] <AlexBreton> no, but I think we should
[17:13] <AlexBreton> they could get published =)
[17:13] <Fighter1405> Pssh, nothing but fuzz
[17:13] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, what kind of copyright header should go on the top?
[17:13] Action: Fighter1405 is blaming the antenna
[17:13] <DanielRichman> currently it's
[17:14] <DanielRichman> ALIEN1 Flight Computer - Copyright (C) 2009: Daniel Richman
[17:14] <AlexBreton> OK sure
[17:14] <AlexBreton> that's fine
[17:14] <AlexBreton> just email me the PDFs
[17:14] <DanielRichman> Do I need to put All Rights Reserved?
[17:14] <AlexBreton> no
[17:14] <DanielRichman> obviously I do
[17:14] Action: DanielRichman edits
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[17:27] <Laurenceb> hi edmoore
[17:36] <DanielRichman> Anyone here done A-level chemistry?
[17:36] <KingJ> I know people that do
[17:36] <DanielRichman> It's not urgent, just got a question
[17:37] <KingJ> I can pass it onto them
[17:37] <DanielRichman> It's not _that_ important, seriously ;)
[17:37] <KingJ> Fine then! Reject my help! :P
[17:38] <DanielRichman> besides, it's not a serious chemistry question - I just need someone who understands entropy to clear up an 'argument' for me.
[17:42] <DanielRichman> be back later
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[17:43] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, ping
[17:44] <Fighter1405> jcoxon, pong
[17:45] <jcoxon> be careful powering the ft 790r
[17:45] <Fighter1405> 9v battery isn't a good idea?
[17:46] <gordonjcp> DanielRichman: I did higher chemistry, which is approximately equivalent to A-level, but I did that about 18 years ago ;-)
[17:46] <jcoxon> a wall mart is a good move
[17:46] <Fighter1405> wall mart?
[17:46] <Fighter1405> The shop?
[17:46] <jcoxon> oop
[17:46] <jcoxon> s
[17:47] <jcoxon> wall plug
[17:47] <Fighter1405> Ah right, are they anything special or just a 12v DC plug?
[17:47] <jcoxon> the socket at back is reversed
[17:47] <Fighter1405> I see
[17:48] <Fighter1405> I already plugged a 9v battery into that socket :p
[17:49] <jcoxon> sorry was on the phone
[17:49] <Fighter1405> np
[17:49] <jcoxon> yeah the dc socket at the back is reversed
[17:49] <jcoxon> so the barrel is +ve and the pin is negative
[17:49] <jcoxon> well at least on mine it is
[17:49] <Fighter1405> I just followed the wiring diagram in the manual
[17:49] <jcoxon> you really want to supply 12v
[17:50] <jcoxon> is this the ft790r?
[17:50] <jcoxon> or ft817?
[17:50] <Fighter1405> 790r
[17:50] <jcoxon> and did it power up?
[17:50] <Fighter1405> yup it did
[17:51] <jcoxon> okay good
[17:51] <jcoxon> well 12v is what you should really aim for
[17:51] <Fighter1405> a plug is worth getting then
[17:51] <jcoxon> in the long run yes
[17:51] <jcoxon> let me find the one i use
[17:52] <Fighter1405> thanks
[17:52] <jcoxon> in the manual what did is the socket reversed as i said (reversed to the convention that is)
[17:53] <Fighter1405> Looks to me like the pin is positive
[17:53] <Fighter1405> Let me check on the real one, hang on
[17:55] <Fighter1405> No wait, it's like you said
[17:55] <Fighter1405> The barrel is posiive
[17:55] <Fighter1405> *positive
[17:55] Action: Fighter1405 can't read
[17:55] <jcoxon> this should do: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=32754
[17:56] <jcoxon> it has interchangable plugs so you could get the right size and reverse it
[17:56] <Fighter1405> Great, does it come with the plugs?
[17:56] <jcoxon> yes
[17:56] <Fighter1405> Thanks :)
[17:57] <jcoxon> might be worth checking though -perhaps take the radio to maplin
[17:57] <Fighter1405> Hah, that would surprise them :p
[17:57] edmoore (n=ed@pomegranate.chu.cam.ac.uk) left irc:
[17:57] <jcoxon> well just to check the socket - don't let them talk to you about anything else - they might corrupt you!
[17:58] <Fighter1405> Got it
[17:58] <jcoxon> found a repeater yet?
[17:59] <Fighter1405> Nope :( I'm hoping the antenna isn't good enough
[17:59] <Fighter1405> Although I didn't try for long, didn't want to waste the whole 9v battery
[17:59] <jcoxon> use this site to find the nearest repeater freq
[17:59] <jcoxon> http://www.charlescoverley.co.uk/ham/repeaters.htm
[18:00] <Fighter1405> not all 70cm though
[18:00] <jcoxon> no thats true
[18:00] <jcoxon> most repeaters are though
[18:02] <Fighter1405> The one nearest to me is OUT: 1312 Mhz :(
[18:03] <jcoxon> pm your postcode
[18:03] stilldavid (n=dave@vpn-73-44.CSUChico.EDU) joined #highaltitude.
[18:03] <Fighter1405> Sent
[18:04] <jcoxon> GB3VH is probably your best bet
[18:04] <jcoxon> 433.325
[18:04] <Fighter1405> Yeah, that's the one I tried before I think :(
[18:05] Hiena (n=Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) joined #highaltitude.
[18:05] <DanielRichman> gordonjcp, how much do you know about entropy?
[18:05] <Fighter1405> I'll try again
[18:05] <jcoxon> who long is your wire antenna?
[18:05] <jcoxon> how*
[18:05] <Fighter1405> A
[18:06] <Fighter1405> *At a visual guess about 60cm
[18:06] <jcoxon> you want one 16cm long
[18:06] <Fighter1405> Oh right
[18:06] <Fighter1405> And is it safe to try again with the 9v battery?
[18:06] <jcoxon> is that just a normal 9v battery
[18:07] <jcoxon> like in smoke alarms?
[18:07] <gordonjcp> DanielRichman: a wee bit, why?
[18:07] <Fighter1405> yeah, exactly
[18:07] <jcoxon> hmmmm you'll strain that battery quite a bit
[18:08] <Fighter1405> I'm sure
[18:08] <jcoxon> got anything else?
[18:08] AlexBreton (n=Alexande@client-86-25-181-65.bkl-bng-012.adsl.virginmedia.net) left irc:
[18:09] <Fighter1405> Could probably find some AAs somewhere, but no holder
[18:09] <DanielRichman> gordonjcp, One of my christian friends thinks that the whole deal with Entropy, and order/disorder or compication/uncompicated deal means that the universe cannot go from an uncomplicated state to a complicated state without an external influence, and therefore this is an argument for God existing. I think he's got the wrong end of the stick. Any ideas?
[18:10] <jcoxon> i don't think the 9v is a good idea
[18:10] <Fighter1405> Nevermind then, I might just order some Cs from ebay
[18:11] <gordonjcp> DanielRichman: yes, he's got the wrong end of the stick
[18:11] <Fighter1405> Could get a proper antenna whilst I'm there :p
[18:11] <gordonjcp> the universe is constantly in a state of going from complex to less complex
[18:11] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, i recommend a plug for it - as you'll eat Cs relatively quickly
[18:11] <Fighter1405> complex to less complex gordonjcp?
[18:12] <Fighter1405> ok, I'll do that then
[18:12] <jcoxon> while you are testing on the desk
[18:12] <gordonjcp> Fighter1405: yes
[18:12] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, bbl
[18:12] <Fighter1405> And you don't think a 9v plug would wpr
[18:12] <Fighter1405> Ah
[18:12] <Fighter1405> Cya later :)
[18:12] <DanielRichman> gordonjcp, that makes things even better. I thought that he was trying to apply a theory/law to something that it couldn't be applied to (like trying to use Ohm's to work out speed). But that's even better
[18:12] <Fighter1405> ^ Ignore that
[18:12] <gordonjcp> Fighter1405: femtoseconds after the big bang the universe and all it contained was so energetic that matter could not form
[18:13] <gordonjcp> by the time it had cooled down for a few minutes, it had started to stick together and clump up into small energetic particles
[18:13] <Fighter1405> Isn't the idea of entropy that it goes from less complex to more complex though?
[18:13] <gordonjcp> Fighter1405: no
[18:13] <Fighter1405> The common analogy of entropy is an egg breaking
[18:14] <gordonjcp> as entropy increases, everything smooths out
[18:14] <sbasuita> Need to define complexity to aid this discussion
[18:14] <gordonjcp> Fighter1405: a better analogy of entropy would be drying yourself off with a towel
[18:14] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, don't worry, i've been there. Told him that order/complexity was an opinion ;)
[18:14] <gordonjcp> Fighter1405: eventually you and the towel are equally wet
[18:14] <gordonjcp> which simplifies things
[18:15] <gordonjcp> Fighter1405: a mug of boiling water with a handful of icecubes is a complex state
[18:15] <gordonjcp> ten minutes later you've got a mug of warmish water, much simpler
[18:15] <Fighter1405> hmm, I see
[18:15] <DanielRichman> and simplification is an increase in entropy
[18:15] <gordonjcp> however a hot mug in a cool kitchen is complex
[18:15] <DanielRichman> and 2nd law of thermodynamics says that entropy is always increasing (net).
[18:15] <gordonjcp> so half an hour later, a cool mug in a slightly warmer kitchen is simpler
[18:16] <Fighter1405> So the people that told me entropy was like an egg breaking or like white and black counters mixing when shaken were completely wrong?
[18:16] <gordonjcp> no, that's correct
[18:17] <gordonjcp> Fighter1405: a pile of white and a pile of black counters is a complex state
[18:17] <Fighter1405> Sure it is simpler when the egg is whole, rather than when it is broken?
[18:17] <gordonjcp> Fighter1405: well, it's more homogenous when it's broken
[18:17] <Fighter1405> I see (I think), thanks
[18:23] AlexBreton (n=Alexande@client-86-25-181-65.bkl-bng-012.adsl.virginmedia.net) joined #highaltitude.
[18:24] <AlexBreton> greetings
[18:24] <sbasuita> salutations
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[18:42] <jcoxon> hey guys,
[18:42] <jcoxon> here is a question...
[18:42] <jcoxon> if we were to place a valve in the neck of the balloon
[18:43] <jcoxon> how could we calculate the rate of helium loss?
[18:43] <AlexBreton> errrrm
[18:43] <DanielRichman> Well haven't you gotta consider pressure inside/out (which changes as it rises, which depends on the amount of filling, which affects starting pressure :X) and the size of the hole?
[18:44] <DanielRichman> there must be some equations to do it
[18:44] <AlexBreton> http://www.pipeflowcalculations.com/
[18:44] <jcoxon> there are quite a few variables
[18:44] <DanielRichman> Hmm
[18:44] edmoore (n=ed@pomegranate.chu.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[18:44] <DanielRichman> be back later.
[18:44] <jcoxon> but latex expands
[18:44] <jcoxon> so reduces the pressure difference
[18:44] <AlexBreton> would you be able to do it if you knew pressure before and after?
[18:44] <AlexBreton> that's the issue
[18:44] <AlexBreton> bloody flexible latex
[18:45] <jcoxon> i'm wondering could we calculate it indirectly by launching a balloon with a valve and looking at the decrease in ascent rate
[18:46] <AlexBreton> http://www.pipeflowcalculations.com/airflow/theory.htm
[18:46] <AlexBreton> hmmm
[18:46] <jcoxon> its a tough oe
[18:46] <jcoxon> one*
[18:46] <AlexBreton> you could calculate pressure at the start
[18:47] <AlexBreton> and maybe do some controlled tests on the ground to see how it contracts
[18:47] <jcoxon> i'm wonderinf is the pressure difference nearly zero as the latex expands to compensate
[18:47] <jcoxon> if you have a small hole in the balloon it doesn't rapidly deflate
[18:47] <jcoxon> edmoore and I have seen this
[18:49] <jcoxon> interesting, http://www.chem.hawaii.edu/uham/lift.html suggests 5mmHg of backpressure from the latex
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[18:53] <Fighter1405> jcoxon: are you from cambridge too?
[18:54] <jcoxon> Fighter1405, i was :-)
[18:54] <jcoxon> graduated 2 years a go
[18:54] <Fighter1405> Ah, nice :)
[18:54] <jcoxon> now at King's College London
[18:54] <Fighter1405> Doing a post-grad?
[18:55] <jcoxon> medic - so clinical school
[18:55] <Fighter1405> I see, good luck then :)
[18:55] Action: Fighter1405 could never be a medic
[18:55] <jcoxon> thanks
[18:56] <Fighter1405> Do you reckon it would be possible for me to watch a launch at cambridge before trying to do my own?
[18:57] <jcoxon> of course
[18:57] <jcoxon> just a matter of waiting for one to come along
[18:57] <Fighter1405> Yeah, not in a rush anyway. Just would be useful experience
[18:57] <jcoxon> its a very good idea
[18:58] Nick change: edmoore -> edmoore|bbiab
[18:58] <Fighter1405> Do launches go on through winter?
[18:58] <jcoxon> yes
[18:58] <jcoxon> though its nicer in the summer :-)
[18:59] <Fighter1405> I'm sure, just doubt I'll be ready before october ish
[18:59] <jcoxon> that no problem
[19:00] <Fighter1405> Want to make sure it is all ready and so on :)
[19:00] <jcoxon> do lots of testing
[19:01] <Fighter1405> I will do
[19:02] <stilldavid> jcoxon: can you help with some radio stuff when you have a minute? I'm trying to figure out a TX2H-433-64
[19:02] <jcoxon> stilldavid, yup
[19:02] <jcoxon> i'm free for 30mins
[19:03] <stilldavid> unfortunately it's not in front of me (11am here, at work) but just theory I guess.
[19:03] <stilldavid> from what I understand of the datasheet, I can just throw serial data at it, but I'm curious what it does with it and how I can decode it.
[19:04] <stilldavid> it's functionally identical to the TX2: http://www.radiometrix.com/files/additional/TX2RX2.pdf
[19:04] <SpeedEvil> do you have logs?
[19:04] <SpeedEvil> I explained this in detail a couple of days ago
[19:04] <jcoxon> stilldavid, yes i think it does jus accept serial data
[19:04] <stilldavid> SpeedEvil: does zeus still log?
[19:04] <jcoxon> stilldavid, do you have the reciever
[19:04] <jcoxon> stilldavid, yes - http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/zeusbot/
[19:05] <stilldavid> no, I don't :( I can hear data on my radio, but no idea how to decode it.
[19:05] <stilldavid> if fldigi or otherwise
[19:05] <SpeedEvil> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/zeusbot/highaltitude.log.20090616
[19:05] <SpeedEvil> beginning 13:39
[19:06] <stilldavid> it "sounds" like the data I get from http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8946
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> 13:28 rather
[19:06] <stilldavid> SpeedEvil: thanks!
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[19:16] <AlexBreton> DanielRichman, doing coursework reseacrh?
[19:19] <jcoxon> bbl
[19:19] jcoxon (n=jcoxon@217.39.7.252) left irc: "Leaving"
[19:28] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, correct
[19:50] GeekShado_ (n=Antoine@146.226.192-77.rev.gaoland.net) left irc: Connection timed out
[19:50] <AlexBreton> haha
[19:51] <AlexBreton> finished that :P
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[20:04] <AlexBreton> sbasuita
[20:04] <AlexBreton> choon of the century: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN4cLlIKnoA
[20:05] Action: SpeedEvil puts a banging donk on it.
[20:07] <AlexBreton> donk?
[20:09] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckMvj1piK58
[20:09] <SpeedEvil> AlexBreton:
[20:10] <AlexBreton> mm
[20:15] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, <3
[20:16] <AlexBreton> w00t?
[20:16] <Laurenceb> mahaha
[20:16] <AlexBreton> <3?
[20:16] Action: Laurenceb has 2D orbital sim working
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> :)
[20:16] Action: SpeedEvil passes Laurenceb a harmonic gravity gradient model.
[20:17] <Laurenceb> thing is you have to let the "tube rocket" coast for ~30 seconds after first stage burout
[20:17] <Laurenceb> so it can get up to orbital height
[20:17] <SpeedEvil> You can 'wiggle' a little
[20:17] <Laurenceb> unless you can do circularization burns
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> but that costs delta-v
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> and you really want to throttle down at least
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[20:19] <Laurenceb> its in a 10000Km to 200km elliptical orbit
[20:20] <SpeedEvil> that can be good orbital life-wise
[20:20] <SpeedEvil> in some ways
[20:20] <SpeedEvil> are you including drag?
[20:21] <Laurenceb> nope
[20:21] <Laurenceb> 30KM balloon launch
[20:21] <Laurenceb> need to optimise the pointing more
[20:21] Action: SpeedEvil passes Laurenceb some dice.
[20:24] <Fighter1405> Has anyone ever sent up a phone with it's own built in GPS module? (They're expensive though :( )
[20:24] <SpeedEvil> and you don't typically know how it will behave at high altitude
[20:25] <Fighter1405> No, but it should work on landing
[20:29] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton,
[20:29] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil,
[20:29] <DanielRichman> *** whooops, sorry SpeedEvil
[20:29] <DanielRichman> mean't to tab-complete sbasuita
[20:31] <DanielRichman> **meant
[20:31] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, I asked about your BIology mark
[20:33] <AlexBreton> where?
[20:33] <AlexBreton> and what about it?
[20:33] <AlexBreton> you just said my name
[20:35] Nick change: edmoore|bbiab -> edmoore
[20:37] <Laurenceb> ok, got 220Km to 3000Km
[20:37] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: that with cosat
[20:37] <SpeedEvil> coast
[20:37] <Laurenceb> theres about a minute before stage 2 fires after stage 1
[20:38] <Laurenceb> and about another 50 seconds after stage 2 burnout
[20:38] <SpeedEvil> if you have no circ burn, you need to thrust 'down' before burnout
[20:38] <Laurenceb> each stage is 35 seconds
[20:38] <SpeedEvil> (to equalise)
[20:38] <Laurenceb> yeah
[20:38] <Laurenceb> bbl
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> Or accellerate while letting gravity kill your vertical vector
[20:39] <Fighter1405> SpeedEvil: I meant something like this as a back up: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Mini-Real-Time-GSM-GPRS-GPS-Tracker-Tracking-Device_W0QQitemZ270408272056QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGPS_Devices?hash=item3ef596c8b8&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1690|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50
[20:43] <SpeedEvil> interesting
[20:45] <edmoore> fergusnoble: ping
[20:47] <Fighter1405> Wooh, Radiometrix are giving me a free radio :)
[20:47] <Fighter1405> Only 20 emails or so :p
[20:47] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, You there?
[20:47] <AlexBreton> yeah
[20:47] <DanielRichman> Basically she said you didn't do as well as you should have
[20:47] <DanielRichman> sorry
[20:48] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, any news
[20:48] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, you got 35 biology coursework
[20:48] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, is that good/
[20:48] <DanielRichman> She wouldn't tell me Breton's cause it's so bad
[20:48] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, yeah, it's great
[20:48] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, what is the max?
[20:48] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, 36
[20:48] <sbasuita> fair
[20:48] <sbasuita> :D
[20:49] <DanielRichman> She said that Breton didn't do as well as he should have, and refused to comment further.
[20:49] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, doing chemistry plan now.
[20:49] <DanielRichman> did you do economic, social, environmental factors?
[20:49] <DanielRichman> how about "how it has affected technology"
[20:50] <DanielRichman> what about commenting on the history of the whole thing
[20:50] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, very important to cover those
[20:50] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, longshaft said you had to do environmental esp
[20:50] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, naturally. Done economic and environmental
[20:50] <DanielRichman> (v. expensive to make (particle accelerator or uranium), decays super fast => bad for env.)
[20:50] <DanielRichman> ((why are you calling him longshaft?)
[20:51] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, it's like longstaff but with more humour
[20:51] <AlexBreton> for hahaz
[20:51] <AlexBreton> DanielRichman, stop trolling me about my biology coursework please ;-)
[20:52] <AlexBreton> I have detectors to filter that sort of crap
[20:52] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, I will troll you to extinction in return for the english beef I received
[20:52] <DanielRichman> but not today, I am busy.
[20:52] <sbasuita> english?
[20:52] <DanielRichman> Lul, if you type the first four words of question1 into google it autocompletes.
[20:52] <AlexBreton> you just admitted you were talking crap
[20:52] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, remember when we laughed at him for his english coursework?
[20:53] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, not really. Must have been pretty trivial
[20:53] <AlexBreton> ah well
[20:53] <AlexBreton> not an A*, that's all
[20:53] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, remember how much each english piece of coursework was worth in the overall GCSE?
[20:53] <DanielRichman> how about the biology?
[20:53] <AlexBreton> yeah but your allegations over my biology mark are false
[20:54] <AlexBreton> whereas we know the facts over the englisj
[20:54] <AlexBreton> english* dammit
[20:54] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, when do you next have biology?
[20:54] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, we have tomorrow
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> Anyway - this doesn't matter - as the exams are getting easier :)
[20:54] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, but i'm missing to go see the cricket
[20:54] <sbasuita> : )
[20:54] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, fair point ;)
[20:55] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, no worries, I'll make sure that AlexBreton is double-abused for the poor mark he discovers, since you will be absent
[20:55] <AlexBreton> Mrs P would've commented on any bad coursework in my profile
[20:55] <AlexBreton> which she didn't
[20:55] <AlexBreton> now sto
[20:55] <AlexBreton> p
[20:55] <AlexBreton> what was the 'poor mark'?
[20:55] <DanielRichman> Oh yeah, bout that, do we have to do an overall comment? have you done yours yet?
[20:55] <AlexBreton> answer the question^
[20:55] <DanielRichman> she refused to say
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> (not that I believe that - I believe that the exams/teaching have been altered to a point where it's easier to get a more consistent mark out of the pupils - this does not mean either that the exams are easier - or that it's better teaching)
[20:56] <AlexBreton> ahhh
[20:56] <AlexBreton> DanielRichman sure
[20:57] <AlexBreton> stop talking crap ;-)
[20:57] <AlexBreton> when I spoke to her she said it was OK ;-)
[20:57] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, which periods do you have biology tomorrow?
[20:57] Action: DanielRichman reads his end of year report
[20:57] <AlexBreton> like i know
[20:57] <AlexBreton> 3-4 I think
[20:58] <DanielRichman> obviosly not. 3-4 isn't a science week a thursday
[20:58] <DanielRichman> you either have it 1-2 or 5-6
[20:58] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, did you include any pictures in your chemistry report?
[20:59] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, I attached an oil painting of Marguerite Perey
[21:00] <AlexBreton> I had an engraving of Niels Bohr
[21:00] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, anything else?
[21:00] <DanielRichman> so no science-pictures, more fill-up-the-space,with-a-face pictures?
[21:00] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, also a paper pop-out model of a lithium atom
[21:00] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, no way. Really?
[21:00] <DanielRichman> pop out?
[21:01] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, yeh, got bored doing research at home
[21:01] <sbasuita> ; P
[21:01] <DanielRichman> rofl :D
[21:01] <AlexBreton> oh yeah
[21:01] <DanielRichman> brb
[21:01] <AlexBreton> looked hilarious
[21:01] <DanielRichman> hahaha; that's brilliant
[21:01] <DanielRichman> got any photos of it?
[21:01] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, no, i just handed it in
[21:01] <DanielRichman> (brb for real)
[21:03] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, is there just 1 bio coursework?
[21:03] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, dunno
[21:06] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, the essay and can-do tasks =)
[21:07] <AlexBreton> 'The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.' - Niels Bohr
[21:07] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, I swear that the can-do tasks have been discarded
[21:08] <AlexBreton> nope
[21:08] <AlexBreton> we did some last year
[21:09] <sbasuita> I remember failing one because my poster didn't include use of ICT
[21:09] <AlexBreton> lol yeah
[21:09] <AlexBreton> what a load of old shit
[21:09] Action: sbasuita fires up blender for some cloth simulations
[21:10] <DanielRichman> Oooh
[21:10] <DanielRichman> tastey
[21:12] Action: DanielRichman declares the plum pudding model irrelevant & discards
[21:14] <AlexBreton> DanielRichman, feeling the strain?
[21:14] <AlexBreton> better not get distarcted
[21:14] <AlexBreton> distracted, DanielRichman
[21:14] <DanielRichman> erm. Nah, I'm fine
[21:14] Action: DanielRichman puts music on
[21:14] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, what you listening to?
[21:15] Action: DanielRichman clicks shuffle button, hits forwards a few times, and declines to shed light on his personal taste
[21:16] <DanielRichman> ((I didn't know I had this shit in my library; delete; move on))
[21:16] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, so, what you listening to?
[21:17] <DanielRichman> no idea.
[21:18] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, rotate your eyeballs and have a look
[21:18] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, how many sources did you have?
[21:18] <DanielRichman> I'm on 7
[21:18] <DanielRichman> I think I'm doing it wrong
[21:18] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, i had 15 when i was finished
[21:18] Action: DanielRichman is doing it right
[21:20] <AlexBreton> yeah I had 16 too
[21:20] <DanielRichman> You don't need that many
[21:21] <AlexBreton> trust me
[21:21] <AlexBreton> longshaft said 20 is the limit
[21:24] <DanielRichman> ROfl. Just found a photo of Bohr
[21:24] <DanielRichman> he's a badman
[21:24] <DanielRichman> http://mooni.fccj.org/~ethall/quantum/bohrx.jpg
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[21:25] <AlexBreton> I had him on my essay
[21:25] <AlexBreton> considered Rutherford as well
[21:26] <DanielRichman> heh
[21:28] <DanielRichman> Bohr badass mode has been initiated. Time to crack on with charge density and co
[21:28] <DanielRichman> energy levels
[21:28] <DanielRichman> ionisation! bewm!
[21:29] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, calm down
[21:29] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, sbasuita, aparantly Chemistry-Wheeler messed up the time you had available for your coursework?
[21:29] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, yeh
[21:30] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, but you're missing tomorrow so you don't get the lunchtime? I hope you finished your work
[21:30] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, he gave us extra time
[21:30] <DanielRichman> ((skiver))
[21:30] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, finished early
[21:30] <DanielRichman> nice.
[21:30] <AlexBreton> same here
[21:30] <AlexBreton> no-one really needed the extra time
[21:30] <DanielRichman> fair enough
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[21:31] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, sbasuita, what effects on technology did you mention?
[21:32] <AlexBreton> erm, caesium is used in atomic clocks
[21:33] <DanielRichman> fair but how is that relevant?
[21:33] <DanielRichman> oh wait, Could mention the Bohr light emissions stuff
[21:36] <AlexBreton> dude
[21:36] <AlexBreton> you can't shove an element in a precision clock without understanding it's reactions ;-)
[21:37] <DanielRichman> Don't worry, source no. 8 just got laid down with the technology point.
[21:46] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, scientific vocab?
[21:47] <fergusnoble> edmoore: pong
[21:47] <DanielRichman> to be fair, shielding atomic radius, stacking, all that, sould be good
[21:52] <AlexBreton> mmm
[21:52] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, citations just the URL?
[21:52] <AlexBreton> yeah sure
[21:55] <edmoore> fergusnoble: yo
[21:55] <edmoore> have you lost your phone
[21:55] <fergusnoble> edmoore: hehe yeah the dummer from florence and the machine has it
[21:55] <edmoore> ah right. I got a call from him
[21:55] <edmoore> sounding stoned
[21:56] <edmoore> wondering how much you would pay to get it back
[21:56] <fergusnoble> yeah he thought it would be funny to ring random people from my phone book saying that
[21:56] <fergusnoble> apparently
[21:56] <fergusnoble> hes posting it up to me
[21:56] <edmoore> a generous soul
[21:56] <edmoore> also, we got some RAeS cahuna
[21:56] <edmoore> which is nice
[21:57] <fergusnoble> probably a bit of a nob but at least im getting it back
[21:57] <fergusnoble> yeah thats awesome
[21:57] <edmoore> more nibbles!!!
[21:58] <fergusnoble> hehe, do we have to go down there again?
[21:58] <edmoore> dunno yet, need to official accept the award
[21:58] <fergusnoble> awesome
[21:58] <edmoore> on the list for 2morrow
[21:59] <fergusnoble> cool
[21:59] <edmoore> along with parking fine, car insurance renewal, and answering about 32 emails
[21:59] <fergusnoble> ok, brb, need to find some food
[21:59] <edmoore> may be gone
[21:59] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, can't find a decent picture of the Bohr model anywhere
[22:00] <AlexBreton> just get a normal atom picture
[22:00] <AlexBreton> Atomic Energy Agency is good
[22:00] <DanielRichman> game over, got one
[22:00] <AlexBreton> you can talk about it's influence then
[22:00] <AlexBreton> stereotypical picture of an atom
[22:01] <DanielRichman> social impacts, anyone?
[22:01] <AlexBreton> what I just told you
[22:02] <DanielRichman> Exactly
[22:02] <AlexBreton> when you think 'atom' you think nucleus with shizzle going around it
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[22:06] <DanielRichman> gotta go now; AlexBreton, sbasuita, bye
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[22:17] <AlexBreton> cyall later
[22:17] AlexBreton (n=Alexande@client-86-25-181-65.bkl-bng-012.adsl.virginmedia.net) left irc:
[22:27] <sbasuita> night
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[23:01] Nick change: Fighter1405 -> Fighter|Sleep
[23:01] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: the need for delayes between stage firing favours pressurised tanks I hink
[23:02] <Laurenceb> you dont have to fire up pumps to get a bit of attitude control
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> or you can just accept you will spin a bit
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[00:00] --- Thu Jun 18 2009