highaltitude.log.20090616

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[00:18] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/52606
[00:27] <Laurenceb> hallam: if you made isp of 150 work, then you could use a steam rocket
[00:28] <hallam> you mean decomposing h2o2?
[00:30] <Laurenceb> no supercritical water
[00:32] <Laurenceb> its about 150 or so IIRC
[00:39] <Laurenceb> http://pastie.org/513227
[00:40] <Laurenceb> oh and http://htmlsandbox.com/
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[00:49] <Laurenceb> wb
[00:50] Action: SpeedEvil has bad DSL.
[00:50] <Laurenceb> good news, ~8mm diameter catalyst chambers should work for peroxide injection
[00:50] <SpeedEvil> where are you getting that from?
[00:51] <Laurenceb> http://www.smallsat.org/proceedings/12/ssc98/8/sscviii1.pdf
[00:51] <Laurenceb> and the injection section in Sutton
[00:51] <Laurenceb> for ~+-2 degree thrust vector
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> ah
[00:53] <Laurenceb> that should be enough for machining and ablation errors
[00:53] <Laurenceb> staging requires a bit more oomf
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[01:13] <fuzzylugnuts> Hi
[01:21] <fuzzylugnuts> allbattery has prismatic LiFePO4's : )
[01:23] <Laurenceb> nice
[01:23] <Laurenceb> hmm the solenoids are the killer in this design :-/
[01:24] <Laurenceb> even if you stick them in the kerosene so they get some cooling
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[01:45] <Laurenceb> http://www.sensortechnics.com/index.php?fid=300&fpar=YToxOntzOjQ6InBjaWQiO3M6MzoiMjg3Ijt9&isSSL=0&aps=0&blub=90d23423d23ec263ec69f55863dd6629
[01:46] <natrium42> cool
[01:46] <Laurenceb> too heavy :-/
[01:46] <natrium42> no you
[01:51] <hallam> overkill pressurewise?
[01:52] <hallam> ok night all
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[02:10] <Laurenceb> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=3996897
[02:10] <Laurenceb> oddly thatd work well
[02:16] <SpeedEvil> Weight seems optimistic :)
[02:17] <Laurenceb> 19 grams
[02:17] <Laurenceb> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=4926186 <- also that, but its a bit harder to mount
[02:17] <Laurenceb> - first one in the datasheet
[02:18] <Laurenceb> 24grams ~11N at 10% duty cycle
[02:18] <SpeedEvil> 16g seems unlikely
[02:18] <Laurenceb> yeah maybe
[02:18] <Laurenceb> 19 total
[02:19] <SpeedEvil> 2cm*2cm*2cm of copper = 8cc = what - 40g at least
[02:20] <Laurenceb> its not 100% copper
[02:21] <Laurenceb> by any means - circular windings and cicular wire
[02:21] <Laurenceb> with enamle
[02:21] <Laurenceb> (pi/4)^2*40 = 24 grams
[02:21] <SpeedEvil> that's 190g I make it - the first one
[02:22] <SpeedEvil> look at all the thick steel on the outside
[02:22] <Laurenceb> Weight 24,8 g
[02:23] <Laurenceb> 282340-033 Ø 19 X 13 mm
[02:23] <Laurenceb> you need about a 1mm aperture and 1mm stroke for it to work well
[02:24] <Laurenceb> so ~11newtons
[02:25] <Laurenceb> the chart on page 121 suggests it would work at 10% duty, but its be in kerosene and heatsunk onto aluminium
[02:26] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[02:26] <Laurenceb> youd never want to operate 100% anyway, hopefully 25% max
[02:27] <SpeedEvil> also - your holding power can typically be a fraction of the force to open
[02:30] <Laurenceb> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=4317526
[02:30] <Laurenceb> the chart on p121 shows force vrs distance
[02:31] <Laurenceb> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=4926186 <- p121
[02:49] <Laurenceb> the Saia-Burgess 0ECM  19 x 13 would certainly work
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[10:17] <mc-> SpeedEvil?
[10:19] <mc-> on your rocket design, I was thinking that by having the rocket nozzle at the CofG, then any thrust asymmetries will have a small effect.
[10:20] <mc-> and a small attitude control jet can be far away from the CofG, so it can correct any attitude errors.
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[13:01] <SpeedEvil> mc: it's laurencb's
[13:01] <SpeedEvil> oh
[13:27] <Futurity> Hi
[13:27] <Futurity> anyone here from the ballooning team?
[13:28] <Futurity> I was wondering why SSB is used compared with CW?
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> CW - you mwan morse?
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> mean
[13:37] <gordonjcp> do they use SSB?
[13:37] <gordonjcp> I thought they just used FSK
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> SSB is used as a reciever
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> as it basically can be used to recieve narrowband FM efficiently
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> The FM tranciever broadcasts 434.6521KHz for '1' and 434.6523KHz for '0'
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> FM transmitter
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> This is simple FSK
[13:38] <gordonjcp> yup
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> The SSB reciever is tuned to 434.650KHz
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> And it outtputs the above frequencies minus that tuning
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> so 2.1KHz, or 2.3KHz
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> Then it's passed to a computer to decode this
[13:40] <SpeedEvil> the advantage of this is that teh computer can ignore noise at 434.6524KHz - as it knows that no valid signal will be coming in at 2.4KHz
[13:41] <SpeedEvil> The advantage of this over a FM reciever is that the FM reciever will only pick up the 434.6524KHz signal - if it's a bit stronger - but the SSB+computer can totally ignore it - if it's not too much stronger
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[13:49] <Futurity> sorry, got called away. back now
[13:49] <Futurity> i see
[13:50] <Futurity> in some way its a bit like morse on CW
[13:50] <Futurity> but 1s and 0s on two different channels
[13:50] <Futurity> so parity almost going on
[13:50] <Futurity> i.e. each channel is exclusive
[13:50] <Futurity> of each other
[13:51] <SpeedEvil> yes
[13:51] <SpeedEvil> and it's an efficient use of transmitter power
[13:51] <SpeedEvil> for exmple turning on and off the transmitter just gives one tone - the other is just not there
[13:52] <SpeedEvil> with FSK, the other tone isn't just an absence of signal, it's another signal 'pulling' the other way
[13:53] <Futurity> i see
[13:54] <Futurity> so FSK uses FM to transmit on each frequency?
[13:54] <SpeedEvil> yes
[13:54] <Futurity> i mean couldI tune in to one of the signals using my FM only transceiver
[13:54] <SpeedEvil> umm - that may be misleading
[13:55] <Futurity> i would only get the 1s or 0s, not both of course
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> it uses a FM transmitter to transmit one of two frequencies in the 433MHz range seperated by 400Hz or so.
[13:56] <SpeedEvil> With a FM reciever it would have several issues - say a 9KHz wide FM - any signal in the 9KHz band that's stronger than the signal will cause the FM reciever to lock on that, and completely ignore the balloon
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> Also - your output voltage would basically be the raw RS232 format stream. And as the audio bandwidth doesn't typically go down to under 5Hz - you have to do DC restoration
[13:57] <Futurity> i see
[13:58] <Futurity> so when passing normal audio into an FM transmitter you are constantly moving the frequency around
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> yes
[13:58] <Futurity> where as for this mode the frequency is pushed and pulled between two fixed frequencies
[13:59] <SpeedEvil> over a 9, 75KHz, or whatever bandwidth - depending on the design of the FM system - broadcast FM uses 75KHZ forex
[13:59] <Futurity> so with an audio rFM reciever I'd perhaps here pops as the frequencies change, but no tones
[13:59] <SpeedEvil> Do you know what a RS232 signal looks like?
[14:00] <Futurity> hmm other than 1s and 0s with parity and a standard baud rate, i don't know it from seeing a diagram
[14:00] <Futurity> i know it's ground and +5 or +12v normally
[14:01] <SpeedEvil> you basically - given a FM reciever with no highpass filter - would recieve an exact copy of the signal going into the transmitter
[14:01] <SpeedEvil> But - in real life, that's capacitively coupled, so you lose all of the signal, but the edges
[14:05] <Futurity> i see
[14:06] <Futurity> and i wouldn't even see a rising and dropping edges? just pops
[14:06] <Futurity> and of course I'd get all the noise and very little signal
[14:07] <Futurity> ok, if i'm goign to do it myself, i think i either need to use normal FM that my transceiver can pickup
[14:07] <Futurity> or build my own CW transmitter and receiver
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> Well - Good SSB recievers that work well are 'only' a hundred quid, and you can resell for practically that anytime soon
[14:13] <Futurity> so they retain their value
[14:13] <Futurity> and would an ssb tranceiver also do CW?
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[14:15] <mc-> SpeedEvil, Laurence isn't about today. I know you had been looking into designs.
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> mc-: yeah - I've not generally been discussing 'my' actual design.
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> Just critiquing laurencb's recently.
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> For reference, it's a stage with 1 unit mass payload or recovery chute, 4 unit masses the rest. H2O2/kerosene, regeneratively cooled. Each stage can fly alone and be recovered on the chute multiple times if desired.
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> Then be stcked. Regeneratively cooled - with vectoring done by vanes in the exhaust.
[14:27] <mc-> I agree with you, you need to stay subsonic for at least 10-20km
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> For small - sub-few-ton launchers anyway
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> 4 stages at least to orbit.
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> 3 if everything works just right
[14:28] <mc-> I was thinking that very small thrust motors can be used, if the main motor is at the CofG
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> 6 gets you to the moon! :)
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> for attitude conttrol?
[14:29] <mc-> yes
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> the attitude control is exactly as efficient if it's at the bottom or the top
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> And the motor at the CofG doesn't actually make it stabler.
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum_Rocket_Fallacy
[14:30] <mc-> with motor at CofG, small attitude thrusters can be used to keep the main motor in the right direction.
[14:30] <mc-> I know the pendulum fallacy
[14:31] <mc-> the attitude thrusters are far away from the CofG
[14:32] <SpeedEvil> why are you putting the motor at the centre of gravity?
[14:32] <mc-> because any main motor asymetries have a small effect on the attitude
[14:32] <mc-> and it's easy to correct with a small attitude thruster
[14:34] <mc-> only problem is to keep the nozzle at the CofG
[14:36] <SpeedEvil> Your argument is that if it's not at teh CofG, assymetries impart a torque that you have to correct, or it disrupts the thrust vector. If it's at the CofG, you merely fly crab-wise a bit
[14:36] <mc-> yes, exactly
[14:36] <mc-> is my logic correct?
[14:36] <SpeedEvil> For the first stages, this is largely irrelevant.
[14:37] <SpeedEvil> As you've got lots of control authority from differential throttling
[14:37] <mc-> it's for the last stage, where you want to be as light as possible
[14:37] <SpeedEvil> Doesn't spinning slightly remove most of those problems
[14:39] <mc-> I guess spinning would help, and is nice and simple. Why don't people do that more often with amateur rockets?
[14:40] <SpeedEvil> worries about dynamics I guess
[14:41] <SpeedEvil> One _very_ simple option I was considering had one, and only one motor for attitude.
[14:41] <mc-> twist and steer?
[14:41] <mc-> it was used on the bloodhound missle
[14:41] <SpeedEvil> A vane dipped into the exhaust at the bottom, which rotated continually if you did not want any vector
[14:41] <SpeedEvil> And paused if you did.
[14:44] <mc-> seems like it would work, but difficult to test
[14:44] <SpeedEvil> Why?
[14:45] <SpeedEvil> test stand + load-cells
[14:45] <mc-> ok, not too difficult
[14:46] <mc-> or have the rocket spin, and briefly dip the vane into the exhaust during the rotation?
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> that too
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> then youneed to actively control spin though
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> or hope
[14:49] <mc-> should be easy to get it started spinning, but need to make sure it does go too fast.
[14:49] <mc-> *does not
[15:00] <mc-> if it has a fin slightly canted to induce spin, I think the rpm is proportional to the forward speed.
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> You're assuming there is air though
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> also that hypersonic aerodynamics is simple and easy to understand.
[15:02] <mc-> tru
[15:02] <mc-> true
[15:02] <SpeedEvil> for the final stage, there won't be air
[15:19] <mc-> the main motor at CG might also work for the lunar lander challenge competition
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[16:24] <AlexBreton> yo
[16:25] <sbasuita> hi AlexBreton
[16:29] <natrium42> hello AlexBreton & sbasuita
[16:29] <AlexBreton> hi there
[16:29] <sbasuita> natrium42, hello
[16:29] <sbasuita> mmm.... chocolate eclair
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[17:37] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, not sure how much depth we need to go into when we explain the bohr model tomorrow....
[17:38] <AlexBreton> go into lots
[17:38] <AlexBreton> speaking of which, I need to do the research
[17:38] <SpeedEvil> bohring.
[17:38] <AlexBreton> issue being that I can't be bothered
[17:38] <AlexBreton> indeed bohring
[17:39] <SpeedEvil> wikipedia++
[17:39] <AlexBreton> argh
[17:39] <AlexBreton> sbasuita
[17:39] <AlexBreton> broadband tax
[17:39] <sbasuita> huh?
[17:39] <AlexBreton> to pay for 'superfast broadband'
[17:39] <AlexBreton> of 2Mbps
[17:39] <AlexBreton> what jokers
[17:39] <sbasuita> say what?
[17:40] <AlexBreton> we will have to pay a tax on internet
[17:40] <AlexBreton> £6 a year
[17:40] <KingJ> 50p per month
[17:40] <sbasuita> really?
[17:40] <AlexBreton> yep
[17:40] <KingJ> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/16/fibre_levy/
[17:40] <AlexBreton> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jun/16/digital-britain-broadband-tax
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[17:48] Nick change: rjharrison_work -> rjharrison
[17:48] <rjharrison> hi all
[17:49] <rjharrison> fergusnoble: Any news of the last payload being washed up?
[17:49] <fergusnoble> rjharrison: nope not yet :(
[17:49] <rjharrison> Oh well I'll keep my fingers crossed
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[18:14] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, finished my notes then
[18:14] <AlexBreton> haven't started
[18:14] <sbasuita> hah
[18:14] <AlexBreton> bored
[18:15] <AlexBreton> why can't we just do this next year
[18:15] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, read some quantum mechanics to get your warmed up
[18:15] <sbasuita> probably overkill for gcse
[18:15] <sbasuita> ; )
[18:16] <AlexBreton> 2 more weeks left
[18:16] <AlexBreton> and this one
[18:16] <AlexBreton> 2.5
[18:16] <AlexBreton> then it's hums
[18:16] <AlexBreton> and then trip
[18:17] <sbasuita> : )
[18:17] <AlexBreton> jesus
[18:18] Action: sbasuita goes downstairs to print references
[18:18] <sbasuita> got three sites, split into nine pages of reference ;)
[18:19] <AlexBreton> talking to the emacs psychiatrist
[18:21] <AlexBreton> Earlier you said you felt depressed?
[18:21] <AlexBreton> yes
[18:21] <AlexBreton> Yes, hmmm... so, are you sure that this is so?
[18:21] <AlexBreton> very sure
[18:21] <AlexBreton> Maybe your plans have something to do with this.
[18:21] <AlexBreton> perhaps, though I have nothing planned except work
[18:21] <AlexBreton> Can you elaborate on that?
[18:21] <AlexBreton> I need to do some work, but I am depressed so I can't start it
[18:21] <AlexBreton> Do you really think you might want to do this work but you?
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> Do you mean eliza?
[18:22] <AlexBreton> it's the 'doctor'
[18:22] <AlexBreton> psychiatrist
[18:25] <DanielRichman> I think he means eliza
[18:25] <DanielRichman> emacs is a text editor, no?
[18:25] <sbasuita> No, emacs has a psychiatrist
[18:25] <DanielRichman> :o
[18:25] <AlexBreton> yes
[18:25] <AlexBreton> it has tetris
[18:26] <AlexBreton> gonna play some
[18:26] <sbasuita> Actually, it appears that the emacs doctor might be an implementation of ELIZA
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: how does that make you feel?
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[18:27] Action: sbasuita hands SpeedEvil the 'Funniest Person in #ha' award
[18:27] Action: sbasuita goes downstairs to print references (actually this time)
[18:31] <AlexBreton> got myself some cheese
[18:31] <AlexBreton> nothing like cheese for motivation
[18:33] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:33] <DanielRichman> hello
[18:35] <jcoxon> hey DanielRichman
[18:37] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, what sort?
[18:37] <sbasuita> evening jcoxon
[18:39] <jcoxon> hey sbasuita
[18:39] <jcoxon> anyone planning any launches soon?
[18:40] <AlexBreton> we are as soon as Paypal starts working
[18:40] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, what's your source on francium?
[18:41] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, webelements
[18:41] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, they have a brief overview
[18:41] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, it's all you need
[18:41] <AlexBreton> wiki =)
[18:41] <sbasuita> ?
[18:42] <AlexBreton> wikipedia has loads more stuff
[18:48] <AlexBreton> OK starsting
[18:49] <AlexBreton> starting*
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[19:01] Action: jcoxon thinks the wikipedia for MOSFETS is a little bit to complicated -> off to simple.wikipedia
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[19:07] <Laurenceb> hi
[19:10] <jcoxon> hey Laurenceb
[19:11] <jcoxon> cheap avr programmer: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9231
[19:12] <Laurenceb> neat, thanks
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[19:12] <jcoxon> hey RocketBoy
[19:15] <RocketBoy> yo jcoxon - anything new - like any upcomming flights?
[19:16] <jcoxon> hey RocketBoy
[19:17] <jcoxon> nothing right now, have exams soon
[19:17] <jcoxon> but of course payload planning inbetween revision
[19:17] <jcoxon> finish on 8th June
[19:17] <jcoxon> so should be free to launch then
[19:19] <jcoxon> you?
[19:20] <AlexBreton> sbasuita
[19:20] <AlexBreton> the melting point of francium is 27 degrees
[19:20] <AlexBreton> but if you continue the curve on the graph you don't get that
[19:21] <AlexBreton> what to do?
[19:22] <Laurenceb> have you been melting my francium?
[19:23] <Laurenceb> you naughty
[19:23] <AlexBreton> lol
[19:23] <AlexBreton> hear it works well with chicken
[19:23] <Laurenceb> to be franc I dont mind
[19:24] <AlexBreton> *shrug* of the gallic variety ;-)
[19:28] <RocketBoy> joxon: yep I may have somthing soon - more of the same XABEN7/8 stuff
[19:31] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, my graph is about 22
[19:31] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, so close enough
[19:32] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, we don't plot it on the graph
[19:32] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, but yeah, you can't really melt or boil francium, cause you can't get enough on it
[19:32] <AlexBreton> just write it in the thing
[19:32] <sbasuita> s/on/of
[19:32] <sbasuita> mmm
[19:32] <AlexBreton> explain
[19:33] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, what more?
[19:35] <AlexBreton> s/on/of
[19:35] <AlexBreton> do illuminate me as to what that means
[19:37] <sbasuita> substitute 'on' for 'of'
[19:37] <kleinjt_> sed: -e expression #1, char 7: unterminated `s' command
[19:37] <kleinjt_> you forgot the final /
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[19:39] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, got a badass chemistry textbook
[19:39] <AlexBreton> got the datahz
[19:39] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, oh?
[19:39] <AlexBreton> american one
[19:39] <sbasuita> kleinjt_, omitted for swift typing
[19:39] <AlexBreton> hence 'cesium'
[19:39] <sbasuita> ; )
[19:39] <sbasuita> right
[19:39] <AlexBreton> and 'aluminum'
[19:39] <AlexBreton> whatever they are ;-)
[19:40] <AlexBreton> some element that is only found in Colorado
[19:42] <AlexBreton> holy momma!
[19:42] <AlexBreton> just found a 400g Toblerone!
[19:45] <epictetus> how old?
[19:45] <epictetus> toblerone from the 1970s = not yummy
[19:45] <AlexBreton> new =)
[19:45] <Fighter1405> Hey all
[19:45] <AlexBreton> http://alienproject.wordpress.com/
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[19:46] <Fighter1405> Camera is here :D
[19:47] <Laurenceb> http://riotclitshave.com/2009.06/science_poster.jpg
[19:49] <AlexBreton> looks very scientific
[19:49] <AlexBreton> ;-)
[19:54] <AlexBreton> sbasuita
[19:54] <AlexBreton> for #3 on the chemistry
[19:54] <AlexBreton> did you reference your descriptions of the reactions of the alkali metals?
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[20:00] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, i'm not doing a description of each one
[20:00] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, just a general description of the group
[20:01] <AlexBreton> ye sure
[20:01] <AlexBreton> even so
[20:01] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, it is referenced
[20:01] <AlexBreton> do you have to say: 'the group 1 metals react violently with water (2)'
[20:01] <AlexBreton> for example?
[20:01] <AlexBreton> OK
[20:04] <sbasuita> Yay
[20:05] <sbasuita> Ubuntu is now printing over samba
[20:05] <AlexBreton> *snore* this sort of **** belongs on twitter!
[20:06] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, you do know what samba is, right?
[20:07] <natrium42> jcoxon, jcoxon, jcoxon
[20:07] <natrium42> i made him out of clay
[20:07] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, no
[20:07] <AlexBreton> tbh I don't wanna know :P
[20:07] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, fair
[20:07] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, we shouldn't have to know
[20:07] <AlexBreton> indeed
[20:07] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, but the nature of computing is a broken one
[20:07] <AlexBreton> broken nature?
[20:08] <AlexBreton> moving on to some hench description of trends
[20:08] <AlexBreton> Q4
[20:11] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, have you had to bring up ionisation energies at any point?
[20:12] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, mention 'first ionisation energy' for cookies
[20:12] <AlexBreton> first?
[20:13] <AlexBreton> ah yes I see
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[20:17] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, what's the beef on the melting/boiling points?
[20:18] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, what's the game?
[20:18] <DanielRichman> sorry?
[20:20] <AlexBreton> lol
[20:21] <AlexBreton> hahahahahahaha
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[20:21] <AlexBreton> sbasuita loading his literary bow and arrow
[20:21] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, science hasn't brought you far has it?
[20:24] <AlexBreton> my textbook cleared me up
[20:24] <AlexBreton> not the OCR one obviously
[20:24] <AlexBreton> that one's useless
[20:24] <AlexBreton> OK
[20:24] <AlexBreton> got my beef ready
[20:24] <AlexBreton> for Q4
[20:27] <natrium42> so liek hi guise
[20:27] <natrium42> when's launch? :)
[20:27] <AlexBreton> for us?
[20:27] <AlexBreton> we're thinking late july/early august
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[20:28] <natrium42> so not this weekend :(
[20:28] <natrium42> :~( :~( :~(
[20:29] <AlexBreton> lol
[20:30] <Fighter1405> wow, how tiny are the contacts on your camera?
[20:36] jcoxon (n=jcoxon@217.39.7.186) joined #highaltitude.
[20:37] <Fighter1405> Tiny tiny solder joint
[20:44] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, how many sources are we allowed?
[20:45] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, have you explained quantum jumps?
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[20:51] <AlexBreton> sbasuita?
[20:52] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, I'm about to start chemistry
[20:52] Action: DanielRichman starts by reading up on the bohring bits
[20:52] <AlexBreton> for tomorrow?
[20:52] <DanielRichman> no, thurdsay
[20:53] <AlexBreton> ah
[20:53] <AlexBreton> how many sources is we allowed?
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[20:58] <DanielRichman> uber neun tousand?
[20:58] <AlexBreton> shut it
[20:58] <DanielRichman> can't remember what Bullard said
[20:58] <DanielRichman> 4 to 8 I'd guess
[20:58] <AlexBreton> jog yo memory mofo
[20:58] <AlexBreton> I have 2
[20:58] <DanielRichman> You need more
[20:58] <AlexBreton> and tbh 2 is enough
[20:58] <DanielRichman> get a couple more and then you're laffin
[20:58] <AlexBreton> all my shazzle is found in 1 book
[20:59] <AlexBreton> is a different page a different reference?
[20:59] <AlexBreton> diff chapter
[21:00] <DanielRichman> ERm
[21:00] <DanielRichman> Tbh, no.
[21:00] <DanielRichman> the markscheme said you had to have atleast two sources
[21:00] <DanielRichman> don't risk it
[21:02] <AlexBreton> got 2
[21:02] <AlexBreton> and separate chapters = separate references
[21:02] <AlexBreton> you can't have 2 completely different pages in one number
[21:02] <AlexBreton> one is about Bohr &co and the other about lithium
[21:04] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, let's ask Wolfram Alpha about caesium!
[21:04] <DanielRichman> and francium
[21:04] <DanielRichman> why doesn't it have francium's atomic radius?
[21:06] <AlexBreton> ownt
[21:06] <AlexBreton> like anyone can [be arsed to] measure it
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[21:10] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, I could quote Niel Bohr's original article if i wanted to
[21:10] <DanielRichman> that'd be good.
[21:10] <AlexBreton> I am doing that
[21:10] <DanielRichman> good
[21:11] <AlexBreton> but that would imply I have read it
[21:11] <AlexBreton> which I haven't
[21:11] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, question 1 seems like a bit of a no brainer?
[21:11] <AlexBreton> it is
[21:11] <AlexBreton> typical OCR
[21:11] <DanielRichman> do you quote sources for qu 1?
[21:11] <AlexBreton> let the stupid people get some marks
[21:11] <AlexBreton> no
[21:11] <DanielRichman> hmm
[21:11] <AlexBreton> oh actually yes
[21:11] <DanielRichman> the textbook?
[21:13] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, I mean, how much do you really need to say?
[21:13] <AlexBreton> no some web page about francium
[21:13] <DanielRichman> it has no stable isotopes.?
[21:14] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, which bit of bohr's article did you reference?
[21:15] <AlexBreton> I didn't reference bloody Bohr
[21:15] <AlexBreton> he's gonna ask 'did you read this?'
[21:15] <AlexBreton> 'No.'
[21:15] <AlexBreton> 'Oh.'
[21:15] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, btw, I've got three seperate sources, but nine references
[21:15] <DanielRichman> obviously not.
[21:15] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, sbasuita is doing it right
[21:16] <AlexBreton> nine?
[21:16] <AlexBreton> I have 3 sources, 3 references
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[21:16] <AlexBreton> 1 source for Q1, 1 for Q3, one for Q5
[21:16] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, two from chemguide, one from some other website, 6 from webelements
[21:18] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, was chemguide the website that longstaff kept on banging on about?
[21:18] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, god knows
[21:18] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, how much will you say & how well have you sourced Q1
[21:19] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, q1 is easy
[21:19] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, just say it is unstable
[21:19] <sbasuita> I'll probably reference the ocr material as well
[21:19] <sbasuita> for q1
[21:19] <AlexBreton> time for some beef on charge density
[21:19] <sbasuita> er no
[21:19] <AlexBreton> er yes
[21:19] <AlexBreton> it makes sense
[21:19] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, what for>?
[21:20] <AlexBreton> melting points
[21:20] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, I guess you could bring that into it
[21:20] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, wheeler didn't mention it though
[21:21] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, did you quote sources when you found the electrons per shell?
[21:21] <AlexBreton> I didn't
[21:21] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, just talk about distance from nucleus and screening
[21:21] <AlexBreton> om
[21:21] Action: sbasuita didn't find electron shell config
[21:21] <AlexBreton> can't find a decent source on charge density anyway
[21:21] <AlexBreton> screw it
[21:21] <AlexBreton> I didn't config the electron shells either
[21:21] <AlexBreton> just stating the obvious
[21:22] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, what's your source on the Bohr model?
[21:22] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, just search bohr model and a bunch of university sites come up
[21:22] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, they all have the same info
[21:23] <DanielRichman> You gonna talk about how moving an electron from the outer shell gives off more juice than from an inner shell?
[21:23] <AlexBreton> no!
[21:23] <AlexBreton> irrelevant
[21:23] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, you're going to get no marks if you talk like that
[21:24] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, he's talking irrelevant shit anyway
[21:24] <AlexBreton> that doesn't come into it
[21:24] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, obviously I'm not gonna talk about that in the exam
[21:24] <AlexBreton> lol
[21:24] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, you clearly haven't investigated the Bohr model in sufficient depth
[21:24] <AlexBreton> covers himself
[21:24] <AlexBreton> you don't need that depth
[21:24] <DanielRichman> stfu zeusbot
[21:24] <AlexBreton> all they want is 'nucleus + electrons orbiting it'
[21:24] <AlexBreton> boom
[21:24] <AlexBreton> Bohr model in 4 word
[21:25] <AlexBreton> s
[21:25] <DanielRichman> Man your teacher is bad.
[21:26] <AlexBreton> no, I'm just very concise
[21:27] <AlexBreton> :P
[21:27] <AlexBreton> beefing about quantum leaps is not necessary and will not result in acquisition of cookies
[21:27] <DanielRichman> ROFL. The wikipedia Francium article cites a Yahoo! Answers page as a source which in turn cites wikipedia.
[21:28] <DanielRichman> citation no. 7
[21:28] Action: sbasuita is not surprised
[21:29] <AlexBreton> lol
[21:29] <AlexBreton> increased sources to 4
[21:30] <sbasuita> crazy optical illusion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Optical_grey_squares_orange_brown.svg
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[21:31] <sbasuita> "Optical illusion. Both circles and both squares are the exact same color( HEX#D18600, HEX#707070 ). A color picker can be used for verification."
[21:32] <AlexBreton> idd
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[21:35] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, that's jokes
[21:37] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, sbasuita, question 3 : did you reference anything to describe the reactions? We did it the lesson last week, can't we just describe the stuff we saw?
[21:37] <AlexBreton> yes
[21:37] <AlexBreton> stat
[21:37] <AlexBreton> damn
[21:38] <DanielRichman> er?
[21:38] <DanielRichman> sbasuita,
[21:40] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, cba to describe the reactions individually
[21:40] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, marks are there
[21:40] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, how can you be so sure?
[21:41] <DanielRichman> two weeks ago longstaff and bullard, for an unkown reason, decided to do an hour and a half of group 1 revision and give us tips
[21:41] <DanielRichman> week later, what do you know! it's in our coursework task
[21:41] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, yeh, same
[21:42] <DanielRichman> they suggested that describing observations of the reactions then making clear deductions would make it easy for the examiner to dish out the marks
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[21:43] <AlexBreton> dude
[21:43] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, I thought this was a research task, ie. not something where we are meant to come up with our own hypothesis
[21:43] <AlexBreton> just say 'it burns'
[21:43] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, well, the metals don't burn
[21:43] <AlexBreton> with varying degrees of violence
[21:43] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, in the more reactive ones the hydrogen ones do
[21:43] <DanielRichman> OOH, charge density
[21:43] <DanielRichman> fun stuff
[21:43] <AlexBreton> no
[21:43] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
[21:43] <AlexBreton> don't go there
[21:44] <AlexBreton> it's not on the internets
[21:44] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, it's in my exercise book
[21:44] <AlexBreton> not in my bigass textbook though
[21:44] <DanielRichman> I can see where the problem lies.
[21:44] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, allow charge density
[21:45] <DanielRichman> Once you can handle charge density, get a load of effective nuclear charge (!)
[21:45] <DanielRichman> Did you quote sources for question 4?
[21:45] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, are you printing your sources?
[21:45] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, obviously he is
[21:45] <AlexBreton> or have you just made notes?
[21:46] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, both
[21:46] <AlexBreton> you aren't allowed more than notes
[21:46] <AlexBreton> wheeler said
[21:46] Action: sbasuita can't find charge density in the index
[21:46] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, you sure?
[21:46] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, I think what he meant was you are not allowed your own written prose, only notes
[21:46] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, you're not allowed to construct the prose of a answer
[21:46] <AlexBreton> yeah he said no full sentences
[21:46] <DanielRichman> exactly
[21:46] <AlexBreton> right
[21:46] <AlexBreton> sure
[21:46] <AlexBreton> OK
[21:46] <DanielRichman> so you can plan your answers to extinction
[21:46] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, look, print them off - if he complains, don't take them in
[21:46] <sbasuita> simples
[21:46] <DanielRichman> which is what I will be doing tomorrow
[21:47] <AlexBreton> no beef
[21:47] <sbasuita> cba to write them out in full now
[21:48] <sbasuita> Currently listening: http://www.last.fm/music/Air/_/Le+voyage+de+Penelope
[21:48] <DanielRichman> FRENCH?
[21:48] <sbasuita> (only a preview there though - check tpb for the whole album)
[21:48] <sbasuita> highly recommended ;)
[21:48] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, french electronica is generally very good
[21:51] <gordonjcp> good choice
[21:51] <AlexBreton> Jean-Michel Jarre is a legend
[21:51] <DanielRichman> Weil ich sehr Mude bin, muss ich gehen; Tschuss AlexBreton
[21:52] <AlexBreton> wahey
[21:52] <AlexBreton> tyred at 10 :P
[21:52] <gordonjcp> jamendo seems to have a lot of French triphop
[21:52] <DanielRichman> Just make up a your mum joke and pretend I said it, cba to construct insults.
[21:52] <DanielRichman> bye AlexBreton
[21:52] <AlexBreton> cu
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[21:53] <sbasuita> gordonjcp, love a bit of trip hop
[21:53] <gordonjcp> DanielRichman: your mother's so fat, she stepped out in the road in front of me and I tried to swerve around her but I ran out of petrol
[21:53] <sbasuita> original, but long winded
[21:53] <sbasuita> ; P
[21:55] <gordonjcp> your mother's so fat, what looks like a black dress on her is really her event horizon
[22:05] <Fighter1405> Yay, camera is all working :D
[22:05] <AlexBreton> yo momma so fat, I had to take a train to get onto her good side ;-)
[22:06] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, I think I've got all my sources in order
[22:06] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, from microcontroller?
[22:06] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, cool
[22:06] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, how many sites?
[22:06] <sbasuita> /books
[22:06] <AlexBreton> 3 sites, 1 book
[22:06] <sbasuita> sounds good
[22:06] <AlexBreton> book is sited twice
[22:07] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, one of your dads crazy ones?
[22:07] <AlexBreton> at 2 locations
[22:07] <AlexBreton> yeah though this is one he bought for me
[22:07] <AlexBreton> it's actually new =)
[22:07] <sbasuita> : O
[22:07] <AlexBreton> well, 1997
[22:07] <AlexBreton> as opposed to 1977
[22:07] <sbasuita> right :)
[22:08] <AlexBreton> nice chem textbook, probably A-level or a bit higher in places
[22:08] <AlexBreton> american so I can't really relate
[22:10] <Fighter1405> sbasuita: not microcontoller yet, but an external switch
[22:10] <sbasuita> Fighter1405, nice. Was it simple?
[22:11] <Fighter1405> The contacts on the shutter were too small to solder
[22:11] <Fighter1405> So I butchered a mini usb cable and used chdk
[22:11] <Fighter1405> Not too bad
[22:11] <sbasuita> oh right
[22:11] <sbasuita> that's cool
[22:12] <Fighter1405> Did you get a chance to look at the batteries?
[22:12] <sbasuita> Ah
[22:12] <sbasuita> not yet, no
[22:12] <sbasuita> my dad is germany
[22:12] <sbasuita> or somewhere in europe
[22:12] <sbasuita> for the next few days
[22:12] <sbasuita> so haven't had a chance to speak to him
[22:12] <Fighter1405> No problem
[22:12] <sbasuita> i'll probably get him to sort out the package cause he's always doing that sort of stuff
[22:13] <Fighter1405> Great, thanks :) There isn't a rush on it though. I have a plug to power it with for testing
[22:13] <sbasuita> Yeah, we haven't used any yet.
[22:15] <AlexBreton> oh great
[22:15] <AlexBreton> my dad has managed to lose a power drill
[22:15] <AlexBreton> just wtf
[22:15] <sbasuita> hehe
[22:15] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, what does he want a power drill for at this time?
[22:16] <AlexBreton> god knows
[22:16] <AlexBreton> more importantly, how do you lose a power drill?
[22:16] <AlexBreton> OK keys/wallet
[22:16] <AlexBreton> but a god damn drill?!
[22:22] <Fighter1405> http://jed-project.blogspot.com/2009/06/camera.html :D
[22:23] <AlexBreton> powershot A550
[22:23] <Fighter1405> Indeed
[22:23] <AlexBreton> similar hardware to us
[22:23] <AlexBreton> A80 here
[22:23] <Fighter1405> Chosen based on what was on ebay
[22:23] <Fighter1405> Ah nice
[22:23] <AlexBreton> lol
[22:24] <AlexBreton> I just had an A80 banging about
[22:24] <Fighter1405> I wanted something cheap that gave reasonable photos
[22:24] <Fighter1405> This was the best I could find
[22:24] <AlexBreton> yeah powershot A-series is reliable and gives good pics
[22:24] <AlexBreton> mine gave 4 years of sterling service before being cut up
[22:24] <Fighter1405> Ah nice, fingers crossed then
[22:27] <AlexBreton> powershots have been tested down to low temps in balloons also
[22:27] <AlexBreton> someone had an A60 which worked very well on UKHAS
[22:27] <Fighter1405> Perfect then
[22:27] <AlexBreton> the hardware is similar across the range
[22:27] <AlexBreton> they just add Mps
[22:27] <Fighter1405> And the use of AA batteries in them means you can use the lithium batteries and not rely on the rechargables
[22:27] <AlexBreton> ok I'm off
[22:27] <AlexBreton> ye
[22:28] <AlexBreton> 96 lithiums here
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[22:28] <Fighter1405> Yah
[22:28] <Fighter1405> Cya
[22:28] <AlexBreton> successfully blagged by myself
[22:28] <AlexBreton> so, bye bye
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[22:41] Laurenceb (n=laurence@dyres221-74.surrey.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[22:42] <Laurenceb> hi
[22:42] <Fighter1405> Heya
[22:43] <sbasuita> greets
[22:44] <Laurenceb> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8103106.stm <- interesting
[22:45] <Fighter1405> It is 434Mhz we want right?
[22:45] <Laurenceb> yes
[22:45] <Fighter1405> Great, just ordering the NTX2
[22:46] <Fighter1405> They keep refusing to give me one :(
[22:46] <Laurenceb> got anything to receive it with?
[22:46] <Laurenceb> why?
[22:47] <Fighter1405> They don't understand it isn't a university project
[22:47] <Fighter1405> They want the university to contact them, with a link to their site from the university departments site
[22:47] <Fighter1405> And yes, I've ordered a transciever on the basis I can sell it again afterwards without losing too much hopefully
[22:51] stilldavid (n=dave@vpn-73-18.CSUChico.EDU) left irc:
[22:52] <sbasuita> the BBC doesn't really elaborate on what they mean by 'open source car'
[22:52] <gordonjcp> !call RV3QG
[22:52] <gordonjcp> bah
[22:52] <Laurenceb> they publish all the design documentation
[22:52] <Laurenceb> the supercapacitor idea is good
[22:52] <Laurenceb> but 6KW sounds a bit low... guess its very light
[22:53] <sbasuita> 350kg from the article
[22:53] <Laurenceb> yeah, extremely light compared to internal combustion cars
[22:55] stilldavid (n=dave@vpn-73-18.CSUChico.EDU) joined #highaltitude.
[22:56] <natrium42> yo stilldavid
[22:56] <stilldavid> hey there
[22:56] <natrium42> next time you meet with the google maps team
[22:56] <natrium42> ask them to fix the print view for directions
[22:57] <natrium42> :P
[22:57] <stilldavid> what's broken about them?
[22:57] <natrium42> it shows a list, but it's hard to print out the map itself with the route
[22:58] <natrium42> i doubt that everybody likes to follow a list
[22:58] <natrium42> some people are more visual
[22:58] borism (n=boris@195-50-199-119-dsl.krw.estpak.ee) joined #highaltitude.
[23:01] <stilldavid> when I print them, I get an option to show a map at each turn, or the overview map :-/
[23:01] <stilldavid> which is new to me, actually, and pretty cool
[23:02] <sbasuita> stilldavid, so, what are the latest greatest features over the horizon that the maps team are talking about?
[23:03] <natrium42> stilldavid, it's just not smart enough
[23:03] <natrium42> little maps each turn do give good overview
[23:03] <stilldavid> I posted that from the I/O conference, where Google and the browser makers were pushing hard for HTML 5
[23:03] <natrium42> do not, that is
[23:04] <stilldavid> I think maps is just humming along, nothing major on the horizon that they would share...
[23:04] borism_ (n=boris@195-50-201-17-dsl.krw.estpak.ee) left irc: Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)
[23:04] <sbasuita> aww :(
[23:05] <natrium42> stilldavid, anywayz, that's my only gripe :)
[23:05] <stilldavid> wish I had a better photo, but they had a street view bike on display: http://home.stilldavid.com/dave/google.jpg
[23:06] <stilldavid> with lidar and a bunch of other fun stuff
[23:06] <stilldavid> natrium42: I'll pass the word along :)
[23:08] <stilldavid> I think I'm going to send the Google Ion up in the balloon when I get a chance to work on it again
[23:09] <natrium42> Ion?
[23:10] <stilldavid> it's the new HTC phone, they gave a bunch away at the conference
[23:11] <Fighter1405> You went to google's conference?
[23:11] <stilldavid> it's a replacement for the G1 that's coming down the line. I've already got a phone, and the Ion is unlocked and open-source, so... :)
[23:11] <Fighter1405> Lucky
[23:11] <stilldavid> Fighter1405: yeah, my uni sent me
[23:12] <Fighter1405> I read engadget's coverage of it, looked pretty interesting
[23:12] <Fighter1405> Did you see wave (if that's what it is called)?
[23:12] <Fighter1405> The new IM service
[23:12] <stilldavid> yeah, the keynote was quite interesting, but the service is still really slow and buggy
[23:13] <stilldavid> but promising
[23:13] <Fighter1405> I'm sure
[23:13] <Fighter1405> A bit far for me to travel :p
[23:13] <stilldavid> I'm stilldavid@wavesandbox.com
[23:13] <stilldavid> Fighter1405: where are you located?
[23:13] <Fighter1405> Near London
[23:14] <stilldavid> I only had to drive about 300km to San Francisco :P Interesting, though, the whole Wave team is based in Australia
[23:15] <Fighter1405> wow, long drive
[23:17] <sbasuita> stilldavid, just watched your skydiving vid
[23:17] <sbasuita> looks like fun
[23:17] <sbasuita> http://vimeo.com/1505731
[23:17] <sbasuita> : )
[23:18] <sbasuita> anyway i'm off
[23:18] <sbasuita> bye
[23:18] sbasuita (n=sbasuita@unaffiliated/drebellion) left irc: "Leaving"
[23:22] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
[23:31] Nick change: Fighter1405 -> Fighter|sleep
[23:49] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: ping
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> pong - sortof
[23:50] Action: SpeedEvil is probably going back to sleep
[23:51] <Laurenceb> http://www.precisionmicrodrives.com/product_info.php?products_id=83 <- I was looking at that for valve actuation
[23:51] <Laurenceb> but I'm not sure about the vavle - I was thinking ganged ball valves
[23:51] <Laurenceb> but ceramic valves have very low torque
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> 400g is a lot for valves
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> for drivers
[23:52] <Laurenceb> those are ~100 grams
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> yes - you need at least 4 surely?
[23:53] <Laurenceb> this is for the main propellant
[23:53] <Laurenceb> the 4 solenoids are for the nozzle injection
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> ah - this is the ganged throttle motor then?
[23:53] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/52606
[23:54] <Laurenceb> yes
[23:54] <Laurenceb> I think you need something of the order 0.3Nm of torque
[23:54] <Laurenceb> for an o ring design
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> I think first you need to work out the valves.
[23:54] <Laurenceb> but ceramic valves look very promising
[23:54] <Laurenceb> yeah
[23:55] <Laurenceb> theres so many possible designs :-S
[23:55] <SpeedEvil> Also - you probably want details on how fast that responds
[23:56] <Laurenceb> yeah, the 225-202 on that page should be pretty speedy
[23:56] <Laurenceb> I'm thining of using 50V DC for the motors and solenoids
[23:56] <SpeedEvil> for any particular reason?
[23:56] <SpeedEvil> Minimisation of cable mass?
[23:58] <Laurenceb> yes, and ability to use off the shelf motors and solenoids
[23:58] <Laurenceb> and overdrive them a lot
[23:59] <SpeedEvil> overdriving brushed motors byy much can be bad
[23:59] <SpeedEvil> solenoids are nice and predictable and measurable in their response to overload
[23:59] <Laurenceb> yea those motors are a bit ppor anyway
[23:59] <Laurenceb> really want some with NiB magnets
[00:00] --- Wed Jun 17 2009