highaltitude.log.20090602

[00:02] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: are friction lossses to the chamber walls important?
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> dunno, sorry
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> it's been a while since I looked at this
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> Have you read through sutton?
[00:03] <Laurenceb> nope
[00:03] <Laurenceb> I'll have a look for it
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> Sutton - Rocket Propulsion Elements.
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> It's the classic book in the field
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> prolly a good idea to have a read through it.
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[00:40] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: providing you can make the thruster efficient, there nothing to stop a small (~3m diameter) solar thermal airship from working
[00:41] <Laurenceb> providing it can be towed to altitude and the tank, absorber and nozzle is < ~100grams
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[01:05] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I can't see anything fundamental.
[01:05] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: but...
[01:05] <SpeedEvil> Of course.
[01:05] <Laurenceb> getting into a circular orbit is tricky
[01:05] <Laurenceb> it has to fly at the sun
[01:05] <SpeedEvil> at that scale, it gets to the point that lasers pushing it are _almost_ achievable :)
[01:06] <Laurenceb> but not cheap
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> no
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> Alas not
[01:06] <Laurenceb> but mylar is... if you can source it thin enough
[01:07] <Laurenceb> http://www.hollinbrow.co.uk/stainless-steel-foil.html
[01:07] <Laurenceb> would be useful for mounting the motor
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[01:11] <Laurenceb> all the solar sail people talk about aluminised kapton pretty much... maybe you can get it thinner
[01:13] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if blow-moulding is going to be more practical than trying to make this from gores.
[01:13] <Laurenceb> for small sizes, yes
[01:13] <Laurenceb> thats the whole point
[01:14] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
[01:14] <Laurenceb> problem is deformation during the motor burn
[01:14] <Laurenceb> and from drag
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[09:51] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
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[11:22] Action: Laurenceb gets a few femtosharks with frickin' femtolasers, and his high-efficiency evil lair is complete
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[12:35] <SpeedEvil> tie a femptoshark to a bottle of LH2, ...
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> on deformation - what is the initial Q, and hoop stress induced by it
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[13:59] <edmoore> hi G8KHW
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[14:41] <G8KHW> yo
[14:43] <edmoore> that data is fascinating
[14:44] <edmoore> i did some sums that suggested achieving neutral bouyancy would be quite an underdamped phenomenon that would be roughly of that period, ish, a bit
[14:44] <edmoore> model needs a lot of work
[14:44] <edmoore> but it definitely doesn't explain the sudden drop off of vertical velocity, as you point out
[14:45] <G8KHW> yeah - its so pronounced
[14:48] <G8KHW> I'm still not convined about the burst ascent rate calculator is that wrong - if you guys filled Nova12 for 4m/sec then it actually achieved about 3m/sec
[14:49] <G8KHW> I might up the cd for the 1500g from 0.25 to 0.3
[14:54] <edmoore> yeah, that might be fair
[14:54] <edmoore> we really need a hangar and then measure everything acuratly
[14:55] <edmoore> then we could fit the model accurately with some good initial conditions
[15:13] <G8KHW> idealy yes - or some accurate measurements on real flights
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[15:18] <rjharrison_work> Hi all
[15:18] <rjharrison_work> edmoore: Have new eee windscreen mount now
[15:18] <rjharrison_work> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/3586294757/sizes/l/in/set-72157618814637849/
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> s/hanger/tent/
[15:19] <rjharrison_work> I have also improved the listener to prevent junk being plotted on the tracker :)
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[16:07] <edmoore> rjharrison_work: awesome
[16:07] <edmoore> can't wait to test it at the w/e
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[16:12] <rjharrison_work> U up ?
[16:12] <rjharrison_work> or steve
[16:28] <edmoore> rjharrison_work: steve i belive
[16:28] <edmoore> ie*
[16:29] <edmoore> you'll have to invlude my nick so it pings my client - otherwise i tend to forget about irc
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[17:09] <SpeedEvil> I've been congratulating myself on being virtuous, and getting up an hour earlier this week.
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> Only to find out that I'd in fact mis-set my clock.
[17:09] <edmoore> :)
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[17:19] <G8KHW> hummmm - where is that DL status page (who is logged in etc)
[17:19] <G8KHW> ?
[17:20] Action: sbasuita greps the logs
[17:20] <sbasuita> G8KHW, http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/loggers.php
[17:22] <G8KHW> yeah - thats it ta
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[18:12] <rjharrison_work> http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/graph.png
[18:13] <rjharrison_work> Looks like there was some interesting stuff going on at ~33k
[18:13] <rjharrison_work> Seemed to halt the balloon
[18:13] <gordonjcp> high altitude clingfilm
[18:14] <gordonjcp> someone stretched it over the top of the atmosphere as a prank
[18:14] <rjharrison_work> lol
[18:14] Action: SpeedEvil suggested that for small rings.
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> You have a ring with a diameter of a few hundred Km, rotating at 1G, with sides to contain the atmosphere, and cling-film over the top
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[18:34] <Laurenceb> drag coefficient of spheres varies quite a bit
[18:34] <Laurenceb> you seem to be able to see the tropopause on that graph too
[18:35] <Laurenceb> I saw some papers where they tested drag coefficient of smooth spheres vs Re
[18:35] <Laurenceb> but the drop off is weird, maybe the nozzle wasnt sealed?
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[20:23] <Laurenceb> maybe its something to do with the latex
[20:24] <Laurenceb> it reached the yeild point at 33Km
[20:24] <Laurenceb> and for some reason - low overfill or maybe the low temperature it became less bouyant
[20:24] <Laurenceb> also - what time was sunrise at 33Km ?
[20:29] <DanielRichman> Anyone able to check over the alien PCB before I start making it?
[20:29] <Laurenceb> k
[20:30] <DanielRichman> Schematic: http://www.richmanwebsite.co.uk/alien1.pdf
[20:30] <DanielRichman> Top board view with items & tracks, no copper pour: http://www.richmanwebsite.co.uk/alien1b.pdf
[20:31] <DanielRichman> Board with components only: http://www.richmanwebsite.co.uk/alien1be.pdf
[20:31] <DanielRichman> A4 PDF of the toner-image: http://www.richmanwebsite.co.uk/alien1_bottom.pdf
[20:31] <DanielRichman> We're gonna use a chemical process
[20:31] <DanielRichman> btw. that PDF renders dodgily in evince, if you want I can give you the postscript instead
[20:32] <DanielRichman> A6 version of the image, because it's cheaper to print onto a smaller bit of transparent-stuff: http://www.richmanwebsite.co.uk/alien1_bottom_s.pdf
[20:32] <Laurenceb> I'd stick enable on a gpio
[20:32] <Laurenceb> on the radiometrix
[20:33] <DanielRichman> When would you pull it high or low?
[20:33] <DanielRichman> We intend to be pretty much constantly transmitting
[20:33] <DanielRichman> unless that's a bad idea
[20:33] <Laurenceb> you could save power, thats all
[20:33] <DanielRichman> Unless you reckon that our batteries will run out, it's probably simpler to keep it on a pullup
[20:34] <Laurenceb> atmega162?
[20:34] <Laurenceb> why not 168?
[20:34] <DanielRichman> Two UARTS and Rapid Electronics had the 168 out of stock
[20:34] <Laurenceb> ah ok
[20:34] <Laurenceb> whats the three pin thingy?
[20:35] <DanielRichman> My strain relief holes?
[20:35] <DanielRichman> or the temperature sensors?
[20:35] <Laurenceb> low rhs
[20:36] <DanielRichman> sorry?
[20:36] <DanielRichman> oh
[20:36] <DanielRichman> right hand side
[20:36] <DanielRichman> Oh the giant square bottom left?
[20:37] <DanielRichman> that's the top-half of the lassen
[20:37] <DanielRichman> it'll be a single sided board, so I'm going to solder it to the bottom
[20:37] <DanielRichman> the bit will hang over the edge 'cause the connector isn't 100% flush with the bottom
[20:37] <DanielRichman> so it wouldn't mount otherwise
[20:37] <Laurenceb> ok
[20:40] <DanielRichman> NTX2 consumes 18mA. Obviously in the name of perfection I should probably put it on a GPIO and have it stop transmitting, but I think that it's not worth the potential-breakage, and if the flight computer goes down then maybe the carrier-only would be useful to have
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[20:41] <Laurenceb> thats a pon
[20:41] <Laurenceb> *point
[20:42] <edmoore> 32
[20:42] <edmoore> goodness
[20:43] <Laurenceb> 2^5
[20:43] <DanielRichman> Milestone there
[20:45] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, so it looks good?
[20:45] <Laurenceb> think so
[20:45] <DanielRichman> great :)
[20:56] <Laurenceb> edmoore: your theory about the balloon oscillating might work
[20:56] <edmoore> uhuh
[20:56] <Laurenceb> seems to roughly match what was observed
[20:56] <Laurenceb> I put it in my solar thermal airship simulator :P
[20:58] <Laurenceb> thing is plastic deformation should cause the internal pressure to be lower not higher than expected
[20:59] <edmoore> exactly
[20:59] <edmoore> was wandering if it hit the elastic limit
[20:59] <edmoore> i have no data on how it behaves around there though
[21:00] <edmoore> it's possible - it was massively under-filled
[21:02] <edmoore> that's certainly some kind of discrete and fairly sudden behavioural change in the system, which might have something to do with our observed discrete and sudden behavioural change
[21:04] <Laurenceb> sunrise on the balloon was about 4.15
[21:04] <Laurenceb> just looking at the EXIF
[21:04] <Laurenceb> so maybe a bit early to tie up with sunrise
[21:04] <Laurenceb> - late even
[21:05] Action: Laurenceb has found 0.5um clear and 2um aluminised mylar :D
[21:08] <Laurenceb> using the clear stuff you could get to crazy altitudes with a really small balloon and ultralight payload
[21:28] <Laurenceb> - I certainly dont think it was diffusion losses from the envelope after seeing that graph
[21:30] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: found as in you can get it by thursday?
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[21:32] <Laurenceb> heh you need to search for the indoor plane stuff
[21:32] <Laurenceb> yes probably, theres several webstores
[21:33] <Laurenceb> I hadnt thought of it before, but indoor plane guys use really thin mylar
[21:34] <Laurenceb> unfortunatley something I hadnt realised is bouyancy is important
[21:34] <Laurenceb> hoisting up to 45 or 50km doesnt work
[21:34] <Laurenceb> so you really need something very big
[21:34] <Laurenceb> ~100m diameter for 1kg into lunar orbit
[21:34] <SpeedEvil> why important?
[21:35] <Laurenceb> it offsets a load of your drag losses
[21:35] <Laurenceb> and means you dont need a thrust/weigh of 1
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> surely after you get to double or so the natural ascent velocity, that goes away
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[21:35] <Laurenceb> so you can carry stupid amount of fuel at "ignition"
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> ah
[21:36] <Laurenceb> its all weird and nonlinear
[21:37] <Laurenceb> NASA have used 0.25um clear and aluminised mylar, but I havent seen it avaliable
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> work out Q, and hence internal pressure, and hence minimum hoop stress, and hence minimum thickness of unreinforced mylar
[21:37] <Laurenceb> yeah
[21:37] <Laurenceb> another option is rockoon then thermal airship
[21:38] <Laurenceb> theres a rocketdyne paper where they built something very similar for use from LEO l
[21:38] <Laurenceb> 4um mylar inflatable concentrator
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> deployment will be a bitch
[21:38] <Laurenceb> they built a mockup with tape that worked
[21:39] <Laurenceb> 5*9m elliptical
[21:39] <Laurenceb> then tweaked with a lidar
[21:40] <Laurenceb> or rather a modiied lidar type device - using the reflected ray paths
[21:40] <Laurenceb> http://arxiv.org/pdf/0903.1601 <-- interesting
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> sorry - going back to sleep
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> And if you're off to the moon by the time I get up, good luck.
[21:41] <Laurenceb> heh
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[22:15] <grummund> Bear Grylls: Mission Everest - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/bear-grylls/catch-up#2873386
[22:16] <grummund> just a heads up for anyone that might be interested, 23hrs left on 4OD.
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[22:30] <rjharrison> ping edmoore_
[22:30] <edmoore_> hi
[22:30] <rjharrison> I have implemented NMEA checksums in the server
[22:31] <rjharrison> And poped some info on the wiki http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/projects:dlistener
[22:31] <rjharrison> popped :)
[22:31] <rjharrison> Ping natrium42
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[22:43] <rjharrison> edmoore_: NMEA checksums are working now
[22:44] <edmoore_> ah cool. sorry yes, you have to ping me, as u figured out
[22:44] <edmoore_> neat, can't wait to see 'em work on sat!
[22:44] <rjharrison> See view.php
[22:45] <rjharrison> edmoore: http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/view.php
[22:50] <Laurenceb> http://www.sniffpetrol.com/wp-content/uploads/spad_scrappage.jpg
[22:51] <edmoore_> neet
[22:51] <edmoore_> i like the failed probability checks
[22:55] <rjharrison> hehe
[22:56] <rjharrison> edmoore: They will keep the data clean for people without checksums
[22:58] <Laurenceb> so you stick a u08 checksum on the end?
[23:00] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
[23:05] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[23:05] Action: Laurenceb checks out rjharrisons checksums
[23:09] <natrium42> i'd use CRC16
[23:28] <rjharrison> natrium42: nmea CRC8 is done now :)
[23:29] <rjharrison> I may change it depending on how it perfrms
[23:29] <natrium42> ok, it's definitely better than nothing
[23:29] <rjharrison> natrium42: Have upgraded to new tracker
[23:29] <natrium42> but it can miss errors much easier
[23:29] <rjharrison> It's fantastic
[23:29] <natrium42> ah, cool
[23:29] <natrium42> thanks
[23:30] <rjharrison> I have changed your server code to replace HTTP_GET with _GET
[23:30] <rjharrison> as it foxed me again
[23:30] <natrium42> oh rite
[23:30] <natrium42> oops :)
[23:30] <rjharrison> I did that on space
[23:30] <rjharrison> hope that's ok
[23:30] <natrium42> excellent
[23:30] <natrium42> yes, of course
[23:31] <natrium42> is anybody launching this weekend?
[23:31] <rjharrison> now I have upgraded my version to allow access to previous missions
[23:32] <rjharrison> http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/index.php?mission_id=97
[23:32] <rjharrison> Yep Steve is
[23:32] <rjharrison> Do you want that at your end?
[23:33] <natrium42> nah, it's fine
[23:33] <rjharrison> ok
[23:33] <rjharrison> I'm hoping to keep all the historical data
[23:33] <natrium42> :)
[23:33] <rjharrison> Working on stats backend now
[23:34] <natrium42> i am a little worried about multiple missions being stored in the same table
[23:34] <natrium42> dunno if it could affect db performance
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[23:34] <natrium42> have been considering switching to file storage instead -- one file per mission
[23:34] <rjharrison> Oh it's fine. I have a mysql table with over 58 million rows in it and it work in nano seconds to pull indexed data
[23:35] <natrium42> <--- db challenged
[23:35] <natrium42> ah, ok
[23:35] <natrium42> can always provide both layers with the same interface
[23:35] <natrium42> if performance goes down, we can always switch to files
[23:35] <rjharrison> true
[23:35] <rjharrison> yep
[23:35] <rjharrison> http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/graph.png
[23:36] <rjharrison> This is the sort of thing I hope to do automatically for each mission
[23:36] <natrium42> that would be awesome
[23:36] <rjharrison> Building them dynamically as the data comes in
[23:36] <rjharrison> Perhaps up to 30 different graphs
[23:36] <natrium42> perhaps generate the graphs in PHP and refresh them periodically in the tracker
[23:37] <rjharrison> Yep thats the idea
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[23:38] <rjharrison> I was thinking of having a stats page you can call up for the latest info
[23:38] <rjharrison> With graphs rebuilding auomagically every minute
[23:38] <rjharrison> bbiab beer with wife
[23:38] <natrium42> kk, later
[23:41] <natrium42> rjharrison, you misspelled steve's name btw, it's "Randall" :)
[23:42] <rjharrison> hehe
[23:42] <rjharrison> Ok
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[23:43] <natrium42> coffee time
[23:56] <rjharrison> nights
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[00:00] --- Wed Jun 3 2009