highaltitude.log.20090531

[00:01] <G8KHW> nights
[00:01] G8KHW (n=Steve@217.47.75.8) left irc: "Leaving"
[00:10] <Laurenceb> whats all this about "britains got taliban" ?
[00:11] <natrium42> talent? :P
[00:15] <Laurenceb> http://www.zeppy.org/
[00:18] <natrium42> cool
[00:18] <natrium42> i want to have that too :(
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[00:20] <Laurenceb> why are the french always making cool stuff :P
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[00:31] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2x8i0ewGdM&NR=1
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[00:52] <fuzzylugnuts> .... there really was a cake
[00:53] <fuzzylugnuts> ;_;
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[02:05] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
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[02:47] <rjharrison> anyone up
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[07:29] <rjharrison> Morning all
[07:31] <mc_-> morning
[07:32] <natrium42> hi robert & mike
[07:32] <mc_-> still awake?
[07:33] <rjharrison> I think that was to you natrium42 :)
[07:33] <rjharrison> mc_- I'v just got up
[07:33] <rjharrison> natrium42: Do you know what time CUSF plans to launch?
[07:33] <mc_-> natrium burns midnight oil
[07:34] <natrium42> i stay up until 3 am usually :/
[07:34] <natrium42> rjharrison, no idea sorry
[07:36] <mc_-> natrium, are you planning to get a ham license?
[07:36] <rjharrison> all the midnight oil and then some too
[07:36] <natrium42> yes
[07:37] <rjharrison> natrium42: I have tidied up the listener a bit
[07:37] <mc_-> i dont work late, my kids sometimes wake up early
[07:37] <rjharrison> SHould not log so many bad points
[07:38] <rjharrison> Using the launch today as a test.
[07:38] <natrium42> yah, but you can get rid of most of them by few simple checks
[07:38] <rjharrison> Yep basicaly I have removed any sentence which was incomplete
[07:39] <natrium42> i added range checks and optional distance check into track.php
[07:39] <natrium42> feel free to grab it
[07:39] <rjharrison> And then used the diffrence between the last two points and calculted the new position and compared it to actual and allowed it to be out by 100%
[07:39] <mc_-> rjh, ive built a gps module, which can be switched off+on to save power, so a small bat can be used
[07:40] <mc_-> any interest to you?
[07:40] <Laurenceb> hi folks
[07:40] Action: Laurenceb has a payload coming together
[07:40] <mc_-> mornin
[07:40] <rjharrison> natrium42: Hehe we have done the same then ish
[07:40] <Laurenceb> just got it talking to my laptop..
[07:40] <natrium42> rjharrison, i wrote a small script to link trackers
[07:40] <rjharrison> Laurenceb: Do you know when cusf plan to launch
[07:41] <Laurenceb> nope
[07:41] <natrium42> used it to chuck the chase car positions during your launch :P
[07:41] <Laurenceb> prob after lunch
[07:41] <mc_-> Laurenceb, do you have that gps module I gave some time ago?
[07:41] <Laurenceb> yes
[07:41] <Laurenceb> havent tried it, been using lassen / ublox
[07:41] <rjharrison> hehe I wondered how you got the chase car data on spacenear.us
[07:41] <rjharrison> good effort
[07:41] <mc_-> i have a pcb for it now
[07:41] <Laurenceb> oh nice work
[07:42] <mc_-> also got the gyro in
[07:42] <natrium42> rjharrison, have you tried doing a sunset panorama yet?
[07:42] <natrium42> it looks like there are enough pictures
[07:43] <Laurenceb> mc_ nice, which gyro?
[07:43] <rjharrison> natrium42: not yet
[07:43] <mc_-> the one from seeedstudio
[07:43] <rjharrison> will gie it a go at some point looking after 3 kids this morning too
[07:43] <Laurenceb> hmm not sure about the temperature stability
[07:43] <Laurenceb> mc_-: I like the mlx90609
[07:43] <mc_-> its not too bad short term
[07:44] <rjharrison> natrium42: How does the scrip pull the chase car data?
[07:44] <Laurenceb> mc_-: theres code on the wiki for using gyro + gps
[07:44] <mc_-> it was only a few $
[07:44] <rjharrison> select * out od positions where mission_id = 0;
[07:44] <natrium42> no, it uses the public interface
[07:45] <Laurenceb> its worth spending a bit more for decent kit
[07:45] <natrium42> i don't have access to your db
[07:45] <rjharrison> ooh
[07:45] <rjharrison> What is the public intereface?
[07:45] <natrium42> data.php :)
[07:45] <rjharrison> I didn't know it exisited
[07:45] <natrium42> well, the javascript is using it to get points
[07:45] <rjharrison> can you request from there too
[07:45] Action: Laurenceb is working on a thermal airship to orbit simulator
[07:46] <rjharrison> hehe so you modded the call to pull the new chase_car
[07:46] <mc_-> as in jpaerospace?
[07:46] <Laurenceb> nope
[07:46] <Laurenceb> they are mad
[07:46] <mc_-> agreed
[07:46] <Laurenceb> first of all solar thermal
[07:46] <Laurenceb> then lower isp so you need less power
[07:46] <natrium42> rjharrison, http://pastebin.com/m4375ab7a
[07:46] <natrium42> that's the script
[07:46] <Laurenceb> then start at 45Km or so and head straight up
[07:47] <Laurenceb> fast as poss, but staying subsonic below 90Km
[07:47] <natrium42> rjharrison, might be useful in the future if we need to link trackers
[07:47] <Laurenceb> balance gravity losses with drag, so between 150 and 250m/s
[07:48] <Laurenceb> the biggest problem is getting high enough thrust
[07:48] <Laurenceb> needs a very thin mylar envelope
[07:48] <Laurenceb> ~2um
[07:48] <mc_-> whats the propellant?
[07:48] <Laurenceb> liquid hydrogen
[07:49] <Laurenceb> heated to ~3000K
[07:49] <Laurenceb> as in the nuclear engines
[07:49] <natrium42> did somebody say nuclear?!?!
[07:49] Action: natrium42 wakes up
[07:49] <Laurenceb> nerva
[07:50] <rjharrison> natrium42: cool
[07:50] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NERVA
[07:50] <rjharrison> I prefer to link people back to spacenear.us to give you credit for the cool map
[07:50] <rjharrison> If I get time today I'm going to upgrade to the new version
[07:51] <natrium42> yah, it's worth it
[07:51] <natrium42> of course it's nowhere near complete yet
[07:53] <mc_-> how about co2 as dry ice as a propellant?
[07:54] <Laurenceb> too low an ISP
[07:54] <Laurenceb> of course... you could go for staged solar thermal airships...
[07:54] <Laurenceb> not sure how that would work, but a lower ISP is better for punching out of the atmosphere
[07:55] <Laurenceb> then switch to liquid hydrogen
[07:55] <Laurenceb> maybe two propellant tanks
[07:55] <mc_-> co2 might get to 100km
[07:55] <Laurenceb> I was looking at some numbers on paper... it seemed to be feasible...
[07:56] <Laurenceb> with ammonia
[07:56] <mc_-> and its easy to test
[07:56] <Laurenceb> of course actually building it is another matter
[07:56] <Laurenceb> very high accuracy mylar seams needed
[07:57] <Laurenceb> with the thinnest mylar you can get
[07:58] <mc_-> mirrors to focus the heat?
[08:00] <Laurenceb> yes
[08:00] <Laurenceb> also forms the side of the airship
[08:03] <mc_-> a rocket seems easier to test
[08:03] <Laurenceb> yes
[08:04] <Laurenceb> but its a cool concept
[08:04] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/50931
[08:04] <mc_-> still like your idea of a LGG
[08:04] Action: natrium42 Zzz
[08:05] <natrium42> nite all
[08:05] <mc_-> cya
[08:05] <Laurenceb> yes LGG is easy to build
[08:05] <Laurenceb> cya
[08:06] <mc_-> ive got some shotgun cartridges
[08:06] <Laurenceb> heh
[08:06] <mc_-> but no gun
[08:06] <Laurenceb> just need a lot of time on a lathe
[08:06] <rjharrison> nights natrium42
[08:07] <rjharrison> You passwd is set up on the tracker
[08:07] <Laurenceb> I think my cubesat launcher could be built for <£5K
[08:08] <mc_-> A lgg could be built for 100
[08:08] <Laurenceb> you have to get it to 200Km or so
[08:10] <mc_-> it could fire from 30km maybe could reach 100km?
[08:12] <Laurenceb> huh
[08:12] <Laurenceb> oh with a rocket?
[08:12] <mc_-> just fire it from a HAB
[08:13] <Laurenceb> youd lose the projectile after ~1orbit
[08:13] <Laurenceb> as itd come back down to 30Km
[08:14] <mc_-> was just trying to get 100km alt
[08:14] <Laurenceb> oh fair enough
[08:14] <Laurenceb> easy with a lgg from a hab, but fairly useless
[08:15] <Laurenceb> better to aim it down and use as a sniper
[08:15] <Laurenceb> :D
[08:15] <mc_-> later on fire it from a rockoon
[08:15] <Laurenceb> ok
[08:15] <Laurenceb> thing is its a lot of weight to stick on a rockoon
[08:15] <Laurenceb> having said that knowone has tried to make a lightweight one
[08:16] <Laurenceb> using CF overwrapped alu you may be able to get very light
[08:16] <mc_-> a CF tube would be light
[08:16] <Laurenceb> also it its only fire once
[08:16] <Laurenceb> - remove the couplings
[08:18] <mc_-> the altitude could be verified by reflecting radio signals off it
[08:19] <Laurenceb> or an led
[08:19] <Laurenceb> its rather too small
[08:19] <Laurenceb> maybe a deployable antenna...
[08:19] <Laurenceb> but thats rather hard given the accel
[08:20] <mc_-> a length of wire tuned to a frequency
[08:20] <Laurenceb> but it has to deploy
[08:21] <mc_-> spring wire would uncoil itself
[08:21] <Laurenceb> maybe its possible... but rather hard
[08:21] <Laurenceb> its need to be inside some sort of spigot
[08:21] <mc_-> yes
[08:21] <Laurenceb> maybe PTFE
[08:22] <Laurenceb> two pieces
[08:22] <Laurenceb> the accel would compress them together, then they would rebound upon leaving the barrel
[08:22] <Laurenceb> uncouling the wire
[08:22] <Laurenceb> but the wire may weld itself together in a coil
[08:25] <mc_-> i think it would uncoil itself slowly in the thin air
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[08:26] <Laurenceb> not if it was welded together
[08:28] <mc_-> can be tested on the ground
[08:29] <Laurenceb> yeah
[08:30] <Laurenceb> you still have to build a pretty powerful Rockoon to get to 200Km or so to fire the LGG
[08:30] <Laurenceb> weras you could just go all the way to orbit
[08:30] <Laurenceb> have you seen my cubesat launch design?
[08:32] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/50931
[08:34] <mc_-> will need to switch on pc
[08:35] <mc_-> phone cant display image in hi res
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[08:44] <rjharrison> hi edmoore
[08:49] <mc-> Laurenceb, see you proposed design, lots of do to get it airborne
[08:49] <Laurenceb> yes
[08:50] <mc-> I agree, OTRAG is the way to go
[08:50] <Laurenceb> its OTRAG with composites and a hab
[08:51] <Laurenceb> also a concetric tank arrangement, He pressurisation, graphite nozzle and easier to obtain oxidiser
[08:51] <Laurenceb> as your not flying with a crazy number of modules, you need attitude control
[08:51] <mc-> Composite rockoon OTRAG - CROTRAG
[08:52] <Laurenceb> lol
[08:53] <Laurenceb> ok thats what it'll have to be called from now on
[08:53] <Laurenceb> :P
[08:54] <Laurenceb> explosive bolts for the seperation are a bit hard to find
[08:54] <mc-> bit of BP would do as explosive
[08:55] <mc-> got to go now, cya
[08:55] <Laurenceb> the 7 module system would have a launch weight of ~135Kg
[08:55] <Laurenceb> cya
[08:56] <mc-> not too bad at all
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[09:12] <rjharrison> edmoore_: is launch still on today?
[09:13] <edmoore_> should be - there is a small doubt re: helium
[09:14] <rjharrison> oh dear
[09:15] <rjharrison> I would have left you mine if I had known
[09:15] <rjharrison> Ir is it the access to it
[09:15] <rjharrison> or
[09:21] <edmoore_> access to it. am going to try and sort it out now
[09:21] <edmoore_> bbl
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[10:14] Action: SpeedEvil ponders names for Laurenceb's creation.
[10:14] <SpeedEvil> Black Sparrow.
[10:14] <SpeedEvil> Black Ni!
[10:15] <Laurenceb> haha
[10:15] <Laurenceb> Ni
[10:15] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: how does the rollago deal with reentry though?
[10:15] <Laurenceb> NI
[10:15] <Laurenceb> hmm
[10:15] <Laurenceb> well nasa origionally contemplated them for reentery
[10:15] <SpeedEvil> (black arrow and knight were the UK space program)
[10:15] Action: Laurenceb is working on solar thermal airship sim code
[10:16] <Laurenceb> I think I've worked out how to make it practical
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> I have doubts.
[10:16] <Laurenceb> -variable ISP
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> mainly on the assembly
[10:16] <Laurenceb> start low then go high once out of the atmosphere
[10:16] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:16] <Laurenceb> I'm ignoring that
[10:16] <Laurenceb> :P
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> that makes it easier.
[10:16] <Laurenceb> hehe
[10:16] <Laurenceb> assuming 2.5um aluminised mylar
[10:17] <Laurenceb> with 50% efficiency
[10:17] <Laurenceb> and an airship with drag coefficient of 0.1
[10:17] <Laurenceb> keeping it < mach 0.6 below 90Km
[10:17] <SpeedEvil> IIRC airships are really quite high drag
[10:17] <Laurenceb> drag coefficient can be very low
[10:17] <SpeedEvil> oh - yeah
[10:18] <SpeedEvil> the total drag is high
[10:18] <SpeedEvil> the coefficient can be low
[10:18] <Laurenceb> wikipedia ways 0.1 for a smooth sphere at Re=10^6
[10:20] Action: SpeedEvil just woke up.
[10:20] <SpeedEvil> trying to get up energy to get out of bed for coffee.
[10:20] <Laurenceb> hmm what will the reynolds number be...
[10:22] <Laurenceb> looks like of the order of 10^5
[10:22] <Laurenceb> thats cool
[10:22] <Laurenceb> the big problem is taking off...
[10:24] Action: SpeedEvil has made the epic journey.
[10:24] Action: SpeedEvil has coffee.
[10:25] <SpeedEvil> that's only valid to M0.? though
[10:25] <Laurenceb> yeah...
[10:26] <SpeedEvil> so I suppose you have - ironically - pretty much the same problem as launching from earth - thick atmosphere.
[10:26] <SpeedEvil> what were you thinking of as diameter?
[10:27] <Laurenceb> 10m
[10:28] <SpeedEvil> So 30Kw ish?
[10:28] <Laurenceb> its airship shaped
[10:28] <SpeedEvil> ah
[10:29] <Laurenceb> tho that makes collector design a pain
[10:29] <Laurenceb> I was thinking closer to a Mw
[10:29] <Laurenceb> but yeah... if the drag coefficient of a sphere is 0.1...
[10:30] <Laurenceb> a lot simpler
[10:30] <Laurenceb> well as in maybe actually buildable
[10:32] <SpeedEvil> a Mw would mean a huge fineness ratio
[10:32] <SpeedEvil> (at 30m)
[10:33] <Laurenceb> hmm cassegrain maybe....
[10:34] <Laurenceb> cassegrain sphere design... but itd have the CofG below Cof drag
[10:35] <SpeedEvil> also - vacuum UV
[10:35] <Laurenceb> it only has to last an hour
[10:35] <SpeedEvil> oh
[10:35] <SpeedEvil> I thought you were going to INFINITY AND BEYOND!
[10:35] <Laurenceb> less in fact... I'm looking at 10 minutes
[10:35] <Laurenceb> sure
[10:36] <SpeedEvil> this is for cubesats then
[10:36] <Laurenceb> if you can once get out of the atmosphere ok, you'll be on the moon in 4 hours
[10:36] <Laurenceb> delta v is of order 30km/s
[10:37] <Laurenceb> DARPA were working on something very similar, but for LEO deployment
[10:37] Action: SpeedEvil imagines Laurenceb's future fleet of solar-thermal passenger ramjet airships.
[10:38] <Laurenceb> ramjet?
[10:38] <SpeedEvil> well - not really
[10:38] <SpeedEvil> but if you swap the H2 for air from a little compressor
[10:38] <SpeedEvil> In the low air pressure, you should be able to go at a moderate speed.
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if - if made from somewhat higher melting point polymer - this thing might reenter intact.
[10:41] <SpeedEvil> Homebase apparantly have achieved a major advance in polymers.
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[10:41] <SpeedEvil> I found today a 'heavy duty' polythene tarpaulin.
[10:41] <SpeedEvil> 0.0075mm thick
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[11:00] <Futurity> morning
[11:00] Action: SpeedEvil concedes that it's probably morning.
[11:00] <Futurity> lol
[11:01] Action: SpeedEvil backs away from the sunlight.
[11:01] <SpeedEvil> (though I need to go out and do some strimming soon)
[11:01] <Futurity> ed still doing a launch today?
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[11:13] <rjharrison> Yo edmoore are we He positive
[11:14] <rjharrison> SHOUT TO ALL HA can some one ask CUSF if they have access to the He when one of them logs in. Thanks Robert
[11:15] <Laurenceb> YO SHOUT OUT TO THE HABS
[11:15] <Laurenceb> THIS IS DJ HELIUM
[11:15] <Laurenceb> UNCH UNCH UNCH UNCH
[11:16] <rjharrison> hehe
[11:16] <rjharrison> How you doing Laurenceb
[11:16] <Laurenceb> raving
[11:16] <Laurenceb> as usualy
[11:18] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil: I have been mowing the lawn this morning so I feel quite vurtious
[11:18] Action: SpeedEvil confiscates Laurenceb's glowsticks.
[11:18] <rjharrison> virtuous
[11:18] Action: SpeedEvil has a 'new' stihl strimmer.
[11:18] <Laurenceb> voluptuous
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> from ebay.
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> Looking round the net - there are lots of comments like 'I want a new strimmer, but I can't justify it as my stihl fs80 won't die, and I'm using it 40h/week
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> It even has a nice hedgetrimmer attachment that I want.
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> But even on ebay, that goes for 250 quid
[11:20] <Laurenceb> does it have a gearbox?
[11:20] <Laurenceb> or flexi line?
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> flexi-line, or a tri-bladed brush-cutter, or a sawblade
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> I've got flexi-line, which works fine for me.
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[11:29] Action: Laurenceb used to have a brushcutter
[11:29] <Laurenceb> got stolen :(
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[11:30] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ethicalsuperstore.com/products/efergy/efergy-elite-wireless-energy-monitor/
[11:30] <SpeedEvil> err
[11:33] <Laurenceb> hmm this is interesting...
[11:34] <Laurenceb> I think you need a 2 stage airship
[11:34] <Laurenceb> practically you can get to about 5Km/s with a spherical one from 45Km
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:34] <Laurenceb> unless theres some art to the ISP
[11:34] <Laurenceb> I'm using a continuously variable ISP
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> what ISP were you assuming?
[11:35] <Laurenceb> between 250 and 750
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> where is the H2 stored?
[11:35] <Laurenceb> in a tank
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> 250 seems very low
[11:35] <Laurenceb> on liquid H2
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> oh
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> you're energy limited?
[11:35] <Laurenceb> thats deliberate
[11:35] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:36] <Laurenceb> the limiting factor is the mylar
[11:36] <Laurenceb> 1.3Kw/m^2, and ~2 grams/m^2
[11:36] <Laurenceb> you have to lower the ISP to make it do anything other than shift up a few meters :P
[11:37] <SpeedEvil> I assume you ramp up ISP as g drops
[11:37] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:37] <Laurenceb> its ramped up to 750
[11:38] <Laurenceb> I had a control loop on my simulated airship adjusting the isp to keep G around 2
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> what exchanger temp is that
[11:38] <Laurenceb> not sure if thats a good idea... its certainly sub optimal
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> I think that's too high - at the end
[11:38] <Laurenceb> nope
[11:39] <Laurenceb> cant remember the temp, but 1200 is possible
[11:39] <SpeedEvil> maybe something like 'keep to g/.5' or something
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[11:40] <sbasuita> Do I need to consider anything extra if I make my yagi boom out of metal?
[11:41] <SpeedEvil> for each ISP at each interval, compute fuel used per delta-v minus gravity losses, and pick the best ISP
[11:41] Action: SpeedEvil wonders if that works
[11:41] Action: SpeedEvil smells local minima.
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: I know at least you need to insulate from the elements - unsure if it goes into the calculations though
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[11:43] <Laurenceb> hmm just a cassigrain sphere design can reach 2.7Km/s
[11:43] <Laurenceb> apogee at ~1000Km altitude
[11:44] Action: Laurenceb ponderes variable geometery airship
[11:45] <Laurenceb> it really feels the drag - up to about 100Km, but it breaks out and starts accelerating into space before running out of fuel
[11:45] <Laurenceb> pretty impressive
[11:46] <SpeedEvil> you're turning down the attempted accelleration until you get free of the atmosphere?
[11:47] <Laurenceb> nope... havent got that far, just rewritten it for a cassigrain sphere design
[11:47] <Laurenceb> I allowed 50% energy loss
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> that may be a large performance gain
[11:48] <Laurenceb> hmm I'm struggling to see why stagin works....
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[11:48] <Laurenceb> it must work... dut I dont see the machanism with solar thermal airships
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> as even if you spend twice as long in the atmosphere, at 1/3 of the thrust, you use 2/3 of the fuel
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> (750 vs 250)
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> less mass to accellerate
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> but - if your main mass is tankage, ...
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> If you're talking LH2 as a fuel, the tank mass could be quite low indeed
[11:50] <Laurenceb> the main mass is mylar
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> the fundamental is that once you get over being energy limited - being in space
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> or in orbit at least
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> then you want to be dragging round as little mass as possible
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> this may mean that dropping the large collector makes sense, and pulsing a small engine
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> s/makes/may make/
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> (engine temp reaches Tmax - run a slug of fuel through it till it gets to 0.8*Tmax)
[11:53] <Laurenceb> hmm... otrag cluster of solar thermal airships?
[11:53] <Laurenceb> :P
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> also
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> you start of at g=1.1, by adding a early drop-tank
[11:55] <Laurenceb> the thing is you can break out of the atmosphere and get a few Km/s with sensible figures for the design...
[11:55] <Laurenceb> so it looks very promising
[11:56] <Laurenceb> but "single airship to orbit" looks tricky if not impossible
[11:56] <Laurenceb> with some clever tricks with the alignment it way be possible to reach a parking orbit then boost up slowly
[12:04] <Laurenceb> hehe its renetering and oscillating now
[12:04] <Laurenceb> - totally unrealistic of course
[12:05] <SpeedEvil> yes - I mean that if you start at G=2 - then, you can easily take along another 70% of your total mass as fuel
[12:05] <SpeedEvil> propellant
[12:05] <SpeedEvil> in a tank you drop once it's used
[12:05] <SpeedEvil> and 'start' at 2g at several tens of Km up
[12:07] <Laurenceb> hmm the velocity is quite interesting
[12:07] <Laurenceb> starts with a gentle accel to ~30m/s then drops off as we lose lift to 10m/s for a bit, then climbs exponentially
[12:08] <Laurenceb> to 2.7km/s after 20 minutes
[12:08] <SpeedEvil> are you going straight up?
[12:09] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:09] <SpeedEvil> you lose lift after you go about 5m/s?
[12:09] <Laurenceb> hmm I need to work out if 45Km is a sensible starting altitude...
[12:09] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:10] <Laurenceb> you may be able to start higher with 2um mylar...
[12:10] <Laurenceb> especially as its now spherical
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[12:12] <Laurenceb> hmm depends on the propellant loading
[12:12] <Laurenceb> between 45 and 50Km
[12:12] <Laurenceb> for a ~10m diameter sphere
[12:13] <Laurenceb> 5km doesnt make a big difference, your drag limited up to 100km
[12:13] <cuddykid> Hi everyone, I am going to attempt first launch in the summer! I was wondering how you guys create a cutdown device? The radios i will be using (NTX2) are 1 way only so how do you manage to get around it? Do you have another radio? Thanks
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> Personally, i like high-temp ceramic 1W resistors
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> though, they do take about a minute or two at 1W to cut-down
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> with nylon line wrapped round them
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> advantages are that it's using the resistor 100% within specs, and are 100% testable and reusable
[12:15] <cuddykid> Thanks SpeedEvil, how do you communicate with them, do you use 2 way radios?
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> no
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> typically - inthe UK - mostly radiometrix FM radios are uused
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> these are driven with low voltage 50bps telemetry feed
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> so that they emit two tones 400Hz apart
[12:16] <SpeedEvil> two frequencies
[12:16] <cuddykid> ahh, i see!
[12:16] <SpeedEvil> then, this is recieved on a 'quality' ground-side SSB reciever
[12:16] <SpeedEvil> with a proper antenna.
[12:16] <cuddykid> yagi?
[12:16] <SpeedEvil> Ranges of well over 100Km have been ggotten at 10mW, even with omni
[12:16] <cuddykid> wow!
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> (I haven't personally done a launch - referring to what others in channel hve used very sucessfully)
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> (well - I did launch a binbag full of house-gas, but I don't think that counts)
[12:17] <cuddykid> haha
[12:18] <cuddykid> Thanks for the info! Got 2 go
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[12:18] <SpeedEvil> look on wiki
[12:18] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[12:18] <Laurenceb> 2 late
[12:22] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
[12:28] <Laurenceb> hmm got to 3.2Km/s
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[12:31] Action: SpeedEvil ponders that 'over 9000' really means something.
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> (orbital, plus a bit for margins)
[12:32] <Laurenceb> heh
[12:33] <Laurenceb> 11.2 if you want to go straight up
[12:33] <Laurenceb> actually less for this as its still accelerating a long way out
[12:33] <Laurenceb> it flies at the sun ;P
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> I suppose you really want to get high enough (low g) that you can meaningfully use a chamber temp of 2KK or so
[12:42] <Laurenceb> hmm is you have a 10m diameter sphere on 1.5um mylar launched from 45Km, with 2Kg collector/engine/tank and about 30Kg of liquid H2 you can reach apogee at at least 2200Km
[12:42] <SpeedEvil> now - a light gas gun...
[12:43] <Laurenceb> heh
[12:43] <Laurenceb> peak velocity is about 4km/s at 120km
[12:45] <Laurenceb> gag so many parameters to tweak
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[12:47] <rjharrison> any cusf news?
[12:47] Action: SpeedEvil passes Laurenceb a large bag of dice.
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[12:47] <rjharrison> Hi ed
[12:47] <rjharrison> any news?
[12:47] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison: SHOUT TO ALL HA can some one ask CUSF if they have access to the He when one of them logs in. Thanks Robert
[12:47] <SpeedEvil> was the last
[12:47] <SpeedEvil> oh
[12:48] Action: SpeedEvil should probably read more carefully
[12:48] <rjharrison> SpeedEvil hehe
[12:48] <rjharrison> Just setting up antenae here
[12:49] <SpeedEvil> plural?
[12:49] <SpeedEvil> Shiny.
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[12:51] <edmoore> rjharrison: am sending strings, i think
[12:51] <edmoore> can u confirm?
[12:51] <rjharrison> yep sure
[12:51] <rjharrison> cool
[12:51] <rjharrison> we're on then
[12:51] <rjharrison> I have set up 2 radios for listening
[12:52] <edmoore> cool
[12:52] <rjharrison> have kept child up ready to put to bed at launch :)
[12:52] <edmoore> will loose it for a bit now as ferg dusts off the old software
[12:52] <edmoore> needs some tlc
[12:52] <rjharrison> np
[12:52] <rjharrison> if you paste me a sentence I will fix the xml file now
[12:52] <rjharrison> I'll just put jack to bed
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[12:58] <rjharrison> Rough estimate to launch?
[13:03] <edmoore> rjharrison: 30mins ish
[13:03] <edmoore> btw ther5e are two transponders
[13:03] <edmoore> one callsign badger
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[13:03] <edmoore> the other callsign martlet
[13:04] <edmoore> one is 425hz 7bit asciii
[13:04] <edmoore> the other is a bit higher up by a couple of khz ish, 182 shift 8-bit ascii
[13:04] <edmoore> badger is the primary
[13:04] <edmoore> martlet is for bonus points
[13:05] <rjharrison> cool
[13:06] <rjharrison> can you tune both and I will write the xml file for it
[13:06] <rjharrison> I can see badger on view.php
[13:06] <rjharrison> http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/view.php
[13:07] <rjharrison> Is there separation involved?
[13:08] <edmoore> no
[13:09] <Laurenceb> a martlet launch?
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[13:12] <rjharrison> Last question are the sentences the same?
[13:12] <MOTEK> i don't think so
[13:12] <MOTEK> don't bother with martlet
[13:12] <MOTEK> it's just a backup
[13:12] <rjharrison> Ok cool
[13:15] <MOTEK> should have a gps lock now
[13:15] <MOTEK> just plugged antenna in
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[13:16] <rjharrison> wow scientific notation
[13:16] <MOTEK> we don't have the cu prefix for nuthin :p
[13:17] <Laurenceb> and you complain about my use of radians :P
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[13:28] <MOTEK> jcoxon: ferg trying to run client on his eee
[13:28] <MOTEK> running script, says it can't connect
[13:28] <MOTEK> fergus reckon that it has something to do with trying to connect to localhost port 7362
[13:28] <MOTEK> thoughts?
[13:28] <jcoxon> MOTEK, okay, which client?
[13:28] <MOTEK> btw rjharrison dl-fldigi is now seg-faulting on my eee
[13:29] <MOTEK> latest on atlantic halo
[13:29] <jcoxon> MOTEK, urgh, i'm not even sure thats working ed
[13:29] <jcoxon> we've really gone to using dl-fldigi
[13:29] <MOTEK> it worked for me the last few flights
[13:29] <jcoxon> okay
[13:29] <jcoxon> is he running fldigi?
[13:29] <MOTEK> yes
[13:30] <jcoxon> which version?
[13:30] <jcoxon> needs to 3.10+
[13:30] <jcoxon> as xmlrpc is a new feature
[13:30] <MOTEK> ok that's the issue
[13:33] <jcoxon> MOTEK, hold on, the client can get round that
[13:34] <jcoxon> well it can if adapt it a little
[13:34] <MOTEK> ok
[13:34] <MOTEK> fly like the wind
[13:34] <jcoxon> just add --no-fldigi
[13:34] <jcoxon> and it'll ask for the location of the log file
[13:35] <jcoxon> and put in the fldigi log file
[13:41] <MOTEK> seems to work
[13:41] <MOTEK> thanks jcoxon
[13:41] <MOTEK> rjharrison: are chance of correcting that noisy data in the tracker?
[13:43] <jcoxon> MOTEK, the server has been cleared
[13:43] <jcoxon> so refresh your tracker page
[13:43] <jcoxon> oh wait, rob is testing stuff
[13:50] <rjharrison> Just cleaned server
[13:51] <rjharrison> ready foir launch
[13:51] <rjharrison> the 0 0 lat long will be rejected now
[13:51] <MOTEK> ok, balloon filling in just a sec
[13:54] <rjharrison> hehe cool
[13:54] <rjharrison> I'm excided and I'm not even there
[13:55] <rjharrison> jcoxon the client now looks at the last two points to work out the liklyhood of the new point being correct taking into account any missed packets
[13:56] <jcoxon> client or server?
[13:56] <rjharrison> Well that's the theory
[13:56] <rjharrison> server :)
[13:58] <jcoxon> cleared spacenear.us
[14:00] <rjharrison> cool
[14:01] <rjharrison> humm no gps lock
[14:05] <rjharrison> hey jcoxon have you removed out the other crap from the CUSF tx
[14:06] <jcoxon> ?
[14:06] <rjharrison> No sci. not. numbers
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[14:06] <rjharrison> no 3.433434e343
[14:06] <jcoxon> i haven't done anything
[14:07] <rjharrison> now well perhaps it was a bug
[14:07] <rjharrison> how
[14:07] <rjharrison> ho
[14:07] <jcoxon> surely its your validation code thats catching it
[14:08] <rjharrison> intersting level of accuracy on the altitud
[14:08] <rjharrison> e
[14:08] <rjharrison> 1/10 of a mm
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[14:11] <jcoxon> :-)
[14:12] <DanielRichman> Hmm. AVR Watchdog timer: good idea or not (on a flight computer)?
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[14:13] <Laurenceb> good idea
[14:14] <Laurenceb> in fact essencial
[14:14] <SpeedEvil1> pretty much
[14:14] <DanielRichman> ok
[14:14] Action: DanielRichman implements
[14:14] <DanielRichman> job done
[14:14] <Laurenceb> theres infinite ways your code could jam up
[14:14] <DanielRichman> Do you bother checking and logging if a Watchdog reset occured?
[14:15] <Laurenceb> on the mini rogallo I do
[14:15] <DanielRichman> okey
[14:15] <SpeedEvil1> code that emits a headline on reset does that
[14:15] <Laurenceb> you can stick variables in .noinit
[14:15] <rjharrison> I don't use a watchdog timer
[14:15] <Laurenceb> and recover them ofter a watchdog
[14:16] <Laurenceb> sram isnt power cycled
[14:16] <DanielRichman> Interesting
[14:16] <DanielRichman> I might just make the first byte send to the sd card contain that information
[14:16] <Laurenceb> so yo ucould log the event and then try and recover the previous state
[14:17] <SpeedEvil1> less critical for aa balloon :)
[14:17] <DanielRichman> Although it would be noticeable because the message-counter would go back to 0
[14:17] <DanielRichman> yeah. we don't really have a 'state'
[14:17] <SpeedEvil1> unless you want complex cutdowns
[14:17] <SpeedEvil1> '100km from startpoint'
[14:17] <DanielRichman> could save that to EEPROM
[14:17] <DanielRichman> then it's survive a power-on reset
[14:17] <DanielRichman> *it'd
[14:18] <DanielRichman> (if we choose to use something like that, which I doubt)
[14:19] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[14:20] <Laurenceb> theres code on the wiki for in flight landing spot prediction
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> does it work?
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> I mean - have you tried running balloon data against it
[14:22] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
[14:22] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:23] <Laurenceb> you use a layered atmospheric model
[14:23] <Laurenceb> but the CU spaceflight predictor means its not really needed
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[14:23] <SpeedEvil> cusf predictor is very nice
[14:24] Action: Laurenceb pats edmoore on the back
[14:26] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, you around to track?
[14:26] <jcoxon> and also DanielRichman and co?
[14:26] <Laurenceb> hmm my room is dreadful for tracking
[14:26] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, still got antenna problems
[14:26] <jcoxon> as this flight is coming towards you
[14:26] <Laurenceb> where does the prediction have it heading?
[14:26] <DanielRichman> ping sbasuita
[14:26] <Laurenceb> oh ok
[14:27] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, if it comes near then I can ask sbasuita
[14:27] <Laurenceb> I can only get line of sight south
[14:27] <jcoxon> burst near aylesbury
[14:27] <jcoxon> then descent down towards just north of reading
[14:28] <DanielRichman> when will it be near us, jcoxon ?
[14:28] <Laurenceb> doubt I'll hear anything, sorry
[14:28] <Laurenceb> I should get an extension cable so I can go outside to track
[14:28] <jcoxon> quite a long time
[14:28] <jcoxon> it hasn't launched yet
[14:28] <jcoxon> its on spacenear.us
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> Good luck!
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> What is it?
[14:29] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, ok. If sbasuita doesn't show up soon I'll call him
[14:29] <jcoxon> its a cusf flight
[14:29] <jcoxon> badger is onboard
[14:30] <Laurenceb> badger badge badger badger mushroom mushroom
[14:31] <MOTEK> away
[14:31] <MOTEK> bbiab
[14:34] <jcoxon> ooo she is flying
[14:35] <rjharrison> I can hear it
[14:35] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, is this the design you are using? http://www.moxonantennaproject.com/sm5jab/sm5jab_2.htm
[14:36] <jcoxon> yup
[14:36] <DanielRichman> ok. Will bear it in mind as an alternative to a yagi in the future
[14:36] <Laurenceb> rjharrison: where from?
[14:37] <Laurenceb> rjharrison: where are you?
[14:39] <jcoxon> rjharrison, 8bit or 7bit?
[14:40] <jcoxon> 7
[14:40] <jcoxon> okay i'm getting sentences
[14:40] <rjharrison> no it's false alrm
[14:40] <rjharrison> 7 bit i believe
[14:41] <rjharrison> there is a second tx offest frequency
[14:41] <rjharrison> offset
[14:41] <rjharrison> frequency?
[14:41] <jcoxon> 434.64650
[14:41] <Laurenceb> 2 badgers?
[14:42] <rjharrison> no
[14:42] <rjharrison> msomething
[14:44] <jcoxon> issue on the client
[14:44] <jcoxon> i mean the server
[14:44] <jcoxon> between badger and Badger
[14:44] <Laurenceb> its very fast
[14:45] <jcoxon> the issue is a clash between the python and dl-fldigi
[14:45] <jcoxon> as in dl-fldigi remember we swap out the tx callsign for hte real callsign from the xml
[14:45] <jcoxon> which is 'badger' not 'Badger'
[14:47] <jcoxon> ping rjharrison
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[14:55] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, i reckon you could start to hear something with an ft-790r and a whip right now
[14:55] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, I'll phone sbasuita
[14:55] <jcoxon> you'd be suprised
[14:55] <jcoxon> i'm getting a very strong signal
[14:57] <DanielRichman> here he is
[14:57] <sbasuita> ok im here
[14:57] <sbasuita> whats going on
[14:57] <DanielRichman> Nova launch, passing by reading, you should even be able to hear it now
[14:57] <DanielRichman> get listening
[14:57] <sbasuita> frequency
[14:58] <sbasuita> USB?
[14:58] <sbasuita> also where is the map?
[14:58] <DanielRichman> http://spacenear.us/
[14:58] <jcoxon> its not near you
[14:58] <jcoxon> but it gets a good LOS due to its altitude
[14:58] <sbasuita> what frequency?
[14:58] <DanielRichman> There's two transmitters
[14:59] <sbasuita> and is it upper or lower sideband?
[14:59] <DanielRichman> you want the badger one
[14:59] <jcoxon> 434.64744
[14:59] <jcoxon> usb
[14:59] <DanielRichman> dl-fldigi will tell you
[14:59] <DanielRichman> it downloads information ;)
[14:59] <jcoxon> just use your ears first
[14:59] <sbasuita> crackling....
[15:00] <DanielRichman> aerial out the window?
[15:00] <sbasuita> can hear a faint tone
[15:00] <sbasuita> changes in pitch with radio frequency
[15:00] <sbasuita> so that's probably it
[15:00] <jcoxon> the whip is slightly directional
[15:00] Action: Laurenceb has nothing
[15:00] <jcoxon> so move it around
[15:00] <DanielRichman> you could try the second frequency
[15:01] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, grab a compass and check the map :)
[15:01] <jcoxon> oh teh 2nd frequencey is pretty much next to the first
[15:01] <DanielRichman> It's northeast of you
[15:01] <jcoxon> and they are getting closer
[15:01] <sbasuita> judging by google maps i just have to face to the back of my house ;)
[15:01] <sbasuita> its a whip so...
[15:01] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, yes but there might be a wall in the way
[15:01] <jcoxon> go out side
[15:02] <DanielRichman> exactly
[15:02] <sbasuita> definitely hearing beeps
[15:02] <jcoxon> i have my antenna attached to my window
[15:02] <sbasuita> i'm going for a walk....
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[15:03] Nick change: MOTEK -> CUSF_Car
[15:03] <CUSF_Car> brrrrm
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> Nice and slow ascent
[15:04] <CUSF_Car> aye - maybe too slow...
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> cutdown or burst?
[15:05] <CUSF_Car> cut at 31000
[15:05] <CUSF_Car> somebody worked out our average ascent?
[15:05] <sbasuita> strongest signal was on 434.6482
[15:06] <jcoxon> CUSF_Car, spacenear us is working it out
[15:06] <jcoxon> 2.3m/s
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> Too easy these days.
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> (though I think it simply does a couple of samples, so it varies a bit)
[15:07] <jcoxon> sbasuita, anything decodable?
[15:08] <sbasuita> jcoxon, maybe just
[15:08] <CUSF_Car> ta - slower than we were going for...
[15:08] <sbasuita> jcoxon, i doubt it tbh
[15:08] <sbasuita> i'm already at the highest ground for a while around
[15:08] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: what frequency?
[15:09] <jcoxon> 434.64744
[15:09] <jcoxon> sbasuita, wait a bit it should get stronger and stronger
[15:10] <sbasuita> jcoxon, ok
[15:10] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
[15:11] <jcoxon> CUSF_Car, they are crossing
[15:12] <sbasuita> jcoxon, would you mind posting detailed downlink info?
[15:14] <jcoxon> sbasuita, as in?
[15:14] <jcoxon> what settings for fldigi?
[15:14] <sbasuita> sorry
[15:14] <sbasuita> baud rate
[15:14] <sbasuita> yeh that sort of stuff
[15:15] <jcoxon> cool
[15:15] <jcoxon> well its 425hz shift
[15:15] <jcoxon> baud rate 50
[15:15] <jcoxon> 7bit ascii
[15:15] <sbasuita> where's the predicted landing then?
[15:15] <jcoxon> parity none
[15:15] <jcoxon> stop bits 1
[15:15] <sbasuita> cool
[15:15] <jcoxon> ummm reading
[15:15] <sbasuita> oh wow
[15:16] <rjharrison> near nerbury
[15:16] <rjharrison> Newbury
[15:16] <rjharrison> Reading
[15:16] <rjharrison> Unless they have cutdown
[15:17] <jcoxon> rjharrison, you getting this?
[15:17] <Laurenceb> with that low ascent rate?
[15:20] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, could you bring those battery converters to school tomorrow?
[15:20] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, yah
[15:20] <sbasuita> cool : )
[15:21] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, just writing the code for the tricolour led now :)
[15:21] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, what does it do?
[15:21] <DanielRichman> two leds in one case
[15:21] <DanielRichman> so it can be off, red, yellow or green
[15:21] <sbasuita> ooh, crazy point on the tracker :P
[15:21] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, obviously. So you're just doing status on it?
[15:22] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, yeah. At normal power on it flashes off/red, if it was a bad reset (ie watchdog or brown-out) then it flashes off/yellow
[15:22] <DanielRichman> if it's all ok and just waiting for a fix it's yellow/red
[15:22] <DanielRichman> if it had a fix but lost it it's green/red
[15:22] <DanielRichman> if it has a fix but something else is wrong it/s green/yellow
[15:22] <DanielRichman> and if all is good its green/off
[15:22] <sbasuita> nice
[15:23] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, what did you do about the temperature thing
[15:23] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, I found a fix anyway
[15:23] <sbasuita> cool
[15:23] <DanielRichman> just had to add an extra sms_status
[15:23] <rjharrison> aaahhhhh my first bad point
[15:26] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: http://pastebin.com/d3a9d4610
[15:26] <Laurenceb> - very rough code, for v thin mylar foil
[15:31] <jcoxon> sbasuita, anything on the radi?
[15:31] <jcoxon> radio?
[15:31] <sbasuita> jcoxon, i'll go outside again
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[15:32] <jcoxon> just find a north facing window
[15:32] <jcoxon> it won't matter too much
[15:32] <edmoore> baCK
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: not feeling like code ATM - been doing too much gardening.
[15:33] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> And being annoyed at Stihl.
[15:34] <Laurenceb> thats based on some silly 1um mylar, but with commercial 5um aluminised mylar and 1.5um clear it work for a suborbital hop to 400Km or sop
[15:34] <Laurenceb> annoying?
[15:34] <rjharrison> Who is listening on the radio?
[15:34] <Laurenceb> flooded it?
[15:34] <Laurenceb> moi
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> (for not supplying manuals online, so I can find out how to aadjust this strimmer for proper idle speed
[15:34] <Laurenceb> and hearing fuzzzzz
[15:34] <edmoore> rjharrison and jcoxon , I lost some tracks, whoops
[15:34] <rjharrison> Loud and clear here in yorkshire
[15:34] <edmoore> freq drifted
[15:34] <edmoore> should be back on it now
[15:34] <rjharrison> Np we have it covered
[15:34] <jcoxon> rjharrison, you need to change the xml file
[15:35] <jcoxon> to 'Badger'
[15:35] <rjharrison> ok where is it wrong?
[15:35] <rjharrison> which field
[15:35] <rjharrison> I know that speed is wrong
[15:35] <sbasuita> jcoxon, i think it's getting decodeable now
[15:35] <sbasuita> gonna boot jaunty on my dad's laptop ; D
[15:35] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, is he gonna let you do that ?
[15:35] <sbasuita> if i can find an i386 image....
[15:36] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, aww got one in ~/iso
[15:36] <sbasuita> ; )
[15:36] <DanielRichman> grrr.
[15:36] <jcoxon> sbasuita, setup a station!
[15:36] <jcoxon> rjharrison, basically the python client will put through "Badger"
[15:36] <Laurenceb> anyone hearing it?
[15:36] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, me
[15:36] <rjharrison> one bad point so far
[15:36] <rjharrison> not too bad
[15:36] <Laurenceb> really
[15:36] <Laurenceb> awsome
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[15:37] <Laurenceb> with a whip?
[15:37] <rjharrison> Hi steve
[15:37] <jcoxon> but we with dl-fldigi are swapping Badger for badger
[15:37] <rjharrison> You going to listen in to the CUSF launch?
[15:37] <RocketBoy> yo chaps
[15:37] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, yes
[15:37] <Laurenceb> nice
[15:37] <sbasuita> hi
[15:37] <Laurenceb> what frequency?
[15:37] <rjharrison> 434.648.89 USB
[15:37] <RocketBoy> & when
[15:37] <sbasuita> 434.649 ish
[15:37] <rjharrison> 7bit 350 shift n 1
[15:38] <RocketBoy> when is it?
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[15:39] edmoore (n=edmoore@pomegranate.chu.cam.ac.uk) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[15:39] <edmoore_> ok
[15:39] <edmoore_> finally
[15:39] <edmoore_> loud and clear
[15:40] <jcoxon> one sec server issue
[15:41] <sbasuita> ; O
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[15:46] <edmoore_> so something is up with the model
[15:47] <edmoore_> MOTEK: what are the cutdown criteria?
[15:49] <edmoore_> RocketBoy: we followed the model and filled to neutral - was aiming for about 4m/s I think
[15:54] <edmoore_> anybody out there?
[15:54] sbasuita_laptop (i=56aaaa58@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f2b1a63645b1b6a9) joined #highaltitude.
[15:54] <sbasuita_laptop> hello
[15:57] <rjharrison> yep
[15:57] <rjharrison> I am edmoore_
[15:57] <edmoore_> col
[15:57] <edmoore_> ool
[15:57] <edmoore_> cool
[15:57] <edmoore_> there we go
[15:57] <rjharrison> Can I help in any way
[15:58] <edmoore_> so the chute is in drag mode currently, upside down, so the rate should increase as its effect lessens slightly
[15:58] <edmoore_> i think all is well
[15:58] <edmoore_> just running some preds on landing site - looks like a trip to swindon is on the cards
[15:58] <edmoore_> i think it will veer east any second now
[15:59] <rjharrison> oh
[15:59] <edmoore_> i mean west
[15:59] <edmoore_> veer west
[15:59] <rjharrison> yep that makes sense
[15:59] <rjharrison> You mobile atm
[15:59] <rjharrison> who is driving
[16:00] <edmoore_> no
[16:01] <edmoore_> steph is driving
[16:01] <edmoore_> fergus is mobile
[16:01] <edmoore_> i am in chu working (haha) and keeping the icon tuned in
[16:01] <edmoore_> though it seems pretty stable
[16:01] <edmoore_> icom*
[16:02] <edmoore_> got a yagi out the window, tis crystal clear
[16:03] <edmoore_> the fill toom forever
[16:03] <edmoore_> our regulator kept going unstable
[16:03] <edmoore_> so had to fill veeeeery veeeery slowly
[16:03] <edmoore_> took about 25 mins
[16:03] <edmoore_> might send it back to boc
[16:05] <edmoore_> so MOTEK is my eee in the chase car, i think
[16:05] <rjharrison> cool
[16:05] <edmoore_> don't know if anyone is manning it though
[16:05] <rjharrison> we are going to go out in a bit
[16:05] <rjharrison> I'm going to record some wav
[16:06] <edmoore_> ok
[16:06] <edmoore_> good plan
[16:09] <sbasuita_laptop> getting strings!
[16:10] <sbasuita_laptop> fragmented though
[16:10] <edmoore_> cool
[16:10] <edmoore_> sbasuita_laptop: what radio and antenna?
[16:10] <sbasuita_laptop> its jcoxon's ft790r
[16:10] <sbasuita_laptop> with a tiny whip
[16:10] <sbasuita_laptop> probs 15cm
[16:10] <sbasuita_laptop> from bracknell
[16:10] <edmoore_> ok cool
[16:11] <jcoxon> sbasuita_laptop, are you using dl-fldigi?
[16:11] <sbasuita_laptop> yes
[16:11] <sbasuita_laptop> how do i set it up?
[16:11] <jcoxon> basically you need to fill in the operator details
[16:11] <edmoore_> DATA SANITY CHECK REQUIRED AAAAAARGH
[16:11] <jcoxon> so go to configure -> operator
[16:12] <sbasuita_laptop> ok
[16:12] <sbasuita_laptop> callsign!?
[16:12] <jcoxon> or nick
[16:12] <Laurenceb> use reed solomon on the packets
[16:13] <jcoxon> nickname*
[16:14] <edmoore_> Laurenceb: FEC is an solution, yes, but makes it less accessible to, for example, sbasuita_laptop
[16:14] <Laurenceb> it doesnt have to be used
[16:14] <edmoore_> we have a source of information in that we know knowledge of balloon dynamics
[16:14] <Laurenceb> yes
[16:14] <edmoore_> we can also see if we can make a received string very close to the estimate with just a small hamming distance
[16:15] <DanielRichman> When we launch we're going to put XOR checksums on the end of each string
[16:15] <DanielRichman> so it's all still ascii
[16:15] <DanielRichman> but you can detect errors
[16:15] <Laurenceb> I put reed solomon code up on the wiki... the problem is it doesnt like missing characters
[16:15] <Laurenceb> yeah I always use checksums at least
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[16:16] <Laurenceb> I was planning to write my own decoder from scratch... but then discovered ICs that appear to be just the ticked for integrated comms
[16:16] <Laurenceb> so I'm going to fly the UM12 modules from sparkfun
[16:16] <jcoxon> ping natrium42
[16:16] <rjharrison> edmoore_: seem to be tracking just fine here in yorshire
[16:16] <edmoore_> cool, very nice
[16:16] <rjharrison> Ising roof mounted vertical
[16:17] <sbasuita_laptop> jcoxon: ok my details are in
[16:17] <rjharrison> using
[16:17] <edmoore_> you should take a photo of 'the beast'
[16:17] <jcoxon> sbasuita_laptop, okay
[16:18] <edmoore_> dynamics is a checksum that uses up no extra bandwidth, lb!
[16:18] <jcoxon> you might need to restart the client
[16:18] <edmoore_> just trying to attack it from a more fundamental information theoretic pov
[16:18] <jcoxon> sbasuita_laptop, http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/loggers.php
[16:22] <edmoore_> aha, the kick west
[16:22] <sbasuita_laptop> getting really good strings now
[16:23] <jcoxon> sbasuita_laptop, you haven't posted anything yet though
[16:23] <sbasuita_laptop> jcoxon: =/
[16:23] <sbasuita_laptop> $$Badger,8640,15:22:57,51.6778,-0.587336,16206.7,1,9,0,0,0 $$Badger,8652,15:23:07,51.6777,-0.587612,16244.6,3,9,0,0,0 $$Badger,8664,15:23:22,51.6777,-0.587815,16281.5,0,9,0,0,0 $$Badger,8677,15:23:3
[16:23] <sbasuita_laptop> : )
[16:23] <jcoxon> hmmm the reason why its not posting is that its looking for \n
[16:24] <sbasuita_laptop> i'm getting newlines on fldigi
[16:24] <jcoxon> hmmmm
[16:24] <sbasuita_laptop> i think mibbit destroyed them
[16:24] <jcoxon> oh your system clock is off
[16:24] <sbasuita_laptop> 3.24pm
[16:24] <sbasuita_laptop> oh right
[16:24] <sbasuita_laptop> livecd
[16:24] <DanielRichman> sbasuita_laptop, be careful with the system clock
[16:24] <sbasuita_laptop> xD
[16:24] Action: sbasuita_laptop installs ntp
[16:25] <DanielRichman> sbasuita_laptop, you wanna be careful
[16:25] <DanielRichman> casper deliberatly has a script that stops it accessing hardware clock
[16:25] <DanielRichman> because it messes things up for windows
[16:25] <DanielRichman> badly
[16:25] <sbasuita_laptop> =/
[16:25] <DanielRichman> well, not that badly
[16:25] <DanielRichman> but you just wanna double check the time on windows before giving your dad his laptop back
[16:25] <edmoore_> i must say, I RATHER LIKE THIS NOT-CHASING MALARKY
[16:25] <edmoore_> whoops
[16:26] <jcoxon> haha
[16:26] <edmoore_> first time i haven't chased a cusf payloaf for donkeys
[16:27] <jcoxon> hehe
[16:27] <SpeedEvil> edmoore_: or - to make it easier $foo,1,1,1,1,1,,11,ECCmfdskfifowrgir
[16:27] <Laurenceb> what frequency are you on?
[16:27] <SpeedEvil> edmoore_: so anyone that doesn't understand it ignores
[16:27] <edmoore_> ?
[16:27] <edmoore_> Laurenceb: 648.04 USB
[16:28] <Laurenceb> yeah, drift
[16:28] <Laurenceb> - whats the drift?
[16:28] <SpeedEvil> edmoore_: error correction code as part of the string - but correcting the pure ascii
[16:28] <RocketBoy> how come martlet isn't drifting any where as near as much as badger?
[16:28] <rjharrison> martlet spewing some weird stuff out
[16:30] <edmoore_> it's less exposed, i think. Didn't put it together so not really sure
[16:30] Action: SpeedEvil misread map as saying 'amsterdam'
[16:30] <jcoxon> sbasuita_laptop, hows it going?
[16:30] <jcoxon> you still aren't submitting data
[16:30] <jcoxon> it concerns me
[16:31] <sbasuita_laptop> jcoxon: yes, i've lost the clear signal
[16:31] <sbasuita_laptop> : (
[16:31] <edmoore_> earlier I seem to remember saying 'it would be really bloody awful if badger drifts into martlet'
[16:31] <sbasuita_laptop> aha!
[16:31] <sbasuita_laptop> gotcha
[16:31] <sbasuita_laptop> signal is back
[16:31] <sbasuita_laptop> ; )
[16:32] <edmoore_> temp is going to start increasing soon though so hopefully it'll drift away again
[16:33] <jcoxon> edmoore_, we got incredibly close at one point
[16:33] <jcoxon> then badger stabalised a bit and martlett drifted way
[16:34] <edmoore_> they're in seperate places so i guess it's just different thermal environments. don't really know
[16:36] <sbasuita_laptop> think the laptop is having trouble with cpu
[16:36] <sbasuita_laptop> :S
[16:36] <edmoore_> cpu?
[16:36] <sbasuita_laptop> its old
[16:36] <edmoore_> is it steam powered?
[16:37] <DanielRichman> sbasuita_laptop, you should stream the audio to your desktop then process it there
[16:37] <DanielRichman> pulseaudio was designed for that sort of thing!
[16:37] <sbasuita_laptop> but nobody uses it
[16:37] <sbasuita_laptop> like X
[16:37] <sbasuita_laptop> ; )
[16:37] <DanielRichman> ;)
[16:37] <DanielRichman> Well
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[16:38] <DanielRichman> doesn't that linux thin client software deal use X?
[16:38] <sbasuita_laptop> probably
[16:40] <sbasuita_laptop> also can
[16:40] <sbasuita_laptop> can't get mic ijnput to output on laptop speakers
[16:41] <jcoxon> edmoore_, is there a cutdown onboard?
[16:41] <edmoore_> yes, but not being used in the way you think
[16:41] <edmoore_> it will only go off after burst
[16:42] <edmoore_> to get rid of the balloon remnants
[16:42] <jcoxon> so on the way to the top then
[16:42] <jcoxon> going to go high
[16:42] <edmoore_> yep
[16:42] <edmoore_> although she's not the lightest payload in the world
[16:42] <jcoxon> fair enough
[16:43] <jcoxon> is everyone's clients working?
[16:43] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, you need to update you operator details - your position is wrong :-)
[16:43] <edmoore_> mine seems to be. this yagi is amazing, absolutely pegging fldigi
[16:43] <edmoore_> i have pure blue background noise and red rtty
[16:43] <jcoxon> new yagi?
[16:43] <edmoore_> nope, the crap old one
[16:44] <edmoore_> but the conditions are just really good
[16:44] <edmoore_> 20km. woot
[16:44] <rjharrison> What is the balloon size ed
[16:46] <edmoore_> 1.5
[16:46] <jcoxon> actually edmoore_ your lon and lat are off as well
[16:46] <edmoore_> i know
[16:47] <rjharrison> Right off for tea see you in an hour or so
[16:47] <edmoore_> i just pulled them from out my bum
[16:47] <rjharrison> Cool
[16:47] <sbasuita_laptop> why aren't my strings being uploaded?
[16:48] <jcoxon> sbasuita_laptop, have you corrected your system clock?
[16:48] <sbasuita_laptop> yes
[16:48] <sbasuita_laptop> and restard digi
[16:48] <jcoxon> hmmm
[16:48] <jcoxon> http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/loggers.php
[16:49] <jcoxon> you last status update is off
[16:49] <jcoxon> bbl
[16:50] <sbasuita_laptop> oh crap
[16:50] <sbasuita_laptop> must have set it wrong somehow
[16:50] <sbasuita_laptop> =/
[16:55] <Laurenceb> grr why no signal :(
[16:55] <Laurenceb> what drift are you guys on?
[16:56] <sbasuita_laptop> got signal again
[16:56] <sbasuita_laptop> .6511 currently
[16:56] <sbasuita_laptop> jcoxon: how often does digi update?
[17:01] <edmoore_> Laurenceb: 434.649.49
[17:05] <Laurenceb> aha got it
[17:05] <Laurenceb> grrr stupid building
[17:06] <jcoxon> every 15min
[17:06] <Laurenceb> have to lean out of my window
[17:06] <jcoxon> sbasuita_laptop, okay you are updating correctly
[17:06] <jcoxon> now you need to turn it on
[17:06] <sbasuita_laptop> :)
[17:06] <sbasuita_laptop> how?
[17:06] <jcoxon> configure
[17:06] <jcoxon> operator
[17:06] <jcoxon> misc tab
[17:06] <jcoxon> text capture
[17:07] <jcoxon> enable detection and extraction
[17:07] <sbasuita_laptop> great
[17:07] <sbasuita_laptop> restart?
[17:07] <jcoxon> no
[17:08] <jcoxon> no need
[17:08] <jcoxon> now at the bottom of the window you should see 'extracting' in the bottom message bar
[17:09] <Laurenceb> too week to decode
[17:10] <sbasuita_laptop> jcoxon: not seeing it
[17:10] <sbasuita_laptop> in the white bit?
[17:10] <jcoxon> yeah next to Baud 50.0
[17:10] <sbasuita_laptop> nope
[17:10] <sbasuita_laptop> it is ticked
[17:11] <jcoxon> are you getting $$ at the start of teh strings
[17:11] <sbasuita_laptop> yes
[17:11] <jcoxon> have you selected badger yet?
[17:11] <jcoxon> back in the configure
[17:11] <jcoxon> operator
[17:11] <jcoxon> go to the DL Client tab
[17:11] <sbasuita_laptop> selected badger?
[17:12] <jcoxon> and seletc badger
[17:12] <sbasuita_laptop> done now
[17:12] <jcoxon> now?
[17:13] mc_- (n=zsirc@cpc2-glfd1-0-0-cust559.glfd.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[17:13] <sbasuita_laptop> jcoxon: says it
[17:13] Action: sbasuita_laptop tries to find signal again
[17:14] <jcoxon> righr i'll bbl
[17:16] <sbasuita_laptop> digi just crashed....
[17:16] <DanielRichman> OOM?
[17:16] <sbasuita_laptop> well froze
[17:16] <sbasuita_laptop> no
[17:17] <sbasuita_laptop> freeze again
[17:17] <sbasuita_laptop> and crash
[17:17] <sbasuita_laptop> at the end of a line
[17:17] <sbasuita_laptop> both times
[17:18] <DanielRichman> grab the latest version?
[17:18] <sbasuita_laptop> this is
[17:18] <DanielRichman> you should have used the windoze version
[17:18] <DanielRichman> sbasuita_laptop, check out the sauce, compile under gdb and enjoy debugging
[17:18] <sbasuita_laptop> yeh it keeps crashing at the end of every line
[17:18] <sbasuita_laptop> jcoxon: ?
[17:18] <DanielRichman> He's afk
[17:19] <sbasuita_laptop> mmm
[17:24] <sbasuita_laptop> argh
[17:24] <sbasuita_laptop> it just crashes at the end of a good line
[17:24] <sbasuita_laptop> tried rm'in .fldigi
[17:24] <sbasuita_laptop> but that didn't fix it
[17:25] <DanielRichman> rjharrison, the pages like this one: http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/view.php?id=M6JCX are broken
[17:25] <DanielRichman> it just returns an infinite stream of newlines
[17:25] <DanielRichman> sbasuita_laptop, try regressing or re-checking out the svn
[17:25] <DanielRichman> or using the windows version
[17:25] <jcoxon> sbasuita_laptop, don't use the latest revision
[17:26] <jcoxon> r53 works
[17:26] <sbasuita_laptop> ok
[17:26] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, the reason those links don't work is that with the new client there isn't any raw data
[17:26] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, ok
[17:27] <DanielRichman> but just as a heads up, the script appears to be infinite-looping
[17:27] <jcoxon> rjharrison is away
[17:27] <DanielRichman> ok
[17:27] <jcoxon> need to run it past him
[17:27] <jcoxon> we are in the middle of the upgrade
[17:27] <jcoxon> bbl
[17:34] <edmoore_> coming up on 30km
[17:34] <Laurenceb> cuttereens
[17:36] <edmoore_> it's heading for chalgrove, where I worked this summer
[17:36] <edmoore_> maybe it decided to buzz oxford
[17:36] Action: SpeedEvil wonders how fast a long thin tungsten dart with little fins on would go from 30Km.
[17:36] <edmoore_> just to remind them who's boss
[17:37] <Laurenceb> heh
[17:37] <edmoore_> burst?
[17:37] <SpeedEvil> maybe...
[17:37] <edmoore_> yep looks like it
[17:37] <edmoore_> she's burst
[17:37] <SpeedEvil> indeed
[17:37] <SpeedEvil> whee!
[17:37] <edmoore_> oh well, nearly made 30k
[17:38] <edmoore_> not bad for a fat bird
[17:38] <SpeedEvil> Stil accellerating at 1G
[17:38] <SpeedEvil> ish
[17:38] <SpeedEvil> oh - no
[17:38] <SpeedEvil> 34m/s - not bad.
[17:38] <edmoore_> i have it raw
[17:39] <edmoore_> she'll probably land in reading
[17:39] <edmoore_> that's no use
[17:39] <jcoxon> edmoore_, lost signal?
[17:39] <edmoore_> nope, still clear
[17:39] <edmoore_> oh shit
[17:39] <edmoore_> no
[17:39] <edmoore_> just lost it
[17:40] <RocketBoy> just carrier
[17:40] <jcoxon> martlett is still running
[17:40] <edmoore_> just carrier
[17:40] <edmoore_> yeah
[17:40] <edmoore_> i guess that's why we have backups
[17:40] <jcoxon> infor for martlett?
[17:40] <edmoore_> 8 bit 180 hz space
[17:41] <edmoore_> no lock
[17:41] <edmoore_> how ironic
[17:41] <jcoxon> could it be the cutdown?
[17:41] <sbasuita> um
[17:41] <sbasuita> is the signal broken?
[17:41] <sbasuita> :S
[17:41] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: at least badgert is
[17:41] <DanielRichman> the computer's gone down, not the signal
[17:41] <sbasuita> what is the freqeuncy for the other one?
[17:41] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita 'carrier only' means that the data is unmodulated
[17:41] <sbasuita> yeh, i've just got a tone
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: you could track it with a yagi - forex
[17:42] <sbasuita> not our yagi ; P
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: biut it's _MUCH_ harder without GPS signals.
[17:42] <sbasuita> what is the martlet freq/baud.. etc?
[17:42] <edmoore_> 50 baud
[17:42] <sbasuita> freq?
[17:42] <edmoore_> 182 hz space
[17:43] <edmoore_> you should be able to hear it a lot better than me sbasuita_laptop
[17:43] <edmoore_> about 1khz higher than badger
[17:43] <sbasuita> got it
[17:44] Action: SpeedEvil goes out for some moments.
[17:44] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, did you fix the dl-client for your laptop?
[17:44] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, dunno
[17:44] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, i've installed the old r47 onto my desktop
[17:45] <sbasuita> long wire to the radio
[17:45] <DanielRichman> ah
[17:45] <sbasuita> not long enough
[17:45] <DanielRichman> out the window?
[17:45] <sbasuita> : (
[17:45] <sbasuita> no
[17:45] <sbasuita> i'm on the wrong side of the house
[17:45] <DanielRichman> but you're still getting the signal?
[17:45] <jcoxon> sbasuita which version were you using on the latptop?
[17:45] <edmoore_> right side of the house would be good
[17:45] <sbasuita> jcoxon, latest
[17:46] <sbasuita> the signal comes and goes
[17:46] <sbasuita> its probably rotating
[17:46] <sbasuita> periodic amplitude changes
[17:46] <sbasuita> fldigi isn't liking it at any rate
[17:46] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, did your dad want his laptop back?
[17:46] <jcoxon> sbasuita, yeah i broke the latest one
[17:46] <jcoxon> hence why it didnt work
[17:47] <jcoxon> sorry
[17:47] <DanielRichman> lol
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[17:47] <sbasuita> i'm not going to be able to decode this thing
[17:47] <sbasuita> signal isn't constant enough
[17:47] <jcoxon> i reckon we've got another 9 minutes before landing
[17:48] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, can you go outside again with the laptop to decode?
[17:48] <jcoxon> there isn't any data to really decode
[17:49] <jcoxon> just RMC strings with no lock
[17:49] <DanielRichman> no lock??
[17:49] <DanielRichman> oh right
[17:49] <DanielRichman> no gps lock
[17:49] <DanielRichman> ah.
[17:49] <DanielRichman> that's unlucky
[17:50] <sbasuita> going outside agian now
[17:51] <jcoxon> the carrier has drifted massively down
[17:54] <sbasuita_laptop> trying to find it again...
[17:54] <sbasuita_laptop> jcoxon: how far.
[17:54] <jcoxon> i'm decoding martlett
[17:54] <sbasuita_laptop> jcoxon: frequency?
[17:55] <jcoxon> beginning to lose it
[17:56] <jcoxon> 434.64884
[17:56] <sbasuita_laptop> barely hearing it
[17:56] <jcoxon> keep on it
[17:56] <edmoore_> i have marlet loud and clear
[17:56] <edmoore_> shame it doesn't have a lock
[17:56] <jcoxon> when it lands it might get a lock
[17:56] <edmoore_> let's hope
[17:57] <edmoore_> they are currently about 4km from where the predictor reckons it'll come down
[17:57] <jcoxon> ooo stronger now
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> Oldskool foxhunt I guess.
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> Unless it gets lock
[17:57] <edmoore_> I kind of hope it doesn't come back
[17:58] <edmoore_> it's the same payload as nova 11
[17:58] <edmoore_> heap of old crap thrown together in about 27 minutes
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:59] <edmoore_> ok I'm beginning to loose martlet now
[18:00] <edmoore_> burst almost exactly 20 mins ago
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[18:00] <edmoore_> must be 10 or less km up now, I'd have thought
[18:00] <jcoxon> i calculated it to be down by now
[18:00] <jcoxon> at 25m/s descent
[18:00] <jcoxon> which was what i had worked it out as
[18:00] <edmoore_> it slows down though
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> lots
[18:00] <jcoxon> true
[18:01] <edmoore_> we're talking 100m/s at the top and 5 at the bottom
[18:01] <SpeedEvil> Started out at 38 or so, and dropping
[18:02] <edmoore_> either way, fergus is on chase crew so it should come back
[18:02] <jcoxon> carrier drifting back up
[18:03] <edmoore_> warming up again
[18:03] <edmoore_> got badger's carrier nice and clear too
[18:04] <edmoore_> sounds like it's about to take off
[18:04] <edmoore_> so the swing on badger is much higher - think it might collide
[18:04] <sbasuita_laptop> i've got two sets of rtty and a carrier...
[18:05] <edmoore_> two!?
[18:06] <edmoore_> sbasuita_laptop: elaborate
[18:06] <sbasuita_laptop> *shrug*
[18:06] <edmoore_> as a matter of some urgency
[18:06] <sbasuita_laptop> well there was a low down carrier
[18:06] <sbasuita_laptop> very strong
[18:06] <sbasuita_laptop> then higher pitch rtty
[18:06] <sbasuita_laptop> martlet
[18:06] <sbasuita_laptop> then two tones further up in pitch
[18:06] <edmoore_> ok, you have to be clear. you have one single rtty stream, or do you have two?
[18:06] <sbasuita_laptop> two
[18:06] <sbasuita_laptop> but one is gone
[18:07] <edmoore_> gone where
[18:08] <sbasuita_laptop> out of existance
[18:08] <sbasuita_laptop> only lasted a little bit
[18:08] <sbasuita_laptop> now just have the carrier and martlet above it
[18:08] <edmoore_> maybe badger is trying to turn on again
[18:08] <sbasuita_laptop> though fldigi is completely failing to decode anything
[18:09] <edmoore_> that's a bit suprising
[18:09] <edmoore_> i am still decoding here in cambridge
[18:09] <edmoore_> the icom isn't that much more sensitive than the yeasu
[18:09] <sbasuita_laptop> but i've got a tiny whip
[18:09] Action: sbasuita_laptop scans up and down frequencies
[18:09] <edmoore_> and the yagi should't make that much difference given the 10:1
[18:09] <edmoore_> 10:1 relative distance from payload, that is
[18:10] <edmoore_> oh well, you can hear it at least
[18:10] <edmoore_> it's still alive
[18:10] <edmoore_> am loosing martlet now infact
[18:10] <RocketBoy> I still cave the carrier but martlet has gone for me
[18:11] <edmoore_> i still have badger carrier pretty clear - at least they can hunt it down
[18:11] <edmoore_> then stamp on it
[18:11] <edmoore_> so it can never been flown ever again
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[18:12] <RocketBoy> badger carrier gone for me now
[18:12] <edmoore_> got another martlet string through
[18:14] <edmoore_> should be down in the next 10 mins
[18:14] <sbasuita_laptop> got the other rtty again
[18:14] <sbasuita_laptop> its up high
[18:15] <sbasuita_laptop> wider than martlet
[18:15] <edmoore_> which one?
[18:15] <sbasuita_laptop> badger?
[18:15] <edmoore_> ok, is it decoding?
[18:15] <sbasuita_laptop> no
[18:15] <sbasuita_laptop> i cant even get martlet
[18:15] <sbasuita_laptop> fldigi is printing nothing
[18:15] <DanielRichman> sbasuita_laptop, you can get fldigi to dump audio to a file.
[18:15] <edmoore_> what freq relaitve to martlet?
[18:15] <DanielRichman> see if you can get some of the rtty
[18:16] <RocketBoy> jcoxon:what is the current spec for checksums in DL data
[18:16] <sbasuita_laptop> its really really weak
[18:16] Action: sbasuita_laptop tries to find it again
[18:16] <edmoore_> ok, lost everything now
[18:16] <DanielRichman> get some headphones
[18:17] <sbasuita_laptop> lost it
[18:17] <sbasuita_laptop> got martlet
[18:17] <edmoore_> lost it too
[18:17] <edmoore_> could well be down
[18:18] <DanielRichman> Does anyone have a model for drift vs. temperature? Just curious, 'cause in absence of gps you could use it to find altitude?
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: it's not reliable
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: it varies from transmitter to transmitter
[18:18] <sbasuita_laptop> there's badger again
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: and supply volts
[18:18] <DanielRichman> sbasuita_laptop, get wavs
[18:18] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, ah, ok
[18:18] <sbasuita_laptop> about 2.0 up whaterver scale fldigi uses
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: and internal temperatures and external temps don't really do anyything
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: I mean correlate tightly
[18:20] <edmoore_> sbasuita_laptop: you sure?
[18:20] <sbasuita_laptop> no
[18:20] <sbasuita_laptop> tbh i'm not
[18:20] <edmoore_> how wide?
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[18:21] <sbasuita_laptop> edmoore_: about the same as badger was
[18:21] <sbasuita_laptop> edmoore_: it comes and goes
[18:21] <edmoore_> ok, good info, thank you
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> So - we're looking for hillsides facing sbasuita_laptop?
[18:22] <sbasuita_laptop> are people chasing currently?
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[18:23] <sbasuita_laptop> i'm losing everything now
[18:24] <edmoore_> they're on the ground with yagi, within a coup,e hundred meters
[18:25] <edmoore_> they went to the site i predicted and fergus things he might have seen it come down
[18:25] <edmoore_> they're just on foot
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> :)
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> based solely on the prediction?
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> these things are getting good.
[18:27] <edmoore_> yes
[18:27] <edmoore_> i mean i made the prediction once it had burst
[18:27] <edmoore_> using a couple of decent data points
[18:27] <sbasuita> ok so i've lost it completely
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[18:32] <edmoore_> well, thank you chapses
[18:32] <edmoore_> they've got a lock from badger
[18:32] <edmoore_> they're 2.2km away
[18:33] <edmoore_> 51.4452N, 1.10844W
[18:33] <edmoore_> and I am going to grab a bite to eat before hall closes
[18:33] <edmoore_> back in 5
[18:33] <Futurity> hi
[18:35] <Laurenceb> nice :P
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[18:36] <Futurity> Hi, I take it that the payload has landed?
[18:37] <Futurity> looking at the tracker there are a log of trees around the last recorded position
[18:38] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: I "solved" the solar airship to orbit problem - you can do it if you use <1um mylar film, then launch from 45Km using liquid hydrogen. The flight profile is weird, you spend the first 10 miutes getting through the atmosphere at ~50m/s then accel to 7.4Km/s over the next 10 minutes
[18:38] <Laurenceb> hopefully itsd not in one of them :P
[18:38] <SpeedEvil> you're turning the ISP up to max initially
[18:38] <SpeedEvil> ?
[18:38] <grummund> hi, may i ask where you guys are flying today?
[18:38] <Laurenceb> no
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> Futurity: looking at the tracker you may also see that it's at 30Km
[18:39] Action: sbasuita wishes he was flying
[18:39] <Laurenceb> it starts a ~400 then yoes up to ~1000 as you leave the atmosphere
[18:39] <Laurenceb> ramps up between 100 and 200km
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: try to start high - to save fuel
[18:39] <Laurenceb> the weird thing is you could do this with something a few meters in diameter
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> even if it means you do 30m/s, not 50
[18:40] <Laurenceb> it just wouldnt be bouyant at 45Km
[18:40] <sbasuita> google maps shows it landed on a bit of hill
[18:40] <sbasuita> which is nice
[18:40] <Laurenceb> its close to the M40
[18:40] <sbasuita> grummund, a balloon flew from cambridge to west of reading today
[18:40] <Laurenceb> that area is quite spectacular
[18:41] <grummund> sbasuita: ah, cool. ;)
[18:41] <Laurenceb> but... a few m diameter one would be ground bouyant, cool fun to fly about
[18:41] <sbasuita> grummund, team currently heading towards its landing position on foot http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51.4452N%2C+1.10844W
[18:41] <Laurenceb> blasting frails of buring hydrogen
[18:44] <Futurity> For some reason I'm not seeing any position updates on http://spacenear.us/tracker/ even though it's still at 26.4km
[18:46] <sbasuita> Futurity, it has landed
[18:46] <Laurenceb> thats cuz it broke :P
[18:47] <Laurenceb> wonder how practical 0.5um mylar is ....
[18:48] <Laurenceb> theres a nasa paper on solar sails where they discuss materials
[18:49] <Laurenceb> theroretically a ~100nm sheet of aluminium will accelerate at close to 1m/s^2
[18:49] Action: SpeedEvil waits for Laurenceb to start going on about making it from 50nm beryllium.
[18:49] <Laurenceb> beryllium spheres :P
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[18:56] <jcoxon> hehe it seems to have landed in a country estate
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> in one of the 'tres, or in one...
[18:58] <jcoxon> if the coords posted are correct in englefield
[18:58] <jcoxon> http://www.englefieldestate.co.uk/home/Default.asp
[19:00] <Laurenceb> looks like it hopefully missed the trees
[19:00] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:01] <jcoxon> getting access on a sunday evening might be tricky
[19:01] <rjharrison> Hehe My great grandad put the first central heating system in the uk in to the englefield estate
[19:01] <rjharrison> Just out side of Theal
[19:01] <rjharrison> Theale
[19:02] <SpeedEvil> Aha! Turn up to service it, with the original reciept. :)
[19:04] <rjharrison> surname webb
[19:08] <Laurenceb> http://mashable.com/2009/05/30/wolfram-easter-eggs-mashable/
[19:09] <rjharrison> Infact I think he is buried about 100m from the landing spot
[19:13] <Laurenceb> hes at work forever
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[19:43] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/51005
[19:43] <Laurenceb> ^ SpeedEvil
[19:43] <Laurenceb> thats velocity v time in 50ms units
[19:45] <Laurenceb> stays at ~35m/s through the atmospher then reaches apogee at ~12MKm
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[19:57] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, your cpus are burning up!
[19:58] <DanielRichman> Yeah, I noticed that too
[19:58] <DanielRichman> In contrast to the cool blue theme - I like it
[19:59] <Laurenceb> hehe
[19:59] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, it comes with ubuntu; called clearlooks
[19:59] <Laurenceb> running some sim code
[19:59] <sbasuita> personally i think its horrible :p
[20:00] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, still. Running my cpus on max doesn't mean 70*C! You got a HP laptop or something?
[20:00] <Laurenceb> acer
[20:00] <DanielRichman> ahh
[20:00] <DanielRichman> laptops run hot
[20:00] <sbasuita> yeh
[20:00] <edmoore_> they have it
[20:00] <edmoore_> they're driving back
[20:00] <DanielRichman> If you put my old acer down on carpet it blocked the fans and it was out in about a minute
[20:00] <sbasuita> yay
[20:00] <Laurenceb> its down at 40C when its got no work
[20:00] <edmoore_> had to knock on the front door
[20:00] <DanielRichman> nice!
[20:00] <Laurenceb> heh
[20:01] <sbasuita> looks like the 'ghost' of badger was real ; )
[20:01] <DanielRichman> "Hi" "Have you noticed a flying thing arrive in your garden at 20kph?"
[20:01] <sbasuita> http://last.fm is down?
[20:02] <sbasuita> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=last.fm
[20:02] <sbasuita> twitter says so :P
[20:02] <DanielRichman> Spotify sent ninjas to take out their data centre
[20:02] <sbasuita> spotify can scrobble to them...
[20:02] <DanielRichman> lol
[20:02] <sbasuita> now how am i going to figure out which modeselektor album to get?
[20:03] <sbasuita> : (
[20:03] <DanielRichman> two tweets right next to each other
[20:03] <sbasuita> scroll down
[20:03] <DanielRichman> "Oh damn, last.fm is down"
[20:03] <DanielRichman> next one
[20:03] <DanielRichman> "GOOD! Last.fm is down!!!"
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[20:09] <SpeedEvil> 50ms?
[20:09] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: oh - meters/s
[20:09] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: not milliseconds
[20:10] <Laurenceb> 50 millisecond intervals
[20:10] <Laurenceb> of time
[20:10] <Laurenceb> then y is velocity in m/s
[20:10] <Laurenceb> you get halfway to the moon :P
[20:10] <DanielRichman> Blatantly we need to land a payload on the moon
[20:11] <DanielRichman> (and have it intact afterwards, ideally)
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: oh - right - so 100000 = 500s
[20:11] <Laurenceb> yes
[20:11] <Laurenceb> its really odd that it works so well staying so slow
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> That's just taking drag losses - nothing special
[20:12] <Laurenceb> if you could drop mirror material during the acceleration thatd get you up to exscape velocity more easily than getting stupidly thin mylar
[20:12] <Laurenceb> its fairly easy to break out of the atmosphere
[20:13] Action: SpeedEvil was wondering why the cursor numbers weren't working :)
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[20:13] <Laurenceb> this is such an odd device :P
[20:14] <Laurenceb> get A* for novelty
[20:14] <Laurenceb> :D
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> A* only if it flies.
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> B* once you build it :)
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> I do wonder what temperature of mirror plastic you'd need for it to be reentry capable.
[20:17] <Laurenceb> it works better if you use a balloon to hoist it to a high altitude than itd float at
[20:18] <Laurenceb> you could get to 50Km like that
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> what's initial t:w
[20:18] <Laurenceb> but you can launch to a few hundered km apogee from under 30Km starting point
[20:18] <Laurenceb> around 1.1
[20:19] <rjharrison> edmoore_ cool
[20:19] <Laurenceb> you lower the ISP to increase thrust
[20:19] <edmoore_> rjharrison: cool to what?
[20:19] <SpeedEvil> oh - right. I see.
[20:19] <Laurenceb> its tricky... need to work out the optimal equations, theres a lot of performance you can tweak out of it
[20:20] <Laurenceb> balance gravity, drag, and propellant losses against avlaiable solar power and mirror weight
[20:20] <SpeedEvil> So initially - you're at max thrust - I thought you could throttle down/ISP up to slow ascent a bit
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[20:20] <SpeedEvil> and save fuel
[20:20] <Laurenceb> yep
[20:21] <SpeedEvil> but if you are at max thrust to lift available fuel, that won't work
[20:22] <Laurenceb> with a 1um envelope you takeoff with about 14 times the envelope weight in propellant
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> how does scaling work? Double the diameter, halve the effective envelope thickness?
[20:23] <Laurenceb> envelope thickness is limited by mylar avaliability
[20:23] <Laurenceb> you want as thin as you can buy it
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> Obviously
[20:23] <Laurenceb> 12um aluminised and 2.5um clear is easy to obtain
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> I mean - that sets the minimum scale
[20:23] <Laurenceb> there is 1.5um clear and 5um aluminised
[20:24] <Laurenceb> if you hoist it into place with a balloon there isnt a minimum scale
[20:24] <Laurenceb> - apart from making it light enough
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> I mean the scale imposed by a given delta-v, with a given fuel fraction, with available thicknesses of foil.
[20:25] <Laurenceb> if you want it ho lift itself to 45Km it gets pretty big
[20:25] <Laurenceb> there isnt one
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> of course there is.
[20:26] <Laurenceb> its set by mass of foil/area
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> you're not making a 25um dia balloon with 12um of foil/mylar
[20:26] <Laurenceb> theoretically itd still accelerate as much
[20:27] <Laurenceb> intercepts the same amount of energy per unit mass
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> umm...
[20:27] <Laurenceb> the basic physics doesnt set a size limit
[20:27] <Laurenceb> bouyancy does
[20:27] <Laurenceb> as does reynolds number and manufacturing obviously
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> The intercepted light goes as r^2, the weight goes as r^2*film thickness
[20:29] <Laurenceb> yep
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> Neglecting any other masses than the film mass, at some point, the mass of the film rises enough that a 250ISP rocket given energy by the incoming light cannot equal this thrust
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> cannot equal the force caused by the weight in 1g
[20:29] <Laurenceb> yes
[20:30] <Laurenceb> well you can go as low as you like with the isp
[20:30] <Laurenceb> but your not going to get very far
[20:30] <SpeedEvil> I mean - assuming a given delta-v requirement
[20:30] <SpeedEvil> as above
[20:30] <Laurenceb> this 0.5um design Im simulating starts with an ISP of 550
[20:31] <Laurenceb> then increases to 1000 as it leaves the atmosphere
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> assuming a given delta-v requirement, at some point, the increasing mass fraction due to the effectively thicker film gives you a hard lower limit for a given film size
[20:32] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, you still interested in getting a ham license?
[20:32] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, yes
[20:32] <Laurenceb> hmm yeah
[20:32] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, bracknell?
[20:32] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, makes sense we do it in the same place
[20:32] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, ok i'm emailing David Ferrington M0XDF.
[20:32] <DanielRichman> what are you going to say?
[20:33] <DanielRichman> ask for details of courses?
[20:33] <Laurenceb> but this one I'm simulating is only 11m diameter
[20:33] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, yeh
[20:33] <Laurenceb> 7.5Kg mass, so it has to be lifted into position at 45Km for launch
[20:33] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, spamming my inbox with commits......
[20:34] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, sorry, but svn failed to move folder and edit file
[20:34] <DanielRichman> it broke majorly
[20:34] <Laurenceb> its only bouyant at about 30Km or a little more
[20:34] <DanielRichman> I moved the arduino-168 folder to atmega162, then edited files inside that folder, and tried to commit, and it had a fit. So now I'm making sure I don't mix moves and modifications
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: 7.5kg at 45Km is what - 10000m^3 of He?
[20:35] <edmoore_> why do you need to know if someone's hit the repo?
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> (at that pressure)
[20:35] <Laurenceb> or that order
[20:36] <DanielRichman> edmoore_, for some reason sbasuita likes to have an email whenever someone commits :X
[20:36] <Laurenceb> one idea might be to lift it into position with a mirror balloon, that aids in clearing the atmosphere
[20:36] <Laurenceb> like a sort of strap on booster
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> hehhehehhehe. He said strap-on.
[20:36] <edmoore_> we have had 100 commits since friday on this project i've been working on between three of us
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> a mirror balloon?
[20:36] <edmoore_> such is the nature of degree deadlines
[20:36] <natrium42> hey edmoore_, payload retrieved?
[20:36] <Laurenceb> only much bigger than the "2nd stage"
[20:36] <edmoore_> yep
[20:37] <natrium42> excellent!
[20:37] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: you mean a thermal-IR balloon?
[20:37] <Laurenceb> spherical mirror device type balloon
[20:37] <Laurenceb> no, same design as the airship
[20:37] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: or an actual mirror that reflects onto the first stage
[20:37] <Laurenceb> yes
[20:37] <DanielRichman> edmoore_, I don't commit *THAT* much - it's just me and sbasuita on this project, and I'm currently the only one uploading
[20:37] <DanielRichman> we're on r40 of all time
[20:37] <DanielRichman> although, having said that, my commits are quite big
[20:38] <Laurenceb> right Ive gtg, cya all, well done with the flight
[20:38] Action: sbasuita waves
[20:38] <edmoore_> we've been trying to weld our software together, so there are lots and lots of commits as we break each other's code
[20:38] <DanielRichman> what does your program do?
[20:38] Laurenceb (n=laurence@dyres221-74.surrey.ac.uk) left irc: "The day microsoft make something that doesnt suck is the day they make a vacuum cleaner"
[20:42] <edmoore_> it simulates digital logic circuits
[20:42] <edmoore_> it's a degree project in teams of three
[20:42] <edmoore_> you design a syntax to define circuits, write the scanner and parse, write the simulator, then build a gui to display everything
[20:42] <edmoore_> a lot of wxwidgets and opengl faffing.
[20:43] <edmoore_> keeps you busy for a couple of weeks after exams
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[20:44] <edmoore_> I know know more than i am at all interested in about context free grammars and EBNF. Dirty compsci stuff.
[20:45] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, CC'd you
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> edmoore_: fun.
[20:46] <edmoore_> i'm not having much fun. I'd much rather write a dynamics simulator for hobble, which I'm itching to do
[20:46] <edmoore_> rather than writing spaghetti gui code
[20:46] <natrium42> hobble!
[20:47] <sbasuita> wobble!
[20:47] <sbasuita> gobble!
[20:47] <sbasuita> bobble!
[20:47] <edmoore_> correct!
[20:47] <sbasuita> cobble!
[20:47] <sbasuita> :p
[20:47] <natrium42> :D
[20:47] <natrium42> i still say HABble
[20:47] <natrium42> :P
[20:48] <natrium42> edmoore_, is your full name edwin?
[20:48] <edmoore_> ward
[20:48] <edmoore_> if only
[20:49] <natrium42> edwin hubble...
[20:49] <edmoore_> i get it :p
[20:55] <edmoore_> rjharrison: i think we might nick your idea of connector clamps on the pcb itself
[20:55] <edmoore_> it's very good, and I like it
[20:55] <edmoore_> if that's ok :)
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> wobble!
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[22:05] <edmoore> peeps are back in cambridge now
[22:05] <edmoore> all over
[22:06] <edmoore> thank you for listening, listeners
[22:06] <natrium42> pics? :)
[22:06] <rjharrison> hehe
[22:06] <edmoore> afriad that'll have to wait - it's a sponsor one as I mentioned, and they want first dibs on the pics
[22:06] <edmoore> actually, can upload one of the camera's worth on pics
[22:07] <natrium42> at least a sample pic :)
[22:07] <rjharrison> Cool perhaps a couple of nice ones would be cool
[22:07] <rjharrison> hehe
[22:07] <rjharrison> Just watching the news with the wife
[22:07] <edmoore> anything in thr news?
[22:09] <natrium42> too many launches in UK, canada is way behind :(
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[22:14] <rjharrison> Not really General Motors bankrupt
[22:14] <rjharrison> Few more theiving MPs pissed off
[22:14] <rjharrison> The usual
[22:14] <rjharrison> Did you get any cool pics?
[22:15] <rjharrison> Did you try a UV lense on the payload?
[22:15] <rjharrison> no more questions I promise
[22:16] <natrium42> rjharrison, was your last launch with UV filter?
[22:16] <rjharrison> Yep all launches to date
[22:16] <rjharrison> I use the filter to keep the wind out of the box
[22:18] <rjharrison> natrium42: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/3572701712/in/set-72157618814637849/
[22:19] <natrium42> yeah, very nice -- looks pro :)
[22:19] <rjharrison> hehe I don't know about that :)
[22:19] <rjharrison> Lots of gaffa tape :)
[22:20] <rjharrison> So yes I guess it is pro
[22:20] <natrium42> tape is good
[22:20] <natrium42> rjharrison, have you considered zp for your next alt attempt?
[22:20] <rjharrison> hehe Don't tempt me
[22:20] <rjharrison> Yes
[22:20] <rjharrison> I would live to do a zp
[22:21] <rjharrison> love
[22:21] <rjharrison> But UK is a bit fidley
[22:21] <rjharrison> I don't think they like ZP but I may see what can me done
[22:21] <rjharrison> be
[22:22] <natrium42> mark caviezel's zps are cheaper than that 3kg latex
[22:22] <natrium42> you can have one if you want, i got 4
[22:22] <rjharrison> ooh how much ish?
[22:22] <rjharrison> Humm ok yes
[22:22] <natrium42> 200 USD a piece plus whatever i incurred in getting it over to me
[22:22] <rjharrison> Cool
[22:23] <natrium42> then again perhaps CUSF is ready to make their own and will let you have one?
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[22:44] <rjharrison> edmoore: did the cutdown work?
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[00:00] --- Mon Jun 1 2009