highaltitude.log.20090530

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[01:43] Action: SpeedEvil ponders human mfsk.
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[07:59] <Futurity> morning
[08:00] <Futurity> lovely weather today
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[08:52] <Futurity> Morning everyone
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[09:00] <edmoore__> norming all
[09:00] <edmoore__> natrium42: there may be a CUSF launch tomorrow
[09:02] <Futurity> Hi Ed
[09:02] <Futurity> do you need an extra pair of hand to help out?
[09:03] <Futurity> it's my wife's birthday, but I may be able to come along still
[09:05] <edmoore__> it's just a sponsor launch
[09:05] <edmoore__> no fun
[09:05] <edmoore__> we'll just want to get it up and down
[09:05] <edmoore__> you're welcome to come along, but it'll be business like and not very smiley
[09:05] <edmoore__> just need to get it done
[09:06] <edmoore__> but it means we can afford to pay for us to work on the proper stuff over the summer, at least.
[09:07] <edmoore__> also the launch time is a bit undefined atm!
[09:09] <edmoore__> There may be a more exciting one soon
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[09:15] <Futurity> Cool
[09:15] <Futurity> the business sponsored ones take experiments for the sponsor?
[09:15] <Futurity> or are they to advertise their name?
[09:17] <edmoore__> advertising
[09:17] <Futurity> i see
[09:17] <edmoore__> we used to fund CUSF on our overdrafts but that wasn't a very sustainable model
[09:18] <Futurity> no
[09:18] <Futurity> but I'm wondering how the advertising model works?
[09:18] <Futurity> I mean not many people will see the balloon, let alone read advertising on it
[09:18] <Futurity> is this where the arm holding a business card comes in?
[09:19] <edmoore__> yes, we don't ask millions of people to point their binoculars at the sky on a Sundat afternoon in the hope of making out something of a logo
[09:19] <Futurity> lol, i thought not
[09:19] <edmoore__> infact tomorrow's one is a bit wierd. We'll see how it pans out
[09:20] <Futurity> i was wonding if people would pay to have a bit of their dna taken to the edge of space
[09:20] <Futurity> being that the Virgin sub orbital space ship is about to take off reletively soon
[09:21] <rjharrison> Morning all
[09:21] <edmoore__> Don't really want to mess around with people's DAN
[09:21] <edmoore__> DNA*
[09:21] <Futurity> lol true
[09:22] <rjharrison> Hi Futurity
[09:22] <rjharrison> PM'ed you an email add
[09:22] <Futurity> Hi Rob
[09:22] <rjharrison> Yo edmoore
[09:23] <rjharrison> You really thinking of going up
[09:23] <edmoore__> yes
[09:23] <Futurity> i'll send you the processed image now
[09:23] <rjharrison> Cool
[09:23] <rjharrison> ob both accounts
[09:24] <rjharrison> 12:00?
[09:24] <rjharrison> Launch
[09:24] <edmoore__> no idea
[09:24] <rjharrison> JUst wanted to run a pred
[09:25] <edmoore__> you're doing it anyway
[09:25] <edmoore__> i think we'll have to give priority to CUSF IPs on that thing. I get f*cking angry when I can't get access to it
[09:26] <rjharrison> lol
[09:26] <Futurity> Photo on its way
[09:26] <Futurity> original is _b
[09:26] <Futurity> processed _c
[09:26] <rjharrison> Thanks
[09:27] <rjharrison> You need a mirror site edmoore
[09:27] <rjharrison> one for public use
[09:31] <Futurity> we've started to replicate our sites using a mixture of rsync and database replication
[09:31] <Futurity> this way if a main site goes down due to an ISP outage
[09:31] <Futurity> at least we can migrate to another ISP ASAP
[09:33] <rjharrison> Yep it's cool rsync
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[09:33] <rjharrison> I like the pictures
[09:33] <rjharrison> Shapened and the black is slightly stronger in space
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[09:34] <rjharrison> Subtle !
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[09:35] <rjharrison> Dodgy connection there ed
[09:35] <Futurity> yep
[09:35] <Futurity> the black is more black
[09:35] <Futurity> you can see the rivers etc easier
[09:36] <Futurity> normally i play around a lot more to get photos just right
[09:36] <Futurity> but here I just wanted to try out some automated options
[09:36] <Futurity> mainly to see if I could use them to process a batch / directory of photos
[09:36] <rjharrison> Hehe but when you have a few hundred it get less attrctive :)
[09:36] <Futurity> well photoshop does have a batch mode
[09:37] <Futurity> at some point we could just try it out
[09:37] <rjharrison> I tend to pull 3 pics I like and play with them
[09:37] <Futurity> see if it'll do the lot in one pass
[09:49] <edmoore_> right, am heading off to dept to work. bbl
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[10:33] <rjharrison> Hi james
[10:34] <jcoxon> hey rob
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[11:23] <alien> Would the 'spacing' lengths on http://www.fredspinner.com/W0FMS/CheapYagi/vjbcy.html be referring to the distance from an origin, or the distance to the last element?
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[11:32] <SpeedEvil> it should be approximately constant
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[11:32] <SpeedEvil> if find one with multiple elements, and check
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> notice also some spacings are the same
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[11:34] <alien> ok i'm going to assume its spacing from an origin
[11:34] <alien> picture confirms
[11:35] <alien> herabot!
[11:35] <herabot> alien!
[11:35] <alien> stop crashing
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[12:29] <rjharrison> Hi edmoore, did you get your GUI done
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[13:43] <m0tek> hi all
[13:44] <m0tek> rjharrison: yeah it seems to have got it down to pretty low ondeed
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> hello.
[13:45] <rjharrison> 500m is fantastic
[13:45] <SpeedEvil> I assume the payload basically spins all the way down?
[13:45] <rjharrison> Was that using a yagi?
[13:46] <SpeedEvil> The pictures I saw were degraded a fair bit by motion blur
[13:46] <rjharrison> Yep sorry about that speed evil
[13:46] <m0tek> rjharrison: nope, just whip and pre-emp on the icom
[13:46] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if 'anti-shake' cams would work better.
[13:46] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison: I'm not complaining - just wondering :)
[13:46] <m0tek> pre-amp*
[13:46] <rjharrison> cool
[13:47] <rjharrison> Well that's a nice bit of kit ed
[13:47] <m0tek> rjharrison: it got this - $$icarus,2052,07:14:06,51.795566,-0.928975,88,0,000.0,19.3,18.4
[13:47] <rjharrison> I'm fixing the listener to keep bad points out
[13:47] <m0tek> 88m
[13:47] <rjharrison> When you find time if you have the initial launch data logged on the eee that would be cool too
[13:48] <rjharrison> I mess the first 1000m
[13:48] <rjharrison> missed
[13:48] <rjharrison> Still knackered today
[13:48] <m0tek> sure yes - it's in college and i'm not, right now, but i will sort that out and send it to you
[13:48] <m0tek> yeah same - i steruggled to get up for my 10am
[13:48] <rjharrison> I will be tracking if you launch tomorrow to test the listener
[13:49] <rjharrison> 10am on a saturday! They work you hard there :)
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> Hmm - 15 pixels or so motion blur in 1/200 exposure = 3000 pixels/second = a rev every 6 seconds?
[13:50] <m0tek> yeah rjharrison, it's annoyig. I'm fighting wxwidgets
[13:50] <m0tek> actually that's unfair, it's not too bad
[13:50] <rjharrison> That is descent for you SpeedEvil
[13:51] <rjharrison> wxwidgets are a bugger to play with
[13:51] <rjharrison> Coding is time consuming
[13:51] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison: yes - I just want to get an idea for how fast I should twirl round in the garden looking like an idiot while seeing how fast my cam can compensate for the twist.
[13:52] <rjharrison> Use a bicycle wheel or smmat like that
[13:52] <rjharrison> Record player turned by hand
[13:53] <SpeedEvil> cam won't take pictures with button rubber-banded down
[13:53] <SpeedEvil> (well - it'll take one)
[13:53] <rjharrison> hehe
[13:53] <rjharrison> The pictures in the tree were nice.
[13:54] <rjharrison> edmoore: Will you be using cutdown tomorrow if ! would you try the 1/3'rds rule again and report back
[13:54] <rjharrison> paylod 2/3 para 3/3 Balloon ...
[13:55] <m0tek> certainly will do
[13:55] <rjharrison> Don't bother if this interfeers with anything. Though it may keep the crap off your arms :)
[13:55] <m0tek> will report back*
[13:55] <rjharrison> Cool
[13:55] <m0tek> i don't think we're cutting down
[13:55] <m0tek> i haven't made one anyway
[13:56] <m0tek> it's oin the other guy's hands - they have now finished their degrees
[13:56] <m0tek> so are working on it
[13:56] <rjharrison> hehe when you have a sec can we talk mosfets and caps for Payload cut down
[13:57] <rjharrison> And that cool continuity test we talked about
[13:57] <m0tek> ask now, but can't promise i won't spend 20 mins getting distraught by gui-ing
[13:57] <m0tek> it seems really hard to make nice, structured gui code, compared to other things
[13:57] <rjharrison> I'll have a stab at the schematic first
[13:57] <m0tek> just ends up being spaghetti-like
[13:58] <rjharrison> Yep I hate gui work.
[13:58] <rjharrison> It should be done using a graphical editor to place and load data into the widgets
[14:00] <m0tek> might do that for next project
[14:00] <m0tek> will ask ferg what he thinks about us sitting down and re-writing the tracker software in cpp
[14:01] <m0tek> everyone keeps saying 'we need an offline version of the tracker' and that's exactly what we've got. worth the effort to smarten up, I reckon.
[14:01] <rjharrison> Yep I think so too
[14:02] <rjharrison> ! sure it needs C++ but I don't feel stringly
[14:02] <m0tek> but it's all in fergus's head as he's grown it over the last year or so on his eeeeeee
[14:02] <m0tek> well, it's a wee bit slow as it is
[14:02] <m0tek> i mean i'm sure there's a lot of low hanging fruit for speed improvements, algorithmically
[14:03] <rjharrison> C++ is not faster in my experience just easy to reuse the code
[14:03] <rjharrison> My exp is limited
[14:03] <m0tek> when i re-wrote some python in C, it was about 700 times faster
[14:03] <m0tek> no exaggeration
[14:03] <rjharrison> An offline version of the predictor would be cool too
[14:04] <rjharrison> Just pull the GFS data before launch
[14:04] <rjharrison> + updates from dlfldigi to get better approximation
[14:04] <m0tek> we have that too - that's how it started out
[14:04] <rjharrison> Oh yep
[14:04] <rjharrison> Sorry I forgot that
[14:05] <rjharrison> Could we add that to the online predictor one day.
[14:06] <rjharrison> Not sure how that would work in practice
[14:06] <m0tek> yes, should be easy i'd have thought
[14:06] <m0tek> you'd have to feed it clean data though, obviously
[14:06] <rjharrison> I guess the assent data would be interesting the predicitor too
[14:07] <rjharrison> To see how the model is performing against reality
[14:07] <m0tek> we'll code it so you just hand it the same data the map is getting and it produces a landing estimate
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[14:07] <rjharrison> So cool
[14:08] <rjharrison> I'm hoping the data is going to be 99% clean tomorrow
[14:08] <m0tek> it can figure out if you're going up or down
[14:08] <rjharrison> Even from here!
[14:08] <rjharrison> Cool
[14:08] <m0tek> a stats page could have lots of useful data, like the predicted velocity descent profile - as the predictor currently calculates that too
[14:09] <rjharrison> I'm adding stats to the listener too
[14:09] <rjharrison> The online version
[14:09] <m0tek> temps aswell
[14:09] <m0tek> actually, maybe a tracker svn would be good
[14:09] <rjharrison> You're will be better when it's in operation
[14:09] <m0tek> before everyone forks off their own version to the point of having incompatible speciens
[14:09] <rjharrison> yours
[14:09] <rjharrison> Ye[
[14:09] <rjharrison> Yep
[14:10] <m0tek> i love version control, completely
[14:10] <m0tek> i think my entire pc file systems should behave like that
[14:10] <rjharrison> 3 Parts ATM listener ----Feeds---> Tracker ----Feeds??--> Predictor
[14:11] <m0tek> how about:
[14:11] <m0tek> listener --- strings to server ----> a file with 'clean' telemetry strings
[14:11] <m0tek> then everything else can feed from that file
[14:11] <m0tek> mapper can display a map
[14:12] <m0tek> stats module can produce charts
[14:12] <m0tek> predictor can read it and get a prediction
[14:12] <m0tek> etc
[14:12] <rjharrison> ok
[14:12] <rjharrison> I'll create data.php
[14:12] <rjharrison> csv of valid data
[14:12] <SpeedEvil> file needs fsync() or whatever every line so it actually writes it out
[14:12] <m0tek> then somehow the results from each one can be put back together into a pretty online display
[14:13] <rjharrison> Yep
[14:13] <rjharrison> True
[14:13] <m0tek> also having the server have a test-based interface for people with a mobile device and satnav might be good - so you just go to a page which displays 0.1hz updated text with current pos, predicted landing pos, speed, ascent rate etc
[14:13] <rjharrison> Will make dl-fldigi log all valid data to a local file data.txt for offline single user version
[14:14] <m0tek> would be great for a quick snapshot when the vodafone 3g thing breaks but someone in the car has a sony erricson which claims to be able to read web pages
[14:14] <rjharrison> Yep that would be cool for iphone
[14:14] <rjharrison> Ok, Let me get the server sorted for tomorrow
[14:14] <rjharrison> I have 1hr left to code up vlidation
[14:15] <rjharrison> Nearly there
[14:15] <m0tek> ok cool
[14:23] <m0tek> bbiab
[14:23] <rjharrison> ok
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[14:35] <SpeedEvil> Naah - speech synth 'left a bit - right a bit'
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[14:36] <DanielRichman> On the Cheap Yagis website (WA5VJB) the lengths of the elements is specified as 13.50 (driven) 12.50 12.00 12.00 11.00 12.00 11.25
[14:36] <DanielRichman> the length increases for elements five and six?
[14:36] <DanielRichman> is that right?
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[14:36] <DanielRichman> (oops).
[14:37] <SpeedEvil> seemingly
[14:37] <DanielRichman> ok
[14:38] <DanielRichman> bbl
[14:41] <SpeedEvil> AsI understand it, the lengths of the final elements affects the radiation pattern a bit
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[15:28] <alien> ok so our antenna is a piece of crap
[15:28] <alien> pictures after the break
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[15:34] <G8KHW> http://imagebin.org/50920
[15:34] <alien> wut
[15:34] <G8KHW> http://imagebin.org/50921
[15:35] <G8KHW> balloons over Felixstowe right now - came in from out to sea - any clues?
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> OMG! The french are invading!
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[15:46] <Laurenceb> how big?
[15:49] <Laurenceb> hmm those look like habs
[15:49] <Laurenceb> with weird decoration on the envelope.. odd
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[15:59] <G8KHW> quite big - 100ft+ - at about 1000ft up - not hot air
[15:59] <Laurenceb> oh wow
[15:59] <G8KHW> one went to the south of my house - the other to the north - perhaps a km apart
[15:59] <Laurenceb> ascending or descending?
[16:00] <Laurenceb> oh- maybe thats a basket on the bottom
[16:00] <G8KHW> nether - keeping the same height
[16:00] <G8KHW> yeah i think
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[16:28] <Laurenceb> guess those are man carrying gas balloons
[16:28] <Laurenceb> you dont see many of them around
[16:32] <G8KHW> I wondered if it was a north sea crossing by balloon - you don't see many balloons comming in form the sea - especially in Felixstowe where the next land is 100mile+ away
[16:32] <rjharrison> G8KHW: THis is my favoite image from yesterday http://www.robertharrison.org/images/icarus2/Launch3/IMG_1656_RJH.jpg
[16:33] <rjharrison> G8KHW: Weird balloons those
[16:36] <G8KHW> yeah - way cool images
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[16:50] <Laurenceb> rjharrison: do you have a log of altitude/time?
[16:50] <Laurenceb> awesome images btw :P
[16:52] <Laurenceb> it should be possible to calculate the rate of diffusion loss
[16:52] <Laurenceb> so we could overinflate a balloon
[16:52] <Laurenceb> in fact it would then be possibl to go up faster
[16:54] <m0tek> just a shame it's of kent
[16:54] <Laurenceb> should be on the tracker page right?
[16:55] <Laurenceb> you can see the light of rotterdam
[16:55] <akawaka> rjharrison: that is a great image
[16:55] <akawaka> what altitude?
[16:57] <Laurenceb> and the Ijsselmeer
[16:59] <Laurenceb> ~34Km
[17:16] <gordonjcp> rjharrison: wow
[17:23] <alien> So... the yagi seems to work better sideways/backwards and the whip is better anyway
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> inches/metric?
[17:24] <Laurenceb> light of Rotterdam are especially awsome
[17:26] <alien> Any ideas? We think the coxial cable may be too long at 3m.
[17:29] <SpeedEvil> that's almost certainly not a problem - at 433
[17:29] <alien> :S
[17:29] <alien> hmm
[17:29] <SpeedEvil> essentially all coaxes will have approximately zero loss at that
[17:29] <alien> so our antenna is just rubbish
[17:29] <SpeedEvil> things to check.
[17:30] <alien> mm?
[17:30] <SpeedEvil> That the connectors are in fact assembled correctly.
[17:30] <SpeedEvil> That the correct antenna output is selected
[17:30] <alien> correct antenna output?
[17:30] <SpeedEvil> That the connections to the driven/recieving element are correct
[17:30] <SpeedEvil> (if the reciever supports multiple antennas)
[17:30] <alien> apparently they are
[17:31] <alien> it does work, just not as well as the whip
[17:31] <alien> all good
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> does it say it's meant to be driven directly from coax?
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> It may need a balun
[17:32] <alien> it's the cheap yagi design: "I usually also wind a small loop of the RG-58 coax into a small RF choke under the feedpoint to act as a balun. WA5VJB states that this step is unnecessary, but I'm a purist... "
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> and you're sure the measurements are right, and you haven't used a conductive pole to assemble it on
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> sorry for the assumption of stupidity
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[17:36] <jcoxon> G8KHW, just saw the balloons
[17:36] <jcoxon> they are going east from mid suffolk
[17:38] <alien> SpeedEvil, does duct tape have any affect on 70cm radio?
[17:39] <SpeedEvil> shouldn't
[17:39] <SpeedEvil> do you have a pic of this?
[17:40] <SpeedEvil> however - I have only built one yagi, and it was a long time ago
[17:40] <alien> It's horrible; I blame sbasuita and AlexBreton for the construction
[17:40] <alien> pics coming up
[17:41] <jcoxon> i mean west from mid suffolk :-)
[17:44] <alien> http://www.richmanwebsite.co.uk/30052009978.jpg
[17:44] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/50929
[17:44] <alien> http://www.richmanwebsite.co.uk/30052009979.jpg
[17:45] <Laurenceb> ^ SpeedEvil
[17:45] <alien> http://www.richmanwebsite.co.uk/30052009980.jpg
[17:45] <alien> http://www.richmanwebsite.co.uk/30052009981.jpg
[17:45] <alien> SpeedEvil, four pics above.
[17:45] Action: Laurenceb advises hot melt glue
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> Well...
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> First issue
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> the elements actually have to be at right-angles to the beam.
[17:46] <alien> They are, arn't they?
[17:47] <alien> ;)
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> not very
[17:47] <jcoxon> guys unfortunately antennas need to be pretty accurate
[17:47] <alien> yeah
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[17:47] <alien> :)
[17:47] <alien> it kind-of fails
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> and the copper wire has to be in the centre of the measurements - not what holds it
[17:48] <alien> yeah, the wire is in the centre
[17:48] <alien> i blame daniel's failure to procure materials in advance
[17:48] <alien> simrun will make an epic badass one at hme
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: looks sane on first glance - but /me has been doing http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/3578959764/in/photostream/ today
[17:49] <Laurenceb> heh :P
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> so am a bit bleh ATM
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[17:59] <m0tek> jcoxon: the balloons were travelling to the east, did you say?
[17:59] <jcoxon> no west
[17:59] <jcoxon> sorry
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[18:06] <Laurenceb> thick them in the sim
[18:06] <Laurenceb> what time was this?
[18:06] <Laurenceb> *stick
[18:06] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: http://imagebin.org/50931
[18:08] <rjharrison> Any change of a cusf wav of the data so I can make an xml file to parse the data tomorrow
[18:09] <Laurenceb> xml? data parsing?
[18:09] Action: Laurenceb checks to make sure hes not in #compsci
[18:09] <rjharrison> yep the listener uses xml files to describe the sentances
[18:09] <Laurenceb> very nice
[18:10] <rjharrison> http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/icarus.xml
[18:10] <Laurenceb> oh, to process the data? neat
[18:13] <m0tek> rjharrison: no
[18:13] <m0tek> sory to be blunt. don't have one, don't have time to get one tonight
[18:14] <jcoxon> m0tek, we have wavs of badger
[18:14] <jcoxon> just need to find out if the string format has changed?
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[18:19] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: I'd guesstimate something like £5K total cost including balloon launch
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[18:27] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: if you can get access to a good CNC free
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> and stuff
[18:28] <Laurenceb> CNC isnt that expensive
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> no, not really - assuming you get it right the first time
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> the steering is what?
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> I mean - what propellant
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[18:31] <SpeedEvil> You've gone to 2000PSI chamber pressure?
[18:32] <SpeedEvil> peak
[18:32] <SpeedEvil> the bulkhead/injector is clamped to the aluminium mounting ring, and the ring is cooled by this?
[18:33] <Laurenceb> yes
[18:34] <Laurenceb> the mounting ring is for the engine
[18:34] <Laurenceb> - graphite
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> know
[18:34] <Laurenceb> the entire injector/bulkhead is one piece
[18:35] <Laurenceb> well actually two - two halves so its possible to mill it
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> also - taking the PET tube all teh way up to the top bulkhead, with some small holes - will eliminate any chances of it wrinkling.
[18:36] <Laurenceb> wrinkling?
[18:36] <SpeedEvil> I assume you've checked that PET is good for long-term in H2O2
[18:36] <SpeedEvil> crumpling then
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[18:36] <Laurenceb> oh so its under tension yeah
[18:36] <SpeedEvil> if the piston gets in a wee bit sideways somehow
[18:37] <Laurenceb> well H2O2 is denser than kerosene
[18:37] <Laurenceb> so the acceleration should keep it under tension
[18:37] <SpeedEvil> not that much head - even at 10G or so
[18:37] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:37] <SpeedEvil> what's the flexi-tube carrying
[18:38] <Laurenceb> H2O2
[18:38] <Laurenceb> to the attitude nozzles
[18:38] <SpeedEvil> distribution pipework isn't connected to this then?
[18:38] <Laurenceb> yes
[18:39] <Laurenceb> thats all for the attitude control system
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> the 1800psi ressure drop comes from the attitude valves then?
[18:40] <Laurenceb> yes
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> oh - somehow I read 200PSI in the distrribution pipework
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> then each goes through its own cat, to a nozzle?
[18:40] <Laurenceb> yes
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[18:41] <Laurenceb> that whole assembly on the top weighs about a Kg
[18:41] <SpeedEvil> What's the total burn time of each stage - 30s?
[18:41] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> I'd also be tempted to say 'cubesat does GNC'
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> As it's going to want most of the GNC stuff anyway.
[18:42] <Laurenceb> GNC?
[18:43] <Laurenceb> oh the cubesat does attitude control?
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> Guidance Navigation and Control
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[18:43] <Laurenceb> got you
[18:43] <Laurenceb> hehe
[18:43] <Laurenceb> then it can launch a 2kg cubesat
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if for that sort of timescale - and monoprop only - you can machine the nozzles into the Al bulkhead
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> with a flame-sprayed thermal barrier coat
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[18:47] <Laurenceb> maybe if it wasnt burning 90% H2O2
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> probably
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[18:47] <Laurenceb> but that stuff is hot
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> I suppose with it having the valves and stuff internal too.
[18:48] <Laurenceb> I thought about that, but I was worried it'd overheat the CF
[18:49] <Laurenceb> you can buy lenghts of CF tube that'd work for about £200 i think
[18:49] Action: SpeedEvil tries to find the overused-but-beautiful interstage ring / engine ignition sequence.
[18:52] <Laurenceb> ullage motors?
[18:52] <Laurenceb> hmm that could be an iaaue
[18:52] <Laurenceb> but you could have the engine firings overlap
[18:53] <Laurenceb> should even work for ignition
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> how're you doing ignition?
[18:53] <Laurenceb> have stages overlap by ~2 seconds
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[18:54] <SpeedEvil> umm?
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> I mean - how are you starting combustion
[18:54] <Laurenceb> using the previous stages engines
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> I don't think that works at all.
[18:54] <Laurenceb> as the tubes are horizontally stacked
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[18:55] <SpeedEvil> You get a chamber full of H2O2/kerosene liquid, and things go badly from there
[18:55] <Laurenceb> not if you design the valves right
[18:55] <Laurenceb> so you have a throttling range of say 80 to 100%
[18:55] <Laurenceb> then at say 25% it only letting through kerosene
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> you're relying on ignition of the stage through the end of the rocket motor, going back up the throat?
[18:56] <Laurenceb> yes
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> How does that work at all?
[18:56] <Laurenceb> thats how they ignite space shuttle engines
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> err - no, it's not
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> the sparklers are there to burn off the hydrogen coming out of the engine, yes.
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> however, the actual engine is ignited by high-energy spark-plugs inside it
[18:57] <Laurenceb> ok
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> (or little rocket motors in the tips for the SRBs)
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> Unsure how well /if at all - H2O2/kero would be ignited that way
[18:58] <Laurenceb> hmm I guess small pryo igniters could be shovved into the chamber
[18:58] <Laurenceb> for minimal weight penalty
[18:59] <Laurenceb> my idea was use 100% kero to flood the chamber then introduce some H2O2
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> IIRC someone coating the chamber inside with potassium permanganate - to instantly decompose the H2O2, and get ignition that way
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> that will blow your chamber off
[19:00] <SpeedEvil> as the liquid won't flow through the throat very fast, and is incompressible
[19:00] <Laurenceb> hmm yeah
[19:01] <Laurenceb> the cataylist idea sounds good
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> I was hoping to sort-of get round this with a sryinge pump driving a tertiary teeny injector of permanganate solution or similar.
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> So start H2O2 flow, and catalyst, then add kero, and stop catalyst
[19:02] <Laurenceb> whats wrong with catalyst on chamber walls?
[19:03] <SpeedEvil> I was wanting multiple start capability
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[19:03] <SpeedEvil> not so much for flights, more for testing
[19:04] <SpeedEvil> every stage restart 10 times, and burns for half an hour before launch
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[19:30] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: another option of C of G shift
[19:33] Action: SpeedEvil dances.
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[19:34] <Laurenceb> of course at burnout it shops working
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[19:42] <Laurenceb> http://www.robertharrison.org/images/icarus2/Launch3/IMG_1656_RJH.jpg <- you can see quite a bit of wave activity over the wash
[19:49] <Laurenceb> G8KHW: that yellow balloon says quality on the side
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[19:57] <Laurenceb> http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=090528-virgin-motor-02.jpg&cap=Virgin+Galactic+completed+the+first+phase+of+tests+of+SpaceShipTwo%27s+rocket%0D%0Amotor+that+will+propel+space+tourists%2C+scientists+and+payloads+into+space.+Credit%3A+Virgin+Galactic
[19:57] <Laurenceb> ^ lox tank in background?
[19:58] <Laurenceb> "The hybrid nitrous oxide motor represents the largest of its kind in the world" hmm I heard they were using LOX/wax
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[20:36] <rjharrison> id CUSF 7bit?
[20:36] <rjharrison> is
[20:43] <rjharrison> Can anyone expalin the last two field and the one after time?
[20:43] <rjharrison> Badger,7208,11:39:12,1,52.1321,0.137891,8638,7,0
[20:44] <rjharrison> Callsign,sequence,time,?,lat,long,alt,?,?
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> Number of sats? is it in range of 0-12?
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> IIRC one should be internal tem
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> p
[20:55] <edmoore_> rjharrison: what flight is that from?
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[21:17] <rjharrison> Sorry edmoore about Dec 21's
[21:17] <rjharrison> t
[21:17] <rjharrison> Thanks SpeedEvil
[21:17] <rjharrison> I think you might be correct there
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[21:19] <fuzzylugnuts> Cool launch!
[21:19] <rjharrison> fuzzylugnuts: Cheers
[21:19] <rjharrison> Did you see the pics
[21:19] <rjharrison> 10hr flight
[21:19] <rjharrison> more or less
[21:19] <rjharrison> a long night
[21:19] <fuzzylugnuts> Do you have a link to the pics?
[21:20] <rjharrison> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/sets/72157618814637849/
[21:21] <fuzzylugnuts> hole eee crap
[21:21] <fuzzylugnuts> that looks so cool
[21:21] <fuzzylugnuts> altitude?
[21:22] <rjharrison> 33,000 - 33,500 for alot of those pics
[21:22] <rjharrison> http://www.robertharrison.org/images/icarus2/Launch3/IMG_1656_RJH.jpg
[21:22] <rjharrison> This is my favorite
[21:22] <fuzzylugnuts> wow. what gram balloon?
[21:23] <rjharrison> 300g
[21:23] <rjharrison> 3000g
[21:23] <fuzzylugnuts> oh, ok
[21:23] <fuzzylugnuts> I was going to say
[21:23] <rjharrison> but I have dome 35000m on 1.5
[21:23] <rjharrison> kg
[21:23] <fuzzylugnuts> you know, you could probably sell prints of those
[21:23] <rjharrison> In fact at the moment I preferr 1.5kg
[21:24] <fuzzylugnuts> any particular reason?
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[21:24] <rjharrison> Well they are cheaper and more aerodynamic
[21:24] <fuzzylugnuts> Ah
[21:25] <rjharrison> I'm yet to be convinced on 3kg balloons
[21:25] <fuzzylugnuts> haha.
[21:25] <fuzzylugnuts> but but... they're bigger!
[21:25] <rjharrison> I think they are better at a faster assent rate
[21:25] <rjharrison> It was a weird launch
[21:26] <rjharrison> THe balloon was going up at 3cm per second at some points
[21:26] <rjharrison> Taking several minutes to move up a meter
[21:26] <fuzzylugnuts> oh, yeah, I've had that happen. It gets in some funky downdraft
[21:26] <rjharrison> Yep
[21:27] <rjharrison> and the balloon is so big it's more affected than a 1.5
[21:27] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah
[21:27] <rjharrison> Also the ascent reat ewas very slow compared to normal
[21:27] <fuzzylugnuts> you're payloads are pretty light though
[21:27] <rjharrison> Hehe
[21:27] <rjharrison> I try to keep them that way
[21:28] <fuzzylugnuts> ours were always around 5kg
[21:28] <rjharrison> wow
[21:28] <rjharrison> that is big
[21:28] <rjharrison> bbiab
[21:28] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, we send up lots of different projects at a time.
[21:29] <fuzzylugnuts> 3rd grader's egg drop experiments and such
[21:30] <fuzzylugnuts> slr cameras, giant aprs trackers, flight computer, biology experiments... etc.
[21:30] <fuzzylugnuts> thats the typical launch
[21:30] <fuzzylugnuts> Oh yeah, last one had cockroaches
[21:30] <fuzzylugnuts> but they broke off and cratered.
[21:32] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/3575567657/in/set-72157618814637849/
[21:32] <fuzzylugnuts> I like that one
[21:35] <fuzzylugnuts> Really, I bet you could sell some nice prints of those shots
[21:36] <fuzzylugnuts> we make alot off of ours
[21:40] <Laurenceb> rjharrison: if you can work out the diffusion rate
[21:40] <Laurenceb> then you can overfill to counteract
[21:40] <Laurenceb> theres no difference is how "aerodynamic" it is
[21:41] <Laurenceb> it suffered from diffusion simply as it had such a slow ascent rate
[21:41] <Laurenceb> the envelope gets extremely thin, a few microns, so it suffers from diffusion and is damaged by UV and free radicals over a time scale of an hour or two
[21:42] <fuzzylugnuts> rjharrison: do you have a copy of the script you used for the camera?
[21:42] <Laurenceb> 42Km was the predicted bust altitude, IMO you could get over 40 if you account for diffusion losses
[21:43] <Laurenceb> interesting horizontal lines across the image
[21:44] <Laurenceb> I'm guessing something to do with the sensor...
[21:45] <Laurenceb> I like the planes over the neterlands
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[22:37] <Laurenceb> G8KHW: are there explosive bolts avaliable for model rocketry?
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[22:49] <G8KHW> try areocon systems (US) - they are about the only place i know that might have them
[22:50] <G8KHW> http://www.aeroconsystems.com/
[22:51] <G8KHW> wow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee0HYpcT5yI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaeroconsystems%2Ecom%2Fliterature%2Fsolidskateboards%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded
[22:52] <fuzzylugnuts> hahahaa
[22:52] <fuzzylugnuts> total win
[22:53] <fuzzylugnuts> G8KHW: seen the titanium tanks on ebay from one of the apollo missions?
[22:54] <G8KHW> nope - wow
[22:57] <fuzzylugnuts> aww crap, its not up anymore
[23:00] <fuzzylugnuts> it was a 3ft diameter titanium spherical tank
[23:00] <fuzzylugnuts> rated to 3,000 psi
[23:06] <Laurenceb> tantalum chip caps, the band is +ive right?
[23:07] <fuzzylugnuts> dunno, I always have to google it
[23:17] <fuzzylugnuts> or look at the spec sheet
[23:17] <fuzzylugnuts> which is also available on the internet
[23:20] <rjharrison> back
[23:20] <Laurenceb> edmoore: is there a launch tomorrow?
[23:21] <fuzzylugnuts> wb.
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[23:25] <Laurenceb> edmoore_: is there a launch tomorrow?
[23:25] <edmoore_> probs
[23:25] <Laurenceb> any chance I could stick something on ze bottom?
[23:27] <edmoore_> no
[23:27] <edmoore_> we have mass problems
[23:27] <Laurenceb> fairdoos
[23:28] <edmoore_> maybe on a normal flight soon, but tomorrow is just boring and business like
[23:28] <edmoore_> and also quite heavy
[23:30] <Laurenceb> ok
[23:38] <rjharrison> Hi ed any thoughts on time of launch?
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[23:40] <Laurenceb> what are you launching?
[23:40] <CUSF_Jez> edmoore - you about?
[23:41] <rjharrison> Hi CUSF_Jez
[23:41] <CUSF_Jez> evenin'
[23:41] <CUSF_Jez> we were meant to finish this build before night came
[23:42] <CUSF_Jez> edmoore_ ?
[23:42] <edmoore_> yes
[23:43] <CUSF_Jez> edmoore_: fergus is here and we can't get the radio charging - can he phone you?
[23:43] <edmoore_> i will tell him what i told iain when we chatted about it - no idea
[23:43] <edmoore_> sounds like you tried everything obvious
[23:43] <rjharrison> Hey is it the ft817nd
[23:43] <CUSF_Jez> you still in the DPO?
[23:43] <edmoore_> rjharrison: no
[23:43] <edmoore_> CUSF_Jez: no
[23:44] <CUSF_Jez> fergus is asking if you checked your car for the charger
[23:44] <CUSF_Jez> 'cos it's looking a tad bad
[23:44] <edmoore_> am having an early one so i can do some work before launch tomorow
[23:44] <edmoore_> assuming there is a launch
[23:46] <CUSF_Jez> off to engineering dept - ciao!
[23:49] <Laurenceb> G8KHW: no explosive bolts there I dont think :(
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[23:55] <rjharrison> edmoore the tracker will behave better tomorrow if you are logging to it. I hope you manage to achive what you wanted to do today. There seems to be alot of demand on your time ATM.
[00:00] --- Sun May 31 2009