highaltitude.log.20090527

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[00:51] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfwQKapDMws&NR=1
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[01:49] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: you could pressurise a H2O2 tank using liquid catalyst stabally
[01:49] <Laurenceb> the temperature would reach the boiling point then some would boil off
[01:52] <SpeedEvil> umm - catalyst
[01:52] <Laurenceb> rate of gas production would be set by the amount of catalyst
[01:52] <SpeedEvil> it stays in there and keeps going
[01:52] <Laurenceb> yes
[01:53] <SpeedEvil> yes - assuming the reaction rate stays constant
[01:53] <Laurenceb> hmm depends on the concentrations
[01:53] <SpeedEvil> if the temperature rises, the reaction rate rises - will the cooling from the evaporation/boiling (and boiling means you'll get liquids out)
[01:53] <SpeedEvil> keep at the same relative rate?
[01:54] <Laurenceb> well the catalyst is a salt
[01:54] <Laurenceb> so it will remain with the liquids
[01:54] <SpeedEvil> sorry - was thinking of a small pressurant tank - you mean a tank feeding out of the base
[01:54] <Laurenceb> if you have many more H2O2 moelcules than catalyst, then each catalyst molecule is constantly busy
[01:55] <Laurenceb> no - I think youd have to use a pressurant tank
[01:55] <Laurenceb> - so reaction rate at equilibrium temperature is set by the amount of catalyst
[01:56] <SpeedEvil> However - IIRC - the decomposition products - the free O's and OH's are also catalytic to some degree
[01:56] <Laurenceb> but they would come out of the liquid
[01:56] <SpeedEvil> not at the scales you're talking about
[01:57] <SpeedEvil> they - of course - eventually form O2 and H2O - but that takes a few micro/nanoseconds
[01:57] <Laurenceb> ah got you
[01:57] <SpeedEvil> if it gets hot enough, it all goes bang all on its own
[01:57] <SpeedEvil> can even go high-order
[01:57] <Laurenceb> hmm
[01:58] <Laurenceb> I think its stable to above boiling point
[01:58] <SpeedEvil> I don't know about boiling H2O2 at 600PSI
[01:59] <SpeedEvil> And injecting catalyst into that seems like a fundamentally bad idea.
[02:00] <SpeedEvil> What's 600PSI - 200C?
[02:00] <Laurenceb> about
[02:00] <Laurenceb> yes
[02:03] <SpeedEvil> As a ballpark, it's going to degrade at 2^18 times faster than room temp
[02:03] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
[02:03] <SpeedEvil> I'd invest in a bunker, if you want to test this thing.
[02:04] <SpeedEvil> As I think that's possibly on the borderline of going high-order.
[02:04] <SpeedEvil> with the least provocation
[02:04] <SpeedEvil> even if it doesn't just do the boring thing, and overpressure the tank
[02:05] <SpeedEvil> I'd wander round a decent library looking for stuff on H2O2
[02:06] <SpeedEvil> but I don't have a decent library nearby
[02:07] <Laurenceb> heh
[02:07] <Laurenceb> the high pressure would tend to stabilise it
[02:07] <Laurenceb> - as the products have vastly greater volume
[02:09] <SpeedEvil> err - no
[02:09] <SpeedEvil> the high temperature destabilises it
[02:09] <SpeedEvil> and makes the decomposition energetically _much_ more likely
[02:10] <Laurenceb> sure
[02:10] <SpeedEvil> as you have more thermal random energy around to push each individual molecule over the hump, and get it to release its stored energy
[02:10] <Laurenceb> but the high pressure
[02:12] <SpeedEvil> I've unfortunately mislaid my copy of scanned book on H2O2
[02:13] <SpeedEvil> I'd recommend wandering into an actual library - wish I had as easy access - and having a look.
[02:13] <SpeedEvil> IIRC I found some interesting stuff in 'catalysis' - a journal
[02:26] <Laurenceb> http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/RPAS/RPViewDoc?_handler_=HandleInitialGet&articleFile=v57-042.pdf&journal=cjc&volume=35
[02:32] <SpeedEvil> interesting
[02:32] <SpeedEvil> sleep now
[02:32] <SpeedEvil> night
[02:34] <Laurenceb> cya
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[07:07] <rjharrison> Morning all
[07:08] <rjharrison> Looking like there will be launches on Thursday and Friday this week
[07:13] <natrium42> heya
[07:13] <natrium42> which one is yours?
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[07:22] <rjharrison> Fridays
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[10:00] <edmoore> is someone else on the predictor?
[10:03] <natrium42> not me
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[10:15] <edmoore> rjharrison: are you about this eve?
[10:16] <edmoore> there's a small chance I might go on a shopping spree and try and set up my ee to track the chase car and balloon over mobile broadbeans
[10:16] <edmoore> Could obviously do with your assistance on that front
[10:16] <edmoore> right, gtg to dept. back online in a bit
[10:18] <natrium42> edmoore, not going to watch soyuz?
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[10:52] <edmoore> hi all
[10:53] <edmoore> rjharrison: am back, if you tried to write anything in the last wee bit
[10:54] <natrium42> edmoore, mms://209.73.191.59/md2enc047?StreamID=81115618&pl_auth=eddcdb3da22594d2c566037dfbc31589&ht=120&pl_b=00CEBE2C2BAD21262D061FC1484A1CFFCE&CG_ID=1369080&Segment=149773
[10:54] <edmoore> there is a rogue smily in there
[10:54] <natrium42> hehe
[10:55] <edmoore> what is the smily instead of, so I can watch?
[10:55] <edmoore> see*
[10:56] <natrium42> http://pastebin.com/m6f2e981d
[10:57] <natrium42> lots of launch prep videos in this post --> http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=8422
[10:57] <natrium42> in high quality
[10:57] <edmoore> ok cool
[10:57] <edmoore> is that a live stream?
[10:58] <natrium42> yeah
[10:58] <edmoore> nice
[10:58] <edmoore> 5 hrs though
[10:58] <natrium42> the best quality one i have found
[10:58] <edmoore> ain't hanging around that long :)
[10:58] <natrium42> eh
[10:58] <natrium42> no
[10:58] <natrium42> 38 mins
[10:58] <natrium42> to launch
[10:59] <natrium42> ESA stream might end up being better --> http://hwcdn.net/x4m9a8k3/wls/16673-esa_wm.asx
[10:59] <natrium42> as far as quality
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[11:00] <natrium42> yeah, and no annoying commentators
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[11:00] <natrium42> which is good if you can understand russian ;)
[11:02] <edmoore> 38 mins? ok cool
[11:02] <edmoore> that's exciting then
[11:04] <natrium42> :)
[11:04] <natrium42> going to finally expand station crew to 6
[11:08] <natrium42> the ESA stream is quite good, actually
[11:08] <natrium42> why can't nasa do that...
[11:10] <edmoore> why are they still over in that booth when they're launching in 30 mins!?
[11:10] <edmoore> or is that archive fotage
[11:11] <natrium42> that's archive footage from earlier in the morning
[11:11] <edmoore> i see. i'll shuddup
[11:12] <edmoore> what's the utc launch time?
[11:12] <natrium42> 10:34:52
[11:13] <natrium42> in about 20 mins
[11:15] <natrium42> lots of info in this thread --> http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=8422
[11:17] <edmoore> nice link, ty
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[11:27] <jcoxon> ping rjharrison
[11:29] <natrium42> ~5 mins left
[11:30] <DanielRichman> 5mins left on what?
[11:30] <natrium42> soyuz launch
[11:30] <natrium42> see nasa tv
[11:30] <natrium42> mms://209.73.191.59/md2enc047?StreamID=81115618&pl_auth=eddcdb3da22594d2c566037dfbc31589&ht=120&pl_b=00CEBE2C2BAD21262D061FC1484A1CFFCE&CG_ID=1369080&Segment=149773
[11:31] <natrium42> or ESA (higher quality) --> http://hwcdn.net/x4m9a8k3/wls/16673-esa_wm.asx
[11:31] <natrium42> esa still showing replays, wtf
[11:32] <DanielRichman> Argh. I has not a codec.
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[11:33] <natrium42> VLC
[11:33] <natrium42> is where it's at
[11:33] <natrium42> you've got 1:20 mins to install it
[11:33] <natrium42> :P
[11:34] <DanielRichman> Eh. It's offering me a codec install page (ubuntu) but not sure if I cba
[11:34] <DanielRichman> ok go on then
[11:35] <jcoxon> my vlc doesn't support teh video codec
[11:35] <jcoxon> just the sound
[11:35] Action: DanielRichman installs illegal codecs from multiverse. om nom nom
[11:35] <natrium42> liftoff
[11:37] <natrium42> haha, nice UI
[11:37] <edmoore> nice
[11:38] <edmoore> morning jcoxon
[11:38] <natrium42> launch inside is much smoother than in the shuttle
[11:38] <edmoore> no clunky SRBs
[11:38] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[11:38] <natrium42> yep
[11:42] <rjharrison> pin jcoxon
[11:42] <edmoore> hi rjharrison
[11:42] <edmoore> just the man
[11:43] <edmoore> the man with a plan
[11:43] <edmoore> and a sun tan
[11:43] <edmoore> etc
[11:43] <edmoore> sys
[11:43] <edmoore> whoops
[11:43] <natrium42> +++ATH
[11:44] <natrium42> :P
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[12:00] <edmoore> is anyone going to be around here tomorrow afternoon?
[12:02] <jcoxon> unfortunately not
[12:02] <jcoxon> rob is going to track from home
[12:02] <rjharrison> Hi edmoore
[12:02] <rjharrison> I'm not going to be arround tomorrw
[12:02] <rjharrison> Do you want my tracker code for case car
[12:02] <rjharrison> chase
[12:03] <rjharrison> Will track from home a payload
[12:03] <edmoore> that would be great
[12:03] <edmoore> basically i'll try and set up my eee as per yours this afternoon
[12:03] <rjharrison> Ok do you have gps dongle thing
[12:05] <edmoore> a usb one that looks remarkably like yours
[12:05] <edmoore> i will check as it's in a box buried in my room
[12:08] <jcoxon> is it possible to declare a variable with the name of a variable?
[12:09] <gordonjcp> in what language?
[12:09] <jcoxon> c++
[12:09] <rjharrison> no
[12:09] <jcoxon> oh well
[12:09] <jcoxon> :-)
[12:09] <rjharrison> char char
[12:09] <rjharrison> no
[12:09] <jcoxon> oh no i mean
[12:10] <jcoxon> string nametakenfromanothervariable
[12:10] <rjharrison> no
[12:10] <edmoore> no - you'll just get type conflicts
[12:10] <jcoxon> fair enough :-)
[12:11] <natrium42> it's fine if you are in a different block
[12:12] <natrium42> you can add a block {} anywhere you want, btw, creating a local namespace
[12:12] <jcoxon> its okay
[12:13] <rjharrison> edmoore: PM
[12:14] <DanielRichman> Who's launching what tomorrow?
[12:15] <jcoxon> Steve is launching tomorrow
[12:15] <jcoxon> and Rjh on friday
[12:16] <DanielRichman> nice
[12:16] <rjharrison> Might be worth updating the launch
[12:16] <rjharrison> info
[12:16] <rjharrison> Too much to do
[12:16] <DanielRichman> I promised myself that I'd have the ALIEN pcb designed by the end of this week... so hopefully we're on the 'home straight' as it were
[12:17] <rjharrison> I must do some work
[12:17] <rjharrison> kick me jcoxon
[12:17] <rjharrison> :)
[12:18] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jcoxon' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[12:18] <jcoxon> by rjharrison
[12:18] <jcoxon> :-p
[12:18] <jcoxon> bye*
[12:18] rjharrison kicked from #highaltitude by jcoxon: jcoxon
[12:19] <natrium42> lol
[12:21] <DanielRichman> bbl
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[13:43] <edmoore> hi everyone
[13:43] <edmoore> G8KHW: got email. shame
[13:44] <edmoore> I'm pretty busy from here on in now, so i might not be able to be much help
[13:45] <edmoore> will be interesting to see what the 12Z says
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[13:53] <G8KHW> yeah - I'll see if it was the right decision or not
[13:54] <G8KHW> the forecasts seem to lag by about 4 to 6 hours - so late today
[13:56] <edmoore> yes, it would be nice to get the 12Z data much sooner
[13:56] <edmoore> see if it shifts stuff more to the east
[13:56] <G8KHW> yeah (not too far though)
[13:57] <G8KHW> based on sundays experiance I'm really concerned about fill and ascent rate too
[13:59] <edmoore> I can only guess that was from the reduced effect of payload drag - but amazing it would have such a large contribution as a percentage of total speed
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[14:52] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
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[15:11] <rjharrison> G8KHW: Friday still cool?
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[15:28] <rjharrison> Hi DanielRichman
[15:29] <rjharrison> Thursday launch cancelled
[15:29] <rjharrison> But I'm still going for it on Friday
[15:29] <rjharrison> Subject to wx
[15:29] <rjharrison> wx = weather
[15:34] <DanielRichman> rjharrison, cool
[15:34] <DanielRichman> ping sbasuita
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[16:18] <edmoore> hi all
[16:18] <edmoore> hi G8KHW
[16:18] <rjharrison> Yo
[16:18] <rjharrison> Bad news about tomorrw
[16:18] <rjharrison> U still ok for Friday launch if EARS is ! a goer
[16:19] <edmoore> well, as I mentioned it's now getting pretty busy for me
[16:19] <edmoore> basically no, i can't really do friday, although i could do about 1hr 11.30 - 12.30 if you could provide He
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[16:20] <rjharrison> Yep I can provide all and set up ready to launch. Just really need authorisation to launch
[16:20] <edmoore> ok, I can do that
[16:20] <rjharrison> Steve is going to be with me
[16:20] <rjharrison> so I'm ok for hands on deck
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[16:21] <rjharrison> Might be an interesting launch if all goes to plan
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[16:26] <aaaa> hi
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[16:27] <m0tek> test
[16:27] <rjharrison> test
[16:29] <m0tek> warming up the eeepc - have not used it for ages
[16:29] <DanielRichman> Has anyone flown humidity sensors yet ?
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[16:30] <edmoore_> three of me. am butchering the statistics
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[16:46] <rjharrison> I love my eee
[16:47] <rjharrison> Worked well at the w/e
[16:47] <m0tek> very
[16:48] <rjharrison> You liked that ed
[16:48] <rjharrison> :)
[16:48] <m0tek> was making vodafone mobile braodbeans work on it ok?
[16:48] <m0tek> i am about to have a go
[16:48] <rjharrison> Nice and compact
[16:48] <rjharrison> Very
[16:48] <rjharrison> Plug in stick
[16:49] <rjharrison> Select vodaphone from the network icon in the corner
[16:49] <rjharrison> where you select wifi connection
[16:49] <rjharrison> Done
[16:50] <rjharrison> Did it work?
[16:52] <rjharrison> if you pull the source from the svn and make the changes in README.CURL you should have a working verison of the clinet on your system
[16:52] <rjharrison> Do ./configure before making the changes to the src/Makefile
[16:53] <m0tek> still faffing on mac
[16:53] <rjharrison> Hehe NP
[16:53] <m0tek> not supremely fast, but i have bad reception here
[17:01] <edmoore> rjharrison: doesn't seem to be working for me
[17:01] <edmoore> i'll try a restart
[17:01] <rjharrison> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=370171688687
[17:02] <rjharrison> You want one of these
[17:02] <rjharrison> Is it the white usb stick?
[17:02] <rjharrison> vodaphonE?
[17:02] <edmoore> yep
[17:03] <rjharrison> What is the model number on the back
[17:03] <rjharrison> mine is E172
[17:04] <edmoore> K3565
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[17:05] <rjharrison> Humm
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[17:07] <edmoore> ok working
[17:07] <rjharrison> Ed read this http://www.betavine.net/bvportal/forums/index.html?threadId=ff8080812057dadb0120ab04203f3221&postId=ff8080812057dadb0120ae56fbb96a34
[17:07] <rjharrison> hehe
[17:07] <edmoore> restart and adjusting some settings
[17:07] <edmoore> grand
[17:08] <rjharrison> Well cool
[17:08] <rjharrison> now you just need to compile the client and my gps-track stuff
[17:09] <edmoore> where did I put that gps...
[17:09] <rjharrison> The track bash script has the spacenear.us stuff in too iirc
[17:09] <rjharrison> Just need to uncomment it
[17:09] <rjharrison> hehe
[17:09] Action: rjharrison thinks edmore it frantically searching through boxes in his room
[17:10] <rjharrison> must dash
[17:10] <rjharrison> need to collec kid
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[17:22] <jcoxon> afternoon all
[17:23] <jcoxon> got a QSL card from the PBH9 guys :-)
[17:23] <jcoxon> though as it was only 1 way i guess its not strictly a QSL card
[17:27] <edmoore> :)
[17:27] <edmoore> right, bbl
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[17:42] <m0tek> eee compains of 'slow script' in firefox on spacenear.us/tracker when on mobile broadbeans
[17:44] <m0tek> and on wireless actually
[17:44] <m0tek> it just comapins
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[18:34] <Laurenceb> hi
[18:35] <Laurenceb> is there a launch this weekend?
[18:36] <DanielRichman> hi Laurenceb ; I think there may be launch(es) on friday, weather depending
[18:36] <DanielRichman> We got a T68i btw ;)
[18:36] <Laurenceb> nice
[18:37] <Laurenceb> got it talking?
[18:37] <DanielRichman> Not my launches, rjharrisons
[18:37] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, hasn't arrived yet, but won the auction
[18:37] <Laurenceb> ok
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[18:49] Action: Laurenceb sacrifices children to m0tek
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[18:57] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch
[18:58] <Laurenceb> aka molek
[18:58] <DanielRichman> but why a chicken?
[18:58] <DanielRichman> oh
[18:58] <DanielRichman> children!?
[18:58] Action: DanielRichman had misread Laurenceb's sacrifice
[18:59] <m0tek> children
[19:01] <DanielRichman> "Laurenceb sacrifices children to m0tek"
[19:01] <Laurenceb> yes, and what do I get in return?
[19:01] <DanielRichman> According to wikipedia, you're meant to burn them
[19:02] <m0tek> ??seen
[19:03] <Laurenceb> you around on friday?
[19:03] <DanielRichman> .seen rjharrison
[19:03] <herabot> DanielRichman: I last saw rjharrison at 2009-05-27 16:10:36 UTC on #highaltitude
[19:03] <m0tek> single s
[19:03] <m0tek> whoops
[19:04] <m0tek> Laurenceb: might be around briefly on friday
[19:04] <Laurenceb> I'll try and get my repeater ready
[19:05] <m0tek> same
[19:05] <m0tek> well, listener
[19:05] <m0tek> shame, i am now set up to mobile listen
[19:05] <m0tek> but can't chase this friday
[19:08] <sbasuita> Guess who's back...
[19:08] <m0tek> ?
[19:08] <m0tek> G8KHW: the 12Z is now on our predictor
[19:09] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, did you buy the phone
[19:09] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, yes.
[19:09] <DanielRichman> bbl
[19:09] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, how much?
[19:10] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, just under £10
[19:10] <DanielRichman> food is ready; bbl.
[19:10] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, ok so tomorrow, am i good to come round and build the antenna?
[19:10] <m0tek> G8KHW: up at 5, down at 6, to 31, seems to bring it back a bit further east and north, but not much
[19:17] <sbasuita> .seen jcoxon
[19:17] <herabot> sbasuita: I last saw jcoxon at 2009-05-27 16:23:48 UTC on #highaltitude
[19:18] <sbasuita> Need to make that time fuzzy; shouldn't have to remember the date ;P
[19:19] <m0tek> !battle zeusbot vs herabot
[19:19] <m0tek> seen ??seen !seen .seen jcoxon
[19:24] <G8KHW> m0tek: thanks - did u see my email
[19:25] <m0tek> G8KHW: re helium, yes
[19:25] <m0tek> very puzzling
[19:26] <Laurenceb> whats puzzling?
[19:26] <G8KHW> all I'm left with is payload drag
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[19:26] <Laurenceb> weird ascent rate?
[19:26] <m0tek> rjharrison: am up for some dl compilation
[19:26] <G8KHW> Laurenceb: the ascent rate on XABEN5/6
[19:27] <Laurenceb> got a graph?
[19:27] <G8KHW> yeah
[19:27] <rjharrison> Cool
[19:27] <G8KHW> sure - hang on
[19:27] <Laurenceb> considered varying temperature?
[19:28] <G8KHW> http://imagebin.org/50565
[19:29] <rjharrison> prety constant
[19:29] <Laurenceb> hmm looks sensible
[19:29] <G8KHW> it was slow all the way up
[19:29] <Laurenceb> oh
[19:30] <G8KHW> actually the AR changed from 2.1 to 2.8m/s over the flight
[19:30] <Laurenceb> did you measure the lift before takeoff?
[19:30] <G8KHW> yep
[19:30] <Laurenceb> hmm maybe it was solar heating of the envelope
[19:30] <G8KHW> 1Kg of free lift (allowing for the payload)
[19:35] <Laurenceb> whats the predicted ascent rate?
[19:41] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, building the antenna tomorrow sounds like a good idea; Will talk to my parents soon; then discuss on jabber.
[19:48] <G8KHW> Laurenceb: 5m/sec
[19:48] <G8KHW> http://imagebin.org/50568
[19:49] <G8KHW> ascent rate averages for each 1/2 hour
[19:49] <Laurenceb> odd
[19:49] <Laurenceb> what sort of balloon?
[19:49] <G8KHW> 1500 totex
[19:49] <rjharrison> A round one :)
[19:49] <Laurenceb> hmm
[19:49] <G8KHW> KCI1500
[19:49] <Laurenceb> anything odd about the surface?
[19:49] <G8KHW> nope
[19:50] <G8KHW> nothing odd at all
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> with what payload
[19:50] <G8KHW> I checked the helium
[19:50] <G8KHW> is OK
[19:50] <Laurenceb> it wasnt air/helim?
[19:51] <G8KHW> nope
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> the constant ascent rate only works for a balloon of zero internal pressure, isothermal and same external atmospheric constituents
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> I mean - was there a draggy chute on the bottom
[19:51] <G8KHW> the payload may be quite "draggy" but that doesn't explain the slow AR at high altitude
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> non-zero balloon internal pressure causing it to be a bit smaller
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> - but that should be a smal effect
[19:53] <Laurenceb> maybe you accidentally used the wrong balloon?
[19:53] <Laurenceb> http://www.starfield-balloons.com/solar_balloon.html <- nice
[19:59] <G8KHW> unlikly - smaller balloons with the same free lift would result in an even faster AR
[19:59] <G8KHW> and the next bigist balloon I have is a 3000
[20:00] <rjharrison> :)
[20:00] <G8KHW> (with a bigger neck - i think I would have noticed)
[20:03] Action: SpeedEvil ponders reynolds number.
[20:03] <natrium42> hi
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[20:06] Action: Laurenceb poinders high altitude with solar tetroons
[20:07] <rjharrison> hi natrium42
[20:07] <natrium42> yo rjharrison
[20:07] <rjharrison> you waking up?
[20:07] <rjharrison> or is it lunch time
[20:08] <natrium42> nah, just opened the laptop
[20:08] <natrium42> woke up a while ago
[20:11] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC03hmS1Brk
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[20:49] Nick change: grummund|away -> grummund
[20:58] <m0tek> natrium42: after having firefox on my eeepc complain about the slow script on the tracker, it reminds me - wasn't there a guy at google working on speeding it up?
[21:01] <Laurenceb> http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/27/1952255&from=rss
[21:02] <m0tek> speed + iphone friendly = BIG WIN for peeps in cars
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=yellow+letters+hitchikers+guide
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> err
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/27/1920227
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> even
[21:13] <Laurenceb> ooh openstreet map has contours
[21:13] <Laurenceb> nice
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> there is a presentation with contours
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> not sure if it's the default
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> it's off the SRTM data
[21:14] <Laurenceb> SRTM?
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> http://munin.openstreetmap.org/openstreetmap/tile.openstreetmap-apache_accesses.html
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> :)
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> slashdot effect in operation
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> Shuttle Realtime Topographic Mission
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> or something
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> Radar
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> it was a sidescan radar array pointed out the payload bay for a few days
[21:15] <Laurenceb> ah
[21:16] <Laurenceb> be intereting to compare it to orbinance survey
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> Generated 90m grid over the world, and 30m inside the US
[21:16] <Laurenceb> they use really old data
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> 'd be nice to have the raw data
[21:16] <Laurenceb> the res is lower
[21:16] <Laurenceb> but I bet theres fewer errors
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> it's not quite that simple
[21:17] <SpeedEvil> there are significant errors in the data - especially as you get to the limits of the data
[21:17] <Laurenceb> ordinance survey was all done by hand >100 years or so ago as I understand it
[21:17] <SpeedEvil> I think it goes to +-60n
[21:17] <SpeedEvil> so 56n - me - forex - am at teh edge prettyy much
[21:35] <natrium42> m0tek, i will fix it for friday
[21:36] <natrium42> the problem is that currently initial load of the positions is via javascript
[21:36] <natrium42> where it shsould be via php
[21:37] <m0tek> uhuh
[21:38] <m0tek> that's exactly where kit fell over
[21:38] <m0tek> opera doesn't compain so much, but then it's faster
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[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: any reason why reposting the old n-prize thread?
[21:46] <Laurenceb> just interesting :P
[21:49] <Laurenceb> I dont think its possible tho
[21:49] <Laurenceb> - cant see a way to pump the propellants
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> yeah - I'm tired ATM - I went to respond to the same post I replied to last time :)
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> Pressure-fed blowdown
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> if you can accept multiple stages
[21:51] <Laurenceb> I looked at it a bit more
[21:51] <Laurenceb> three stage balloon launched might just be possible with He tanks
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[21:51] <Laurenceb> - 300bar carbon fibre He tank pressurising the ullage space
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> hmm
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[21:52] <Laurenceb> but it has to be at least three stage, balloon launched and over 100Kg total mass
[21:52] <Laurenceb> not very practical
[21:52] <Laurenceb> and very expensive
[21:52] <Laurenceb> about 40% of the mass will be the He pressurisation
[21:53] <natrium42> Laurenceb, just use antimatter
[21:53] <Laurenceb> haha
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> have you done the numbers for just pressuring an oversized tank?
[21:55] <Laurenceb> no
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[21:55] <Laurenceb> but its be similar performance wise
[21:56] <SpeedEvil> probably
[21:56] <mc-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CU_Spaceflight - there's a link to UKHAS, but no article yet
[22:00] <mc-> Laurenceb, why not use blowdown at a lower chamber pressure? (since 40% of mass is He pressurisation)
[22:00] <Laurenceb> ISP drops at lower chamber pressure
[22:00] <mc-> doesn't matter too much about ISP drop, with a lightweight top stage
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[22:03] <mc-> if the oxidiser in the top stage is self pressurizing, that reduces overall stage mass.
[22:06] <mc-> have you seen the rattworks tribrids? they should have a lower final mass than a hybrid
[22:06] <mc-> by the way, the gyro has arrived
[22:07] <Laurenceb> cool
[22:07] <Laurenceb> the problem with scaling up something like the rattworks is maintaining pressure
[22:07] <Laurenceb> especially in a near vacuum
[22:08] <Laurenceb> you need a lot of thermal energy going into the tank
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> thermite!
[22:08] <mc-> nitrous is self pressurizing
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> in some ways
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> not so much if you have a container 90% full, and then drain it to 10%
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[22:09] <mc-> agreed, pressure will drop
[22:10] <Laurenceb> pressurisation is the key
[22:10] <Laurenceb> its possible to even so SSTO from a balloon with a CF tube
[22:10] <Laurenceb> if you can pressurise it
[22:10] <Laurenceb> thats the problem
[22:10] <mc-> if you can put some heat into the nitrous, it will hold the pressure better.
[22:10] <Laurenceb> nitrous is quite low performance
[22:11] <Laurenceb> really need LOX, and H2O2 is about as good
[22:11] <mc-> LOX is too difficult
[22:11] <Laurenceb> not really
[22:11] <Laurenceb> its easy to obtain
[22:12] <mc-> people have spent years developing a biprop
[22:13] <Laurenceb> I think its quite easy to make something basic with a graphite nozzle
[22:14] <Laurenceb> failing that theres a wax hybrid
[22:15] <Laurenceb> but hybrid limits what you can do burn time wise
[22:15] <SpeedEvil> And yes, you might fail, but if you never try, you'll never end up with exciting tank-schrapnel wounds.
[22:17] Action: Laurenceb looks at the pen shrapnel wounds in his neck
[22:18] <Laurenceb> - from when I made the james bond exploding pen
[22:18] <mc-> I've heard that turning a graphite nozzle is messy
[22:18] <Laurenceb> use a vacuum cleaner
[22:19] <mc-> still makes a mess, and shorts out the vacuum cleaner.
[22:20] <Laurenceb> shouldnt do
[22:20] <mc-> anyway, I think this project needs several people to get everything done.
[22:21] <Laurenceb> erm... it needs to have a credible design first :P
[22:22] <mc-> Armadillo iterates their design every few weeks
[22:22] <Laurenceb> haha
[22:23] <Laurenceb> yes and they waste tons of money
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[22:25] <mc-> I don't think it's possible to produce a finished debugged design in a single step
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> Margins help
[22:26] <Laurenceb> sure, but theres been enough work on the topic you can come up with the basic design
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> Planning for 50% of theoretical performance, forex
[22:26] <Laurenceb> theres plently of papers/books on the topic
[22:27] <mc-> getting to 100km is a big project
[22:27] <Laurenceb> but I'm stuck at the pressurization stage :P
[22:27] Action: Laurenceb is thinking LEO
[22:30] <mc-> how about putting the combustion chamber on an arm and spinning it up to pressurize it?
[22:31] <SpeedEvil> works well at large scales
[22:31] <SpeedEvil> but - ...
[22:31] Action: SpeedEvil points at roton
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[22:32] <Laurenceb> heh
[22:32] <mc-> I thought Roton was using the blades for lift?
[22:32] <Laurenceb> one option is a He powered pistonless pump
[22:32] <Laurenceb> it had a rotory rocket as well
[22:33] <mc-> cya
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[22:33] <Laurenceb> but you still need th eheavy helium tank
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> Roton used the blades for lift on landing
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> They used a spun combustion chamber on launch to generate pressurisation
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[22:33] <Laurenceb> yes
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> Well - would have
[22:33] <Laurenceb> He pistonless pump doesnt get you far
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> if more than the test vehicle had ever flown
[22:35] <Laurenceb> using hydrogen perozide catalytic pressurization is prob a bad idea
[22:35] <Laurenceb> apparently the vapour is explosive
[22:35] <Laurenceb> also the temperature needs to be around 300c to stop the water condensiing
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[22:37] <SpeedEvil> My 'design' for one whole-tank pressurant solution was basically a syringe pump, pumping through a catalyst bed that's long enough to ensure no H2O2 vapour gets out
[22:37] <DanielRichman> Anyone here put a Maxim/Dallas DS18S20 or a Radiometrix into EAGLE? What library did you use to represent the parts (well, for the DS18S20 I've just used a transistor, but what about the others?)
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[22:37] <Laurenceb> I used some 0.1'' headers
[22:38] <DanielRichman> hmm; ok
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> and the exhaust goes to a moderately insulated piston - accepting some condensation
[22:38] <Laurenceb> what about the tank walls?
[22:39] <jcoxon> evening all
[22:40] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: still condensation on the tank walls
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I remember I had a partial solution...
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> oh yeah
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> the tank over the pressurant piston area was slightly insulated
[22:41] <Laurenceb> so the tank walls still heat to a few hundered C ?
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> yes
[22:41] <Laurenceb> not good for carbon fibre
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> they take no load though
[22:41] <Laurenceb> hey?
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> I think I was thinking of SS
[22:42] <Laurenceb> right
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> with the CF outside providing most of the strength
[22:42] <Laurenceb> whats inbetween?
[22:43] <Laurenceb> oh... pressurized insulation filled space?
[22:43] <Laurenceb> hmm this might work
[22:45] <Laurenceb> the advantage is you could vent some of the O2/H2O for attitude control
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> yes
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> I was sidestepping that by going all ghetto
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> with thrust vanes
[22:46] <Laurenceb> ok... small high pressure tank with H2O2/He 0.5/0.5 filled, then solenoid valve, then cat into the ullage space
[22:47] <Laurenceb> have a pressure sensor and run it as a "digital pressure regulator"
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> hmm
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[22:47] <Laurenceb> then have solenoid valves venting off through 4 nozzles for attitude control
[22:47] <Laurenceb> this all fits into the top bulkhead on the tank
[22:48] <SpeedEvil> won't that result in the nozzles being near the midpoint
[22:48] <SpeedEvil> if 2 stages
[22:49] <Laurenceb> tank has a kapton or similar liner, then some sort of high temp insulation on the other side then CF outer wall
[22:49] <Laurenceb> not if the secpnd stage is smaller
[22:49] <Laurenceb> but yeah as the propellant is used up...
[22:49] <Laurenceb> and first stage weight goes down
[22:50] <Laurenceb> you'll reach the point where its thrusting through the center of mass
[22:50] <SpeedEvil> I was thinking SS - it can be nice and thin, it's quite nice and smooth so the piston can run on it.
[22:51] <SpeedEvil> 600PSI 300C - ...
[22:51] <SpeedEvil> insulation
[22:51] <SpeedEvil> dunno about perlite
[22:52] <Laurenceb> fibreglass :P
[22:52] <Laurenceb> actually its heavy... there are high temperature plastic foams
[22:53] <Laurenceb> but its a bit over the max temp for standard construction fireproofing foam
[22:53] <Laurenceb> also needs to be open cell
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> why?
[22:55] <Laurenceb> well its powen at STP
[22:55] <Laurenceb> *blown
[22:56] <SpeedEvil> if it's got 600PSI compressive, it's not going to have under 14PSI tensile
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[23:02] <Snomi> sbasuita
[23:02] <Snomi> hey
[23:04] <DanielRichman> hello Snomi
[23:04] <Snomi> hi
[23:04] <Laurenceb> speedevil: you could stack horizontally
[23:04] <Laurenceb> - the stages
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> yes - drag is a huge problem doing that at sea level
[23:06] <Laurenceb> not so much from 30km
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> also - doing that means you still have the nozzle problem, only now it's hitting the side of the other stage(s)
[23:06] <sbasuita> Snomi, yo
[23:06] <sbasuita> Snomi, got ma map ; )
[23:07] <Laurenceb> speedevil:small vertical offsets
[23:08] <Laurenceb> also you could just have one jet per stage
[23:08] <Laurenceb> - attitude stage
[23:08] <Laurenceb> erm attitude jet
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[23:14] <DanielRichman> What value resistor does an opto isolator need to protect it? (photodiode side)
[23:15] <Laurenceb> 2.5k maybe
[23:15] <DanielRichman> k
[23:15] <DanielRichman> I'll use a 2k7
[23:17] <Snomi> sbasuita got ur map?
[23:17] <DanielRichman> Snomi, [23:06] <sbasuita> Snomi, got ma map ; )
[23:17] <Snomi> i know
[23:18] <DanielRichman> doesn't that answer your question then?
[23:18] <Snomi> im making conversation
[23:18] <sbasuita> Snomi, yeh, google maps style
[23:18] <Snomi> w00p
[23:18] <sbasuita> Snomi, wouldn't print a satellite one though
[23:18] <sbasuita> or at least i couldn't find the option
[23:19] <Snomi> prt srn/
[23:19] <Snomi> scrn
[23:19] <sbasuita> ;P
[23:19] <Snomi> just prt hte scrn
[23:19] <Snomi> :P
[23:19] <Snomi> honestly
[23:19] <Snomi> you may as well
[23:19] <Snomi> anyways
[23:19] <Snomi> you;re off topic
[23:19] <sbasuita> :X
[23:20] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, the blog could do with some love
[23:20] <Snomi> no one reads ur blog
[23:20] <Snomi> :P
[23:20] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, go give it some. I'm going to sleep
[23:20] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: splot -2.8*(log(1-(1/(1.16+(1/(y*y*x)))))+log(1-(1/(1.16+2/(y*x)+y*1.16)))+log(1-(1/(1.16+(3/x)+(y*1.16+y*y*1.16)))))
[23:20] <Snomi> o_O
[23:20] <Snomi> brackets ftw?
[23:21] <Laurenceb> 2.8-> ISP of 280, y=mass decrease fraction per stage
[23:21] <Laurenceb> x= initial mass of fuel in first stage
[23:21] <sbasuita> Snomi, just imagine a plane with three trenches and a ridge in a cross ;)
[23:22] <Laurenceb> I assumed fixed mass of 1Kg for valves ect per stage
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[23:22] <Laurenceb> then 16% for CF tubing and pressurization
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> meh - no gnuplot installed ATM
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> need to get proper computer back up
[23:23] <Laurenceb> I thought the figures were sensible for something like a 100mm diameter rocket
[23:23] <Laurenceb> - thats for three stages
[23:24] <Laurenceb> gets you to ~9Km/s with y=0.45 and x=30Kg
[23:24] <Laurenceb> I'm pondering a 5 tube arrangement
[23:25] <Laurenceb> all stacked side by side, two ignited for "1st stage"
[23:25] <Laurenceb> then another 2, then finally the central one
[23:26] <Laurenceb> each tube of order 3 to 4m long
[23:26] <Laurenceb> 100mm diameter
[23:26] <SpeedEvil> dropping each burned out I assume
[23:26] <Laurenceb> yes
[23:27] <Laurenceb> need to get some sensible figures for the mass of the nozzel, injector, top bulkhead and solenoid valves
[23:28] <Laurenceb> for decent CF tube at 500PSI, you can get down to 95% mass fraction
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[23:32] <Laurenceb> this is getting very similar to scorpius... only smaller
[23:32] Action: SpeedEvil tries to remember the name of the 1980s attempt at this.
[23:32] <Laurenceb> http://www.smad.com/analysis/JANNAF_LPS_2005%20(Muss).pdf
[23:32] <Laurenceb> OTRAG
[23:32] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[23:33] <Laurenceb> that was very different, no composites for a start
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> I know
[23:34] <Laurenceb> also they used long tanks with pressurised ullage
[23:36] <Laurenceb> hmm I think the top bulkhead gear is possible in 1Kg
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[23:37] <Laurenceb> - two high pressure solenoid valves, catalyst, and H2O2 tank
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[23:37] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[23:37] <Laurenceb> oh %%^&
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[23:37] <Laurenceb> when the stage is spent you have to drop it
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[23:37] <Laurenceb> hmm
[23:38] <Laurenceb> the central stage would have to do attitude control
[23:38] <Laurenceb> so the others have one valve only
[23:38] <Laurenceb> and it has 5
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[23:57] <Laurenceb> hmm ok with ISP=280, 1kg payload to LEO at deltav of 9Km/s, and a 5 tube design needs to be 10m high
[23:57] <Laurenceb> not really practical
[23:59] <Laurenceb> maybe a 7 tube design - fire 4 then 2 then 1
[00:00] --- Thu May 28 2009