highaltitude.log.20090526

[00:01] <SpeedEvil> flue?
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> oh
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> umm
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> As I understand it, no
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> you can't increase flow
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> oh
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> why do you think you have a constant regression rate, when it reports throttling?
[00:02] <Laurenceb> throtting decreases ISP
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> not when you keep the same chamber pressure
[00:03] <Laurenceb> that would take a variable geometery nozzle
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> Sorry - I'm arguing backwards.
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> Given that it reports throttling, regression must be variable
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> which makes sense somewhat - the boiling film will be less disturbed by lower flow rates
[00:04] <Laurenceb> true
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> this means that you can have a constant chamber pressure
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> and hence constant thrust
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> well - some throat erosion might happen
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> pity LOX isnn't a better regenerative coolant
[00:06] <Laurenceb> the other thing I'm confused about is drag...
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> It's OK to feel confused the first time you put it on.
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:06] <Laurenceb> drag coefficient changes a lot between sub and supersonic?
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> yes
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> supersonic = very draggy
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> as - to a first approximation, the air can't smoothly move out of the way
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> you have to smack it out of the way with no notice
[00:07] <Laurenceb> hmm
[00:07] <Laurenceb> then the other thing is attitude
[00:08] <Laurenceb> at the moment I'm going for attitude defined as a function of time
[00:08] <Laurenceb> guess people have already worked out optimal tragectories
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> I was wondering earlier about the plausibility of a LOX tank inside the combustion chambeer
[00:08] <Laurenceb> hmm I see
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> Heating drives out the LOX in jets, which cool the tank and the heating pressurises it
[00:09] <Laurenceb> the ullage space would burn up
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> dunno if the numbers work though
[00:11] <Laurenceb> the easiest way to do it is pressured LOX, >=two stage rocket
[00:11] <Laurenceb> I think...
[00:11] <Laurenceb> thats if you can pressurize the lox tank
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> basically - trajectory can almost be reduced to 'keep the vertical component of accelleration as low as you can so that you don't burn up, lose control, or incur drag losses that are mitigated by going higher
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> I wonder
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> Take a wax core, coat with pot permang.
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> spray H2O2 into it.
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> No cryo issues, no starting issues
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> Nice dense fuel, so helium use is a minimum
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> s/fuel/oxidiser/
[00:13] <Laurenceb> I was thinking propellant avaliability as well
[00:13] <Laurenceb> I'm not convinced H2O2 and permang are easy to obtain
[00:13] <Laurenceb> LOX is
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> LOX is?
[00:14] <Laurenceb> yes
[00:14] Action: SpeedEvil wishes it was here.
[00:14] <Laurenceb> you could even make it yourself
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> I'll dig out that link
[00:15] <SpeedEvil> When I last tried this I had no issues.
[00:15] <SpeedEvil> I went down the list of chemical suppliers in yellow pages saying 'I'd like to place a small order by credit card'
[00:15] <SpeedEvil> some said no, some said yes.
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> I now have a barrel of H2SO4 and H2O2 in my shed
[00:16] <Laurenceb> ha
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> 35% - when it was bought
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> the H2O2
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> even delivered
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> order@peroxidepropulsion.com
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> I suppose the website is the obvious
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> 200e + 200 for one can (35l)
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[00:20] <Laurenceb> peroxide is rather poor performance... but if it really is obtainable...
[00:20] <Laurenceb> youd need to refine it
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> why?
[00:21] <Laurenceb> to get above 35%
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> the above link was offering 95%
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> or was it 90
[00:22] <Laurenceb> wow ok
[00:22] <SpeedEvil> pity transport is a bit spendy.
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> I suppose you could always go to sweden, and come back on the chunnel, with it in a big backpack.
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> wires hanging out optional
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> I'm having DNS and other problems
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> des the above website exist?
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> does
[00:24] <Laurenceb> which one?
[00:24] <Laurenceb> oh
[00:24] <Laurenceb> https://www.usafa.edu/df/dfas/Papers/20042005/Testing%20of%20Paraffin-Based%20Hybrid%20Rocket%20Fuel%20Using%20Hydrogen%20Peroxide%20Oxidizer%20-%20Brown.doc
[00:24] <Laurenceb> yes it exists
[00:25] <Laurenceb> that paper gives >250 ISP
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> which isn't quite as easy as LOX - but it doesn't tend to boil off and cause major contraction issues, or ...
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> (not to say that it's trouble free)
[00:27] <Laurenceb> you can pressurise the tank with a catalyst
[00:28] <SpeedEvil> that too
[00:28] <SpeedEvil> but that's getting into a little bit complex and easy to get wrong in a tank-explody way.
[00:29] <Laurenceb> probably the eaiest way
[00:31] <Laurenceb> have a cap on the nozzle, then some pyros inside that expose the catalyst
[00:32] <SpeedEvil> catalyst is also a bit problematic for HTP
[00:32] <SpeedEvil> silver - the common one - melts
[00:32] <Laurenceb> cant you use part of a cars cat?
[00:32] <SpeedEvil> Umm.
[00:33] <SpeedEvil> I honestly don't know.
[00:33] <Laurenceb> I think it may work
[00:33] <SpeedEvil> the temperature is _lots_ higher
[00:33] <Laurenceb> they are based on ceramic
[00:34] <SpeedEvil> 'ceramic' is a somewhat broad term :)
[00:36] <SpeedEvil> what's the volume ratio of wax:h2o2?
[00:36] <SpeedEvil> the mass ratio is what - 4:1?
[00:36] <SpeedEvil> Err - 3:1
[00:36] <Laurenceb> mass is ~ 7 from that paper I linked
[00:36] Action: SpeedEvil has forgotten
[00:37] <SpeedEvil> 7Kg of wax to 1 of H2o2?
[00:37] <SpeedEvil> so that's 10:1 by volume. hmm
[00:38] <SpeedEvil> that means the tank for the h2o2 will be about 1/12 or so the length of the combustion chamber
[00:38] <SpeedEvil> which isn't too bad at all
[00:38] <SpeedEvil> add another 12th for a helium tank, and that's not bad.
[00:38] <SpeedEvil> even assuming you allow it to blow down to 300PSI
[00:39] <Laurenceb> surely not...
[00:39] <SpeedEvil> what?
[00:40] <Laurenceb> about 6:1 H2O2 to wax by volume
[00:40] <SpeedEvil> oh - well - 2/5ths or so, not 2/12ths
[00:41] <Laurenceb> your figured were the wrong way around
[00:41] <Laurenceb> *figures
[00:41] <SpeedEvil> I was assuming '7' was 7:1 wax:h2o2 by mass
[00:42] <Laurenceb> ok sorry
[00:42] <SpeedEvil> which means about 10:1 by volume - H2O2 is denser - and 12:1 if you count the void
[00:42] <Laurenceb> yes
[00:42] <Laurenceb> that paper had rather poor performance
[00:43] <Laurenceb> looks to me like their wax was disintegrating quite badly
[00:43] <Laurenceb> I bet they had lots of unburnt large droplets leaving the chamber
[00:44] <SpeedEvil> I suppose if you have another half of hte rocket containing a H2O2 tank, part-filled with helium, that just blows down, with no regulation, with just a insulated bulkhead to the chamber , that gets you really quite simple indeed.
[00:44] <SpeedEvil> it is damn simple though
[00:44] <SpeedEvil> not perhaps very high performance.
[00:44] <SpeedEvil> but little to go wrong
[00:45] <Laurenceb> well in that paper they use a catalyst
[00:45] <Laurenceb> so the wax burns in GOX/steam
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> it'd be interesting to see if you could avoid that
[00:50] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:50] <Laurenceb> but it has the advantage its self igniting
[00:51] <SpeedEvil> so is it if you put potassium permanganate on the walls of the chamber
[00:53] <Laurenceb> http://www.google.co.uk/patents?id=AAWEAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=hydrogen+peroxide+wax+hybrid+rocket&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0_0#PPA5,M1
[00:54] <SpeedEvil> Sometimes I hate patents.
[00:55] <Laurenceb> were screwed :P
[01:06] <Laurenceb> apparently car cats go up to 1100C before the ceramic (alu oxide) structure starts to warp
[01:10] <SpeedEvil> but, will the catalytic dust stay there
[01:10] <Laurenceb> dunno
[01:10] <Laurenceb> it has to be strong enough to last for years in a car
[01:11] <Laurenceb> I'm not sure on the pore size
[01:11] <SpeedEvil> operating conditions are so utterly different
[01:11] <Laurenceb> and how well it would work...
[01:14] <Laurenceb> hmm smash up cat and use the shards inside some container maybe
[01:24] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
[01:58] <Laurenceb> http://www.arcaspace.ro/suborbital/en/stabilo.htm
[01:59] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqnSNjLW0rE
[02:01] <Laurenceb> very different
[02:02] <Laurenceb> so many novel techniques all in one :
[02:05] <Ikarus> isn't a liquid catalyst for the H2O2 an idea ?
[02:06] <Laurenceb> maybe...
[02:06] <Laurenceb> dont want to overheat the tank
[02:07] <Ikarus> well, it is a catalyst, so it isn't consumed in the process, that adds risk
[02:08] <Laurenceb> hmm whats used?
[02:08] <Ikarus> hrm, nothing that would pass modern enviromental review
[02:09] <Ikarus> manganese dioxide and silver are normally common catalysts for it
[02:10] <Ikarus> MnO2 is in many alkaline batteries
[02:10] <Laurenceb> sure, but for liquid catalyst, what do you use?
[02:11] <Ikarus> I am trying to recall
[02:11] <Ikarus> iirc one of the german WW2 rockets used it that way
[02:13] <Ikarus> potassium permangnate in water
[02:13] <Ikarus> that's the one I was thinking of
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[02:15] <Laurenceb> ok
[02:16] <Laurenceb> I wonder how thats going to work... the mixture may froth up...
[02:16] <Laurenceb> if you try to boil off the entire tank in <30seconds or so...
[02:17] <Ikarus> Laurenceb: btw, for platinum catalysts and the like, give Shell catalysts a call
[02:17] <Laurenceb> heh ok thanks
[02:17] <Ikarus> last I heard they didn't mind selling to small groups doing experimental stuff
[02:17] <Laurenceb> http://www.mai202.ru/publication/PPT/2007_seminar_HA.ppt
[02:18] <Laurenceb> thanks for the pointer
[02:22] <Laurenceb> its be perfect if you could inject liquid catalyst straight into the H2O2 tank and take off GOX/steam from the top
[02:24] <SpeedEvil> I think that's gonna risk an explosion
[02:25] <SpeedEvil> you _REALLY_ don't want to heat up your H2O2 with a catalyst in there
[02:25] <SpeedEvil> as the reaction rate doubles every 10C
[02:27] <Laurenceb> lol yeah good point
[02:27] Action: Laurenceb is reminded of his hydrogen generator
[02:27] <Laurenceb> that blew up half my garden when I made that mistake :P
[02:31] <Laurenceb> NaOH+ aluminium powder
[02:45] <Laurenceb> http://www.ad6uy.com/sac-l5/motor-test.html
[02:48] <Laurenceb> thats pretty much what I've been thinking of, only I'd use wax and avoid the extra pressurisation tank
[02:49] <Laurenceb> also build it all around a single carbon fibre tube
[02:49] <Laurenceb> with alu bulkheads
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[06:32] <mc_-> morning
[06:41] <mc_-> unreasonablerocket.blogspot.com/
[06:41] <mc_-> has a h2o2 rocket
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[07:10] <mc_-> morning all
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[08:43] <natrium42> hi mc_- & edmoore
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[08:43] <edmoore> hi
[08:43] <natrium42> all well?
[08:43] <edmoore> just about to head down to the department
[08:43] <edmoore> worky time
[08:43] <edmoore> all well, ep ta
[08:43] <natrium42> <--- sleepy time soon
[08:43] <edmoore> u?
[08:44] <natrium42> likewise
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[08:44] <natrium42> how is project hobble?
[08:44] <natrium42> yo jcoxon
[08:45] <jcoxon> good morning natrium42
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[08:47] Action: natrium42 is watching soyuz tm-15 integration video
[08:47] <natrium42> *tma even
[08:48] <natrium42> http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=8422
[08:49] <jcoxon> :-)
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[10:19] <M0TEK> any C++ types in?
[10:20] <M0TEK> i mean type in the 'person' sense rather than the computer scince sense
[10:21] <G8KHW> u can try me for a Q - I'm more of a standard C chap though
[10:21] <M0TEK> That's the problem - I want to use sprintf but I actually want to use something a bit more him and cool and trendy and c++. We're meant to be sticking to "correct" standard for this project
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[10:23] <M0TEK> so for example I want to do 'Parse error: Expected %s in line %d', 'connect-to',27
[10:23] <G8KHW> there is a equivelent built in to C++ (but I bet it just calls sprintf below it)
[10:24] <M0TEK> people seem to want to split up the original string and then tack bits into it then bake it back together, all with stringstreams. I don't want to have to split all these strings up with this implimentation, ideally
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[10:29] <G8KHW> somthing like
[10:29] <G8KHW> cout << "Parse error: expected " << string << "in line" << line_no
[10:29] <G8KHW> ;
[10:30] <G8KHW> methinks
[10:30] <M0TEK> i.e. the string 'Expected %s in line %d' already exists in a lookup table of error messages, and we just grab that string and replace the specific values as appropriate. I am loathed if i have to split the string up and reconstruct it as string << 'Expected' << comment << 'in line' << linenumber
[10:30] <M0TEK> that's a pita!
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[10:48] <rjharrison> M0TEK I have the answer
[10:54] <rjharrison> #define DEBUG(arg...) \
[10:54] <rjharrison> printf(arg)
[10:54] <rjharrison> DEBUG("I am in Line number : %d\n", __LINE__);
[10:55] <rjharrison> Ping Futurity: Good to see you at the w/e
[10:56] <M0TEK> rjharrison: ta
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[10:59] <rjharrison> Preprocessor directives are cool
[11:14] <Futurity> the Weekend launch was a lot of fun
[11:14] <Futurity> my 7 year old son loved it
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[11:28] <Futurity> Steve, many thanks for the launch invite. I really appreciate it
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[13:55] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
[14:02] <Futurity> Hi
[14:02] <Futurity> Please excuse me for asking such a simple question,
[14:03] <Futurity> but may I ask why only a single balloon is used to carry payloads (perhaps this isn't the normal configuration)?
[14:03] <SpeedEvil> how do you arrange two?
[14:03] <SpeedEvil> so they don't rub - possibly reducing their life
[14:04] <Futurity> Surely it is best to lift the payload as quickly as possible, so that the landing site is close by?
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> and in a very, very light manner
[14:04] <Futurity> i see
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> well - even if you do that, it's not the case
[14:04] <jcoxon> Futurity, yes but the quicker you go requires more helium
[14:04] <jcoxon> which means they burst earlier
[14:04] <Futurity> so that is the reason, they rub and burst early?
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> go up instantly, and the payload on the chute may drift 10-50Km or more coming down
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> you can easily buy larger balloons
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> which removes that issue
[14:05] <Futurity> i see
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> but more helium means more expense - and reduces burst altitude
[14:05] <rjharrison> also only one ballon may burst
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> (for a given balloon)
[14:05] <jcoxon> double balloons are difficult to configure, they like to twist around each other
[14:06] <Futurity> So the cost of a bigger balloon and more helium, outweighs the benifit of a closer recovery point?
[14:06] <Futurity> i'm only asking because in the UK petrol costs a lot of money
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> not that much - 10p/mile or so
[14:07] <Futurity> perhaps more petrol is used than the cost of more helium
[14:07] <Futurity> true
[14:07] <jcoxon> Futurity, it depends a lot on what you want out of the flight
[14:07] <Futurity> but how much helium is used to fill the normal sized balloons?
[14:08] <Futurity> i see
[14:08] <Futurity> so if the payload is carried slowly
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> 1m^3 is approximately 1Kg of lift
[14:08] <Futurity> it reaches the burst point slower
[14:08] <Futurity> giving you a longer flight
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> yes - as the balloon is less infflated
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> so it rreaches teh burst diameter at a lower atmospheric pressure - higher
[14:09] <Futurity> so it would be possible to do an almost straight up straight down mission
[14:09] <Futurity> but you wouldn't get much time at the top
[14:09] <rjharrison> Yep if there is no wind anywhere
[14:09] <jcoxon> Futurity, its not really like that
[14:09] <jcoxon> the helium expands depending on pressure which depends on altitude
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> if you went up instantly, you'd end up 10-100km or so downrange
[14:09] <rjharrison> You can do cool atmospheric loops too
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> depending on weather
[14:10] <jcoxon> your balloon will burst at a particular diameter
[14:10] <jcoxon> so the less helium you put in, the higher the altitude it will reach when the helium expands to burst the balloon
[14:11] <Futurity> i understand that depending on the day, even a quick ascent may mean a long drive
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> and the slower it goes up
[14:11] <rjharrison> eg when jeststream(JS) is going in the opposite direction of ground wind
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> Futurity: or a short one
[14:11] <Futurity> but surely it would mean less of a drive over a slow ascent?
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> nope
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> the winds can in some cases cancel
[14:11] <Futurity> if that was desired (and from what you say the aim is to maximise the time at the top).
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> it all depends on the relative winds and how they change
[14:11] <rjharrison> But rare
[14:12] <jcoxon> basically in reality we don't get good days very often
[14:12] <jcoxon> so we take them when they come
[14:12] <jcoxon> or you'll never launch
[14:12] <Futurity> was Sunday a very rare day?
[14:12] <jcoxon> we've been waiting for a good couple of weeks
[14:12] <Futurity> i take it that it doesn't have to be a sunny day
[14:12] <Futurity> more on jet stream?
[14:12] <rjharrison> Normally the goal in the UK is up and down with loosing it in sea or droping it in London
[14:12] <rjharrison> Yep
[14:13] <rjharrison> Sunny = good pics
[14:13] <rjharrison> not needed for other flights
[14:13] <jcoxon> you are out of the weather very quickly
[14:13] <Futurity> yep, hence my question, because if I do ever get around to launching something, I'd prefer a shorter drive to collect it
[14:13] <Futurity> and hopefully avoid the sea!
[14:13] <jcoxon> :-)
[14:13] <rjharrison> Wait for a windless day
[14:13] <rjharrison> and both ground and js
[14:14] <rjharrison> They do happen a few times each year
[14:14] <rjharrison> Just expect to have a busy load of data
[14:14] <Futurity> so ideal conditions are fairly rare
[14:14] <rjharrison> on the airwaves
[14:14] <jcoxon> yes
[14:14] <Futurity> are they mainly in the summer months?
[14:15] <jcoxon> we are placed right under the jetstream
[14:15] <rjharrison> Yep the nice ones are
[14:15] <jcoxon> Futurity, yes, you want a big high pressure
[14:15] <rjharrison> Some in winter but bloody cold
[14:15] <rjharrison> and rare
[14:15] <jcoxon> that'll clear the ground weather and the js runs around it quite often
[14:15] <jcoxon> such as this friday from the looks of it
[14:15] <rjharrison> hehe
[14:16] <Futurity> so mid summer when there can be long high presure for days on end are good
[14:16] <jcoxon> yes
[14:16] <jcoxon> but the JS isn't completely linked to that
[14:16] <jcoxon> its a bit of a juggling game
[14:17] <Futurity> starting to understand that now ;)
[14:17] <Futurity> but again, if the jet stream is between a certain altitude range (and i don't know much about it)
[14:17] <Futurity> surely it's best to shoot through it as quickly as possible?
[14:18] <jcoxon> yes
[14:18] <Futurity> so another silly question
[14:18] <jcoxon> if you aren't aiming for a big altitude
[14:18] <Futurity> could the helium be vented after the balloon has gone through the jetstream to maximise flight time
[14:18] <jcoxon> indeed it could...
[14:19] <Futurity> but I take it that is not easy, because you aren't do ing that now?
[14:19] <jcoxon> exactly
[14:19] <jcoxon> some of us are working on it
[14:19] <jcoxon> the big issue is at -30C things don't move to well
[14:20] <jcoxon> so getting valves and such to open and close is an issue
[14:20] <Futurity> do electronic controlled valvues exist?
[14:20] <jcoxon> yes
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> All of this is basically trivial - mechanicals - if you're on an unlimited budget
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> you just put a test valve in a thermal vacuum chamber, and see if it works well at -50C and 10mB
[14:21] <Futurity> is hydrogen much cheaper than Helium? Does it leak from the Latex balloon far quicker? (ignoring the risks)
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> if not, you repeat
[14:21] <Futurity> yep
[14:21] <jcoxon> Futurity, it is cheaper
[14:21] <Futurity> this is fun, but i think most people are on a budget
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> If you're an amateur team - and a failed valve means a failed flight, and wasted mooney - it's tempting to go with the easy stiff
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> stuff
[14:21] <jcoxon> and better
[14:21] <rjharrison> No hydrogen bonds to hydorgen and leaks less
[14:22] <rjharrison> You can die using Hydrogen though
[14:22] <jcoxon> more lift
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> I'm not sure hydrogen is in fact that dangerous.
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> Go and look on youtube
[14:22] <jcoxon> its not taht dangerous
[14:22] <jcoxon> but its more hte public perception
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> there is a pic of an exploding 1m^3 hydrogen balloon
[14:22] <Futurity> The lift isn't much better is it
[14:22] <Futurity> just cheaper
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> it'ss basically a bonfire sort-of-equivalent - for 2-3 seconds
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> maybe throwihg around a few grams of burning latex
[14:22] <jcoxon> ballooning is allowed but its slightly a grey area
[14:22] <rjharrison> I'd stck to He but feel free to play with Hydrogen
[14:23] <Futurity> lol
[14:23] <jcoxon> adding the public fear of Hydrogen
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> hydrogen runs the risk of it being hard to argue that you're sane
[14:23] <jcoxon> and people get upset
[14:23] <rjharrison> Hindenburg ...
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> 'you're filling your balloon with WHAT?
[14:23] <Futurity> lol
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> neglecting the fact that teh worst case is pretty much a launch fire, and it can't come down intact
[14:23] <Futurity> but the hydrogen isn't mixed with oxygen
[14:23] <rjharrison> Static is not good at the filling time
[14:23] <Futurity> surely it burns from the outside in
[14:24] <rjharrison> Once sealed you are probably fine
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> IMO - with a nice hands-off filling station, it's quite safe.
[14:24] <Futurity> but still enough to kill you
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> If you're feeling paranoid, you might put on some leather clothes, and a full facemask
[14:25] <Futurity> from Sunday's launch with all three people being within 1 metre of the balloon during filling, perhaps it's not that safe
[14:25] <rjharrison> There are some guys in america who do this... They happen to be firemen
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> As long as you absolutely never fill a balloon with a trace of aair in it.
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> And have a shutoff valve remote from the balloon
[14:25] <rjharrison> Long and short He is easier and safer but ! cheaper
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> Basically - plan for a 5 second or so bonfire the size of the balloon, and a lump of burning oil thrown at you the weight of the balloon, and you're safe.
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[14:26] <edmoore> yo all
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> (if you never ever fill a ballon with a trace of air in it, and ensure the tubes are properly purged of air first)
[14:26] <edmoore> jcoxon: will do in a jiff
[14:26] <jcoxon> edmoore, oh it won't work
[14:26] <jcoxon> just worked out whats wrong
[14:27] <edmoore> ok
[14:27] <jcoxon> will get a new one in a bit
[14:31] <Futurity> I'll cross Hydrogen off of my list ;)
[14:32] <edmoore> :)
[14:33] <SpeedEvil> IMO hydrogen can be done safely - doing it safely isn't completely trivial though.
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[14:34] <SpeedEvil> Helium has its hazards too - a knocked over cylinder with teh valve knocked offf can be a very lethal missille
[14:42] <edmoore> jcoxon: up to much atm?
[14:44] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[14:44] <jcoxon> no not too much
[14:44] <jcoxon> how can i help?
[14:44] <edmoore> i mean generally, post exams and stuf
[14:44] <jcoxon> oh right
[14:45] <jcoxon> i have exams in about 4 weeks time
[14:45] <jcoxon> and about to go on placement
[14:45] <jcoxon> non-stop for me
[14:45] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:45] <edmoore> wow
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[14:48] <jcoxon> then i'm off to africa in august till october
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[16:43] <Laurenceb> hi
[16:46] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: ping
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> ong
[16:46] Action: SpeedEvil is sitting in garden, watching birds and fish feed.
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[16:47] <Laurenceb> heh
[16:47] <Laurenceb> have you considered regenerativly colled graphite engines?
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> I found electroplating graphite to be tricky
[16:48] <Laurenceb> nope
[16:48] <Laurenceb> graphite engine with some coolant holes bored in
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> Electroformed copper - if you can use it - is very easy to make
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> not trivial to do - and impossible with the stuff I have around
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> so not really
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> I assume you mean a large number of holes bored tangent to the throat, in a spiral?
[16:49] <Laurenceb> nope
[16:49] <Laurenceb> just some around the perimeter
[16:49] <Laurenceb> so it can be attatched to the carbon fibre body more easily
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> dunno how much that'd do
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> ah
[16:50] <Laurenceb> so you can tap some holes and bolt it into the body
[16:50] <Laurenceb> without everything welting
[16:50] <Laurenceb> *melting
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> sounds plausible - however I don't know if it will cause fractures
[16:51] <Laurenceb> in the graphite?
[16:51] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - thermal fractures due tot eh very high delta-t
[16:52] <Laurenceb> hmm need to look at the thermally induced stress
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> blackbird feding its chick porridge-oats
[16:52] <Laurenceb> how old is the chick?
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> chick is exactly the same size as adult, and could easily get bowl
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> into bowl
[16:53] <Laurenceb> wow they grow fast
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> The finish of the holes might be important
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> too - rough edges might be stress inducers
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> mounting is a headache - unless you go with carbon-carbon composite tube
[16:54] <Laurenceb> a few o rings and some stainless bolts
[16:55] <Laurenceb> I was thinking you could use this design for kerosene/H2O2
[16:55] <Laurenceb> did you see that design I linked last night?
[16:55] <SpeedEvil> unsure
[16:56] <Laurenceb> http://www.ad6uy.com/sac-l5/motor-test.html
[16:56] <SpeedEvil> yweeah - if you can keep the o-rings cool
[16:57] <Laurenceb> hence the cooli9ng
[16:57] <Laurenceb> its more a case of keeping the carbon fibre cool
[16:57] <Laurenceb> you can get high temeperature o rings/gaskets
[16:57] <SpeedEvil> more the matrix :)
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if any higher temp resins/ceramics are not too objectionable to work.
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> as a carbon/foo composite
[16:58] <Laurenceb> that design with a regeneratively cooled graphite nozzel and chamber wall
[16:58] <Laurenceb> then a catalytically pressurised tank
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[16:59] <Laurenceb> would be perfect :P
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> Well - Lox/kero, with a nice radiation cooled nozzle'd be perfect
[16:59] Action: SpeedEvil wishes Rh/Ir wasn't so damn spendy.
[16:59] <Laurenceb> radiation colled graphite is possible
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> yeah - graphite is quite reactive at elevated temps though
[17:00] <Laurenceb> theres some very decent graphite rod avaliable
[17:00] <Laurenceb> the main problem as I see it is attaching to the body
[17:01] <Laurenceb> guess you could attach through the body
[17:01] <Laurenceb> erm injector even
[17:04] <Laurenceb> but there would be soem very high stress in the graphite at the attachment points
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> I suppose a number of refractory pins/bolts with low thermal conductivity, connected at teh top end is about as good as it gets
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> unless you do actually try to cool it
[17:06] <Laurenceb> not sure if such things exist
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> I dunno - something like niobium bolts'd be easy enough to make
[17:10] <SpeedEvil> relatively at least
[17:10] <Laurenceb> the other problem would be catalytic pressurisation
[17:10] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[17:10] <Laurenceb> the hot gas in the ullage space might ignite the kerosene, there would need to be a piston over the kerosene
[17:11] <Laurenceb> guess you could have some thin copper tubes going vertically in the H20" tank
[17:11] <Laurenceb> and electroplated on the inside with silver
[17:13] <Laurenceb> but flow rate into the tubes would be a function of acceleration... not good
[17:16] <Laurenceb> wonder if theres such a thing as electrlytically induced catalysis
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[17:25] <Laurenceb> hmm apparently blood is a liquid catalyst :P
[17:26] Action: Laurenceb contemplates an emo rocket
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[17:30] <SpeedEvil> last was 'emo rocket'
[17:30] Action: SpeedEvil is having issues with network settings.
[17:32] <Laurenceb> didnt miss anything
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[17:33] <rjharrison> ping edmoore
[17:33] <rjharrison> Did james manage a compiled version?
[17:35] <Laurenceb> theres H2o2 fuelc ells
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[17:53] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
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[18:02] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[18:02] <Laurenceb> http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/205437040/Tantalum_tube.html
[18:02] <Laurenceb> ^ SpeedEvil
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> We need some funding.
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[18:03] Action: SpeedEvil calls the north korean embassy.
[18:03] <mc-> edmoore, do you get the yahoo ballooning emails?
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> niobium is much cheaper - as it's used for the jewlery trade
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> tubes of it that is
[18:04] <Laurenceb> how cheap is cheap?
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> from memory, 20 quid for a 100mm length of 25mm tube
[18:09] <Laurenceb> wow
[18:09] <Laurenceb> that is cheap
[18:09] <Laurenceb> then I guess you can shape it on a lathe
[18:09] <SpeedEvil> Dunno
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> It's also then used for electrodes - when coated withe a tiny layer of platinum
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> as the tenacious oxide film seals any holes in the platinised layer
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[18:13] <mc-> speedevil, did you see the unreasonablerocket blog? He's building a H202 biprop
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> no
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> I'm sharply limited in the amount of time I have at the moment, if you've seen the flickr pictures - lots of stuff to do in the garden still
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> though it's getting there
[18:14] <Laurenceb> you can do metal turning like that on a lathe...
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: yes - but metal spinning is limited by the formability of the metal - IIRC columbium needs vacuum annealing after a moderately small amount of cod work.
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> cold work
[18:15] <Laurenceb> argg
[18:15] <Laurenceb> just use graphite :P
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> graphite is nice in some ways yes.
[18:16] <Laurenceb> very cheap and suprisingly strong
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> mc-: I'm trying to first get garden into a sane state, then I've got to repair or replace windows, then finish the insulation of the house, then get assorted stuff sold on ebay
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> s/sold/made and sold/
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[18:18] <mc-> I know the problem, time is always a problem
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> Then maybe some more time/cash for UAV//rocketry/... projects
[18:18] <Laurenceb> http://www.graphitestore.com/itemDetails.asp?item_id=478&prd_id=25&cat_id=22&curPage=2
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> Cash here too - seriously thinking of actually making replacement windows from wood.
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> (and glass)
[18:19] <Laurenceb> go to a salvage yard
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> that's bloody huge.
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> ?
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> oh
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> no - these have to be specific sizes :)
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> and wierd sizes
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> also - no localish salvage yards
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[18:20] <SpeedEvil> Oh - and I have to re-take driving theory test on thu too. Fun.
[18:21] <Laurenceb> you failed ?!
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I managed to get 43/75 twice. The passmark is 44
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> First time I was burned by clicking too often once and scoring 0, the second time I overcompensated
[18:22] <Laurenceb> :-/
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> _stupid_ system.
[18:22] <Laurenceb> oh its not a written test?
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: that is very cheap though - for 12 'square' nozzles - 30 quid per
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> there is a written component - which is no problem
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> and there is a 'video game' type thing
[18:23] <Laurenceb> lol
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> with confusing rules and arbitrary scoring periods.
[18:23] <Laurenceb> grand theft auto
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> presented on flickery low-res CRTs
[18:23] <Laurenceb> heh
[18:24] <Laurenceb> I need to get my drivers license... but this sounds daft
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> For example - you're driving along a road - and you see a car in a cross-street moving out slowly - you're not actually supposed to click until the hazard 'develops'
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> which is when someone arbitrarily tthinks you 'should' react
[18:25] <Laurenceb> I had a go at the theory test, and the questions were pretty stupid
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> if you click too early - when you recognise the hazard, and would be preparing to be possibly slowing down - you may fail
[18:26] <Laurenceb> "whats the biggest hazard in this scene"
[18:26] <Laurenceb> followed by about 10 possible hazards
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> I lol'd at one of the practice questions.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> 'If you have had an argument should you A) .. B) ... C) Have a drink to calm down, then drive.
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> but that's pretty much a doddle for anyone who can read the highway code a couple of times, even if they have no common sense at all.
[18:27] <Laurenceb> rofl
[18:28] <Laurenceb> well I've gtg, cya
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> My problem is that I've probably done maybe 5000 miles (driving mum around after it became difficult for her) so I'm anticipating, and clicking too early much of the time
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[18:28] <SpeedEvil> awqve
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> wave
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[18:33] <mc-> speedevil, http://unreasonablerocket.blogspot.com/ - just to tempt you
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[18:38] <SpeedEvil> As I work on the peroxide system Im re-learning something Ive known for all my professional life, if a vendor charges X for and object or service Y, the odds of you building a Y for less than X are almost zero.  Two examples:
[18:38] <SpeedEvil> truuf
[18:39] <mc-> yes
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> At least for one
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> There are tons of people poppung up in #electronics asking why they can't make a mobile phone/motherboard/... for the selling price
[18:43] <mc-> they don't understand how the industry works
[19:07] m0tek (i=836f0142@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-80136beb6da6a042) joined #highaltitude.
[19:07] <m0tek> hi all
[19:08] <m0tek> mc-: thanks for email. We met him at the SEDs conference a couple of years back. Seemed quite certain that the rocket could only get to 100,000ft rom a 'loon
[19:31] <natrium42> mc-, did you get the mail? :)
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[19:36] <natrium42> hey rjharrison
[19:36] <rjharrison> ni natrium42
[19:36] <rjharrison> hi
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[19:38] <rjharrison> Hi G8KHW
[19:38] <rjharrison> A quick pm
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[19:52] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, we just won the bid on a T68i
[19:53] Nick change: G8KHW -> G8KHW|BBIAB
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[19:54] <Hiena> Ehehehehe... Got a phone from an airplane designer friend, whom working for a national vehicle control buerau, and talked about the new regulation. He revealed the reason of the sudden development on the experimental regulation. Quite hungarian story.
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[19:57] <Hiena> The first request for the amateur and experimental building regulation was sent by the Amateur Airplane Builders Association (which is kind of EAA chapter here) at '96. Since then nothing happened, and the experimental planes was under similar regulation as the mass production planes.
[20:00] <Hiena> At this spring the Corvus Aircraft company built a plane for Peter Bessenyei designed for the RedBull Air race. The plane was showcased at april here, and was on display at Friedrichsafen fair. The last information what i hear from the plane, it was grounded due "legal reason".
[20:00] <mc-> hi natrium42, thanks it arrived today
[20:01] <natrium42> good, good
[20:04] <Hiena> So far, what my pal said, the story got a spin from here. The bureau asked the documentation and the other requirements for the racer (like a three set of prototype, for a static and break tests), and Bessenyei went mad about waiting for the plane because he already paid it, and threated the manufacturer with lawsuit. So the guys at the company put some green oil into the bureu wheels and suddenly the machine spinned up.
[20:11] <Hiena> Back to the 2004 the Goldtimer Fundation bought a used Mig-15 to restore and fly it. They finished the most of the job this year, but the licencing stalled because this plane was never flown in hungary as private plane, so the must to hands all plans and documentation for the bureau, which is not aviable, due these hold by the MIG APO comany. So when the guys from the Corvus started to "pressure" the bureau about the experimental regulati
[20:11] <Hiena> ons, they asked the company, to request the regulation limits, to fit for the MIG-15...
[20:12] <Hiena> So, a more than 10 years long story just ended, because some right guys put the rught amount of money to the right pockets...
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[20:33] Nick change: G8KHW|BBIAB -> G8KHW
[20:38] <m0tek> G8KHW: sorry got confuzed. have emailed
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[21:56] <edmoore> rjharrison: how do you power your eee in the road?
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[21:58] <rjharrison> Charger from http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=161600
[21:59] <edmoore> cool ta
[21:59] <rjharrison> np
[21:59] <rjharrison> i'm done for tonight
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[21:59] <rjharrison> laters all
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[22:14] <edmoore> http://failblog.org/2009/05/13/digital-camera-description-fail/
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[22:43] <Laurenceb> hi
[22:53] <natrium42> ih
[22:53] <natrium42> ?uoy era woh
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[00:00] --- Wed May 27 2009