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[00:41] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: I think it really takes at least a LOX pump to make a small rocket practical
[00:41] <Laurenceb> CF pressurised LOX tank is possible, but pressurisation kit gets very heavy
[00:44] <SpeedEvil> you mean not just to fill the tanks?
[00:44] <SpeedEvil> I don't know.
[00:45] <Laurenceb> well have a second tank of helium at higher pressure
[00:45] <Laurenceb> then a solenoid valve/pressure reg to maintain LOX ullage pressure
[00:45] <Laurenceb> it gets stupidly heavy
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> If you look at it instead of 'Ooooh - look at this maximum ISP!' as 'I can get 50% better ISP than hybrid with low chamber pressure, ...'
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> Which relaxes a lot of the constraines
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> but of course, means you can't even think of ssto
[00:46] <Laurenceb> you can get 340 with hybrid
[00:46] <Laurenceb> struggle to get much higher with beprop
[00:46] <Laurenceb> *biprop
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> what hybrid?
[00:47] Action: SpeedEvil remembers the LOX/salami hybrid.
[00:47] <Laurenceb> wax/lox
[00:47] <Laurenceb> lol
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> I'd wonder about melting problems
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> suppose you'd dope it with lots and lots of carbon black
[00:48] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> (to stop IR going through the wax)
[00:48] <Laurenceb> theres some nasa paper s on it
[00:48] <Laurenceb> they considered it for a solid booster replacement
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> Also
[00:49] <Laurenceb> would have given a large performance increase apparently
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> 'works well with a 15m tall chamber' != works well with a 0.5m tall chamber
[00:50] <Laurenceb> their test used a 6 inch diameter grain
[00:50] <Laurenceb> and similar sized chamber
[00:50] <SpeedEvil> especially with low chamber pressure
[00:50] <Laurenceb> 500psi
[00:50] <SpeedEvil> interesting
[00:50] <SpeedEvil> I wonder about H2O2/wax then
[00:51] <SpeedEvil> has the advantage that you can pressurise it fairly easily using a catalyser
[00:51] <Laurenceb> they didn't add magnesium powder, but apparently you could get extra ISP using that
[00:51] <SpeedEvil> At the cost of lots of nozzle wear
[00:51] <Laurenceb> well you can make a pressuriser for LOX using some sort of gas generator
[00:51] <Laurenceb> but the tank gets heavy
[00:52] <Laurenceb> if you could make a lightweight pump...
[00:52] <Laurenceb> SSTO from a HAB is certainly possible
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> One of the big advantages of biprop (as I saw it for my design) was that it can give you engines with long life.
[00:52] <Laurenceb> as in reusable?
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> Which means that you can have half an hour of burn time and 20 starts on them before flying
[00:52] <Laurenceb> ah yeah
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> Not so much bothering about the reusable aspect
[00:53] <Laurenceb> they demonstrated restart with LOX/wax
[00:53] <SpeedEvil> but actual all-up testing of the stage as it is to be flown
[00:53] <Laurenceb> but you have to be carful not to overheat it
[00:53] <SpeedEvil> I'd imagine heat soak is an issue :)
[00:53] <Laurenceb> yes
[00:53] <Laurenceb> they had firbe reingforced (wood pulp?) and carbon black in the mix
[00:54] <SpeedEvil> all-up testing - full on testing of the guidance and everything - all you do is refuel and charge the bats and go.
[00:54] <Laurenceb> http://www.stanford.edu/~cantwell/News_articles_on_our_work/AviationWeek_Feb20_03.pdf
[00:54] <SpeedEvil> possibly polyester fibre.
[00:54] <SpeedEvil> I've got a bag of that here for concrete
[00:54] <SpeedEvil> should work just fine for rockets
[00:55] <SpeedEvil> very neat
[00:55] <Laurenceb> it burns a bit fast
[00:55] <SpeedEvil> you mean you have to burn it fast, or it melts?
[00:55] <Laurenceb> ideal for shuttle boosters...
[00:55] <Laurenceb> the regression rate it about 3 to 5mm/s
[00:56] <Laurenceb> so 50mm radius will burn in 10 s
[00:56] <Laurenceb> first graph
[00:58] <Laurenceb> the fast burn rate is a bit of an issue, but it reignitable, and for high altitude launch its less of an issue
[00:58] <Laurenceb> certainly good for large rockets
[00:58] <SpeedEvil> interesting
[00:58] <SpeedEvil> In principle it'd lend itself to spun guidance
[00:59] <Laurenceb> A dye gives the proper opacity to con-trol melting, creating a 0.004-in.-thick liq-uid layer for atomization. Wax is a good insulator. Other additives are for strength they double shear strength and increase toughness sixfold. The additives total to about 1% of the wax and make it appear black
[01:00] <Laurenceb> sound like carbon black + fibres, there might be room to tweak it a bit for better performance in small rockets
[01:00] <SpeedEvil> Problem with high regression rate is that it implies a huge throat and nozzle
[01:00] <SpeedEvil> I think
[01:01] <SpeedEvil> Yeah
[01:01] <SpeedEvil> If you've got a 600PSI chamber, and burn 10Kg of fuel in 100 seconds, you need a throat 1/10th the size of the same chamber burning in 10s
[01:02] <SpeedEvil> which means you (for the same expansion ratio) need a 3* larger throat and nozzle
[01:02] <Laurenceb> hmm yeah
[01:02] <Laurenceb> its bad for small rockets
[01:03] <SpeedEvil> Of course if you can get te regression rate much faster, tehre is an easy solution.
[01:03] <SpeedEvil> Nozzleless case-consuming end-burner
[01:03] <Laurenceb> still, you can get only slightly lower ISP with more convensional propellants
[01:03] <Laurenceb> but it'll cost a bit more
[01:03] <SpeedEvil> and then you might think about burn rate retarders
[01:04] <Laurenceb> the main problem is getting LOX into the chamber
[01:06] <Laurenceb> some sort of two chamber pistonless pump based on injection of methanol or similar into lox filled chambers springs to mind
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> I wonder about high-melting point wax shells filled with H2O2, dispersed in low-melt wax
[01:06] <Laurenceb> you might be able to use the waste gas for attitude control
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> Probably not work
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> oddly - found a source of HTP
[01:07] <Laurenceb> H2O2 is a paint to obtain
[01:07] <Laurenceb> oh
[01:07] <Laurenceb> where?
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> they'll actually ship palletes to individuals
[01:07] <Laurenceb> finsburn park mosque?
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> IIRC about 1200e for a pallet shipped of 8*40l
[01:08] <Laurenceb> not bad
[01:08] <Laurenceb> but it decomposes... and you really want to refine it
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> it's 90%
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> or 95%
[01:08] <Laurenceb> wow
[01:09] <Laurenceb> hmm I hard some rumors that spaceship 2 will be using lox/wax
[01:10] <Laurenceb> that H2O2 sounds interesting, but LOX is still a lot higher ISP
[01:10] <Laurenceb> oh well I'd better get some sleep, cya
[01:10] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[01:10] <SpeedEvil> wave
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[01:21] <natrium42> no can has pics? :(
[01:28] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
[01:57] <josepharmbruster> hey all, i'm back
[01:57] <josepharmbruster> going to do a bit more research tonight on all this
[01:58] <josepharmbruster> what's the name of the wire that you can apply a charge to, in order to release the balloon if necessary?
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[02:13] <natrium42> josepharmbruster, nichrome?
[02:14] <josepharmbruster> natrium42: yessum ! just found in on youtube :-)
[02:14] <josepharmbruster> i'm starting to solidify my project idea now. i have 4 balloons right now
[02:14] <natrium42> cool :)
[02:15] <natrium42> where are you based?
[02:15] <josepharmbruster> orlando florida
[02:15] <natrium42> ah, right
[02:15] <josepharmbruster> florida - the water mine capital :-)
[02:15] <natrium42> hehe
[02:15] <josepharmbruster> so, i'm thinking, my 200g balloon, i'm going to simply go for telemetry and coordinated cut-down
[02:16] <josepharmbruster> and test of the payloads protection from water
[02:16] <josepharmbruster> (post landing)
[02:16] <natrium42> do you have a boat just in case?
[02:17] <josepharmbruster> newp, but i may know someone with a boat
[02:17] <josepharmbruster> Just In Case :-)
[02:18] <natrium42> hehe
[02:18] <natrium42> or add a big enough battery
[02:18] <natrium42> and hope that it floats to shore
[02:19] <josepharmbruster> lithium batteries float ?
[02:19] <josepharmbruster> i wouldn't have expected that :-)
[02:19] <natrium42> nah
[02:19] <josepharmbruster> i'm depating as to whether or not I want to create the payload manually...
[02:19] <josepharmbruster> debating*
[02:19] <natrium42> but you will need enough power to last a few weeks
[02:19] <natrium42> :P
[02:20] <SpeedEvil> create manually?
[02:20] <SpeedEvil> As opposed to imagining it's there?
[02:20] <josepharmbruster> buy the material to create it with, cut it out myself and all
[02:20] <josepharmbruster> hahahah, nooo
[02:20] <josepharmbruster> i've seen some people that have used small styrafoam coolers and such
[02:20] <SpeedEvil> ah
[02:21] Action: josepharmbruster dreams a little
[02:21] Action: SpeedEvil just read an email I got back in 2008 - and fouind that the nice EPP block supplier he used has gone away
[02:21] <josepharmbruster> man, i take that back
[02:21] <josepharmbruster> making a table like this is a Great idea!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME0WgH-AAdc
[02:21] <josepharmbruster> it's like a nichrome scroll saw
[02:21] <SpeedEvil> Fun stuff - think polystyrene with about the same stiffness that you can bend
[02:22] <josepharmbruster> what type of material do you usually use?
[02:22] <SpeedEvil> I made a BEEEEG one.
[02:22] <josepharmbruster> photos? link?
[02:22] <natrium42> josepharmbruster, i have something similar though it's hacksaw-like
[02:22] <josepharmbruster> i'm closing on a house on friday.... can't wait.. finally be able to have a workshop
[02:23] <SpeedEvil> http://www.mauve.plus.com/Chinese-Lantern.jpg
[02:23] <SpeedEvil> specifically the base
[02:23] <SpeedEvil> cast in one bit in a polystyrene mould.
[02:24] <SpeedEvil> take polystyrene, laminate it till you get a 60cm or so cube
[02:24] <SpeedEvil> now, cut out a sort of u-shape on x and y axes
[02:25] <josepharmbruster> so is polystyrene preferred to styrafoam for high altitude balloons ?!?
[02:25] <SpeedEvil> repeat to form the outside of the legs
[02:25] <SpeedEvil> polystyrene = styrofoam
[02:25] <SpeedEvil> it's a tradename
[02:25] <josepharmbruster> i have a lot to learn about this :-)
[02:25] <SpeedEvil> then pull apart the mould, take out the core, fit into a wooden former, pour concretee
[02:25] <SpeedEvil> fun
[02:26] <josepharmbruster> so do you typically buy polystyrene sheets, premade?
[02:27] <SpeedEvil> they are sold for insulation purposes
[02:27] <SpeedEvil> at large DIY shops
[02:27] <SpeedEvil> and builders merchants
[02:27] <SpeedEvil> and ebay
[02:29] <josepharmbruster> think i found a place :-) http://www.cellofoam.com/aboutus.htm
[02:30] <josepharmbruster> i was doing some research on mold casting
[02:30] <josepharmbruster> in case i wanted to make some interestingly shapped payload
[02:30] Action: SpeedEvil has been doing way too much in the garden. http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/
[02:31] <josepharmbruster> wow, you have one hell of a view from your backyard
[02:31] <SpeedEvil> oops
[02:31] <SpeedEvil> mischan
[02:31] <josepharmbruster> http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/3552019323/ :-)
[02:32] <josepharmbruster> are there any chemical foam products worth considering?
[02:32] <josepharmbruster> say, i didn't want to buy sheets, but wanted to mix a few chems some molding to get a specific shape
[02:33] <SpeedEvil> the foam products are somewhat annoying, but you could do that
[02:33] Action: SpeedEvil finds a link to the stuff he's used
[02:34] <SpeedEvil> http://cfsnet.co.uk/acatalog/CFS_Catalogue__2_Part_Polyurethane_Foam_Liquid_415.html
[02:34] <SpeedEvil> for example
[02:34] <josepharmbruster> i'm looking at some nichrome here: http://mpaksys.homestead.com/nichrome.html
[02:35] <josepharmbruster> probably more than i need, but bygons
[02:36] <SpeedEvil> nichrome isn't needed for cutters really - steel or stainless steel works fine
[02:36] <SpeedEvil> but a nichrome is fine too.
[02:41] <josepharmbruster> interesting, all good tips SpeedEvil !!
[02:42] <josepharmbruster> not sure you know, i had the idea back in jan for the whole balloon thing
[02:42] <josepharmbruster> http://libjoe.blogspot.com/2009/01/weather-balloon-beginning.html
[02:42] <josepharmbruster> i got my technicians license (amateur radio) as a first step
[02:44] <josepharmbruster> closing on a house this friday, then i'm going to start putting this together :-)
[02:44] <SpeedEvil> :)
[02:45] <josepharmbruster> whoa, these prices don't seem bad at all :-p)
[02:45] <josepharmbruster> http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html
[02:45] <josepharmbruster> thinking i can make a grand old mess with this
[03:01] Action: SpeedEvil tries to remember the movie where they filled caves with it
[03:01] <josepharmbruster> i'm going to try to stick around here on IRC and will be coming in and out quite a bit for the next couple of weeks
[03:01] <josepharmbruster> thanks for all your insigh SpeedEvil !!
[03:02] <SpeedEvil> good luck
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[07:44] <jcoxon> morning all
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[08:18] <Futurity> Hi everyone
[08:20] <jcoxon> morning Futurity
[08:22] <edmoore_> morning all
[08:22] <edmoore_> yesterday was good
[08:23] <edmoore_> jcoxon: HAB bbq soon?
[08:23] <edmoore_> UKHAS garden party
[08:23] <edmoore_> ?
[08:24] <jcoxon> edmoore_, that would be a great idea
[08:25] <edmoore_> yesterday i kep thinking bbq would be the only thing to add
[08:25] <jcoxon> :-)
[08:26] <jcoxon> the first nice day weatherwise for a very long time
[08:26] <jcoxon> the JS has been rather relentless
[08:26] <edmoore_> yeah
[08:26] <edmoore_> shame the bbc are monkeys
[08:26] <edmoore_> sounds like a blessing in disguise that we didn't get them
[08:27] <jcoxon> hehe
[08:28] <rjharrison> Hi edmoore_ did you get your report done
[08:28] <rjharrison> I'm banned form the pc
[08:28] <edmoore_> really?
[08:28] <edmoore_> i just finished it
[08:28] <rjharrison> Just making breakfast so sneaked a few words
[08:29] <edmoore_> in bar having breakfast
[08:29] Action: jcoxon tells zeusbot to escort rjharrison from the premises
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[08:42] <rjharrison> lol
[08:51] <DanielRichman> So I trust xaben5/6 was recovered?
[08:51] <rjharrison> yep
[08:51] <DanielRichman> good, good
[09:05] <natrium42> oh nice, where are the pics? O:)
[09:10] Action: natrium42 Zzz
[09:10] <natrium42> hopefully pics tomorrow :P
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[09:57] <sbasuita> Yes, pics are urgently needed! ; O
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[11:50] <DanielRichman> What does #ha use to program its AVRs?
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[12:06] Nick change: kingj -> KingJ
[12:09] <trialex> I'm using an Arduino for prototyping, and a USBtinyISP to burn the final code
[12:10] <DanielRichman> Was looking at the USBtinyISP - it looks good
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[12:32] <AlexBreton> sbasuita, what's going down?
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[13:04] <DanielRichman> Just looking over the GSM deal again. IT looks like it will cost in the range of £70. In my opinion it's not worth it for our first flight; not to mention it's a massive pain to get set up properly. I'd rather skip GSM but sbasuita thinks it's essential. Anyone got any thoughts?
[13:04] <DanielRichman> Basically do we absolutely NEED it.
[13:04] <DanielRichman> how likely is it that we'll lose the payload without gsm vs. with gsm?
[13:05] <SpeedEvil> Can you output beeps easily from your device
[13:05] <SpeedEvil> I mean - if you added a leetle speaker
[13:05] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, I think so
[13:05] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, with some PWM goodness perhaps
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.19634
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> put that in payload
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> put a little buzzer on the controller
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> constantly beep out lat/lon in morse or whatever
[13:06] <DanielRichman> don't even need to do that
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> call it when it lands
[13:06] <DanielRichman> could put a phone in there
[13:06] <DanielRichman> can we get nokias to auto-answer?
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> dunno
[13:07] Action: DanielRichman goes and finds an old nokia
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> It's crap - technically speaking - and a hack - but if it works...
[13:08] <DanielRichman> £70 says its a better solution
[13:12] <jatkins> DanielRichman: have you tried using a phone and texting via AT commands?
[13:12] <DanielRichman> jatkins, yes, we got that working
[13:12] <DanielRichman> but the AT command UART is virtual
[13:12] <DanielRichman> only accessible over USB
[13:12] <jatkins> oh
[13:12] <DanielRichman> can't hook up the AVR to it :(
[13:12] <jatkins> I think it's been done before
[13:12] <jatkins> on the pegasus flights
[13:13] <jatkins> and nova
[13:13] <DanielRichman> on pegasus jcoxon used fbus and gnokii
[13:13] <DanielRichman> and he had embedded linux to help him iirc
[13:13] <jatkins> ah
[13:13] <jatkins> gumstix?
[13:13] <DanielRichman> aye
[13:13] <jatkins> ok
[13:14] <jatkins> what phone were you using?
[13:14] <DanielRichman> gumstix is cheating if you ask me ;)
[13:14] <jatkins> lol
[13:14] <jatkins> expensive I think
[13:14] <DanielRichman> ericcsson w800i (AT commands over USB - we tested this, even wrote a C implementation to generate AT, it all worked.)
[13:14] <jatkins> I've been trying to get at commands working w/ a nokia and dlr-3p cable
[13:14] <jatkins> cool
[13:14] <DanielRichman> you can give nokias AT commands?
[13:14] <jatkins> it works fine over hyperterminal
[13:14] <jatkins> yep
[13:14] <DanielRichman> which nokia?
[13:14] <jatkins> 6210
[13:15] <jatkins> the connector is db-9
[13:15] <jatkins> so I'm trying to convert the rs-232 signal to ttl
[13:15] <jatkins> I think I need one of these: http://www.tronisoft.com/4205.php
[13:15] <DanielRichman> heard of those MAX- chips?
[13:15] <jatkins> yep
[13:15] <jatkins> http://www.tronisoft.com/4205.php is a max3232
[13:15] <DanielRichman> yeah
[13:15] <DanielRichman> that's the one
[13:16] <jatkins> works at 3.3v (I'm using an arduino pro mini)
[13:16] <DanielRichman> If you have an arduino you can hijack the ftdi chip
[13:16] <jatkins> I saw you did that with the gps
[13:16] <DanielRichman> yeah
[13:16] <DanielRichman> just give the atmega a program to switch of the USART, then put it in the wrong rx/tx pins
[13:16] <jatkins> the pro mini already operates at 3.3v though
[13:16] <jatkins> so I don't think it matters
[13:16] <jatkins> you're using the usb board?
[13:17] <DanielRichman> yes
[13:17] <DanielRichman> duemilanove
[13:17] <jatkins> yeah
[13:17] <jatkins> i started out with a diecimila - the older version of the usb board
[13:17] <jatkins> but switched to a pro mini to save all the hassle of logic level conversion
[13:17] <jatkins> (if only i'd have used the ftdi chip! :)
[13:17] <DanielRichman> arduinos arn't bad but I think that in my next project I'll just use a plain and simple avr
[13:18] <jatkins> yeah
[13:18] <jatkins> just an oscillator, power supply, and max232
[13:18] <DanielRichman> yep
[13:18] <jatkins> plus the chip
[13:19] <jatkins> if that max3232 adapter board works I should be able to get at commands working
[13:19] <jatkins> otherwise it's only radio
[13:19] <DanielRichman> yeah
[13:19] <jatkins> or that sparkfun board
[13:19] <jatkins> the gm862 or whatever
[13:19] <DanielRichman> that's what we were looking at
[13:19] <DanielRichman> it's expensive though.
[13:19] <jatkins> yeah
[13:19] <jatkins> 2.8v ttl i think
[13:20] <jatkins> should be easy to work with
[13:20] <jatkins> though expensive
[13:20] <jatkins> there's one that comes builtin with a gps
[13:20] <jatkins> more expensive though (and unnecessary since you already have a gps)
[13:20] <DanielRichman> yes
[13:20] <DanielRichman> the gm862 looks amazingly easy to work with. Does gprs and has tcp/ip too.
[13:20] <jatkins> neat
[13:21] <jatkins> you can get the balloon to tweet ;)
[13:21] <DanielRichman> exactly!
[13:21] <jatkins> one of the astronauts on the shuttle mission was using twitter from space http://twitter.com/Astro_Mike
[13:21] <DanielRichman> I was browsing the manual. All you have to do is something like AT+GPRSCONNECT (IT's not called that) 3, 0 (tcp), 80, www.google.co.uk
[13:21] <DanielRichman> then send data like a pipe
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[13:21] <jatkins> cool
[13:22] <jatkins> I guess that's just normal network charge as if you used the gprs browser on your phone?
[13:22] <DanielRichman> yes
[13:22] <jatkins> so not too expensive
[13:23] <DanielRichman> dirt cheap tbh ;)
[13:23] <jatkins> lol
[13:23] <jatkins> I haven't used gprs on a phone
[13:23] <jatkins> mine has it but I haven't used it
[13:23] <jatkins> although considering how old it is it might be wap
[13:23] <jatkins> (although i hope not)
[13:24] <DanielRichman> WAP is very much oldschool
[13:24] <jatkins> ~10 years ago
[13:24] <jatkins> very stupid system..with its decks etc.
[13:25] <jatkins> the markup was like bastardized xml
[13:25] <DanielRichman> ouch
[13:25] <jatkins> lol
[13:25] <jatkins> ..well, it was xml 1.1
[13:25] <jatkins> http://www.w3schools.com/WAP/wml_examples.asp
[13:26] <jatkins> anyway I gtg
[13:26] <DanielRichman> wtf
[13:26] <DanielRichman> <go href="#card2"/>
[13:26] <jatkins> lol
[13:26] <DanielRichman> bye
[13:26] <jatkins> cya
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[13:59] <Laurenceb> DanielRichman: have you found a phone yet?
[14:00] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, found many phones, none yet do what we need
[14:00] <Laurenceb> t86i
[14:00] <Laurenceb> I've used that
[14:00] <Laurenceb> and another ericsson... cant remember now
[14:00] <Laurenceb> I've used three different ericssons, but one was really old - t28 or something
[14:01] <DanielRichman> hm
[14:05] <DanielRichman> Just trying to get a nokia to auto-pickup the phone
[14:05] <DanielRichman> if we can do that then we were considering sending morse or something ;)
[14:08] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, what do you use to program your AVRs?
[14:08] <rjharrison> Hi guys
[14:08] <rjharrison> Hows it going
[14:09] <DanielRichman> afternoon rjharrison
[14:09] <rjharrison> Any watch the launch yesterday
[14:09] <rjharrison> Any = ANyone
[14:09] <rjharrison> Hi DanielRichman
[14:09] <DanielRichman> I arrived home for the last 20mins and was watching the tracker
[14:09] <DanielRichman> you had an easy job recovering that one ;)
[14:09] <rjharrison> Coool
[14:09] <rjharrison> this was the first tiem we had the chase car working properly
[14:09] <DanielRichman> yeah
[14:10] <rjharrison> We'll have to try streaming video next time
[14:11] <DanielRichman> Yeah. Need to work out how much bandwidth that will take and how much 3g-modem that will cost. Might do that on our launch, if we can
[14:12] <Laurenceb> I've got a usb cable
[14:12] <Laurenceb> from a german company
[14:13] <Laurenceb> myavr or something gay
[14:14] <DanielRichman> hmm
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[14:18] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, that GSM Bug you linked - how did you find it?
[14:18] <DanielRichman> or have you tried one
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> I've got one, it works, though I haven't tried much with it
[14:19] <DanielRichman> you ordered from DealExtreme?
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> yes
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> too many times :<
[14:22] <rjharrison> When you get to launch I many be able to lend you a 3g stick
[14:22] <rjharrison> assuming you are in the uk DanielRichman
[14:23] <DanielRichman> rjharrison, thanks for the offer. I'm also persuading my dad that he "needs" one. Which wasn't hard actually, turns out he was already thinking about getting one
[14:23] <rjharrison> ok cool
[14:24] <rjharrison> they are great but only fit for when there is no ther connectivity
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> a gprs is fine too
[14:24] <rjharrison> it falls back to that
[14:24] <rjharrison> but no media b cast
[14:40] <Laurenceb> anything with the same pinout as the t68i has 3.3v serial @9600 baud
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[15:03] <Futurity> hi
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[16:16] <rjharrison> sbasuita: Slight problem with the configure script in cygwin
[16:16] <rjharrison> It dies for some reason
[16:17] <rjharrison> somthing about curl_init ... not found
[16:17] <DanielRichman> rjharrison, I think he's Afk
[16:17] <rjharrison> ok np
[16:17] <rjharrison> Thanjs
[16:18] <rjharrison> He did quite a good job on that the other day
[16:18] <DanielRichman> Yeah, I heard
[16:18] <DanielRichman> he's into packaging and all its friends more than me
[16:19] <DanielRichman> Hmm. So here goes our GSM Plan: Nokia lights up when it receives a call -> Detected by LDR, so microcontroller shorts two leads together - which is the button on the hands free headset which accepts a call, then we proceed to send either RTTY or Morse down that line via a buzzer near the phone's mic.
[16:20] <SpeedEvil> haha
[16:20] <SpeedEvil> but plausible
[16:20] <SpeedEvil> it doesn't have auto-answe then?
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> I know slow morse will work - say 1 char/second
[16:21] <DanielRichman> I can't find a way to make it auto answer
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> rtty or mfsk type modulations should also work, at about 10-20 symbols/second
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> getting more is _hideously_ complex
[16:21] <DanielRichman> I'd rather go for something that only has a couple of tones tbh
[16:22] <DanielRichman> morse is easier
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> yes
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> and quite fast enough
[16:22] <DanielRichman> yeah
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> even at a char a second, that's still a couple per min
[16:22] <DanielRichman> a couple?
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> couple of positions
[16:23] <DanielRichman> HAAAANGON a second
[16:23] <DanielRichman> I've just found an automatic answer item in the manual
[16:23] <DanielRichman> requires a handset...
[16:24] <DanielRichman> hmmm
[16:24] <DanielRichman> lets give it a go
[16:25] <Laurenceb> ffs buy a ericsson on ebay
[16:25] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, :)
[16:25] <Laurenceb> looks like kim jong ill stole my fertiliser
[16:39] <Laurenceb> or alternatively, theres a nuclear test in my pants, and everones invited
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[16:50] <Futurity> Hi
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[17:31] <SpeedEvil> I wonder about a void fraction in the wax for very small ones
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> actually - that's going to speed regression
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> oh - he wandered off
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[18:47] <sbasuita> rjharrison, an issue with the configure?
[18:54] <sbasuita> Man. I fail so bad... updated the dl-fldigi deb this morning and forgot to update the svn tree, ie. exactly the same ; S
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[19:00] <Futurity> hi
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[20:15] <rjharrison> Ping G8KHW
[20:16] <rjharrison> !last jcoxon
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[20:46] <G8KHW-2> edmoore: you know you were talking about Reynolds number yesterday - and how that affects ascent rate with altatude
[20:46] <edmoore> G8KHW-2: yep
[20:46] <G8KHW-2> what about drag of the payload
[20:47] <G8KHW-2> for large payloads you would expect AR to increase with altitude anyway
[20:47] <edmoore> yeah am having a think about that - generally about the numbers yesterday.
[20:48] <Hiena> Muaahahahahaha...At last, we have regulation for the amateur and the experimental planes!!! And guess what is the top limit?
[20:48] <G8KHW-2> I was just noticing that XABEN5/6 increased from about 2.1m/sec to 2.88m/sec
[20:48] <edmoore> I don't know off the top of my head - the balloon is just easy to model as a sphere with that classic kick in Re - http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/drag/drag-disk.jpg between 10^5 and 10^6
[20:48] <edmoore> 2.1 is slow, blimey
[20:49] <edmoore> what altitude was the speed increase over?
[20:49] <G8KHW-2> I got an average of 2.1 over the 1st 1/2 hour
[20:50] <G8KHW-2> 2.3 over the 1st hour
[20:50] <G8KHW-2> and 2.88 over the 3rd hour
[20:52] <edmoore> hrm...
[20:52] <G8KHW-2> 2.54 over the 2nd hour
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: ?
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[20:53] <G8KHW-2> so a noticable increase
[20:53] <Hiena> SpeedEvil, the top limit is the Mig-15! Max. accepted engine thrust 300kN for jets, and 5600kg for max dryweight.
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> hehe
[20:54] <edmoore> yes indeed, v noticable
[20:54] <edmoore> any chance i might be able to get some of your cleaned-up data?
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: that's nice and generous.
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: you're in hungary I assume?
[20:55] <Hiena> That means you could operate and maitain such planes at home, still need licences to fly it. But still good.
[20:55] <Hiena> Yup.
[20:55] <G8KHW-2> sure
[20:55] <G8KHW-2> I'll mail it in a mo
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: and pay for the fuel :)
[20:56] <edmoore> cool. I've got to toddle off for a bit but I'll have a play
[20:56] <edmoore> I mean it could just be that you had a much more draggy payload than usual and at a constant velocity and constant area, the drag dropped as the pressure dropped
[20:57] <edmoore> constantish velocity
[20:59] <Hiena> Also, had a regulations for the amateur/non-commercial ULs and experimental ULs. Basically, i have only supply the airworthyness documentation for the life support system, because the others is off regulation.
[21:00] Nick change: edmoore -> edmoore|away
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: what about orbital rockets?
[21:02] <Hiena> Sorry, only single piston or jet engine allowed, and had to fit for the category.
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[21:04] <RocketBoy> edmoore|away: sent
[21:05] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: ramjet? :)
[21:07] <Hiena> Also has a possibility for the invidual consideration for the experimental category, which means possible to defer from the category limits if the authorities accept it.
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> Pity jets are stupidly expensive.
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> I like the thought of a LOX/wax hybrid though
[21:08] <gordonjcp> loxwax sounds like an indy record label
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> Use that to get up to ramjet speed.
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> Amateur ramjet would be so cool.
[21:09] <Hiena> SpeedEvil, good question. It's just a brand new regulation, which is just a dozen page and signed today. So have to wait until the dust settles.
[21:12] <Hiena> Luckily i could pack enough names on my papers with Dr. and PhD., and stamps for the universities to pass.
[21:12] <rjharrison> Hi RocketBoy any joy with the media
[21:13] <rjharrison> Yo edmoore|away are you back?
[21:13] <rjharrison> Just had icarus run for over 78 hours on 4AA'a and still going dtrong
[21:14] <rjharrison> strong
[21:18] <RocketBoy> rjharrison - yep I got quite a bit of video - looks like the cameras packed up due to cold methinks
[21:18] <RocketBoy> the reason they wouldn't respond is that the batteries were completly run down
[21:19] <RocketBoy> some cameras worked until just before apogee - some right the way back to the ground
[21:19] <RocketBoy> one packed up 1.
[21:19] <RocketBoy> 1/2 way on the way back down
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[21:21] <RocketBoy> I suspect that they were running colder than last time because i) the flight was longer ii) I had increased the off time between shots
[21:23] <rjharrison> Wow cool
[21:23] <rjharrison> Literally
[21:24] <rjharrison> I have a few snaps for you too will burn to cd and post
[21:24] <RocketBoy> ta
[21:25] <rjharrison> RocketBoy I nearly fell asleep on the way home last night
[21:26] <RocketBoy> oh - thats worrying - its that getting up early that does it
[21:30] <rjharrison> RocketBoy: BTW I have fixed a bug in the windows client which meant you sent a bit more data than you needed to. Some blank lines
[21:30] <rjharrison> You should get the latest version before the next launch
[21:31] <rjharrison> Probably just before the next launch if you want the other fixes yet to be done :)
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[21:35] <G8KHW-3> rjharrison: there were also some problems with condensation on the "filters" fitted on the cameras
[22:01] <rjharrison> Oh dear. I'v not had that on my launches
[22:01] <rjharrison> Well it didn't last long
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[22:31] <DanielRichman> Is 50 baud rtty possible over GSM or not?
[22:32] <SpeedEvil> probably not
[22:32] <DanielRichman> Ok. I've exposed the solder contacts of the mic. Is it possible to remove the mic and then "emulate" it?
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[22:33] <SpeedEvil> sure, generally capacitively coupling a teeny signal into it'll work fine
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> GSM codec sucks for data
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> It's specifically designed to throw away all content that cannot be reproduced by the human voice
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> any that gets through is a side-effect
[22:34] <DanielRichman> hmm
[22:34] <DanielRichman> It's just that morse is a pain and fldigi refused to lower the rtty baud below 50
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> IIRC 50 baud closely approaches the frame-rate of GSM
[22:35] <DanielRichman> ah.
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> at which it tweaks the filters of a simulated human throat to make the noise that it hears
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> if you have pure tones below this rate of change, it basically copes
[22:35] <natrium42> DanielRichman, you can also solder to the buttons of a cellphone and send a SMS that way
[22:36] <natrium42> if you are really having trouble finding one with UART...
[22:36] <DanielRichman> natrium42, at the moment I've attached a headset so I can hack that without touching the phone itself, which is better
[22:38] <DanielRichman> Hmm. I could just send super slow rtty
[22:38] <DanielRichman> 5 baud?
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> should work fine, as I understand it
[22:38] <natrium42> i'd go with tones...
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> or morse
[22:38] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, morse is a greater pain
[22:39] <SpeedEvil> or one of the multi-tone modes - dominox or olivia or whaever
[22:40] <DanielRichman> How much faster are they vs. effort spent implementing?
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> for a given baud rate, you can move n times more data with n tones
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> so if you have 32 tones, you can move 5 bits per tone
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> per symbol
[22:40] <DanielRichman> Interesting
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> or 25 bits/sec at 5 baud
[22:41] <DanielRichman> and how hard is olivia/dominoex?
[22:41] <DanielRichman> to understand
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivia_MFSK
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> moderately
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[22:52] <DanielRichman> So electrically, what IS a microphone?
[22:52] <SpeedEvil> It's a little charged capacitoor
[22:53] <SpeedEvil> that pushes or pulls charge from the gate of a FET when it moves towards or away
[22:54] <DanielRichman> I see
[22:54] <DanielRichman> So say I had a GPIO generating a frequency
[22:55] <DanielRichman> Ideally using an opto isolator somewhere, how would I go about making the phone get that tone w/o a speaker/mic pair
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> electrically, you can just feed 1-10mV of signal through a capacitor to one pin, and it'll work
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> IMO - get a pair of earphones, pull off one speaker, glue to mic
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> job done
[22:56] <DanielRichman> heh
[22:56] <DanielRichman> could use a piezo
[22:56] <DanielRichman> got those in abundance
[22:57] <DanielRichman> And going back to your suggestion... feeding through a capacitor to one pin, and leaving the other pin untouched? The pcb to which the mic is currently attached has pins marked MIC+ and MIC-. So I guess I use MIC+?
[22:59] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, what phone are you using/
[23:00] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, nokia 3220
[23:00] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, ooh, I've got one of those
[23:00] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, I know
[23:00] <sbasuita> Super tough with the rubber case
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[23:02] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: call someone.
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: ttouch a finger to one pin
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: see if it hums
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> repeat with other
[23:02] <DanielRichman> hehe
[23:03] <DanielRichman> and finally... how would you reccomend I generate 1-10mv?
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> GPIO out divided by 1000
[23:03] <DanielRichman> potential dividor style?
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> capacitively coupled to the mic
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> yes
[23:03] <DanielRichman> right
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> but IMO a little speaker is easier
[23:03] <DanielRichman> yeah but this way there's less noise
[23:04] <sbasuita> Sending the tones over GSM sounds like a good plan with solder directly to the phone mic
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> a teeny speaker jammed against the mic can create plenty of noise
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> and it's easy to swap phones
[23:05] <sbasuita> But say it lands in a construction site....
[23:05] <DanielRichman> Oh yeah; how big would you recommend the capacitor be? (sorry ;))
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> 1uF should be plenty
[23:06] <DanielRichman> ok. Thanks :)
[23:11] <gordonjcp> depending on the phone, you may be able to use the connector on the bottom to inject audio
[23:11] <DanielRichman> gordonjcp, yeah, got a compatible headset and opened it up
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[23:20] <natrium42> whoa
[23:21] Action: SpeedEvil stops and whinneys.
[23:22] Laurenceb (n=laurence@dyres221-74.surrey.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[23:22] <Laurenceb> hello
[23:23] <DanielRichman> hello
[23:23] <sbasuita> hello
[23:23] <Laurenceb> RocketBoy: any photos from yesterday?
[23:23] <Laurenceb> hi guys
[23:23] <Laurenceb> got a phone yet?
[23:23] <sbasuita> dan is hacking his nokia 3220 mic
[23:23] <Laurenceb> ffs I'll do it myself
[23:23] Action: Laurenceb heads to ebay
[23:24] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, Laurenceb is adamant that we should just grab an old ericcsson from ebay
[23:24] <Laurenceb> :P
[23:25] <DanielRichman> to be fair, he's probably right ;)
[23:25] <sbasuita> yes
[23:25] <sbasuita> lets do that
[23:25] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, you find me an AT phone and I will willingly and wholeheartedly use it
[23:25] <DanielRichman> but tell me before I gut this nokia
[23:25] <sbasuita> don't kill the nokia yet
[23:25] <sbasuita> we'll find a phone with a uart
[23:25] <DanielRichman> you have one day /menacingface
[23:25] <sbasuita> er no
[23:26] <DanielRichman> but yeah, that would make things easier
[23:26] <DanielRichman> good luck phonehunting
[23:26] <SpeedEvil> you don't need to kill it. Use a little speaker, and duct-tape over it.
[23:26] <SpeedEvil> Works well, insensitive to outside noise. works well
[23:26] <DanielRichman> I'll *try* not to kill it
[23:27] <DanielRichman> I haven't started yet
[23:27] <DanielRichman> so still got the chance to choose another option
[23:27] <DanielRichman> go look on ebay sbasuita
[23:27] RocketBoy (n=Steve@ left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[23:27] <sbasuita> not now
[23:27] <DanielRichman> OK; but don't forget :)
[23:28] <Laurenceb> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sony-Ericsson-T68i_W0QQitemZ330332310647QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_MobilePhones_MobilePhones?hash=item4ce9570c77&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A3|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50
[23:28] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, you've used that model before?
[23:28] <Laurenceb> yes
[23:28] <DanielRichman> does it have an exposed AT uart that accepts 3.3v logic and eats AT PDU code for breakfast?
[23:28] <Laurenceb> has 3.3v 9600 baud serial on the base
[23:28] <Laurenceb> yes
[23:28] <DanielRichman> How did you attach to that uart?
[23:29] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, many thanks
[23:29] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, buy it
[23:29] <sbasuita> now
[23:29] <sbasuita> >_>
[23:29] <Laurenceb> I used a datacable
[23:29] <Laurenceb> but you could try soldering if you want to save money
[23:29] <DanielRichman> "Locked to Orange" "You will get the phone only. No Charger"
[23:29] <sbasuita> pah, small print
[23:29] <DanielRichman> always read the fine pri... well, it was in size 7 BIG print
[23:30] Action: DanielRichman tries the search box
[23:30] <Laurenceb> hmm sucks
[23:30] <DanielRichman> there's plenty of £3 chargers
[23:30] <DanielRichman> so that's good
[23:31] <DanielRichman> OOOh; aparantly the t68i does bluetooth
[23:31] <Laurenceb> hmm I cant remember but there are a few others with the same pinout
[23:31] <DanielRichman> and gprs
[23:31] <DanielRichman> perhaps we could get it twittering over gprs
[23:31] <DanielRichman> (or perhaps not).
[23:31] <Laurenceb> it has a browser... or sorts
[23:31] <Laurenceb> - low res lcd
[23:32] <sbasuita> Locked to orange...
[23:32] <DanielRichman> what about this one
[23:32] <DanielRichman> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SONY-ERICSSON-T68I-MOBILE-PHONE-WORKING-FREE-2-LOOK_W0QQitemZ250431624067QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_MobilePhones_MobilePhones?hash=item3a4ee35383&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1690|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50
[23:32] <sbasuita> Street vendors rip your wallet to shreds for unlocking
[23:33] <Laurenceb> IIRC I used the W100i or something
[23:34] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, that link looks good
[23:34] <DanielRichman> Can't remember if I have a paypal account or not
[23:34] <Laurenceb> basically I wne to a page with a history of ericsson phones and looked on pinouts.ru for similar stuff to the t68i
[23:35] <Laurenceb> there are a few with the same pinout, but I've only flown the t68i and a really old one... t28 or something
[23:35] <Laurenceb> I have a payload with I think as w100i in it, but its not with me atm
[23:36] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, you going to bid on that phone?
[23:36] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, not now.
[23:36] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, in the moorning
[23:36] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, how much?
[23:36] <DanielRichman> don't know
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> bid at the last minute
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> you using firefox?
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> I recommend the 'joybidder' extension
[23:38] <DanielRichman> Ofc I'm using firefox ;)
[23:38] <DanielRichman> joybidder. Interesting...
[23:39] <sbasuita> I'm still trying to get on the homepage
[23:39] <sbasuita> My internet is seriously broken
[23:39] <DanielRichman> aha
[23:41] <sbasuita> A communication error occurred: "Operation timed out"
[23:41] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, did you get a USB data cable then hack it ?
[23:41] <sbasuita> that's from the server
[23:41] <sbasuita> weird
[23:41] <Laurenceb> I got an rs232 one
[23:41] <Laurenceb> but you only really need the connector
[23:42] <DanielRichman> hmm; ok
[23:42] <DanielRichman> thanks for all your help
[23:42] <DanielRichman> I'll be back tomorrow
[23:43] DanielRichman (n=DanielRi@ left irc: "Leaving"
[23:52] Action: Laurenceb is a bit confused by hybrid motors
[23:52] <Laurenceb> it appears that you have a constant regression rate
[23:53] <Laurenceb> i.e. rate at which the flue surface burns
[23:53] <Laurenceb> so... as the burn progresses you need more oxidiser... so you increase chamber pressure?
[23:57] <Laurenceb> something like that I guess... I'm writing a rocket sim atm
[00:00] --- Tue May 26 2009