highaltitude.log.20090521

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[02:15] <SpeedEvil> http://www.smbc-comics.com/#comic :)
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[07:52] <jcoxon> morning all
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[08:47] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[08:48] <edmoore> morning cpn
[08:48] <jcoxon> how are the projects?
[08:49] <edmoore> have got wavelets working for energy compaction on the image processing front
[08:49] <edmoore> that's a result
[08:49] <jcoxon> :-)
[08:50] <edmoore> not so much progress on the logic simulator. Am making sure my syntax is 'Extended BackusNaur Form' LL1 compliant
[08:50] <edmoore> I don't really know what it means either. I think Compscis are into this kind of stuff
[08:50] <jcoxon> haha
[08:50] <jcoxon> well when you have a free 5 minutes could i borrow you and your mac
[08:51] <jcoxon> would like to test out that the DL client works
[08:51] <edmoore> yes - although today isn't to great for this either - am in lond from 4pm today, and in the dept up till then
[08:51] <edmoore> but sor sure, i promise to make it a priority
[08:51] <edmoore> i've been dragging on giving you some time
[08:51] <jcoxon> i mean in the next few days really
[08:52] <jcoxon> its no problem really, its hard to test on my own laptop as i have all the libs set up etc
[08:52] <jcoxon> and i think you'll be quite impressed
[08:52] <jcoxon> its looking pretty cool
[08:52] <edmoore> ok awesome
[08:52] <edmoore> i have may server set up now
[08:52] <jcoxon> i've now got it to be a dmg with a single OS X app
[08:52] <edmoore> my*
[08:53] <edmoore> 1GB/day limit whilst it's in my room, but such is life
[08:53] <jcoxon> oh well
[08:53] <edmoore> I wonder if there's some way of setting up an automated build server for win mac and *nix versons?
[08:53] <jcoxon> not sure it would be worth it :-)
[08:54] <jcoxon> we have working copies on mac and *nix
[08:54] <jcoxon> however windows is typically proving troublesome - an issue with compiling fldigi rather then our changes
[08:55] <edmoore> ok
[08:55] <edmoore> such is life
[08:56] <jcoxon> i think the plan is to have the google code svn and then do 'releases'
[08:56] <edmoore> ok cool
[08:56] <edmoore> can we have that for ukhas in general?
[08:56] <jcoxon> with recommendations of sticking with the releases as we pretty much always break out svn trun
[08:56] <jcoxon> yes its a very good idea
[08:57] <edmoore> instead of me having clinet1.py, clinet2.py, clinet3.py.... clinet7.py all in one folder :)
[08:57] <jcoxon> you should see my Dev folder haha
[08:57] <edmoore> client*
[08:58] <edmoore> jcoxon: setting environment variables in osx
[08:58] <edmoore> how does one?
[08:58] <jcoxon> like in linux
[08:58] <edmoore> i'm trying to install a python library that reads grib2 files but it's causing me headaches
[08:58] <edmoore> trying to get it to find all its depedencies
[08:58] <jcoxon> as you are using bash
[08:59] <edmoore> do you plonk it into .bashrc?
[08:59] <edmoore> with some kind of export?
[09:02] <jcoxon> well you could use export for a one off to install the lib
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[16:21] <rjharrison> !last jcoxon
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[16:30] <rjharrison> hi nacholopez
[16:31] <nacholopez> hi all
[16:31] <rjharrison> sbasuita: How is your project going?
[16:31] <sbasuita> rjharrison, no progress
[16:31] <sbasuita> had exams all this week
[16:31] <rjharrison> GCSE?
[16:31] <sbasuita> no, just internals
[16:32] <sbasuita> next week we have off though, so lots of stuff will happen then
[16:32] <rjharrison> Cool, go ok?
[16:32] <rjharrison> Cool
[16:32] <rjharrison> I think you'll get something back this time
[16:32] <rjharrison> Are the staff still involved?
[16:32] <sbasuita> Not directly
[16:33] <sbasuita> Just funding
[16:33] <rjharrison> hehe
[16:33] <rjharrison> Thats what you want
[16:33] <sbasuita> yep ;D
[16:35] <sbasuita> Reminds me: need to go pester head of science club to see if he's bothered to order some stuff
[16:35] <sbasuita> He's useles
[16:36] <sbasuita> Lost the sheet of stuff last time
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[16:54] <rjharrison> Sounds like a teacher
[16:54] <rjharrison> Though this is a cool project for the school to do
[17:31] <rjharrison> sbasuita: what does heabot do over zeusbot?
[17:31] <rjharrison> herabot
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[18:14] <jcoxon> afternoon all
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[18:52] <stilldavid> just got my radiometrix - these things are small!
[18:56] <jcoxon> :-)
[18:56] <jcoxon> which module?
[18:56] <stilldavid> 2x tx2h-433
[18:56] <stilldavid> 25mw
[18:56] <jcoxon> oooo cool
[18:57] <stilldavid> now I just have to wait for the real radio before I can start playing
[18:58] <jcoxon> hehe
[18:58] <stilldavid> I have a used yaesu ft-7800r on its way as well
[18:59] <jcoxon> oh wow
[18:59] <jcoxon> radiometrix modules are very good, definitely our favourite in the UK
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[18:59] <stilldavid> been wanting a mobile to play with anyway (my first radio) - so it was a good excuse
[19:00] <jcoxon> so when the launch :-p
[19:00] <jcoxon> whens*
[19:00] <stilldavid> well, flight computer is almost all set up, still battling 1-wire on the gumstix
[19:00] <stilldavid> I'm hoping about a month or so
[19:01] <jcoxon> cool cool
[19:01] <jcoxon> so how are you interfacing the flight computer with the radio?
[19:01] <stilldavid> gpio on the gumstix is my thought
[19:02] <stilldavid> I found some code for an AVR on the wiki a while ago for rtty
[19:02] <stilldavid> think I can mangle it into something that works
[19:02] <jcoxon> what daughterboard are you using?
[19:03] <stilldavid> I have an overo earth and tobi
[19:03] <stilldavid> http://www.flickr.com/photos/stilldavid/3527503458/
[19:03] <jcoxon> well i might have a solution
[19:04] <jcoxon> you could attach it to the audio out on the gumstix
[19:04] <jcoxon> i've got some code which then generate wav files of rtty, packet or sstv data
[19:04] <SpeedEvil> accoupled?
[19:04] <jcoxon> which you play, through the radio and recive on SSB
[19:05] <stilldavid> I'm learning this as I go along, but that makes sense
[19:05] <jcoxon> it was DC coupled
[19:06] <jcoxon> in regards to gpios you'll struggle to get much else then morse without going into the kernel
[19:07] <stilldavid> well, if you are willing to share your code, I'd love to give that a shot :)
[19:08] <jcoxon> yes, i didn't write it so let me run it passed the author but i'm sure he'll be fine
[19:08] <stilldavid> great, thank you!
[19:08] <jcoxon> it might need some tweaking as you are using a new board then i did
[19:09] <stilldavid> yes, I've also got a Verdex leftover from an older project
[19:09] <stilldavid> so I'm making the buildroot -> OE switch as it is
[19:11] <jcoxon> the joy,
[19:11] <jcoxon> OE is not bad once you get used to it
[19:12] <jcoxon> i miss working on a gumstix
[19:12] <jcoxon> just can't afford them
[19:12] <stilldavid> yeah, they are pricey. I am really banking on getting this one back at the end of the project.
[19:12] <jcoxon> hehe
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[19:15] <jcoxon> stilldavid, you've reminded me that i need to get some more radiometrix modules
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[19:16] <jcoxon> oops
[19:16] <stilldavid> jcoxon: you didn't miss much.
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[19:17] <stilldavid> I got my radiometrix through the US distributor, Lemos Int. They were hesitant to sell them without the eval board
[19:17] <jcoxon> am on a my mac so apple-tab is a little too close to apple-q
[19:17] <stilldavid> kind of a wink and a nudge and a "don't call radiometrix for support"
[19:17] <jcoxon> stilldavid, thats interesting, you really don't need eval boards - thats whats nice about them
[19:18] <stilldavid> Mr. Lemos all but convinced me otherwise, I told him not to worry, I've got #ha if anything goes awry
[19:18] <jcoxon> hehe, we are pretty clued up in regards to radiometrix
[19:19] <stilldavid> alright, lunch time. if you get around to that code, my email is me@stilldavid dot com
[19:19] <jcoxon> will do
[19:19] <jcoxon> might be tomorrow
[19:20] <stilldavid> no rush, I don't even have the 7800 yet
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[20:32] <Laurenceb> hello
[20:33] <DanielRichman> hi Laurenceb
[20:44] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: you could reach orbit with a 3 stage balloon launched nitrous hybrid
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> yes
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> sounds plausible
[20:46] <Laurenceb> if you use a CF tube 60mm diameter then you can reach the mass fraction
[20:47] <Laurenceb> it needs about 80% fuel
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> I was planning on using _much_ lower mass fractions, 4 stages, groundlaunched biprop
[20:47] <Laurenceb> hmm
[20:47] <Laurenceb> I was looking at the rattworks designs
[20:48] <Laurenceb> CF tube is very light, you could use that in the first 2 stages
[20:48] <SpeedEvil> Fiberglass
[20:48] <Laurenceb> about 2m long for first stage, then 0.35m for the second
[20:49] <Laurenceb> 3rd stage is a bit more tricky
[20:49] <Laurenceb> as it has to be shorter...
[20:49] <Laurenceb> I worked out you could do it with total mass of 7Kg
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> I wasn't caring about that - as I was effectively throwing away the first stage to get to 30Km at mach few.
[20:50] <Laurenceb> yeah
[20:51] <Laurenceb> but it all gets rather expensive - you need guidance as well
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> launch, accellerate to mach 1, cruise tilll 10-15Km
[20:51] <Laurenceb> one simple option is ullage thrusters on the upper stages
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> burn the rest of the first stage, coast for a bit, stagge
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> (to minimise Q while staging)
[20:52] <Laurenceb> if you go for 4 stage you could do it with 50Kg total mass
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> Basic design was 1:4 payload-stage mass.
[20:53] <Laurenceb> thats pretty high
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> so - 1Kg orbit payload - 5Kg total last stage weight, 25Kg previous stage, 125, 625
[20:54] <Laurenceb> yeah you need biprop for that
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> Basic premise is to not bother too much about having a 10-15% or more structural fraction
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> fiberglass, not carbon fibre
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> steel, not aluminium-lithium composite, ...
[20:55] <Laurenceb> hmm you you only need 250ISP for what I came up with
[20:55] <Laurenceb> biprop needs more complex engine design
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> yes, it does.
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> I have some test electroforming ones.
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> electroformed copper
[20:56] <rcaron> SpeedEvil: there is no way you want to coast in early flight. The kinetic energy lost to gravity is prohibitive
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> rcaron: you mean at mach 1?
[20:56] <rcaron> at any velocity
[20:56] <Laurenceb> carbon fibre isnt that expensive
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> rcaron: the aero losses for small rockets are much worse
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[20:57] <Laurenceb> if you can recover the first one or two stages
[20:57] <Laurenceb> not launched from 30Km on a balloon
[20:57] <rcaron> if the aero losses are much worse than your thrust profile isn't optimized
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> rcaron: attempting to carry on accellerating - for rockets under a few tons of weight - from the ground wastes morre
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> rcaron: the optimal thrust profile I found for small rockets was basically the above - you can't exceed mach 1 low-down, or the drag eats you.
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> If you're balloon launching, or over a few tons, then this changes
[20:59] <rcaron> then don't exceed mach 1. lower your thrust so you stay below transsonic
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> By the size of the shuttle, aero losses are largely unimportant other than structural and heating.
[20:59] <rcaron> but restarts of a stage and coasts...
[20:59] <rcaron> nobody does that atmo
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> nobody does low budget ground launches of sub-ton multistage rockets
[21:00] <rcaron> not entirely accurate, and lots of people have looked at the problem
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> the coast was a few seconds after first stage burnout to lower max Q
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> Err
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> Q at staging.
[21:01] <rcaron> oh, well that's a little better
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> Basically, as exploing in a ball of flame is lots worse for your delta-v than a few seconds of gravity losses.
[21:02] <sbasuita> So, somebody launching into orbit?
[21:02] <Laurenceb> I was thinking the first two stages having 60mm CF tube, ~1mm wall thickness, then Alu bulkheads epoxied in, one front bulkhead, an injector bulkhead, then HDPE fuel, then a graphite engine
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: just very hypothetical ramblings ATM.
[21:02] <Laurenceb> sbasuita: considering how to cheaply launch small payloads
[21:02] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, how cheap is cheap?
[21:02] <Laurenceb> a few k£
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> I've got a 'few sheets of A4' design that I think is plausible for launching 1Kg for under about 5K
[21:03] <rcaron> when you can get 3kg to orbit let me know; i'm building a cubesat
[21:03] <Laurenceb> thats a bit heavy
[21:03] <DanielRichman> What are you planning to launch?
[21:03] <Laurenceb> > 100 gram sat
[21:03] <Laurenceb> erm <100
[21:03] <DanielRichman> No but
[21:03] <DanielRichman> what would be on the payload?
[21:04] <DanielRichman> what would it do?
[21:04] <Laurenceb> nanosat maybe
[21:04] <SpeedEvil> rcaron: the fun part of the design is each stage is identical as far as possible to teh one before - so in principle, you stick a 3 ton stage on the bottom, and you have a 5kg payload, not a 1kg.
[21:04] <Laurenceb> with a CF tube design... you have issues with the final stage
[21:05] <Laurenceb> as it gets very short and the bulkheads eat the mass
[21:05] <SpeedEvil> also you have stability issues
[21:05] Action: SpeedEvil passes Laurenceb a sabot
[21:05] <Laurenceb> ideally you want a CF tube for the solid, then a sphere
[21:05] <Laurenceb> spaceship one style
[21:06] <Laurenceb> of course.... you could have a single stage with a LGG in the propellant tank
[21:08] <Laurenceb> theres a indian 4 stage solid rocket that injects water into the nozzel
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> I had a silly design
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> two actuators
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> optionally one
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> spin a graphite vane around the edge of the engine
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> one actuator plunges the vane into the exhaust
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> the more silly variant has no actuator, but simply a constantly dipped vane
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> rotating when you want no overall thrust
[21:11] <Laurenceb> lol
[21:11] <Laurenceb> I like the water injection idea
[21:11] <Laurenceb> but youd need some lightweight pipes
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> water or propellant injection is a very old idea
[21:12] <Laurenceb> maybe have a water filled sack in the propellant tank
[21:12] <SpeedEvil> I don't know if it's up again
[21:12] <SpeedEvil> but a very cool site is the NACA archive
[21:12] <Laurenceb> then if you inject into the nozzel the presure will be lower
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> NACA went to NASA when they got the apollo mission
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> but prior to that they had a _lot_ of good published stuff
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> everything from shapes of wooden props, to drag of a cylinder flying side-on at mach 4.
[21:14] <Laurenceb> need to make a injection valve unit
[21:14] <Laurenceb> for a few grams...
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> If you pick the fuels right, you can use car/van injectors
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> though they are not that light
[21:15] <Laurenceb> yeah, maybe for the first few stages
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> that was one of the nice things about teh moving vane
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> it can be very light
[21:16] <Laurenceb> well you can get sub one gram servos
[21:16] <Laurenceb> so it can be done
[21:18] Action: SpeedEvil just wants a nice bit of 3" Rh/Ir bar to machine engines from.
[21:18] <SpeedEvil> 2 or 3m should do fine.
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[21:46] <Laurenceb> http://www.precisionmicrodrives.com/data/images/600/212-409_front.jpg
[21:46] <Laurenceb> 9 grams
[21:47] <Laurenceb> a bit of milled brass on the top and you could use the output shaft as a valve body
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[22:00] <Laurenceb> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/default.stm <- seriously wtf
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: or a little cam, and a bit of silicone tubing
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[22:02] <Laurenceb> not at 1000psi
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[22:02] <sbasuita> Mmm... BBC tech news is far too watered down for my liking
[22:03] <Laurenceb> "worf tshirt goes viral" and "4chan raids youtube" seriously bbc
[22:05] <sbasuita> I was under the impression youtube was constantly under seige by 4chan
[22:05] <sbasuita> *shrug*
[22:06] <sbasuita> "4Chan is an organised group"
[22:07] <Laurenceb> lmao
[22:16] <natrium42> Laurenceb, http://www.crooksdesign.co.uk/stock-photography-misuse.html
[22:16] <natrium42> lol @ stock photos
[22:23] <stilldavid> is this #reddit or #highaltitude? :P
[22:27] <Laurenceb> http://pastebin.com/d5a4884af
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> stilldavid: it's 4chan!
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> tits!
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:28] <stilldavid> || gtfo, right?
[22:31] <sbasuita> rofl @ stock photos
[22:34] <SpeedEvil> Imagine here if I had bothered to get up, and take a picture of some chicken stock in the kitchen.
[23:12] <jcoxon> http://rucool.marine.rutgers.edu/atlantic/
[23:16] <jcoxon> very cool
[23:17] <Laurenceb> nice
[23:18] <Laurenceb> over half the team is female
[23:18] <Laurenceb> impossible
[23:18] <Laurenceb> :P
[23:20] Nick change: KingJ -> kingj
[23:21] <Laurenceb> I'm guessing they must use a magnetomoter for steering
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[23:49] <SpeedEvil> The extracted magnetocortex of a bottlenose dolphin.
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> oops
[23:57] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: looking good
[23:58] <SpeedEvil> yeah - well - finally getting over evil flu
[23:59] <SpeedEvil> trying to get on top of garden, with weedproof membrane down over all of the bits that will otherwise explode with weeds
[00:00] --- Fri May 22 2009