highaltitude.log.20090420

[00:00] <Dan-K2VOL> Nice data
[00:00] <Dan-K2VOL> They have a pretty big envelope, it must take over $500us just in helium
[00:00] <Laurenceb> hmm interesting
[00:01] <Laurenceb> JAXA were using huge things
[00:01] <shellevil> hydrogen!
[00:01] <shellevil> Or maybe not
[00:01] <shellevil> hydrogen and ZP sound like fun
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[00:02] <shellevil> It would add an enthusiastic cutdown optioon
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[00:03] <Laurenceb> a new meaning to pyro cutdown
[00:03] <Laurenceb> say didnt you have some ceramic resistors?
[00:04] <shellevil> yes - they are packed somewhere thouh
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[00:05] <shellevil> stupid touchpad.
[00:05] <Laurenceb> any idea where to get them?
[00:05] Action: shellevil wants a trackpoint.
[00:05] <shellevil> I got mine at rapidonline - they were end of line thouh
[00:06] <Laurenceb> grr its losing packets
[00:06] <Laurenceb> I see
[00:06] <Laurenceb> think it just reached sunset
[00:06] <Laurenceb> but it seems to be losing altitude
[00:06] <Laurenceb> I bet the shape and type of plastic used effects things
[00:07] <Laurenceb> I'm guessing a small nonspherical envelope like they probably used means it loses bouyancy more quickly at sunset
[00:07] <Laurenceb> that seems to be whats happening
[00:10] <Laurenceb> shellevil: any chance you could spare a few resistors?
[00:19] <Laurenceb> cya
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[00:29] <Dan-K2VOL> Away
[00:33] <Dan-K2VOL> Anyone around?
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[01:52] <ng0x> hello hello ?
[01:52] <ng0x> Mark Caviezel here
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[01:53] <ng0x> DAN!
[01:53] <Dan-K2VOL> Hey
[01:53] <ng0x> fancy 'seeing you here
[01:53] <Dan-K2VOL> Haha, nice to see ya Mark
[01:53] <ng0x> a quick calc shows 90 fpm sink rate
[01:54] <ng0x> 9.5 hours till splash down assuming (probably incorrectly) that the sink rate will be constant.
[01:54] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, any recent HF?
[01:55] <Dan-K2VOL> I have no rig up unfortunately these days, need to fix that
[01:55] <ng0x> there's a good chance they'll pop up with some morning warming.... or global warming - a factor known to buoy up transatlantic balloons!
[01:55] <ng0x> I am living in a hotel in DC.... no radio gear here
[01:55] <Dan-K2VOL> haha
[01:55] <Dan-K2VOL> do you know if they ever got the ballast to drop?
[01:56] <ng0x> don't know. it's pretty hard for me to follow this flight...... I haven't seen hardware details, not sure they're open to sharing them.
[01:57] <ng0x> any other SNOXers on here
[01:57] <ng0x> ?
[01:57] <Dan-K2VOL> not that I know of
[01:57] <ng0x> this flight reminds me of SNOX 1 !
[01:57] <Dan-K2VOL> I've been hanging out here with Alexei and the brits helping out from a distance when possible on their efforts
[01:58] <Dan-K2VOL> haha yes
[01:58] <ng0x> yes, the UK/Canadian team has three TA balloons
[01:58] <Dan-K2VOL> I put a nice map of SNOX 1 and SNOX 4 up on the wikipedia entry this week
[01:58] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
[01:59] <ng0x> ah I see the wiki article, looks great!
[01:59] <Dan-K2VOL> tnx, I only added a few details, someone from the UK did a lot of it
[02:01] <ng0x> I see Alexei is in the room here, not sure I recognize anyone else.
[02:02] <ng0x> Dan are you still in the Knoxville area ?
[02:03] <Dan-K2VOL> no, Louisville, KY.
[02:03] <Dan-K2VOL> I've been trying to get the knoxville guys to flip on a receiver though
[02:04] <ng0x> sink rate is now over 100 fpm
[02:05] <shellevil> jcoxon's gone to bed I assume?
[02:05] <ng0x> ah it's a wee hour of the night over there.
[02:06] <Dan-K2VOL> ah yeah, though when there's a good flight, who really gets any sleep
[02:07] <ng0x> good point.
[02:07] <ng0x> I'll never forget my 'first' long distance flight
[02:07] <ng0x> ANSR 33 or 34
[02:07] <Dan-K2VOL> I had mike coffey kj4z rig up a telemetry thresholds alarm system to text message us if things changed overnight, but I couldn't sleep when I knew people were working hard trying to find it on the radio
[02:07] <Dan-K2VOL> oh, was that the one with the antifreeze bottle?
[02:08] <ng0x> yes, that was a 920, exactly the same as the SNOX 1 balloon, I think telem was on 20 m, blacked out all night, exactly as predicted.
[02:08] <Dan-K2VOL> nice, that was the first one I ever saw too, early in our UTARC program
[02:09] <Dan-K2VOL> saw via the internet, that is
[02:09] <ng0x> and they ran pure antifreeze, which has a higher freeze point than water-antifreeze mix. :|
[02:09] <shellevil> eutectics FTW.
[02:09] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, that acted like molases when I put it in the dry ice chamber
[02:10] <ng0x> I suggested ethanol, but Mike rejected it on the basis of concern for ground contamination/surface flamability
[02:10] <ng0x> KD7LMO sk RIP !
[02:10] <Dan-K2VOL> ahh yes
[02:11] <Dan-K2VOL> I am going to try to make it to GPSL this year, how about you mark?
[02:11] <shellevil> antifreeze is less contaminating than ethanol?
[02:11] <ng0x> yeah, and I'm really confident that their fill technique mixed helium and air when they filled it, took about 10k feet off the float altitude.
[02:11] <Dan-K2VOL> carl was always very concerned about flammability
[02:12] <Dan-K2VOL> mark, what do you htink about filling like nasa does theirs with the clutch and top fill tubes?
[02:12] <ng0x> hey you'd have to ask Michael KD7LMO about his rationale for de-selecting ethanol as a liquid ballast, but he's unfortunately no longer with us
[02:13] <Dan-K2VOL> alcohol is a pretty natural substance
[02:13] Action: shellevil stabs drunk-drivers.
[02:13] <Dan-K2VOL> as far as spilling over the landscape is concerned
[02:14] <ng0x> yes, I have a concern about flamability, too, but it's a minor concern, particularly for a winter flight. Take the 1000+ Japanese Fugo balloons of WWII, they had incinderary devices but didn't cause any fire storms as hoped.
[02:14] <Dan-K2VOL> SNOX II was a little scary as the 3 liters of methanol hung up on the power line after launch
[02:14] <natrium> hi ng0x & Dan-K2VOL
[02:14] <Dan-K2VOL> hi Alexei
[02:15] <ng0x> Regarding top-fills, I've done many missions with them, but consider it more appropriate for a larger balloon and heavier payload.
[02:15] <ng0x> Hello ALEXEI !
[02:16] <natrium> hi mark, nice to see you here :)
[02:17] <natrium> i have been trying to hear the pbh-9 flight, but no luck
[02:17] <natrium> my antenna isn't perfect, just a long wire
[02:17] <Dan-K2VOL> I have a friend in NC listening
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[02:21] <ng0x> oh
[02:21] <ng0x> last packet indicates a big decrease in sink rate
[02:21] <natrium> ng0x, can you hear it on your rig?
[02:21] <Dan-K2VOL> temp change perhaps?
[02:22] <ng0x> 37 fpm...... there's hope she'll fly all night.
[02:22] <ng0x> no rig here alexei, I am at a hotel in DC.
[02:22] <natrium> aah, ok
[02:22] <ng0x> and don't let the extra class call sign fool you, I'm a bit of a retard when it comes to HF operation.
[02:23] <ng0x> I have an FT-817 but have only used it twice in probably 5 years
[02:25] <natrium> i don't even have a license yet
[02:25] <natrium> should stop slacking off and get one
[02:26] <natrium> right now preparing a latex flight with iridium phone
[02:26] <ng0x> geting a Tech license is really easy in the USA,
[02:26] <Dan-K2VOL> haha, I can't tell you the last time I made a qso on anything. I really like the usefulness of radio as a tool to transfer data
[02:26] <ng0x> hey, how much is the Iridium phone costing you ? I'm impressed you guys are using that hardware.
[02:26] <natrium> ng0x, $650 or so for 500 minutes
[02:26] <Dan-K2VOL> @#(%*&@#
[02:27] <natrium> phone itself is $1200 or so
[02:27] <Dan-K2VOL> ah, um, have you guys ever lost a balloon before?
[02:27] <natrium> i haven't, but i only launched 3 times so far
[02:27] <ng0x> ok, so no surprises with the air time or the hardware cost.
[02:28] <natrium> Dan-K2VOL, basically the idea is to make the payload survive in water
[02:28] <natrium> so it's going to be still fun to track it as it floats
[02:28] <Dan-K2VOL> ah, and float ad-infinitum solar powered?
[02:28] <Dan-K2VOL> true
[02:28] <natrium> yes, although we calculated that solar power isn't really worth it
[02:28] <Dan-K2VOL> what if it lands in a 150ft tall oak tree across the street
[02:29] <Dan-K2VOL> :-P
[02:29] <Dan-K2VOL> ours has done that
[02:29] <ng0x> Dan, that's easy...... get the sling shot thingy to snag it and haul it down.
[02:29] <natrium> sure, it's possible to lose it
[02:29] <natrium> my last launch landed on a pretty tall tree
[02:30] <Dan-K2VOL> well, I have some nice electronics in three trees if you all are interested :-)
[02:30] <icez> on the middle of the highway :]
[02:30] <natrium> hehe, so they do grow on trees?
[02:30] <natrium> :P
[02:30] <ng0x> icez: when and where
[02:30] <ng0x> ?
[02:30] <Dan-K2VOL> two of ours landed so far into the smokey mountains that you have to hike most of the day to get to them
[02:30] <icez> nah, just said it like that, I've never launched a balloon :P
[02:31] <Dan-K2VOL> huh, pbh3 got slashdotted
[02:31] <natrium> oh, awesome
[02:32] <natrium> they really need a webpage
[02:32] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah really
[02:32] <natrium> there are bits of info here and there, but that's it
[02:32] <Dan-K2VOL> well, it works in their slashdot favor
[02:32] <ng0x> Dan, explain
[02:32] <natrium> apparently they use a 30m rockmite (0.75W) on the payload
[02:33] <Dan-K2VOL> we had to tell digg to remove a story about SNOX IV because our listeners wouldn't be able to access the tracking data
[02:33] <Dan-K2VOL> the cornell group doesn't have to worry about paying for, or keeping alive, their bandwidth
[02:33] <Dan-K2VOL> twitter will survive a slashdot story fine
[02:34] <Dan-K2VOL> as far as information dissemination, I too, wish they had a website
[02:34] <natrium> no idea which balloon they used though
[02:34] <natrium> ng0x, is it one of yours?
[02:34] <Dan-K2VOL> or how much weight it's hauling
[02:34] <shellevil> there are 'free' ways to comunicate that'll survive slashdot
[02:34] <shellevil> usenet/google-groups/yahoo groups
[02:35] Action: natrium has a dedicated server
[02:35] <ng0x> no, it's not one of my balloons.
[02:35] <ng0x> I predict it is a Raven 9470. 9470 cubic feet, it's a standard size.
[02:36] <ng0x> Norm Chomey (sp?) said that Raven designed it for a mission requirement he had, then made it into a standard offering...
[02:36] <Dan-K2VOL> our tracking page killed all the servers we could throw at it due to the complex AJAX graphic gauges
[02:37] <ng0x> Dan, Alexei, my Strato-X project has some real great news this week- I've just been informed that we've received a grant from the Wolf Aviation Fund for construction of the kevlar capsule.
[02:37] <ng0x> :)
[02:38] <Dan-K2VOL> heck yeah, nice!
[02:38] Action: icez steals natrium's dedicated server
[02:39] <natrium> ng0x, is it a project to launch people in the stratosphere?
[02:39] <Dan-K2VOL> going where aerostar fears to tread!
[02:39] <ng0x> Alexei:
[02:40] <ng0x> yeah, the whole reason I am into ballooning is for my Strato-X project. Slogan is "two people, two days, at 100,000 feet"
[02:40] <ng0x> I had a flashy website up, but it's down for right now.
[02:41] <natrium> sounds awesome
[02:41] <ng0x> I have a self-built quarter million cubic foot balloon which will be our next big milestone when we fly that with 100 pounds to 100k feet.
[02:41] <natrium> ng0x, i found this ---> http://www.redyns.com/Projects/StratoX/index.html
[02:42] <natrium> hydrogen or helium?
[02:43] <ng0x> Alexei, yeah, that's Gary Snyder's website, he scanned the brochure which had all the same info as the website, so if you read that, you'll know a good amount about what we have planned
[02:43] <ng0x> Strato-X will use helium.
[02:44] <Dan-K2VOL> nice.
[02:44] <Dan-K2VOL> two days, that's a long time
[02:44] <ng0x> the brochure shows the original Strato-X pre-prototype 'hotdog' capsule.....
[02:44] <Dan-K2VOL> sounds like the explorer days
[02:45] <ng0x> two days is the eventual goal, initial flights will be day only
[02:46] <Dan-K2VOL> hehe, you could make it a sport mark, see if they can keep altitude through sunset
[02:47] <ng0x> certainly. The exact amount of ballast needed is not clearly known, first flights will be one pilot, normal ballast plus 2nd pilot's weight in ballast..
[02:48] <ng0x> From a physical sciences standpoint, it should be easy to calculate based on the daytime superheat, but the exact amount of that daytime superheat is hard to project.
[02:52] <Dan-K2VOL> Mark, what do you think about using mylar emergency blankets to form a cover for a ZP envelope to reduce the daytime IR input?
[02:56] <Dan-K2VOL> any updates recently?
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[02:57] <ng0x> darn I got booted
[02:57] <Dan-K2VOL> Mark, what do you think about using mylar emergency blankets to form a cover for a ZP envelope to reduce the daytime IR input?
[02:58] <ng0x> Dan: I've been intending to look into that....... that is what the Cameron produced Rozier balloons used, but i am not sure that it is fundamentally sound
[02:59] <ng0x> as the absorbtivity/emissivity ratio for aluminum will drive a very significant day time heat up.
[03:00] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm
[03:00] <Dan-K2VOL> I see
[03:01] <ng0x> not sure who else is monitoring this list, but privately I'll confide that I am really pretty unimpressed with the engineering on Cameron balloons
[03:01] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm not familiar with them
[03:01] <ng0x> ....and they are the largest balloon manufacturer in the world
[03:02] <Dan-K2VOL> googling now
[03:02] <ng0x> they have a USA factory in Michigan, and one in UK
[03:02] <Dan-K2VOL> hm
[03:03] <ng0x> if you care to go beyond what Google may do for you, pick up and read a copy of Don Cameron's 1978 vintage 'Zanussi' book.
[03:03] <Dan-K2VOL> though with the aluminum you might get a gentler temperature change rate
[03:04] <Dan-K2VOL> I may, I got a copy of one you recommended, the Magnificent Failure, on the to-read list
[03:04] <ng0x> it describes his trans Atlantic balloon flight attempt of 1976? The gas cell ruptured while approaching the pressure ceiling...... then read the Global Hilton crash report of 1999..... exact same failure over 20 years later.
[03:05] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm yeah, sounds like not enough testing
[03:05] <ng0x> regarding aluminum..... "Aluminum foil 0.15 0.05 3.00 Aluminum foil gets very hot because of this high ratio."
[03:06] <ng0x> first thing I googled, from solarmirror.com
[03:06] <Dan-K2VOL> ahh interesting
[03:06] <ng0x> absorbsion is 0.15, emissivity is 0.05
[03:07] <Dan-K2VOL> ah so we need some gold
[03:08] <ng0x> http://www.solarmirror.com/fom/fom-serve/cache/43.html
[03:08] <ng0x> this list is poorly documented, but it's one of the best treaments of this topic on the web.
[03:10] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm PE black plastic numbers are interestingly close
[03:10] <ng0x> yes, and if you check my youtube video offerings, you'll see
[03:10] <ng0x> my black plastic solar balloon flying away.
[03:10] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah I remember that, wasn't it on a golf course or something?
[03:11] <Dan-K2VOL> that's odd, does that mean that black PE is better than aluminum foil?
[03:11] <ng0x> I know a balloon pilot in Seattle who made a manned solar balloon from black tafeta, it's a 105,000 cubic foot balloon but - aw shucks- he discovered that the amount of heat up is far less for his balloon than black PE
[03:11] <Dan-K2VOL> for this application?
[03:12] <Dan-K2VOL> interesting
[03:12] <ng0x> yes, we launched the solar balloon from the 1st fairway.
[03:12] <Dan-K2VOL> this is a very good table
[03:12] <ng0x> for a good long endurance balloon membrane, I'd want very low absorbtivity and very low emissivity.
[03:12] <Dan-K2VOL> so for insulating solar heat, the aS/E ratio needs to be low?
[03:12] <ng0x> reducing the daytime super heat and the night time super-chill.
[03:13] <ng0x> insolating?
[03:13] <Dan-K2VOL> haha
[03:13] <ng0x> you want as much heat as possible....
[03:13] <shellevil> ng0x: foil!
[03:13] <Dan-K2VOL> well, preventing heat entry
[03:13] <ng0x> I worked on a NASA funded program on this exact topic years ago (for a Mars entry balloon). i didn't work the thermal side
[03:13] <Dan-K2VOL> either way, you really want as little heat change as possible
[03:14] <ng0x> but as i recall nickel oxide coated mylar was the magic material we needed.
[03:14] <Dan-K2VOL> ah yes, I'll just go to the walmart and pick some up
[03:14] <ng0x> factoid: black PE balloons melt at 63,000 feet.
[03:15] <Dan-K2VOL> interesting, do you think they would if you had internal circulation fans?
[03:16] <ng0x> its happened on my first tetroon flight, also Robert Rochte's first flight. He switched to milky HDPE (slightly higher melting point), I switched to more payload to keep the float altitude below 60k feet.
[03:16] <ng0x> yes, they'd probably melt even with internal fans.
[03:19] <ng0x> a high ratio of absorb/emit will drive a very high equilibrium temp in a vaccuum
[03:19] <ng0x> ....where there is no convective heat loss to deal with..
[03:20] <ng0x> down here on Earth surface, a high ratio will also drive a temp rise, but the higher total absorbtivity will drive more heat through the system.
[03:20] <ng0x> Greg reports nothing heard in Knoxville.
[03:21] <Dan-K2VOL> Brian Harrison reported the same from Denver, NC
[03:23] <ng0x> yeah, no new reports for 50 minutes now.
[03:25] <ng0x> Dan, so I am not convinced that the Cameron aluminized mylar wrapped balloons enabled the round the world flights, they may have succeeded in spite of the aluminum coating.
[03:25] <ng0x> I have heard that Steve Fosset had enough fuel when he landed (6th attempt, first successful one) to go around AGAIN !
[03:26] <Dan-K2VOL> that's interesting, why do you suppose that was
[03:26] <ng0x> The best conventional gas balloons use what looks like a titanium dioxide based white.
[03:26] <ng0x> Dan - please phrase the question fully.
[03:27] <shellevil> depends which way round the mular is
[03:27] <shellevil> mylar
[03:27] <shellevil> one way it's got excellent IR emissivity, the other near 0
[03:27] <Dan-K2VOL> Why do you think he had so much fuel left?
[03:28] <Dan-K2VOL> (sorry, am doing research on the foils at the same time)
[03:28] <shellevil> it's hard to predict exact use
[03:28] <shellevil> going under is bad
[03:29] <ng0x> Dan - I think that they went hog-wild in designing the system.
[03:31] <ng0x> And it could mean that Camerons didn't have a good grip on fuel consumption, OR Steve fosset requested a ridiculous extra margin, or Cameron up-sold him a larger balloon system than he really needed.
[03:32] <Dan-K2VOL> well, here's a document on solar cookers, but it lists a ton of sources for reflective films
[03:32] <Dan-K2VOL> http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/research/solarthermal/solar_cooker/documents/reflectivematerialsreport.pdf
[03:35] <Dan-K2VOL> well going to have to get some work done before bed, you guys have a good night, hope we hear from PBH9 again
[03:35] <ng0x> note that a film can be highly reflective (low absorbtivity), but if it's emissivity is less, it will still drive a significant temperature rise inside the balloon.
[03:36] <ng0x> Good nigth Dan, nice to see you here.
[03:36] <Dan-K2VOL> you too mark, goodnight all
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[03:45] <ng0x> test?
[03:46] <natrium> everybody seems to be sleeping
[03:47] <natrium> :S
[05:19] <ng0x> Alexei ?
[05:19] <ng0x> Mark here..... can't sleep...... jonesing for a telemetery update....
[05:20] <natrium> hey
[05:20] <natrium> i turned off my radio
[05:20] <natrium> do you think i have a chance to hear it in the night?
[05:21] <ng0x> not sure.
[05:21] <natrium> my antenna setup is not very good
[05:21] <ng0x> the last linearized sink rate was 50 fpm, which gives a possibility of
[05:21] <natrium> it's a 100 ft wire about 5 ft above ground
[05:21] <ng0x> slow decent through the night
[05:22] <ng0x> and warm up and ascent in the morning, about 5 hours from now.
[05:22] <ng0x> maybe 6
[05:22] <ng0x> HF is weird, during the SNOX 4 flight
[05:22] <natrium> do you know whether they planned to travel across the atlantic?
[05:23] <ng0x> there were times where one packet was recieved by everyone on both sides of the atlantic, then the next one would be received by just one guy.
[05:23] <ng0x> don't know much at all about these PBH guys.
[05:25] <ng0x> i REALLY love the new feature on aprs.fi that allows you to see the digi that I-gated the packet.
[05:25] <natrium> saturday i heard somebody in croatia
[05:25] <natrium> on 40 meters
[05:25] <ng0x> (just drag your cursor along the flight path)
[05:25] <natrium> yah, the aprs.fi interface is excellent
[05:26] <natrium> i should steal their ideas for our tracker :)
[05:26] <ng0x> The EOSS guys have a story about a balloon payload on the ground, tracking team less than a mile away couldn't hear it, but a ham over 1000 miles away could.
[05:26] <ng0x> emulation is the highest form of flattery
[05:27] <natrium> yah, the ham book i am reading mentions a silent zone close to the tx
[05:27] <natrium> since the waves travel over it
[05:27] <natrium> bouncing from the ionosphere
[05:28] <natrium> HF is weird
[05:28] <ng0x> yes, propagation is a favorite topic of mine.
[05:28] <natrium> iridium is so much more reliable :P
[05:28] <natrium> but HF is fun
[05:28] <ng0x> the write-ups lead me to believe that a large amount of observation and research has gone into the body of knowledge available now.
[05:29] <ng0x> yes, Iridium is a completely different animal.
[05:29] <ng0x> have you looked into Orbcomm ?
[05:29] <natrium> no
[05:29] <ng0x> also global coverage, but low data rate text only...... I love their technology but refuse to sign the non-disclosure agreement they require
[05:30] <ng0x> just to get a pricing plan!
[05:30] <natrium> i don't like when companies hide prices either
[05:30] <natrium> why not put it out there?
[05:30] <ng0x> EXACTLY
[05:31] <ng0x> Well, if you have any interest in Orbcomm (I'll expect you to fully hack the system in less than a week) I have two satellite communicators i'll give you.
[05:31] <natrium> :D
[05:31] <ng0x> very nicely built, weatherproof aluminum case, but heavy ~2 pounds.
[05:32] <natrium> so you have some kind of plan?
[05:32] <ng0x> maybe 3.
[05:32] <natrium> data plan, that is?
[05:32] <ng0x> no. like I said, I refuse to sign their NDA, so I have no idea what the data plans are like.
[05:33] <ng0x> orbcomm has a few dozen very small orbiting satellites, 138 MHz uplink, 150 MHz downlink, or something like that.... it's right above and below the ham 2 m band
[05:34] <natrium> can't really do much if the units are not registered in their system
[05:34] <ng0x> and a 19" whip antenna on a car roof top is a decent antenna for orbcomm.
[05:34] <ng0x> right. I was hoping you'd pick up the mantle on this one.
[05:35] <ng0x> but I'm fairly sure their MO is that they estimate the value of the communications, then custom size their price plan to fit the maximum you'll likely be able to afford.
[05:38] <natrium> sounds good
[05:38] <natrium> i am up for it after i finish with iridium
[05:38] <ng0x> the twitter feed has an additional pos rep than the APRS .fi
[05:38] <ng0x> # T+25 hours, 46267 ftabout 2 hours ago from web
[05:39] <ng0x> if they stay with a slow descent, they'll make pretty good time.
[05:39] <natrium> the must have a big envelope to stay up that long without ballast drops
[05:39] <ng0x> http://adds.aviationweather.gov/winds/
[05:40] <ng0x> 100+ nauts
[05:40] <ng0x> I think it's only 10,000 cubic feet.
[05:40] <ng0x> I suspect that it's a Raven 9470
[05:41] <ng0x> so, yeah, it's much bigger than the TAs you have
[05:41] <natrium> :)
[05:41] <ng0x> but 10,000 cubic feet is still considered a really small envelope in the sci ballooning area
[05:42] <ng0x> I think the threshold for 'small' to large is at 1 M cubic feet
[05:42] <ng0x> I have flown a Raven 141k ft3 balloon, labelled as 0.141 M by raven
[05:43] <natrium> cool
[05:43] <natrium> helium must have been expensive
[05:44] <ng0x> not really. the Raven 141 is only 26 pounds. Two K-bottles to buoy the balloon, one more for the payload, so that's only 3
[05:45] <ng0x> that's only 0.5% full at launch....
[05:46] <ng0x> in rough numbers, 1% full at launch gives you 100,000 feet float altitude, 0.5% gives about 120k feet MSL.
[05:49] <natrium> aah, i see
[05:49] <ng0x> it's only rated for 100 pounds of payload, so about 6 bottles is the MAX you'd ever want to put in.
[05:51] <ng0x> Alexei: how big is the whole UKAS effort ?
[05:51] <ng0x> in persons?
[05:52] <natrium> http://spacenear.us/wiki/doku.php#team
[05:53] <ng0x> gotcha.
[05:53] <natrium> :)
[05:53] <ng0x> james is in UK, others are in Toronto (?)
[05:54] <natrium> only me and alex kennberg are in canada
[05:54] <natrium> the others are in UK
[05:55] <natrium> however my brothers help with the launches
[05:55] <natrium> so we got enough people to do a launch here
[05:55] <ng0x> okay. thanks. helps me have a better idea.
[05:57] <natrium> sure
[05:57] <ng0x> oh tell me about the ballast sensor.
[05:57] <ng0x> what is it? how is it supposed to work?
[05:57] <natrium> laurence was working on a capacitive ballast sensor
[05:58] <natrium> as far as i understand it's a strip that you glue along the container onto the outside wall
[05:58] <ng0x> SWEET!
[05:58] <ng0x> if you can get that working, I'll be a huge fan!
[05:58] <natrium> yes, it gives very high precision
[05:58] <natrium> :)
[05:59] <natrium> james is going to test it on a latex launch
[05:59] <ng0x> I ran a project with a liquid oxygen and cryogenic propylene rocket engine, we tried to implement a cap sensor, but couldn't get it to work
[05:59] <natrium> laurence also had a few problems, but i think he mostly solved them
[05:59] <natrium> we still need to run a full test, of course
[06:00] <natrium> we can fall back to infrared distance sensor if necessary
[06:00] <ng0x> yes, one course you may consider is testing on the bench top til it's all working fine, then move it into a freezer for slightly cold testing
[06:01] <ng0x> and a really cold test with dry ice will flight qualify it for night time temps
[06:02] <natrium> that's a good suggestion
[06:02] <natrium> btw, here is james' ballast mission writeup --> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/missions:ballasthalo
[06:03] <ng0x> I still think it's odd that you can't easily get dry ice in the UK.
[06:03] <natrium> well, hallam said that it should be no problem to get it
[06:03] <natrium> so it seems sorted
[06:04] <ng0x> oh, good.
[06:04] <ng0x> ok tell me about these X-valves?
[06:05] <ng0x> and note that a small hole is likely too small.
[06:05] <natrium> i should have a link somewhere, one sec
[06:05] <natrium> james should be back on irc in 2 hours or so
[06:07] <natrium> hmm, here is a pic of the test --> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/3347859896/sizes/l/
[06:07] <natrium> the valve is that blue thing
[06:07] <natrium> oh, here we go ---> http://spacenear.us/wiki/doku.php?id=ballast:valve
[06:07] <natrium> i am a little worried that they are too small
[06:08] <ng0x> I am A LOT worried it's far too small to be a helium vent.
[06:09] <natrium> oh
[06:09] <ng0x> Jonathan Trappe used 1/2" valves on his first cluster balloon flight and the very small amount of venting could not keep up with mid morning increasing solar heating
[06:09] <natrium> that's for ballast
[06:09] <ng0x> they may work ok for ballast.
[06:09] <natrium> not sure what he plans to do for helium venting
[06:09] <natrium> i think it may be a pin hole similar to bill brown's test
[06:10] <ng0x> and be sure to note the bill's latex 'floaters' were launched late afternoon with a very modest amount of free lift, all intended to get the balloon to altitude right as the sun went down.
[06:11] <natrium> kk
[06:15] <natrium> mark, i am going to go to bed, sorry
[06:15] <natrium> yesterday i stayed up till 5 am
[06:15] <natrium> usually i stay up to 3am :)
[06:15] <natrium> g'nite
[06:15] <ng0x> no problem.
[06:15] <ng0x> good nite.
[06:15] <natrium> thanks for the infos!
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[06:51] <jcoxon> morning
[06:51] <jcoxon> natrium, is pbh still flying?
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[06:59] <jcoxon> ping ng0x
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[07:43] <jcoxon> morning edmoore
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[10:25] <Laurenceb> hi
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[11:40] <Laurenceb> pbh3 appears to have disapeared
[11:45] <Laurenceb> if the descent rate was roughtly constant, it shouldnt have hit the sea
[11:45] <Laurenceb> and should be rising now
[11:46] <Laurenceb> however its probably beyond the range of aprs
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[12:01] <Laurenceb> oh wow it survived
[12:02] <edmoore> mega-quick update from someone?
[12:02] <edmoore> am in exam stress-mode but would love a 2-sentance latest
[12:02] <Laurenceb> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?utm_campaign=en_GB&utm_medium=ha&utm_source=en_GB-ha-emea-gb-bk-gm&utm_term=road
[12:03] <Laurenceb> how long till exams?
[12:03] <edmoore> had one this morning
[12:03] <edmoore> another at 2.3
[12:03] <edmoore> 2pm*
[12:03] <Laurenceb> wow good luck
[12:03] <Laurenceb> thats very early
[12:03] <edmoore> another tomorow at 9
[12:03] <Laurenceb> when do you finish?
[12:03] <edmoore> yes
[12:03] <edmoore> 6th may
[12:03] <edmoore> then 5 weeks of joy when everyone else is stressing as theirs are about to start
[12:04] <edmoore> this balloon is taking its time
[12:04] <Laurenceb> at least that'll be awsome
[12:05] <Laurenceb> 2 exams in one day sucks
[12:06] <edmoore> correct
[12:09] <Laurenceb> good luck
[12:10] <Laurenceb> bye
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[12:41] <Jcoxon> Hey guys
[12:41] <Jcoxon> Its still flying!
[12:41] <Jcoxon> That is impressive
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[13:09] <ng0x> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz?
[13:09] <ng0x> caviezel is up here now.... just for a minute
[13:09] <ng0x> I see she's still flying, cool.
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[13:56] <jcoxon> hey all
[14:02] <jcoxon> guess no one is around
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[14:32] <jcoxon> have updated the map with the new positions:
[14:32] <jcoxon> http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/
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[15:13] <shellevil> oh
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[17:40] <DanielRichman> Coding our flight computer right now... was thinking, if the GPS loses a fix, and we have no new gps data, we'd like it to send a string over the radio just telling us that it's still there, and perhaps the temperature custom data etc. However, there won't be any gps location in the string. I suggested prefixing the comms with ## instead of $$ so that the distributed tracker ignores it. yes or no?
[17:41] <shellevil> An invalid fix field may be of use
[17:42] <DanielRichman> shellevil, what do you mean?
[17:42] <shellevil> for example - if you're fading in and out - you really really in some circumstances want any position informtion at all.
[17:42] <shellevil> even if it may be stale
[17:42] <DanielRichman> Oh I see. Good idea
[17:43] <shellevil> the invalid fix string might be the only one recieved forex
[17:43] <shellevil> or it might lose lock on the ground upside down
[17:43] <DanielRichman> yes
[17:45] <shellevil> or broadcast the last fix - with the original timestamp maybe
[17:46] <edmoore> what's the latest chapses?
[17:47] <shellevil> I've been tidying up in the garden. Hawthorne is sharp.
[17:47] <edmoore> DanielRichman: we often include the 'age' of the fix in seconds
[17:47] <edmoore> in our stream
[17:47] <DanielRichman> edmoore, ok
[17:48] <shellevil> Also - it's very important not to cross the streams.
[17:49] <DanielRichman> :)
[17:52] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, in the parsing routine, if lat/lon/alt is missing, just regard it as a parsing error and return. That way, all the other interrupts will still read the "last good" buffer, and we'll be fine.
[17:55] <edmoore> sbasuita: here's when it gets annoying
[17:55] <edmoore> the payload lands
[17:55] <edmoore> you don't here it because you are 20 miles away
[17:56] <edmoore> whilst you are driving there, the gps looses its fix because the payload rolls over or something
[17:56] <edmoore> no, rewind
[17:56] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, way ahead of you ;)
[17:56] <edmoore> i misread you as doing exactly the opposite of what you said
[17:56] Action: sbasuita tries to imagine that reading...
[17:57] <edmoore> line order dyslexia
[17:58] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, as part of void gps_next_field(): if (blahblah ... && gps_substate != gps_storing_maxlen) { /* We didn't fill the field properly. Discard it */ gps_state = gps_state_null; return; }
[17:59] <sbasuita> Hmm... jcoxon's transceiver arrived today but I can't really test it :( Anybody got anything I could listen for on the 70cm band?
[17:59] <edmoore> what type - the 790?
[17:59] <shellevil> their should be a 'scan' button I think
[18:00] <edmoore> anyone: what's the latest on this transtalantic baloon?
[18:00] <sbasuita> edmoore, shellevil, yaesu ft-790r
[18:00] <sbasuita> edmoore, twitter suggests they're still up
[18:00] Action: sbasuita can't see a scan button
[18:00] <edmoore> sbasuita: where are you based?
[18:00] <sbasuita> edmoore, reading, uk
[18:00] <shellevil> sbasuita: a manual is a good thing.
[18:00] <edmoore> sbasuita / shellevil there isn't one on the 790
[18:00] <shellevil> sbasuita: download
[18:01] <shellevil> edmoore: fair enough
[18:01] <sbasuita> shellevil, already got it ;)
[18:01] <shellevil> :)
[18:02] <edmoore> sbasuita: http://www.tvrg.org.uk/repeaters/gb3bn/gb3bn.htm
[18:03] <edmoore> http://www.ukrepeater.net/repeaters/gb3bn.htm
[18:03] <edmoore> tune in and have a listen
[18:03] <sbasuita> edmoore, bracknell - how did you know >_>
[18:03] <sbasuita> edmoore, what am i listening for?
[18:03] <edmoore> it's the only 70cm repeater in that area
[18:03] <edmoore> the other got closed down because of abusive monkeys
[18:04] <sbasuita> : )
[18:04] <sbasuita> : (
[18:04] <edmoore> sbasuita: it's basically a repeater for local hams
[18:04] <sbasuita> rofl smiley fail
[18:04] <sbasuita> edmoore, right
[18:04] <edmoore> so they 'dial' in - by sending a tone and transmitting to it as a pre-determined frequency
[18:04] <edmoore> and it universally rebroadcasts with much more power at the frequency listed on the web page
[18:04] <sbasuita> cool
[18:05] <edmoore> there's normally some activity there so you are likely to hear something - even if just the repeater braodcasting its callsign in morse
[18:05] <sbasuita> edmoore, what mode do I want?
[18:05] <sbasuita> FM?
[18:06] <edmoore> they almost always are
[18:06] <edmoore> so that dinky hand-helds can use them
[18:07] <edmoore> ssb is for hardcore HF people
[18:07] <sbasuita> erm
[18:07] <sbasuita> I have
[18:07] <sbasuita> FM -
[18:07] <sbasuita> FM SIMP
[18:07] <sbasuita> and FM +
[18:08] <edmoore> don't know what the manual says
[18:08] <edmoore> try fm simple
[18:12] <edmoore> if in doubt
[18:12] <sbasuita> Hmm..
[18:12] Action: sbasuita is failing to dial in 433 MHz
[18:12] <sbasuita> ; P
[18:12] <shellevil> you will ususally hear someething on any FM setting
[18:12] <sbasuita> Yes, noise
[18:12] <shellevil> if it's distorted or very quiet, try other FM modes
[18:12] <shellevil> I mean if there is a signal
[18:12] <sbasuita> right
[18:12] <edmoore> careful you don't transmit
[18:12] <edmoore> or... get a license!
[18:12] <edmoore> if we had some disposable payloads i'd send up a balloon for you to liste to
[18:12] Action: sbasuita has figured out the display
[18:12] <sbasuita> just noise..
[18:12] <edmoore> yes the display is a bit unhelpful at first
[18:13] <edmoore> just keep it on in the bg
[18:13] <DanielRichman> Do people actually come knocking on your door if you start broadcasting without a license?
[18:13] <shellevil> DanielRichman: rarely
[18:13] <edmoore> you'll get all the repeater yokels talking about mowing and patios and coal sheds and the-wife
[18:14] <edmoore> and catheters
[18:14] <shellevil> DanielRichman: unless you cause interference, and get someone motivated to report you
[18:14] <edmoore> someone here got a strongly worded email within a few hours of a recent flight
[18:14] <edmoore> but that was from... higher sources
[18:14] <shellevil> God sends emails?
[18:14] <sbasuita> Ok, my display reads "3.300.0"
[18:14] <DanielRichman> Oh? Did they break any rules?
[18:14] <sbasuita> that's correct right?
[18:15] <sbasuita> or
[18:15] <sbasuita> maybe
[18:15] <sbasuita> that's wrong
[18:15] <sbasuita> =/
[18:15] <sbasuita> should just be 3.000.0
[18:15] <edmoore> i think you have to pre-set the 10 unit
[18:15] <edmoore> yeah
[18:15] <edmoore> i don't remember really, i now just use my icom ic-7000
[18:15] Nick change: edmoore -> looks
[18:16] Nick change: looks -> edmoore
[18:16] Action: edmoore is smug about his icom
[18:16] <sbasuita> Well, i'm sure the white noise will help me get back focused on my coursework ;)
[18:16] <edmoore> what coursework?
[18:16] <sbasuita> english
[18:16] <sbasuita> poetry
[18:16] <sbasuita> riveting stuff
[18:17] <edmoore> gcse or a-level or somefing different altogether?
[18:17] <sbasuita> gcse
[18:17] Action: shellevil ponders metalworking poetry.
[18:17] <edmoore> i wish i'd been into ballooning when doing GCSEs
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[18:17] <DanielRichman> the amount of free stuff Alex managed to blag is unbelievable
[18:17] <sbasuita> yep
[18:18] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, do your english quickly so that you can help me write some 1wire fun
[18:19] <edmoore> what poems are you courseworking on?
[18:19] <sbasuita> Ulysses by Alfred Tennyson
[18:19] <sbasuita> and
[18:19] <sbasuita> My Last Duchess - Robert Browning
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[18:32] <edmoore> sbasuita: it gets really dull really quickly, panic not
[18:32] <edmoore> wait till you get on HF
[18:32] <edmoore> then people from india and talking to people in greenland above your head
[18:32] <sbasuita> 0_o
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[18:32] <sbasuita> jcoxon, hey!
[18:32] <jcoxon> hey
[18:32] <sbasuita> Been playing with your radio that arrived today :)
[18:32] <jcoxon> oh great
[18:32] <sbasuita> much fun; many thanks!
[18:32] <jcoxon> remember not to transmit
[18:32] <edmoore> when steve tested a transatlantic radio at the local rocketry club, they heard it in germany
[18:32] <edmoore> it's far more exciting than that repeater i linked you
[18:32] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[18:32] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[18:32] <jcoxon> so where is this ZP balloon
[18:32] <jcoxon> im' amazed its still flying
[18:32] <edmoore> you tell me
[18:32] <edmoore> i'm revising hard
[18:32] <jcoxon> hehe, go okay today?
[18:32] <edmoore> well it was pretty fair above the thermally unstable reagion last
[18:32] <edmoore> so it probably will stay up a while
[18:33] <edmoore> just not really going anywhere
[18:33] <edmoore> jcoxon: yeah
[18:33] <edmoore> first 2 were ok
[18:33] <edmoore> only 8 to go
[18:34] <jcoxon> :-)
[18:39] <edmoore> food time
[18:39] <edmoore> back presently
[18:39] <edmoore> sbasuita/ DanielRichman : get licenses
[18:39] <edmoore> tis god for your soul
[18:39] <edmoore> good*
[18:39] <jcoxon> hehe
[18:39] <edmoore> we'll have to figure out a way of smuggling you guys into a pub when you launch. didn't realise you were gcse
[18:39] <sbasuita> edmoore, how do you think we've been plugging all our free stuff?
[18:39] <sbasuita> "Poor kids with no jobs"
[18:39] <sbasuita> ; )
[18:39] <edmoore> milk it whilst you can
[18:39] <edmoore> whilst we're at the height of blagging powers currently, it's all going to go away very soon
[18:39] <edmoore> suddenly i'll be a professional
[18:39] <edmoore> right, bbl
[18:39] <edmoore> bbiab, even
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[18:56] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, we're blatantly going to get licenses now so I can rickroll you over yet another medium
[18:59] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, hmm.
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[19:03] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: we'll do it here
[19:03] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: how long does it transmit for, when it fires up
[19:03] <jcoxon> about a minute
[19:03] <jcoxon> its a silly system
[19:03] <gordonjcp> okay
[19:03] <gordonjcp> long enough though
[19:03] <gordonjcp> what does it send?
[19:03] <jcoxon> CW 15wpm
[19:04] <gordonjcp> just heard a wee burst of something digital
[19:04] <jcoxon> e.g. 13312 N34440 W47472 39096 360 96
[19:05] <gordonjcp> okay
[19:05] <gordonjcp> let me know when it starts again
[19:06] <gordonjcp> is it timed off the gps?
[19:06] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:06] <jcoxon> and its back on time
[19:07] <gordonjcp> let me know when it starts again
[19:08] <gordonjcp> one minute from now?
[19:09] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:10] <DanielRichman> For our radio rtty balloon to ground, is it ok to abbreviate the name to $$A1 instead of $$alien1?
[19:11] <DanielRichman> (brb)
[19:12] <gordonjcp> didn't hear anything
[19:12] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: last position?
[19:13] <jcoxon> ummm mid atlantic
[19:13] <jcoxon> http://twitter.com/pbh3
[19:15] <gordonjcp> wow
[19:15] <gordonjcp> it's a *loooooong* way south
[19:16] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:16] <gordonjcp> where are you expecting it to come down?
[19:16] <jcoxon> who knows
[19:17] <jcoxon> i didn't expect it to survive the night
[19:17] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, I already asked - it's fine
[19:18] <jcoxon> it won't survive tonight
[19:18] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, if you want, its no problem
[19:18] <sbasuita> What's this talk of 'MC' on twitter?
[19:19] <jcoxon> mission control
[19:20] <sbasuita> Oh right. My little bro is having a fun time listening to some guy driving home from work
[19:26] Action: shellevil stabs BTs rate adaption algorithm.
[19:26] <jcoxon> hehe
[19:26] <jcoxon> sbasuita, good vhf stuff in your area?
[19:26] <jcoxon> its quiet where i am which is odd considering its central london!
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[19:35] <Xenion> moin moin @ all :-)
[19:36] <edmoore_> jcoxon: what have i missed?
[19:36] <jcoxon> they broke the record
[19:36] <jcoxon> still flying
[19:36] <jcoxon> getting hard to decode
[19:36] <edmoore_> where are they?
[19:36] <jcoxon> as software doesn't beat bill brown's ear
[19:36] <jcoxon> he is incredible at decoding
[19:36] <edmoore_> and what is the offocial position on functionality or lack thereof?
[19:37] <edmoore_> decoding morse?
[19:37] <jcoxon> http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&ll=35.532226,-52.119141&spn=64.889359,135.351563&t=h&z=4&msid=100298140153010419594.000467fa61912b042a981
[19:37] <jcoxon> yeah decoding
[19:37] <edmoore_> oh goodness
[19:37] <edmoore_> half way
[19:37] <edmoore_> surely it's going too slowly to have much chance of making it though?
[19:37] <jcoxon> trans isn't the point
[19:37] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: where's the US receiver located?
[19:38] <jcoxon> it was an enduarance flight
[19:38] <jcoxon> albany NY
[19:38] <jcoxon> shame, they would have made it if they had gone for a day of good winds
[19:38] <gordonjcp> oh yeah, he's a hell of a lot closer than me
[19:38] <gordonjcp> nfw could I hear that (yet)
[19:38] <jcoxon> same
[19:39] <gordonjcp> in an hour or so we might *maybe* get some greyline magic
[19:39] <jcoxon> :-)
[19:41] <edmoore_> greyline?
[19:41] Nick change: edmoore_ -> m0tek
[19:41] <gordonjcp> edmoore_: you've got your m0 and you don't know about greyline? ;-)
[19:42] <gordonjcp> basically when the sun hits the atmosphere the D layer forms, and attenuates a lot of RF, but it also ionises up the E layer reflecting stuff
[19:42] <m0tek> something that happens to your hair in your 40s?
[19:42] <jcoxon> so dusk and dawn everything goes well
[19:42] <gordonjcp> right about dawn or dusk you get a spot where the E layer is up but the D layer isn't yet
[19:42] <sbasuita> jcoxon, I wouldn't stay the VHF stuff was good - just some guys jabbering about going to pick up their daughters ;)
[19:42] <jcoxon> good prop
[19:42] <jcoxon> sbasuita, sounds about right
[19:42] <gordonjcp> yeah
[19:42] <m0tek> sbasuita: that is all you get on repeaters
[19:42] <gordonjcp> you get a "tunnel" of really beasty propagation for an hour or two
[19:42] <gordonjcp> sbasuita: yeah
[19:43] <gordonjcp> or me and a couple of the other "locals" rabbiting on about pies and bikes, on GB3CS
[19:43] <gordonjcp> ;-)
[19:43] <m0tek> our ones talk about decking
[19:43] <m0tek> and they have to pop off every now and then to get a catheter fitted
[19:44] <gordonjcp> I'm one of the youngest members of our club
[19:44] <gordonjcp> (at 35)
[19:45] <m0tek> CUWS is fairly young, but I guess that stands to reason
[19:45] <gordonjcp> ye
[19:46] <gordonjcp> there are actually quite a few 30-somethings in our local club
[19:46] <m0tek> girls?
[19:46] <gordonjcp> not really, although my gf is talking about getting her licence
[19:47] <m0tek> i'm not sure mine would ever agree to such a thing
[19:47] <m0tek> she almost dies in hysterics when I announce my callsign
[19:48] <gordonjcp> o_O
[19:49] <gordonjcp> actually now I think about it, there's a probably about as many of us 20ish/30ish people as 60ish/70ish types
[19:49] <gordonjcp> the 40ish/50ish lot are somewhat under-represented
[19:49] <gordonjcp> ;-)
[19:49] <jcoxon> 30 seconds...
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[19:52] <m0tek> ?
[19:53] <jcoxon> oh to the transmission
[19:54] <jcoxon> ping natrium42
[19:56] <m0tek> i really wish i didn't have exams
[19:56] <m0tek> or i'd head out to the shack
[19:56] <m0tek> maybe tomorrow i'll have a listen
[19:56] <jcoxon> kick someone else to
[19:56] <jcoxon> i don't think it'll make the night
[19:56] <m0tek> noting till thursday after tomorrow's 9am
[19:56] <jcoxon> but Wb8ELK is going to launch soon
[19:56] <jcoxon> with a sensible transmission schedule
[19:56] <m0tek> trans or endurance?
[19:56] <m0tek> what is wrong with this one's?
[19:57] <jcoxon> once every 10mins CW for under a minute of transmission
[19:57] <jcoxon> unless you know exactly where to be you'll miss it
[19:57] <jcoxon> a single string of CW
[19:58] <m0tek> that is a bit silly
[19:58] <jcoxon> at least a lead in of characters
[19:58] <jcoxon> to tune in
[19:58] <jcoxon> or repeat the string
[19:58] <jcoxon> oh well
[19:58] <m0tek> maybe just continuous 3W spread-spectrum and hope no-one notices
[19:58] <jcoxon> hehe
[19:58] <jcoxon> blast it
[19:59] <m0tek> might want some solar cells
[19:59] <m0tek> actually... i guess a 10mhz yagi might not have 1mhz of bandwidth - gordonjcp what do you reckon?
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[20:06] <gordonjcp> m0tek: hmm, probably not
[20:07] <gordonjcp> you could probably make an estimate from the bandwidth of a 14MHz and 7MHz yagi
[20:07] <gordonjcp> maybe a bloody great folded dipole
[20:07] <m0tek> yeah
[20:07] <m0tek> i guess it should still pick it up fine
[20:07] <m0tek> being beneath the noise floor is kind of the point, i guess
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[20:24] <jcoxon> hey rjharrison
[20:31] <rjharrison> hey jcoxon
[20:31] <rjharrison> how's it going
[20:31] <rjharrison> is PHB4 down?
[20:32] <rjharrison> wow
[20:32] <rjharrison> You have update the track
[20:35] <jcoxon> urgh its hard work
[20:37] <jcoxon> i'm passing on all the data to pbh
[20:37] <jcoxon> but recently its been hard to get a string
[20:41] <rjharrison> Oh dear
[20:41] <rjharrison> I can try with my antenna
[20:42] <rjharrison> I'm going to get a g5rv this week
[20:45] <jcoxon> :-)
[20:45] <jcoxon> i'm not copying in hte UK, in the US
[20:50] <sbasuita> jcoxon, have you connected the ft-790r to your computer before?
[20:51] <jcoxon> yes
[20:51] <sbasuita> jcoxon, what sort of cable did you use?
[20:52] <jcoxon> there is a 3.5 jack on teh side
[20:52] <sbasuita> Was it connected to the EXT SP on the side?
[20:52] <sbasuita> oh right 3.5
[20:52] <sbasuita> great :)
[20:53] <jcoxon> have fun :-)
[20:53] <jcoxon> its a great radio, while old its still the best
[20:56] <jcoxon> http://spacenear.us/gfs/audio/
[20:56] <jcoxon> audio recordings of the data transmissions
[21:02] <sbasuita> jcoxon, from which flihgt?
[21:04] <jcoxon> the ZP flight htats flying now
[21:05] <m0tek> it's not the best
[21:06] <m0tek> jcoxon: are you on email firing backwards/forwards with wb8ek?
[21:06] <jcoxon> yes
[21:06] <jcoxon> well he isn't around right now
[21:06] <jcoxon> so i'm doing that bit
[21:07] <jcoxon> but struggling
[21:07] <sbasuita> jcoxon, how much would I spend to pick something like the 790r up?
[21:07] <jcoxon> 100
[21:07] <m0tek> sbasuita: you want an ic-7000
[21:07] <jcoxon> but they are hard to find
[21:07] <sbasuita> ouch
[21:07] <sbasuita> radios don't depreciate much do they?
[21:09] <m0tek> they're a good investment
[21:09] <m0tek> it's more that a very well designed and sensitive receiver circuit will always be a well designed and sensitive receiver circuit
[21:09] <sbasuita> mmm
[21:09] <m0tek> our ft-790 has served us really really wel
[21:09] <m0tek> l
[21:10] <sbasuita> it's like 20 years old right?
[21:10] <m0tek> sounds about right
[21:11] <DanielRichman> Hmm. In the UKHAS protocol, it says <LONGITUDE DD.DDDDDD>. Should it be DDD.DDDDDD?
[21:11] <m0tek> not in this hemisphere
[21:12] <m0tek> sbasuita: the yaesu ft-817 is the one to go for if you are looking to buy one radio
[21:12] <m0tek> james has upgraded to it, rjharrison has one too, and I think we're going to splurge pretty soon too as a chase radio
[21:12] <DanielRichman> to make things simpler, our code is fixed width... as a general principle, longitude degrees can be up to 3 digits, right?
[21:12] <m0tek> keeping the 790 as a backup
[21:13] <m0tek> 180 = 3
[21:13] Action: m0tek shivers
[21:13] <DanielRichman> Also, what happens if we start going east of 0degrees long? Do we send negative longitude? The lassen currently feeds us longitude like this: 00045.2153,W
[21:13] <jcoxon> got a full string
[21:13] <jcoxon> N2XE 13447 N34734 W45207 395 95
[21:13] <DanielRichman> I guess that it will change to 00001.0013,E. Do we need to detect that and prepend a negative sign?
[21:14] <m0tek> we use negative signs
[21:14] <m0tek> east is positive
[21:14] <DanielRichman> Ok.
[21:14] <DanielRichman> and for latitude I hope that north is positive?
[21:15] <sbasuita> jcoxon, btw, the transceiver package came with an ntx2 soldered onto a little board with some pins and wire
[21:15] <sbasuita> jcoxon, is that yours?
[21:15] <jcoxon> oh yeah
[21:16] <jcoxon> thats mine, i sent to to josh as he was waiting for his
[21:18] <stilldavid> I just talked to Lemos, the US distributor of radiometrix. sounds like 2-4 week lead time for an nrx/ntx on the 2 meter band
[21:18] <stilldavid> is that about right for them, or just for US stuff?
[21:19] <m0tek> rjharrison: no phone calls from cambridge?
[21:19] <m0tek> also, where's the most complete source of raw tlemetry data?
[21:19] <m0tek> for ic
[21:19] <m0tek> Ik*
[21:24] <DanielRichman> Ok. Another question: is <LATITUDE DD.DDDDDD> really DD.MMmmmm; where D is degrees, M is minutes, and mmmm is decimal minutes?
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[21:25] <DanielRichman> Or, say, for example, the lassen-iq sent us this string: 4807.0381,N - which means - Latitude 48 deg 07.0381' N. Do we then send, over the radio, 48.070381, or is any conversion required?
[21:26] <sbasuita> that zp balloon has been slashdotted btw http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/19/233224&from=rss
[21:26] <shellevil> DanielRichman: without conversion
[21:27] <DanielRichman> shellevil, thank god.
[21:27] <shellevil> DanielRichman: as an aside, you can enter @56.43343N,0.001W to google-maps and it just works
[21:28] <DanielRichman> As everything google should
[21:28] <jcoxon> ooo its decimal
[21:28] <jcoxon> so you need to convert it
[21:29] <shellevil> oh
[21:29] <jcoxon> gps modules are annoying but hte world really works in decimal
[21:29] <shellevil> oh yeah
[21:29] <shellevil> sorry
[21:30] <shellevil> you just do degrees + (minutes/60)+(seconds/3600)
[21:30] Action: shellevil should not post immediately after waking up
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[21:31] <DanielRichman> conversion! nooooo!
[21:31] <shellevil> one thing to be careful of is that lon has 3 digits, and lat 2
[21:32] <shellevil> it's not too hard to break on 99->100 degrees if you've not checked it
[21:32] <DanielRichman> Ok. So you're saying that the gps module is giving me data in degrees-minutes-seconds, and I need to output degrees.decimalminutes?
[21:32] <shellevil> yes
[21:32] <shellevil> they usually do
[21:32] <DanielRichman> what a pain.
[21:32] <shellevil> they may be configurable to do otherwise
[21:33] <DanielRichman> hmm. However, an NMEA guide I found suggested that 4807.0381,N meant Latitude 48 deg 07.0381' N? Or does the ' after that last number mean that it is infact seconds
[21:34] <m0tek> ha, slashdotters are giving them grief for being 'amateurs' too
[21:42] <m0tek> jcoxon: what kit are you using to listen to it?
[21:43] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, so just to confirm, the data from the gps 4807.0381,N means 48 degrees, 7.0381 minutes, and I have to convert that into 48.xxxxxx degrees, where X is part-of-a-degree?
[21:43] <m0tek> correct
[21:43] <m0tek> basically just decimalisation of sub-segrees
[21:44] <DanielRichman> How annoying. Gonna see if I can get the lassen to send it as decimal-degrees in the first place... that'd be so much easier.
[21:45] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, don't screw the lassen software setup
[21:45] <m0tek> you can reset it
[21:46] <m0tek> what protocol are you using?
[21:46] <sbasuita> nmea
[21:46] <m0tek> ziz vaz your first miztake
[21:46] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, told you so.
[21:46] <DanielRichman> m0tek, TSIP?
[21:47] <m0tek> well, tbh NMEA will work fine, but we use TSIP as you can get more information, and it is very much more simple to process
[21:47] <m0tek> no faffy ascii/int conversion
[21:47] <DanielRichman> I'll enjoy reading the manual tomorrow. Or not. But if TSIP can provide decimal degrees then it seems like the way to go.
[21:47] <DanielRichman> brb
[21:47] <sbasuita> it can't be that hard to convert it
[21:47] <m0tek> well the maths is easy for convert arc mins to decimal
[21:48] <sbasuita> we don't really need any 'extra' information from tsip
[21:48] <DanielRichman> Its still faffy ascii/double conversion. Suppose it can't be *that* bad.
[21:48] <sbasuita> don't have to use double
[21:48] <sbasuita> you could use two ints
[21:48] <sbasuita> well more than two
[21:49] <m0tek> convert the 07.0381 ascii to a float, then divide it by 60
[21:49] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, no, because the lassen gives us minutes.decimalminutes, ie 3.0049 minutes
[21:49] <DanielRichman> and we gotta divide that whole number by 60 then times by 100. or the other way round (better to times first)
[21:49] <sbasuita> I don't want to go with trimble's proprietary interface
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[21:49] <Laurenceb> hello
[21:49] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, don't worry about it. I'll just atof then mess around a bit
[21:49] <sbasuita> hi
[21:49] <DanielRichman> hi
[21:49] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, cool
[21:50] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, nmea vs tsip
[21:50] <Laurenceb> tsip FTW
[21:50] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, hahahaha
[21:50] <sbasuita> ; (
[21:50] <Laurenceb> smaller code, faster, easier ect ect
[21:51] <Laurenceb> ascii conversion is just daft IMO
[21:51] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, the main problem is that the Lassen gives us degrees decimal minutes, not decimal degrees :(
[21:51] <DanielRichman> Know if TSIP dishes out decimal degrees or not?
[21:51] <Laurenceb> well
[21:51] <Laurenceb> its float32
[21:51] <Laurenceb> or single
[21:52] <Laurenceb> I guess it depends what you want - if you just want to relay ascii then nmea is best. And onboard processing whatsoever and TSIP is much better
[21:52] <Laurenceb> s/and/any
[21:52] <sbasuita> Mmm.... the flight computer never actually has to understand the gps co-ordinates
[21:53] <sbasuita> just shunt them around to the radio, sms and logs
[21:53] <m0tek> for now, sure
[21:53] <Laurenceb> how was the exams?
[21:53] <m0tek> both fine thanks
[21:53] <Laurenceb> great stuff
[21:53] <m0tek> although the second had decidedly outside 2-sigma questions
[21:54] <m0tek> funky crank questions on volume rendering oddities
[21:54] <Laurenceb> theres always scaling to consider
[21:54] <Laurenceb> just have to try to remain calm and not lose it
[21:54] <m0tek> and maximum likelihood estimations of positron emission tomography data. basically my other courses got me thorugh
[21:54] <Laurenceb> in those scituations
[21:55] <Laurenceb> sounds interesting
[21:55] <m0tek> if i was a mechanical engineer i'd have been up shit creek
[21:56] <Laurenceb> I had an obsolutely appauling information theory paper last year, and got 80% due to scaling
[21:57] <Laurenceb> as most of the other people just lost it - 5 poeple walked out in the first 10 minutes
[22:00] <m0tek> wow
[22:00] <m0tek> i adore info theory
[22:01] <m0tek> MacKay's text book is my bible
[22:01] <DanielRichman> Bye
[22:01] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, bai
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[22:04] <Laurenceb> afk cooking
[22:08] <jcoxon> http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/
[22:10] <natrium42> hi
[22:10] <natrium42> jcoxon, any signal on globaltuners?
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[22:16] <jcoxon> yes
[22:16] <jcoxon> XE 1338 O N34952 W4V416 387 9D
[22:16] <natrium42> albany still getting it?
[22:16] <m0tek> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV7SXmHq0Bk
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[22:17] <natrium42> m0tek hit and run
[22:17] <jcoxon> natrium42, yeah
[22:17] <natrium42> cool
[22:17] <Laurenceb> back
[22:17] <natrium42> i need their kind of antenna
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[22:18] <Laurenceb> so has anyone got it this side of the atlantic yet?
[22:18] <edmoore> no
[22:18] <jcoxon> natrium42, http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/
[22:18] <Laurenceb> who is WB8ELK?
[22:18] <natrium42> bill brown
[22:18] <Laurenceb> ah
[22:19] <jcoxon> considering they still have full ballast tanks
[22:19] <jcoxon> they have done very well - the balloon however is monster
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[22:19] <Laurenceb> have they dropped any?
[22:20] <jcoxon> no
[22:20] <Laurenceb> nice
[22:20] <Laurenceb> the behaviour was interesting
[22:20] <Laurenceb> sudden loss of bouyancy
[22:21] <Laurenceb> at ~local sunset
[22:21] <Laurenceb> rather than the results I've seen from JAXA using very large envelopes where the loss of bouyancy is more protracted
[22:22] <Laurenceb> so what was the last altitude?
[22:22] <natrium42> jcoxon, did you get that tx?
[22:23] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:23] <jcoxon> just redecoding
[22:23] <jcoxon> i record it and then run it multiple times
[22:23] <jcoxon> as my filter is very small
[22:24] <natrium42> ok, cool
[22:24] <jcoxon> not so good:
[22:24] <jcoxon> XE 133B 6N5I EA 89 W44285 385 M N6
[22:24] <Laurenceb> what are you using?
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[22:25] <Laurenceb> to receive and decode
[22:27] <jcoxon> i'm using globaltuners in the US, Albany NY and then using soundflower to loop the sound back into cocoamodem
[22:28] <jcoxon> i'm also recording (pre set timer) with audacity and then rerun it to get the best run
[22:28] <Laurenceb> so its received using narrow band FM?
[22:28] <Laurenceb> continuous wave?
[22:29] <jcoxon> CW
[22:29] <jcoxon> 10.14690
[22:35] <Laurenceb> bbl
[22:52] <jcoxon> N2YXE 13299 N35123 W439?83 8? 97
[22:52] <jcoxon> oops
[22:52] <jcoxon> N2YXE 13299 N35123 W439?8 38? 97
[22:52] <jcoxon> thats better
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[22:55] <jcoxon> hi pbh-9
[22:55] <jcoxon> jcoxon = M6JCX
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[22:59] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: what's a sane tuning range?
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> 7MHz-7.3?
[23:02] <jcoxon> well 40m is 7.0 to 7.2
[23:02] <Xenion> Gute Nacht jungs ! :-)
[23:02] <jcoxon> but thats quite new
[23:03] <jcoxon> it changed a couple of weeks ago from 7.0 - 7.1
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[23:03] <jcoxon> so most of the stuff happens there
[23:03] <jcoxon> i'd go 7-7.2
[23:06] <Laurenceb> whats the bandwidth of a CW receiver then?
[23:07] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: wheres the google maps tracking page?
[23:09] <gordonjcp> Laurenceb: depends
[23:09] <gordonjcp> Laurenceb: some CW filters are as narrow as a couple of hundred Hz
[23:12] <natrium42> jcoxon, is that a buggy point?
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[23:26] <Laurenceb> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=559 apparently theres a 868MHz version of that
[23:33] <Laurenceb> looks like pbh3 might make the night ok
[23:35] Action: SpeedEvil stabs BT.
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> IP profile for your line is - 135 kbps
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 69 kbps
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[23:36] <Laurenceb> apparently sparkfun will have new ublox 5 modules with srantel antenna in about 4 days
[23:36] Action: Laurenceb cant wait
[23:36] <edmoore> 406s?
[23:38] <Laurenceb> yep thats the one
[23:38] <Laurenceb> I'm going to order at least one of those and several UM12 modules
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[23:40] <SpeedEvil> um12?
[23:41] <Laurenceb> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=560
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> I've got a couple of those I think
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> actually - no
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> IIRC mine were shorter range ones.
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[23:44] <Laurenceb> an A380 flew over my house earlier today
[23:45] <SpeedEvil> A seagull flew over mine.
[23:45] <Laurenceb> its quite a distinctive sound - I thought it was my neighbours strimmer
[23:46] <Laurenceb> not sure how many there are flying now - it looked like it had a blue airbus tail
[23:47] <Laurenceb> gtg, cya all
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[23:55] <jcoxon> natrium42, got a better rx
[23:57] <natrium42> cool, which one?
[23:59] <jcoxon> Northwestern Connecticu
[23:59] <natrium42> cool
[00:00] --- Tue Apr 21 2009