highaltitude.log.20090412

[00:00] <gordonjcp> shellevil: yes, but digitising at 12kHz is just going to give you noise
[00:00] <gordonjcp> you won't be able to pick any distinct signal out of it at all
[00:01] <shellevil> If the input of the ADC has bandwidth of >1MHz or so, and the IF and ADC clocks are jitter free to some small limit, you should
[00:02] <Laurenceb> yes
[00:02] <Laurenceb> anyway I'm off, cya
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[00:02] <gordonjcp> shellevil: I really can't see that working well at all
[00:03] <shellevil> Umm. The acceptable jitter is...
[00:03] <shellevil> I think it's about a eighth of 6/455ths of a IF wave.
[00:04] <shellevil> Or 4ns?
[00:07] <gordonjcp> that's quite a big jitter
[00:08] <gordonjcp> I'd like to think the clocks were better than that
[00:08] <shellevil> yes, though 4ns at 16KHz is maybe a bit less trivial.
[00:10] <gordonjcp> yes
[00:10] <gordonjcp> comparatively speaking that's about...
[00:10] <gordonjcp> a week
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[03:36] <GeekShadow> hi
[03:38] <GeekShadow> yeah ctcp me :)
[03:45] <natrium42> lol
[03:45] <natrium42> winxp?
[03:45] <natrium42> pfft
[03:58] <GeekShadow> natrium42, actually I got WinXP on my computer, but I got a laptop with Mac OS X/Win7/Win Vista on multiboot and I got to use linux/ubuntu for almost 1 year ;)
[04:33] <natrium42> good, good
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[05:09] <rjharrison> Moring all
[05:09] <rjharrison> 5.09
[05:09] <rjharrison> ouch
[05:09] <rjharrison> Of to the launch site in 10 mins
[05:16] <rjharrison> Wakey wakey
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[05:18] <natrium42> hey hallam
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[06:52] <jcoxon> morning all
[06:55] <natrium42> hey jcoxon
[06:56] <jcoxon> hey natrium42
[06:57] <jcoxon> going to be around for the launch?
[06:58] <natrium42> think so
[06:58] <natrium42> unless i fall asleep
[06:59] <jcoxon> hehe
[06:59] <jcoxon> our timezones really don't match up in regards to launches
[07:01] <natrium42> launches from UK
[07:01] <jcoxon> yeah
[07:02] <natrium42> in the other direction it seems fine :)
[07:02] <jcoxon> :-)
[07:02] <jcoxon> i think i'm up a little early
[07:03] <natrium42> rob left for the launch site exactly 2 hours ago
[07:03] <natrium42> well, a little less
[07:04] <natrium42> how long is the trip?
[07:05] <jcoxon> hmmm perhaps 2 and 1/2
[07:05] <jcoxon> but of course he is running his dlclient
[07:05] <natrium42> are you going to be listening too?
[07:05] <jcoxon> oh wait thats him at home
[07:05] <jcoxon> yes
[07:06] <jcoxon> just putting up my antenna now
[07:06] <natrium42> excellent
[07:06] <jcoxon> i'm not in london though
[07:13] <jcoxon> oooo spacenear.us looks good
[07:15] <natrium42> i fixed it up slightly :)
[07:16] <jcoxon> my stupidly low bandwidth connection is struggling a little
[07:17] <natrium42> with the initial loading of positions?
[07:17] <jcoxon> mainly google maps
[07:17] <jcoxon> shall i get rid of the test track?
[07:18] <natrium42> sure
[07:19] <natrium42> btw, you can select black page style
[07:19] <natrium42> if you're using firefox: View -> Page Style -> Black
[07:19] <natrium42> dunno if i like it, i was messing around a bit a while back...
[07:23] <jcoxon> i've deleted the old trace
[07:24] <natrium42> kk
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[07:48] <rharrison_eee> morning all
[07:48] <jcoxon> hey rharrison_eee
[07:48] <rharrison_eee> Bit wet here
[07:48] <jcoxon> raining?
[07:49] <rharrison_eee> yep
[07:49] <rharrison_eee> but we'll go up in a window
[07:49] <jcoxon> it ain't going to stop raining
[07:50] <rharrison_eee> np
[07:50] <jcoxon> i'm all set up
[07:50] <rharrison_eee> my we'll manage it
[07:50] <rharrison_eee> cool
[07:51] <jcoxon> what sort of time frame?
[07:51] <rharrison_eee> seems a shame to abort as we have every thing
[07:51] <rharrison_eee> wx only lasts a feww humdred meterrs
[07:51] <jcoxon> oh yeah
[07:51] <jcoxon> ran a predict - seems fine, weird flight path but landing in norfolk
[07:51] <natrium42> hey rharrison_eee
[07:52] <rharrison_eee> Hi natrium42
[07:52] <rharrison_eee> About to arrive at ears
[07:52] <rharrison_eee> 5 mins
[07:52] <natrium42> cool, good luck with the launch
[07:54] <rharrison_eee> Bit wet
[07:54] <rharrison_eee> #as in raining
[07:54] <rharrison_eee> Have we done a wet launch before
[07:54] <rharrison_eee> Lull in raind atm
[07:54] <jcoxon> ummm a few damp launches
[07:55] <jcoxon> but really it doesn't make a difference - you just get wet
[07:55] <natrium42> will it affect radio transmission?
[07:55] <jcoxon> yeah it will a bit
[07:55] <jcoxon> but we should be okay at least for tracking
[07:56] <natrium42> well, rob is testing uplink, right?
[07:56] <jcoxon> yup
[07:56] <natrium42> is a rainy day a good baseline?
[07:56] <jcoxon> probably not
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[08:04] <rharrison_eee> at ears will start setting up and testing
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[08:41] <rharrison_eee> Boo
[08:42] <rharrison_eee> ok data should be comming through
[08:43] <natrium42> yep, cool
[08:43] <natrium42> you are... in the middle of nowhere
[08:46] <jcoxon> rharrison_eee, how is it going?
[08:55] <rharrison_eee> Ok steve is here
[08:55] <rharrison_eee> Just going to test uplink
[08:55] <rharrison_eee> need to drop connection for a second
[08:55] <natrium42> kk
[08:55] <natrium42> hi steve
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[09:00] <rharrison_eee1> back
[09:00] <rharrison_eee1> Ok steve has my usb extension cable
[09:00] <rharrison_eee1> Going to inflate baloon
[09:01] <jcoxon> uplink working?
[09:01] <rharrison_eee1> Just testing
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[09:02] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[09:02] <edmoore> yo
[09:03] <edmoore> latest?
[09:03] <jcoxon> just inflating
[09:03] <jcoxon> data is coming in
[09:03] <edmoore> can see
[09:03] <edmoore> cool
[09:04] <edmoore> just in time
[09:04] <jcoxon> and they are checking the uplink
[09:04] <edmoore> my hour of oversleep wasn't a disaster then
[09:05] <jcoxon> :-)
[09:08] <jcoxon> real launch time = planned launch time + 1hr
[09:08] <edmoore> real launch time = planned launch time + x
[09:08] <edmoore> where 1 < x < 12
[09:08] <natrium42> the jcoxon corollary?
[09:09] <jcoxon> nova 2 was + 24hrs iirc
[09:10] <edmoore> nova 11 was
[09:10] <edmoore> 2 was + 5 or 6 I think
[09:11] <edmoore> 2 was where balloon was inflated before electronics were confirmed working
[09:11] <edmoore> mistake #1
[09:11] <jcoxon> didn't we have to deflate the balloon and try the next day
[09:11] <jcoxon> active antenna woes
[09:11] <edmoore> nova 11 was one stressed out hallam
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[09:13] <edmoore> with such a light payload under a 2kg balloon, there's some serious alt record potential. jcoxon do you know what the strategy is?
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[09:14] <jcoxon> i don't think there is a plan for one
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[09:15] <jcoxon> its quite wet on the ground so i'm not sure they are going to pay too much attention to ascent rate
[09:16] <jcoxon> but yes, but altitude records are always in the back of rob's mind :-D
[09:17] <natrium42> :)
[09:18] <jcoxon> natrium42, you going to try and track the ZP launch on the 18th?
[09:18] <natrium42> yes, sure
[09:19] <jcoxon> i'm working on an adapted DL client that will switch to the correct freq depending on the time (they are alternating between 30m and 40m)
[09:19] <jcoxon> and then scanning up and down
[09:19] <natrium42> is our HF transmitter going to do that?
[09:20] <jcoxon> ours will just be on 40m
[09:21] <edmoore> aazing how much bg noise there is on 40m!
[09:21] <edmoore> it's like the opening of a new IKEA store
[09:21] <jcoxon> hehe, its a busy channel
[09:21] <natrium42> edmoore, i found something for you --> http://www.supersimplestorageservice.com
[09:22] <edmoore> hohoho
[09:22] <natrium42> :P
[09:23] <natrium42> the api is nice & simple
[09:30] <rharrison_eee1> James, could you do a tracking prediction?
[09:31] <jcoxon> i could
[09:31] <jcoxon> it depends on altitude
[09:32] <jcoxon> as max altitude increases it goes East
[09:33] <jcoxon> but all the traj are on land
[09:34] <rharrison_eee1> altitude about 30000 metres
[09:34] <edmoore> pah
[09:34] <edmoore> 36000km
[09:34] <edmoore> m*
[09:34] <jcoxon> 15km east of kings lynn
[09:35] <jcoxon> 35km, towards norwich :-p
[09:35] <jcoxon> 40km alt will land just east of norwich :-p
[09:36] <jcoxon> okay thats a bit much
[09:37] <natrium42> does the predictor work to 36000km? :)
[09:38] <natrium42> "ERROR: burst altitude must be below 60Km" :(
[09:53] <jcoxon> rharrison_eee1, any updates?
[09:55] Action: shellevil gathers from the VNC authentication failure that rharrison_eee1 must be logged in
[09:56] <rharrison_eee1> we are up
[09:57] <jcoxon> great
[09:57] <edmoore> quite an update rate
[09:58] <shellevil> indeed
[09:58] <jcoxon> got it
[10:00] <shellevil> What's the ascent rrate - not up to complex maths.
[10:01] <jcoxon> 75m in 15 seconds
[10:01] <edmoore> wow wind shere
[10:02] <edmoore> oh nippy
[10:05] <natrium42> jcoxon, cool you got signal
[10:05] <jcoxon> yeah
[10:05] <jcoxon> very strong
[10:06] <jcoxon> hmmm this is interesting
[10:06] <edmoore> 6.18m/s in the last minute
[10:06] <jcoxon> the client is missing sentences
[10:06] <jcoxon> oh perhaps not
[10:06] <edmoore> up like a rocket
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[10:07] <shellevil> mach 0.05
[10:08] <edmoore> thanks shellevil
[10:08] <natrium42> XD
[10:09] <jcoxon> i'm always amazed by the range of the radio on these payloads
[10:09] <rharrison_eee1> Looking good
[10:09] <rharrison_eee1> Can we have a predict given the current assent rate?
[10:09] <jcoxon> today my first string was at 1056m
[10:10] <jcoxon> 2kg balloon?
[10:10] <natrium42> flying over Harrison Way
[10:10] <edmoore> rharrison_eee1: assuming 32km burst (plucked out of my bum), downham market
[10:10] <edmoore> what is the payload mass?
[10:10] <edmoore> will try and give you a better figure
[10:12] <edmoore> oh actually, don't have excel
[10:12] <edmoore> nvm
[10:12] <rharrison_eee1> payload weight 600g
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[10:13] <natrium42> going to catch some sleep sorry
[10:13] <edmoore> 5.5m/s based on the last minute
[10:14] <edmoore> 6.3 again
[10:14] <edmoore> a bit of noise
[10:14] <g8khw> Yo chaps
[10:14] <edmoore> hi g8khw
[10:15] <jcoxon> night natrium42
[10:15] <jcoxon> hey g8khw
[10:15] <natrium42> nite
[10:15] <g8khw> Can someone update me occasionally with a bearing from ears to icarus
[10:16] <jcoxon> pretty much directly north
[10:16] <jcoxon> 5 degrees perhaps
[10:17] <g8khw> Ta - I need to keep the tx yagi pointing at it
[10:18] <jcoxon> of course
[10:18] <g8khw> Let me know if it changes significantly
[10:21] <jcoxon> getting quite a bit of drift on the radio
[10:22] <g8khw> Yeah amazing gi
[10:23] <edmoore> swinging a bit east
[10:23] <g8khw> Ben how insulateed it is
[10:23] <edmoore> maybe add a degree to the yagi
[10:24] <jcoxon> its going to do a U turn in a bit
[10:27] <g8khw> It's cold here - two coats weather
[10:28] <jcoxon> so i assume the last 2 fields are ext and int temp
[10:29] <g8khw> No idea
[10:29] <jcoxon> -41.0,12.1
[10:33] <jcoxon> g8khw, add another degree
[10:34] <g8khw> N
[10:34] <g8khw> Ok
[10:35] <g8khw> What's the beating now
[10:36] <edmoore> 10-15
[10:37] <g8khw> Ta
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[10:45] <g8khw> I'm going to have to invent somthing to hold both antennas on
[10:46] <jcoxon> side by side yagi holder
[10:46] <jcoxon> like an AA gun
[10:48] <edmoore> it's heading back for you!
[10:49] <g8khw> Ah ok - where is it predicted
[10:49] <g8khw> To land
[10:49] <jcoxon> Downham Markey
[10:49] <jcoxon> Market*
[10:49] <jcoxon> it has a funny path
[10:50] <g8khw> Yeah that is funny
[10:52] <edmoore> it's lowed a little
[10:52] <edmoore> 5.5ish
[10:54] <g8khw> 40 mind to burst ?
[10:54] <g8khw> Mins
[10:54] <jcoxon> yeah
[10:54] <jcoxon> about that
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[11:05] <g8khw> You can really see the sidebands created by no shaping on fldigi
[11:08] <g8khw> Approx heading guys?
[11:08] <edmoore> 40 degrees
[11:08] <edmoore> approaching 45
[11:10] <g8khw> Ta
[11:11] <jcoxon> something weird just happened
[11:12] <g8khw> It's going down
[11:12] <jcoxon> wow thats low
[11:12] <edmoore> goodness
[11:13] <g8khw> Yeah and I don't thing it was overfilled
[11:13] <g8khw> Think
[11:13] <edmoore> oh we're way way way way below burst due to normal reasons
[11:13] <edmoore> we sent the teddies up at 6m/s, 2kg payload, 1.5kg balloon, and it broke 30km
[11:14] <edmoore> this is 6m/s, 0.6kg payload, 2kg balloon. it should be flirting with 34/35 by rights
[11:15] <edmoore> funky stuff happening now
[11:16] <edmoore> bbiab
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[11:23] <jcoxon> g8khw, has rob gone ahead?
[11:26] <mib_edz86a> why is there a marker over africa? is that a bad data point?
[11:26] <jcoxon> yeah
[11:26] <jcoxon> at burst we got some slightly corrupt data
[11:26] <gordonjcp> you know how when you let go of the neck of a balloon it whizzes around really fast?
[11:27] <gordonjcp> well, that happens
[11:27] <shellevil> :)
[11:27] <shellevil> also one north of tthat.
[11:27] <mib_edz86a> :)
[11:27] <gordonjcp> and it went over africa really fast going Pppphppptttrrrpp
[11:27] <mib_edz86a> hahaha
[11:27] <mib_edz86a> what IRC server is this btw? natrium said it was EFNet, but pretty sure it's not...
[11:27] <shellevil> freenode
[11:27] <jcoxon> freenode
[11:29] <shellevil> so good they named it twice.
[11:29] <jcoxon> the flight computer just reset
[11:30] <jcoxon> and again
[11:30] <shellevil> :/
[11:31] <shellevil> Is there a more raw access to the packets than the tracker?
[11:31] <jcoxon> yup
[11:31] <jcoxon> http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/loggers.php
[11:31] <jcoxon> just reset again
[11:32] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: how's the moxon working for you?
[11:32] <jcoxon> very good
[11:32] <gordonjcp> cool
[11:32] <gordonjcp> I kind of wondered about moxons for uhf, because a normal yagi isn't going to be much wider
[11:33] <gordonjcp> but I'm about to build a moxon for 4m
[11:33] <jcoxon> i'm getting pretty much nothing
[11:34] <shellevil> :/
[11:35] <shellevil> did it fade, or cut out?
[11:35] <jcoxon> its fading out
[11:37] <shellevil> I wonder how good a bearing your average yagi could give.
[11:38] <gordonjcp> probably fairly good
[11:38] <gordonjcp> depends how "long" it is
[11:38] <jcoxon> hmmm i'm getting nothing
[11:38] <g8khw> Tis a bit in distress. Methunks
[11:38] <gordonjcp> I know the 11-ele 70cm yagi I built is pretty sharp
[11:38] <shellevil> :/
[11:39] <jcoxon> i've lost it
[11:39] <shellevil> Was it drifting in frequency?
[11:39] <jcoxon> not really
[11:40] <jcoxon> fading in and out
[11:41] <shellevil> I make it as probably on the ground from the time, unless I'm confused
[11:41] <jcoxon> i lost it a while ago
[11:42] <jcoxon> g8khw, were you tracking?
[11:42] <shellevil> tracker says no
[11:43] <g8khw> I was but no better than you - I have a fldigi log if needed
[11:43] <edmoore> sounds a bit poorly
[11:44] <edmoore> i am sadly out today - i hope robert finds it
[11:44] <edmoore> if need be we can fire up the rabid monte carlo machine again to tear into the logs and guess the landing spot
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[11:44] <Laurenceb> hi
[11:44] <edmoore> is the last packet from 7ish km?
[11:44] <edmoore> Laure
[11:44] <edmoore> http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/
[11:44] <shellevil> yes :/
[11:44] <edmoore> people have stopped hearing it
[11:45] <shellevil> Should be on the ground I think - drom the times
[11:45] <Laurenceb> whats flying/crashing/landed?
[11:45] <shellevil> 7Km at 10:28
[11:45] <Laurenceb> rjharrison?
[11:45] <edmoore> roberharrison's icarus
[11:45] <shellevil> yes
[11:45] <shellevil> low burst
[11:45] <edmoore> last heard 15 mins ago
[11:45] <Laurenceb> I see
[11:45] <edmoore> yeah, 2kg balloon burst at 23km
[11:45] <edmoore> very odd
[11:45] <Laurenceb> good luck to him
[11:45] <shellevil> and something strange going on - computer reset
[11:46] <Laurenceb> and its in ghana
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[11:46] <Laurenceb> was this attempting an uplink?
[11:47] <edmoore> any word from rharrison_eee1 ?
[11:47] <edmoore> I beleive so
[11:47] <shellevil> MP3 player connected to reciever
[11:47] <shellevil> err
[11:47] <shellevil> mp3 recorder
[11:47] <edmoore> :)
[11:47] <Laurenceb> yeah
[11:47] <Laurenceb> its on HAM band?
[11:49] <edmoore> 169 500mW
[11:50] Nick change: g8khw -> freezingcoldrus
[11:52] <edmoore> ok gtg
[11:52] <edmoore> good luck all
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[12:41] <jcoxon> hey all
[12:51] <shellevil> yeh
[12:56] <jcoxon> they are searching with the yagi
[12:56] <shellevil> Smarter than the average antenna.
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[12:58] Action: shellevil goes out to burn more.
[12:58] <jcoxon> g8khw, anything?
[12:58] <g8khw> any updates
[12:58] <shellevil> nope
[12:58] <g8khw> Nip
[12:58] <g8khw> Nope
[12:58] <shellevil> What is the search area like?
[12:58] <shellevil> trees/lava/...
[12:59] <jcoxon> tis fen land
[12:59] <jcoxon> so marshy
[12:59] <g8khw> Where do we think it would have landed?
[12:59] <g8khw> Yeah lodsa fens
[12:59] <shellevil> last signal was 7Km up or so
[12:59] <shellevil> and going at 58Km/h or so.
[12:59] <jcoxon> hmmm sort of SW of Downham
[12:59] <shellevil> And about 10 min to the ground
[13:01] <g8khw> Ok I'm nearby will take a listen
[13:01] <jcoxon> g8khw, so i reckon along the a1101
[13:04] <jcoxon> bbl
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[14:28] <hallam> hey folks
[14:28] <hallam> how's the mission going?
[14:29] <shellevil> no reports here
[14:29] <shellevil> when did you last hear?
[14:29] <shellevil> burst early 22km or so
[14:29] <shellevil> reset a couple of times on the way down, and signal lost at 7km or so
[14:30] <hallam> ouch
[14:30] <shellevil> and 58km/h velocity
[14:30] <shellevil> so it'll have hit the grorund some 6-9Km downrange or so
[14:31] <hallam> that's tough
[14:31] <hallam> even harder than nova 11
[14:31] <hallam> i'll be back in a bit
[14:31] <shellevil> yeah
[14:31] <shellevil> wave
[14:31] <hallam> rharrison_eee: best of luck
[14:31] Nick change: hallam -> hallam|easter
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[17:07] <rharrison_eee> hi all
[17:07] <rharrison_eee> Well a bit of a disaster
[17:07] <rharrison_eee> TX packed in and waiting for someone to find it
[17:08] <shellevil> :/
[17:08] <shellevil> no sign then on the ground?
[17:28] <rharrison_eee> no
[17:28] <rharrison_eee> wE
[17:28] <rharrison_eee> opps we had a good look
[17:29] <rharrison_eee> shame really
[17:29] <rharrison_eee> Hopefully some one will find it and well find out what went wrong
[17:34] <RocketBoy> rharrison_eee: have you got a log that includes the fist few points after takeoff?
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[17:38] <edmoore> woosup?
[17:40] <edmoore> RocketBoy: what's happened since 7km and falling? that's the last I heard
[17:40] <RocketBoy> hi edmoore - no sign of icarus :-(
[17:40] <RocketBoy> lost for the moment
[17:40] <edmoore> this is odd
[17:41] <RocketBoy> everyone has gone home
[17:41] <edmoore> so it burst very very prematurely
[17:41] <edmoore> then started resetting around 10km
[17:41] <edmoore> the nothing since 7km
[17:42] <RocketBoy> yeah - i'll have a look at the logs again - but it just seemed to stutter
[17:42] <RocketBoy> out
[17:42] <rharrison_eee> nearly home
[17:42] <rharrison_eee> It's been a long day
[17:42] <edmoore> it's almost like something pretty serious happened to it at 23km
[17:42] <edmoore> hit a U2 spyplane or something
[17:42] <RocketBoy> yeah
[17:42] <RocketBoy> or ufo
[17:42] <rharrison_eee> I'm sure that the balloon burst unless DOD knocked it put
[17:43] <RocketBoy> we need a conspiricy theory
[17:44] <edmoore> must have had a major defect
[17:44] <rharrison_eee> I think the slim jim has wound around the GP antenna and pulled the circuit board to the point of disconnect
[17:44] <edmoore> it was a 2kg antenna?
[17:44] <edmoore> 2kg balloon*
[17:44] <rharrison_eee> no they just get very wound up and pull
[17:44] <RocketBoy> 1500
[17:45] <rharrison_eee> very inflated
[17:45] <rharrison_eee> RocketBoy: is sending me the bill for the helium :)
[17:45] <rharrison_eee> About 25 mins from home
[17:45] <shellevil> Do tanks have guages?
[17:46] <edmoore> cosh
[17:46] <edmoore> still burst very low
[17:46] <edmoore> odd
[17:46] <rharrison_eee> Yep hey ho can't have a record every time
[17:46] <rharrison_eee> about time to lose one
[17:47] <rharrison_eee> if ever there was a time
[17:47] <RocketBoy> shellevil: mostly yes a pressure guage
[17:48] <shellevil> If you fill a 1.5Kg balloon to 2Kg won't it burst at cuberoot(1.5/2) the normal pressure?
[17:48] <rharrison_eee> Sun sining like mad here
[17:48] <rharrison_eee> shining
[17:48] <shellevil> which should be only a little bit
[17:48] <edmoore> grim here
[17:48] <shellevil> lovely here
[17:48] <shellevil> has been all day
[17:48] <edmoore> shellevil: yes - it's a very premature burst
[17:49] <edmoore> not just within normal bounds
[17:49] <shellevil> I make that 90% of the normal pressure that it'll burst at - assuming the envelope exerts no pressure - which of course...
[17:50] <shellevil> But, that once you take into account scale height means 20% of 5Km or something
[17:50] <shellevil> So it should be 1Km or 2 lower maybe
[17:50] <rharrison_eee> Any idea 4 burst ?
[17:50] <shellevil> Was it 22?
[17:51] <shellevil> oh
[17:51] <shellevil> 23
[17:51] <rharrison_eee> 24 just
[17:52] <shellevil> so maybe 26 neglecting the fiill effects
[17:52] <shellevil> which is a bit low still
[17:52] <edmoore> rharrison_eee: what's your guess on the telem stuttering?
[17:52] <shellevil> Mmaybe temperature affects the burst strength of the latex too.
[17:53] <shellevil> 24->26 is cooling from -30 to -40C?
[17:53] Action: shellevil should probably look this up.
[17:53] <edmoore> yes do
[17:54] <edmoore> from past experience, one would be looking at a much higher burst
[17:54] <edmoore> just plug some numbers into burts1a.xls
[17:54] <rharrison_eee> Possibly a short circuit or antannae damage
[17:54] <rharrison_eee> I may have been a rocky ride
[17:54] <rharrison_eee> it
[17:56] <rharrison_eee> I'm sure the temp sensor are accurate to -50
[17:56] <rharrison_eee> tested them loads
[17:57] <rharrison_eee> .
[17:58] <rharrison_eee> home in 3 mins
[18:02] <shellevil> Hmm. 22->26 or so should be a positive lapse rate if anything
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[18:06] <edmoore> hi rjharrison
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[18:22] <jcoxon> hey all
[18:24] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[18:24] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[18:24] <edmoore> all well?
[18:25] <jcoxon> yeah, back in london now
[18:25] <jcoxon> shame about icarus
[18:25] <edmoore> agreed
[18:26] <edmoore> odd about early burst
[18:26] <edmoore> how did the resetting manifest itself at your end?
[18:27] <jcoxon> when icarus boots it rtty's out some text
[18:27] <jcoxon> so i got that a couple of times
[18:28] <jcoxon> the gps was still runing cause once it begun to transmit telem it was working
[18:28] <edmoore> ok
[18:28] <edmoore> so looks like multiple system failures in one mission
[18:28] <edmoore> maybe it got struck by lightening :)
[18:29] <edmoore> cos that's a bit unusual
[18:30] <edmoore> dodgy incomplete shred -> unstable fall -> wiggly batteries
[18:30] <edmoore> perhaps
[18:30] <jcoxon> i'm not sure if he has a gps backup battery but if not, if the batteries were the issue then he wouldn't have got a lock so quickly?
[18:31] <edmoore> the gps ram takes a bit of time to clear, I think
[18:33] <jcoxon> perhaps the voltage dropped a bit low for the avr
[18:33] <jcoxon> that can cause it to repeatedly restart
[18:34] <jcoxon> bbl
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[18:36] <natrium42> hi
[18:37] <natrium42> just read the log
[18:37] <natrium42> so was it raining when the balloon was launched?
[18:41] <edmoore> not sure if the others are about - I understand it was wet on the ground and a bit moist in the air
[18:41] <edmoore> but not actually raining
[18:41] <edmoore> however i was not there
[18:41] <natrium42> is it possible for droplets to freeze on the envelope?
[18:43] <shellevil> why would that cause low burst though
[18:43] <shellevil> also - they'd crack off as it expanded
[18:44] <edmoore> it may stop the latex stretching
[18:44] <shellevil> hmm
[18:44] <edmoore> but we've launched through wet clouds before
[18:45] <natrium42> hmm
[18:45] <shellevil> random question: What are those skates that run on grass called? /me wants some robot wheels.
[19:07] <rjharrison> Will talk later none the wiser as to what went on
[19:07] <rjharrison> Sorting kids out
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[19:18] <natrium42> hey jcoxon
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[19:19] <jcoxon> hey natrium42
[19:43] <rjharrison> Ok i have five mins
[19:43] <rjharrison> I have had a look at the data
[19:44] <rjharrison> The temperature seems very cold today at 10k +
[19:44] <rjharrison> perhaps that is normal the sensors should be very accurate and they have been tested and calibrated
[19:45] <natrium42> how cold?
[19:47] <RocketBoy> I just had a look at the descent rate of icarus: - about 10.3m/sec when at 6100m
[19:48] <edmoore> that doesn't sound too bad
[19:48] <RocketBoy> so just about right IMO
[19:48] <natrium42> 6100m?
[19:50] <RocketBoy> 6134 - my last good log entry
[19:50] <edmoore> rjharrison: what was the temp?
[19:50] <RocketBoy> 52.45143,0.179341
[19:51] <RocketBoy> $$icarus,3,10:30:41,52.45143,0.179341,6134,69.45,012.5,-22.5,0.6
[19:51] <edmoore> nvm got raw data
[19:55] <edmoore> it looks like it got pretty cold on the way down
[20:05] <shellevil> indicating an open box?
[20:07] <edmoore> that's a good thought
[20:07] <edmoore> http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/view.php
[20:07] <edmoore> temp is penultimate entry
[20:08] <edmoore> -40 at 10km on the way up, then it warms a bit
[20:09] <edmoore> yes shellevil that looks like quite a plausible thing
[20:09] <edmoore> so
[20:10] <edmoore> 23939 - highest telemetered altitude -10.5 degrees
[20:10] <edmoore> beg your pardon, 24017 -14 degrees
[20:10] <edmoore> but then burst
[20:11] <edmoore> within a minute we're talking 22217m, -40.8 degrees
[20:12] <edmoore> rjharrison: temp and alt vs time!
[20:12] <edmoore> that would be a remarkabley useful thing
[20:13] <edmoore> i don't know if it's just faster air flow through the box, but from photos the thing looked pretty sealed up
[20:14] <edmoore> so this might support an unexpected box opening theory
[20:21] <RocketBoy> I thought external temp is penaltimate and internal the last entry on the line
[20:21] <RocketBoy> so the inside stays toasty warm
[20:26] <edmoore> h'ok nvm
[20:26] <edmoore> that really is warm
[20:26] <edmoore> might be the mp3?
[20:28] <rjharrison> boo
[20:28] <rjharrison> Yep the last fig is the internal temp
[20:28] <gordonjcp> http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/pmap/ <- big aurora
[20:28] <rjharrison> Which is what I have thought for a while the internal stays warm
[20:29] <rjharrison> ie +0 deg C
[20:29] <rjharrison> External seems v cold
[20:29] <rjharrison> I don't have any prev external data to compare too
[20:30] <rjharrison> I think that there will have been significant damage to the payload by twisting of the antennas and the balloon
[20:30] <rjharrison> Will hopefully get a cal in the next few days
[20:31] <gordonjcp> rjharrison: calling it a success though?
[20:32] <edmoore> -50 is about right for 20ish km
[20:33] <RocketBoy> edmoore:BTW someone rang up Monday about the balloon we launched last Sunday - landed near thetford
[20:33] <edmoore> ah cool :)
[20:33] <edmoore> what was the mission called then?
[20:33] <rjharrison> Feeling a bit dejected tonight
[20:33] <RocketBoy> xaben3
[20:34] <rjharrison> It's not quite the same when you don't bring the payload home
[20:35] <rjharrison> If the last reading had been lower it would have been worth a ground search
[20:35] <edmoore> yeah, 6km is a bit high for much confidence
[20:36] <edmoore> though you might have heard it
[20:36] <rjharrison> I'm sure we had some catastophic failure of the payload containter
[20:36] <rjharrison> I'm sure there is no TX
[20:36] <rjharrison> We scoured very well with yagi for 3 1/2 hours
[20:38] <edmoore> ah ok
[20:38] <edmoore> serious then
[20:40] <rjharrison> Yep I'm not sure what happened but this board flew fine in January
[20:40] <rjharrison> The box was well packed so power failure from shaking is very unlikely
[20:42] <edmoore> and then there's this mysterious low burst
[20:42] <edmoore> i think someone was testing out a grenade launcher
[20:42] <rjharrison> Bad baloon?
[20:42] <edmoore> and you got in the way
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[20:42] <rjharrison> lol
[20:43] <rjharrison> I noticed a few weak points in the balloon befor launch
[20:43] <rjharrison> like round seethrough holes
[20:43] <rjharrison> I thought it was down to cinstruction
[20:43] <rjharrison> construction
[20:44] <rjharrison> They were about the size of a penny
[20:44] <rjharrison> biab
[20:44] <edmoore> i know the ones
[20:44] <edmoore> we see them a bit too
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[21:16] <RocketBoy> 52.551800,0.202181 is about where I put it using a combination of the wyoming forcast and icarus log
[21:19] <edmoore> i feel lost without my spreadsheets
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[21:32] <RocketBoy> rjharrison: how long will the batteries last (if still transmitting)?
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[21:34] <Laurenceb> hi
[21:34] <Laurenceb> payload recovered?
[21:35] <natrium42> no
[21:35] <Laurenceb> :-/
[21:35] <natrium42> last position is from ~6100m
[21:36] <Laurenceb> thats quite high
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[21:36] <edmoore> yes
[21:36] <edmoore> gives you a fairly large possible landing zone
[21:36] <edmoore> ok, I might have a guess at where it's landing
[21:38] <Laurenceb> any idea what the problem was?
[21:39] <edmoore> very low burst
[21:39] <edmoore> then cpu resets, by the sounds of things
[21:40] <edmoore> then nothing from 6.1km down
[21:40] <edmoore> rjharrison reckons the box lost integrity
[21:41] <Laurenceb> ouch
[21:41] <Laurenceb> hmm hope somethings recovered
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[21:49] <edmoore> hi GeekShadow
[21:50] <GeekShadow> hi edmoore
[21:50] <edmoore> all well?
[21:50] <GeekShadow> yep :)
[21:50] <GeekShadow> how many left hours for Icarus Flight II ?
[21:51] <edmoore> before the battery dies?
[21:52] <GeekShadow> http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/
[21:52] <GeekShadow> I see nothing
[21:52] <edmoore> how far did you get?
[21:54] <GeekShadow> edmoore, it's loading
[21:54] <edmoore> ok
[21:54] <edmoore> well, it started descending at a very low altitude
[21:55] <edmoore> 23-24km
[21:55] <edmoore> and then it looked like the flight computer was resetting a bit on the way down
[21:55] <edmoore> and then the last reported position was at about 6.1km altitude
[21:56] <edmoore> they hunted around on the ground but couldn't find it
[21:56] <edmoore> so there are multiple system failures (balloon burst then flight computer resets then death)
[21:57] <edmoore> and that's quite improbable that you'd get two independant such events
[21:57] <edmoore> and rjharrison builds things thoroughly and follows KISS
[21:57] <edmoore> so i guess we're trying to think if they all have a related reason
[21:59] <edmoore> because the balloon burst so low, it could be that it didn't burst properly (they normally shred into lots of little bits so you don't get one heavy tangling lump falling back onto the payload)
[21:59] <edmoore> however, at the last data points we have, it seemed to be descending at a completely sane speed
[22:00] <edmoore> suggesting there wasn't some horrible parachute tangle plumetting mess
[22:00] <edmoore> it could be that something got wrapped up in the antenna, and that yanked other stuff inside the box - don't know
[22:00] <edmoore> it's a tough one
[22:06] <Laurenceb> I see
[22:06] Action: Laurenceb is pondering making a prototype of his usb stick radio as a balloon uplink
[22:06] <Laurenceb> if you see what I mean
[22:07] <Laurenceb> - simpler design so I can get the measure of things - but good enough to work as a balloon uplink
[22:09] <Laurenceb> basically the RF section without the USB stuff
[22:10] <Laurenceb> LNA - ADL5387 - filter - VGA - AVR (inbuilt ADC) then a VCO and PLL to drive the ADL5387
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[22:19] <Laurenceb> bbl
[22:32] <shellevil> edmoore: utilising occams razor, the answer is clear.
[22:32] <shellevil> A wizard did it.
[22:32] <edmoore> i'm going to convolve a wizard gaussian with the dataset
[22:32] <edmoore> and see what value we get
[22:33] <edmoore> baysian inference makes occams razor pop out as a matter of course
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[22:51] <hallam> hello
[22:51] <hallam> rjharrison: any news?
[22:51] <hallam> (last I heard, you'd lost signal on the descent)
[22:53] <shellevil> nope
[22:53] <shellevil> they went out looking, and found nothing
[22:53] <hallam> sorry to hear it
[22:53] <hallam> maybe someone will turn it in
[22:53] <shellevil> maybe
[22:53] <shellevil> looking with RF
[22:53] <shellevil> not on foot
[22:54] <shellevil> The elipse is rather larger than the previous one
[22:54] <shellevil> as it was going lots faster, and was much higher
[22:54] <hallam> yeah
[22:58] <edmoore> http://xkcd.com/149/
[22:58] <edmoore> ignore that
[22:58] <edmoore> wrong windw
[22:59] <Laurenceb> lol
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[23:12] <Laurenceb> anyone here used phase locked loops?
[23:12] <Laurenceb> the hardware kind
[23:14] <edmoore> what's the latest on the cxxxxx rf modules?
[23:14] <edmoore> xxxxxx = some numbers
[23:14] <Laurenceb> cant find any :-/
[23:14] <Laurenceb> apart from sparkfun - I think
[23:14] <edmoore> but you think they'd work?
[23:14] <Laurenceb> and they are controlled by an avr with unknown firmware
[23:15] <Laurenceb> it probably doesnt do autotuning
[23:15] <Laurenceb> s/probably/certainly
[23:15] <edmoore> have you asked RocketBoy what he reckons about them?
[23:15] <Laurenceb> not yet :P
[23:15] <edmoore> he's in the know
[23:16] <Laurenceb> but yeah theres certainly chipcon and AXSEM chips that would do the job
[23:16] <Laurenceb> but I want to get some experience with PLLs and stuff :P
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[23:33] <shellevil> Just go with some coax and a bigger balloon.
[23:35] <stilldave> Laurenceb: I still haven't been able to get those HAC units to work :-/ I can get them both to print their model # on startup, but that's it
[23:35] <Laurenceb> :-/
[23:36] <Laurenceb> cant really think of anything to suggest, sorry
[23:36] <stilldave> I tried for about 2 hours the other night, am staring at them now about to give it another go.
[23:37] <stilldave> one's hooked up to my mac via a usb-ttl converter, the other to a linux box via rs-232
[23:37] <Laurenceb> bbl
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[00:00] --- Mon Apr 13 2009