highaltitude.log.20090406

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[07:55] <mc-> morning jcoxon
[07:55] <mc-> what pcb are you designin?
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[08:02] <jcoxon> hey mc-
[08:03] <jcoxon> oh i was playing with the concept of an arduino shield with lassen and radiometrix
[08:04] <mc-> dont you just need some bare pcb as a shield?
[08:05] <jcoxon> oh a 'shield' is the name for a board ontop of a arduino
[08:05] <jcoxon> rather then a shield against something
[08:06] <mc-> ah, what would it do?
[08:06] <mc-> ive got loads of spare old pcbs
[08:07] <jcoxon> it'll have a lassen iq gps and a radiometrix ntx2 and expose the rest of the avaliable lines
[08:07] <jcoxon> its relatively simple
[08:08] <mc-> how about a trani for the solenoid?
[08:08] <jcoxon> yeah i was thinking a low power mosfet
[08:09] <mc-> need a diode as well across the solenoid
[08:10] <mc-> was thinking of using a mite rxer to send commands to the solenoid
[08:12] <mc-> bye for now
[08:12] <jcoxon> cya
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[09:44] <rjharrison> Moring ed
[09:57] <edmoore> morning rjharrison
[09:57] <edmoore> I'm about to disappear
[09:57] <edmoore> a day or work ahead
[09:57] <edmoore> see you
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[12:03] <SpeedEvil> :) having intelligent relatives. Cousins up for ashes scattering ceremony sunday - out of 4 of them, 3 mostly understood at least the concept of dBmi
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[12:12] <SpeedEvil> hlo
[12:15] <Laurenceb> it would appear we are being monitored
[12:15] <Laurenceb> but do they log IRC ?
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> ?
[12:16] <Laurenceb> ISP datalogging law
[12:16] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[12:17] <Laurenceb> I dont think they know about IRC :P
[12:17] <Laurenceb> and you can always use VPN
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> If I was a terrorist, I'd be doing using TOR, with a moderate stash of horse-porn, or other slightly illegal content on the PC.
[12:19] <SpeedEvil> A few minutes research online revealed quite a lot of 'no questions asked' shell providers that could be paid by cash in the post.
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[13:20] <Laurenceb> http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Integrated-Circuits/Atmel-Microcontrollers/AVR-Dragon-Microcontroller-development-tool/77621/kw/73-4334?source=googleps&utm_source=googleps
[13:20] <Laurenceb> not a bad price at all
[13:20] Action: SpeedEvil wants some cleverdragons.
[13:20] <SpeedEvil> But those are stupid price :)
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[13:25] <Laurenceb> debugwire is cool
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[18:21] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[18:21] <edmoore> I had a thought
[18:21] <edmoore> about D-tracking
[18:22] <edmoore> shout when about
[18:28] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[18:28] <edmoore> yo
[18:28] <edmoore> so DL is a single transmitter, multiple receiver susyem
[18:29] <jcoxon> yup
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[18:30] <edmoore> each receiver gets the original signal + some unique(ish) random noise
[18:30] <edmoore> i.e. the channel from balloon to receiver is unique for each receiver
[18:30] <edmoore> so they all the receivers get different messages
[18:31] <jcoxon> okay
[18:31] <edmoore> so currently the client looks for the correct viable string from fldigi and sends it
[18:32] <edmoore> knowing that it's correct
[18:32] <edmoore> each listener does that
[18:32] <edmoore> from an information theoretic perspective, that is destroying useful information
[18:32] <edmoore> what I'm getting at is that the client should perhaps send all the raw crap to the server
[18:32] <jcoxon> if the data isn't correct it isn't sent you mean
[18:33] <edmoore> and the server can then use all the different strings it receives and make its best guess at the correct message
[18:34] <edmoore> basically, i reckon this could get us more info when it counts - i.e. as the balloon is dipping beneath the horizon for the various listeners
[18:35] <edmoore> also in combination with some kind of forward error correction, we could very much improve the collective tracking ear
[18:35] <jcoxon> yeah i understand
[18:35] <hallam> when do you think we should make the step to FEC?
[18:35] <jcoxon> the data is logged to the client's computer
[18:35] <edmoore> posterior FEC we should do asap I think
[18:35] <edmoore> that way people can still make sense of it by eye
[18:36] <jcoxon> perhaps a function which uploads the whole logfile when requested
[18:36] <jcoxon> and as they are all timestamped we could then diff them all
[18:36] <edmoore> but bear in mind hallam that with, say, 5 listeners, in a super simple channel model, you can get R5 encoding for free
[18:36] <edmoore> obviously I've made lots of assumptions there
[18:36] <jcoxon> (the logfile has all decoded data whether valid or not)_
[18:36] <hallam> sure
[18:37] <edmoore> if there was FEC, one could assign metrics for how well each station is copying just off the number of bit-flips it has to perform per packet
[18:37] <hallam> but even pretty basic FEC can perform a lot better than, e.g. R3 (which is a more realistic number of listeners atm)
[18:37] <jcoxon> hallam, 5 is quite a realistic number
[18:37] <edmoore> we should use both - the information is there :)
[18:37] <edmoore> no need to throw it away
[18:37] <hallam> sure
[18:38] <jcoxon> edmoore, i'm worried that it would require a lot more work on the server
[18:38] <jcoxon> perhaps on the 15minute update it uploads 15mins of raw data to the server
[18:38] <jcoxon> which is easily accessible with some php
[18:38] <edmoore> i think it'd just be one python script
[18:38] <jcoxon> so the chase team could eyeball it quickly
[18:38] <edmoore> (or whatever)
[18:39] <edmoore> it can still be done live, and the computation loads are trivially small
[18:39] <hallam> I do think it would be a good idea to go to binary data though. You can fit so much more in the same time, and that can include way better redundancy than ascii
[18:39] <shellevil> For optimal, you don't even want to go that cooked - but stream raw audio to server
[18:39] <hallam> and an fldigi plugin could mean that standalone people can still read it almost as easily as ascii
[18:39] <edmoore> sure, but then that *does* increase the complexity some
[18:39] <shellevil> yeah
[18:40] <jcoxon> edmoore, the advantage of the dlclient at present is that if left running it won't send junk
[18:40] <shellevil> Binary data + FEC is going to be smaller at the same bitrate
[18:40] <jcoxon> rob and i have left it running for hours to test this
[18:40] <edmoore> jcoxon: the disadvantage of the client at the moment is that if it thinks it's sending junk, it sends nothing at all
[18:40] <shellevil> And recover better from bit-errors that'll shred ascii
[18:41] <edmoore> whereas basically, if two listening stations choose to send nothing because they both think they have junk, there are many cases where actually, between them, they can decode the message correctly
[18:41] <shellevil> It'd be interesting to get multiple datastreams decoded
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[18:42] <shellevil> I mean - multiple audio streams from the same transmission
[18:42] <shellevil> and see how nasty it is to decode
[18:42] <jcoxon> edmoore, yeah completely see your point
[18:43] <edmoore> hallam: agree re: binary
[18:43] <shellevil> An intermediate solution would be to - for example - set alternate high bits on each byte
[18:43] <edmoore> just sending a c struct would be super-triv
[18:43] <shellevil> But staying with ascii
[18:44] <shellevil> this gives you a pretty good indication, even if you've got a fair number of bit errors that you've gotten something valid
[18:44] <shellevil> (neglecting that it won't look like ascii
[18:44] <edmoore> shellevil: that'd break fldigi, as it stands
[18:44] <edmoore> to make that work you'd have to write a plugin for fldigi
[18:44] <shellevil> It assumes 7 bit?
[18:44] <edmoore> and if you're going to that trouble, you may aswell actually do it properly
[18:44] <shellevil> yeah
[18:45] <edmoore> LDPC or RS or turbo-codes or something
[18:45] <edmoore> I don't really know how LDPC codes work though
[18:45] <jcoxon> do we actually need to go this step further though?
[18:45] <edmoore> it's precisely useful for times when it's very helpful
[18:45] <edmoore> like when it unexpectedly starts plummeting on the way down
[18:45] <edmoore> you hear it even lower
[18:46] <shellevil> I think that a worthwhile 'trivial' mod to fldigi would be to add more fsk shifts
[18:46] <jcoxon> like on nova11?
[18:46] <edmoore> exactly
[18:46] <jcoxon> but only one station was getting any data then
[18:46] <shellevil> So it can better match the 'real' shift - which seemed to be perhaps 300Hz on the last flight
[18:46] <edmoore> and also it means that everyone and their mum could reliable run, say, 300baud rtty
[18:46] <edmoore> on cloudy days
[18:47] <edmoore> during a storm
[18:47] <shellevil> The AFC was confused, and better results were gotten by manually following the tuning
[18:47] <shellevil> due to the FSK mismatch I think
[18:47] <edmoore> sticking with unmodded fldigi has its advantages
[18:47] <edmoore> we'll just have to reverse engineer the printed ascii into binary
[18:48] <edmoore> oh tits I'm going to miss hall
[18:48] <edmoore> bbiab
[18:50] <jcoxon> i'm just not sure the added complexity is of use overall
[18:51] <jcoxon> yes the system doesn't work below 2000m but thats due to issues with LOS
[18:51] <jcoxon> and you can't use the system in isolation - one team needs to be chasing with a yagi
[18:55] <jcoxon> but i'm happy to adapt the client to dump all the data
[18:55] <jcoxon> (on a command arg)
[18:55] <jcoxon> so that we can do further work on the server
[18:55] <jcoxon> edmoore, (when you get back) need to speak to rob about the server side
[18:56] <jcoxon> bbl
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[19:24] <Hiena> Another successfull flight and failed attempt t log...
[19:26] <edmoore> jcoxon: back
[19:26] <edmoore> "yes the system doesn't work below 2000m but thats due to issues with LOS" that's just the thing
[19:26] <edmoore> it's not that binary
[19:27] <edmoore> it's just the SNR rapidly drops beneath line of site, and that's where error correction comes into its own
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> well...
[19:27] <edmoore> I stand by that
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> Gonna need a whole lot of error correction if your signal is 10dB under the noise
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> Or 40dB
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> I'm not saying it's wrong.
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> ideally sync to GPS, add some spread-spectrum goodness, and you can get 30 or 40dB down.
[19:31] <edmoore> I think this sort of thing will be at its most useful for trans
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> there 10dB of fade margin is a big thing
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> I think that for 433, it's almost pointless - as I get the feeling - I should probably back this up with calculation :) - that 10dB might get you 2000m -> 1800m
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> Which isn't useless, but...
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> But going from 1000Km range to 2500 or 3000Km range is a huge thing.
[19:33] <edmoore> exactly
[19:33] <edmoore> hearing it on the ground too
[19:33] <edmoore> if something had to be done today and now, for me it'd be FEC from the balloon and decoding for it in the client
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[19:35] <SpeedEvil> I'd be wondering about something simple - either compress it to binary, and transmit three times.
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> Or stay largely with ascii, and add half again the amount of FEC.
[19:35] <edmoore> definitely the latter
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> I think that pretty much means ditching existing software, as you want the bitstream without RS232 framing
[19:36] <edmoore> suggestion (a) is BS, suggestion (b) is AS
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> as otherwise errors in the framing screw you
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> though I haven't investigated what plugins to fldigi can do.
[19:39] <edmoore> the raw data to the server suggestion was based on not having to fiddle with anything for the users
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - but FEC gets a hell of a lot harder if instead of a sane bytestream, you get random chars completely missing.
[19:40] <edmoore> sure
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[19:43] <Hiena> Well, seems like the gps only for "informal" purpose, because there is a severe lost in the telemetry.
[19:43] <edmoore> ?
[19:45] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[19:46] <edmoore> yo
[19:47] <jcoxon> so whats the general confusion - lost it in the various converstations streams
[19:47] <edmoore> nothing urgent. What would be good would be to have a look at everyone's raw fldigi logs of nova11 or the next flight
[19:48] <edmoore> then can have a look to see if some simple algorithm generates any better results
[19:48] <jcoxon> okay cool
[19:49] <jcoxon> i'll post my log
[19:49] <edmoore> i won't have a look at it before exams finish so no hurry
[19:49] <jcoxon> fair enough
[19:49] <jcoxon> there really isn't much salvagable data
[19:49] <jcoxon> well from a simple eyeballing it
[19:50] <edmoore> would be cool to have a look though
[19:50] <jcoxon> i'll work on fixing the other issues
[19:50] <edmoore> actually i could haver an eyeball right now if that's ok
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: I think most of it is shredded by framing errors.
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> 2/9ths or so of bit errors will hit a framing bit, which will break the next char
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> s/most/much
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> at least the next char
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[19:53] <jcoxon> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/data:nova11
[19:53] <edmoore> grand ta
[19:54] <edmoore> i think you're right SpeedEvil
[19:54] <edmoore> all or nothin
[19:55] <SpeedEvil> The only 'sort-of' solution I can think of is tiny packets - maybe 3 bytes - each containing some data
[19:55] <SpeedEvil> with FEC
[19:56] <SpeedEvil> so you send longitude and latitude degrees maybe once a minute, alt once a second, ...
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[19:57] <edmoore> It's probably too much hassle to implement anything unless fldigi itself can output a raw bitstream
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> pretty much
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> The gains are small
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> And then you run into the issue of hard vs soft decisions of course
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[21:58] <Laurenceb> hello
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[21:58] Action: Laurenceb is reading about AMSAT P3D
[21:59] <Laurenceb> pretty insane number of pcbs crammed in there
[22:09] <gordonjcp> I still reckon a sat based on a modernised AO-7 system would rock
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[22:44] Action: jcoxon has just installed Half Life 1 on wine :-)
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[23:05] <Laurenceb> hi Steve
[23:06] <Laurenceb> so your HF radio is GPS frequency corrected?
[23:15] <jcoxon> i'm not sure it is
[23:15] <Laurenceb> anyone watching bbc1?
[23:17] <jcoxon> whats on?
[23:18] <Laurenceb> they were at SSTL
[23:18] <jcoxon> oh right
[23:18] <Laurenceb> unfortunately no shots of me
[23:19] <Laurenceb> they had some receivers and were talking about earthquake detection
[23:19] <Laurenceb> my supervisior got onto the BBC this morning about the quake
[23:20] <Laurenceb> IMO its a bit harbrained, you could tell they were bullshitting on the news
[23:20] <jcoxon> how are SSTL linked to the quake?
[23:21] <Laurenceb> my supervisor claims GPS electron count measurements can predict quakes
[23:21] <Laurenceb> so he was straight onto them this moring
[23:21] <Laurenceb> - the BBC
[23:21] <jcoxon> weird
[23:22] <Laurenceb> yes, I wasnt there this morning, if I had been I'd have said it was a bit of a crazy idea to get the BBC round
[23:23] <Laurenceb> IMO its pretty much a crackpot idea, if there is a real effect I'm sure there would be other observables
[23:24] <Laurenceb> e.g. vertical E field and air ion count
[23:24] <Laurenceb> the whole GPS electron count theory is seemingly based on a few papers by a team in Tiawan
[23:26] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: N(t)=N(0)*exp(-t/lambda)
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[23:37] Nick change: jiffe33 -> jiffe1
[23:39] <shellevil> Does he have a hypothetical mechanism?
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[00:00] --- Tue Apr 7 2009