highaltitude.log.20090403

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[00:12] <Jcoxon> Evening all
[00:12] <Jcoxon> Payload retrieved?
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> not as reported
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> last signal at ~2.7Km
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> no signal from ground
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> though they've been around the predicted landing area a fair bit
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> maybe they'll be doing more searching tomorrow, when it gets light.
[00:13] <Jcoxon> Oh no
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> Seemed to accellerate downwards in the last few seconds
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> maybe somethign up with the parachute
[00:14] <Jcoxon> Yeah, badger must of died on impact as you'd think they'd get a peep from it
[00:15] <SpeedEvil> I think that given the proper shift on the radio, if I'd have managed to track it properly, I could have gotten closer to 2.7K - at the end it was shooting up in frequency, and I flubbed the calculation of a new frequency when typing it in.
[00:15] <SpeedEvil> Now I've found the keys, it'll be easier (pgup/down for +-100Hz
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> The AFC wasn't keeping it in the right spot - as well as it can be done manually - with the abnormal shift
[00:16] <Jcoxon> Oh thats cool, didn't know that
[00:16] <Jcoxon> Did you enjoy tracking?
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> Interesting.
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> I hadn't realised quite how drifty these things can be.
[00:17] <Jcoxon> Yeah. I'm wondering if we could hack up the code a bit
[00:18] <Jcoxon> Get it to scan up and down till the afc finds the signal
[00:20] <Jcoxon> Right i better be off. Got a lot of driving to do tomorrow. Am away this weekend so have a good weekend
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> Wave.
[00:20] <Jcoxon> Night all
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[00:20] <SpeedEvil> Given the input bandwidth, and FFT, you should really be able to scan 3KHz/second easily
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[02:40] <fergusnoble> anyone still up?
[02:41] Action: natrium_ Zzz
[02:41] <natrium_> :D
[02:41] <fergusnoble> natrium_: hello
[02:41] <natrium_> hi fergus
[02:43] <natrium_> it's not even 10 pm :P
[02:43] <natrium_> bbl tea
[02:45] <fergusnoble> its 2:45am hr
[02:45] <fergusnoble> *here
[02:46] <fergusnoble> was my finds birthday tonight so had to leave the ballooning funearly
[02:48] <shellevil> me sort-of is.
[02:48] <shellevil> up in the in-bed-with-laptop sense
[02:52] <fergusnoble> am also up in the in bed with laptop sense
[02:52] <fergusnoble> shellevil: sucks they didnt find it
[02:52] <shellevil> :/
[02:53] <shellevil> going back for a wander around in daylihgt?
[02:53] <fergusnoble> i think they are
[02:53] <fergusnoble> im down in devon
[02:53] <fergusnoble> so im just doing what i can over the interwebs
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[06:06] <natrium42> hi edmoore
[06:06] <natrium42> you're up early
[06:09] <edmoore> yes
[06:09] <edmoore> going to look for the thing
[06:10] <natrium42> ah, good luck
[06:10] <natrium42> hope you find it
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[07:56] <edmoore> rjharrison: found it
[07:57] <natrium42> yay
[07:57] <natrium42> how did you find it?
[07:59] <edmoore> ran the best sims we could based on tracker telem
[07:59] <edmoore> then got up at sunrise
[07:59] <edmoore> and split into search teams
[07:59] <edmoore> got a call from rob after 20 mins of searching
[08:00] <natrium42> awesome :)
[08:00] <natrium42> any idea why it turned off yet? hard impact?
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[08:04] <edmoore> natrium42: not sure
[08:04] <edmoore> i think so
[08:04] <edmoore> the log stops at 250m
[08:05] <edmoore> still descending
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[08:42] <rjharrison> CUSF have recoverd their balloon
[08:42] <icez> woot
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[09:57] <shellevil> :)
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[10:45] <SpeedEvil> :)
[10:45] <SpeedEvil> Payload much damaged?
[10:45] <edmoore> not actually too bad
[10:45] <edmoore> though the gps antenna came off
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[11:19] <AlexBreton> hi all
[11:20] <AlexBreton> got 24 free Ultimate Lithium AA batteries!!!!!!!!
[11:21] <EI5GTB> cool
[11:21] <EI5GTB> wxwpt i need 25
[11:21] <EI5GTB> exept*
[11:23] <AlexBreton> lol
[11:23] <AlexBreton> 24 is more than enough for us ;-)
[11:26] <EI5GTB> free is a good price
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[11:59] <jcoxon> Hey all
[12:00] <jcoxon> out of interest where was badger found?
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[12:22] <sbasuita> Has Nova been found?
[12:25] <SpeedEvil> yes
[12:25] <SpeedEvil> found early this morning after 20 mins searching near the location based on best predictions.
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[12:45] <sbasuita> Has anybody got a lassen iq pinout handy?
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[15:32] <sbasuita> Yay! Got the GPS forwarding co-ordinates through the arduino over usb to my terminal :)
[15:32] <SpeedEvil> :)
[15:32] <SpeedEvil> I guess you figured out the pinout then
[15:32] <sbasuita> SpeedEvil, yes, we found diagrams hidden in the appendix of the documentation
[15:32] <sbasuita> SpeedEvil, scrapped natrium42's cable though - it's all breadboard at the moment
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> breadboard can work, as long as yuou know its limitations.
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> Specifically - gets unreliable over time - especially if you force too-large pins in, or hot pins - transistors that heat up - and each adjacent track has 10pF cap to every other track
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> and heavy of course.
[15:48] <sbasuita> More yay! We just got the camera to take a photo by doing nothing but short two contacts :D
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[16:12] <SpeedEvil> :)
[16:12] <SpeedEvil> Sometimes, crossing the streams works!
[16:17] <sbasuita> SpeedEvil, it also turns on/off, focuses, and zooms : )
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> If you want the flash to work properly, you'll need to install a bigger one for 20Km range.
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[18:04] <Laurenceb> hello
[18:04] <Laurenceb> payload recovered?
[18:04] <shellevil> yes
[18:05] <Laurenceb> cool, photos?
[18:05] <edmoore> be patient
[18:05] <shellevil> they went out this morning, and through drifts of snow went searching for the payload. Found after 20 minutes.
[18:05] <edmoore> contracts 'n' that
[18:05] <shellevil> (some of that may be imaginary)
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[18:20] <Laurenceb> where was it then?
[18:20] <Laurenceb> ditch?
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[18:24] <Laurenceb> hi hallam
[18:24] <hallam> hey
[18:25] <Laurenceb> arg
[18:25] <Laurenceb> adaptive modules are out of stock of etiny modules
[18:26] <Laurenceb> and they arent being made any more :-/
[18:26] <Laurenceb> they had offered to give me some free samples
[18:26] <Laurenceb> this sucks
[18:27] <Laurenceb> guess I could do my own pcb...
[18:28] <hallam> what's an etiny?
[18:28] <Laurenceb> chipcon cc1100 module
[18:29] <Laurenceb> - packet transponder on 434mhz
[18:29] <Laurenceb> theres the evaluation boards from Ti, but they arent as compact and dont have shielding
[18:30] <Laurenceb> sounds like Steves making some progress on the HF transmitter
[18:32] <Laurenceb> http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1258760-module-eval-cc1100-868mhz-cc1100emk-868.html
[18:34] <Laurenceb> http://chipcontools.com/Products/MXR-CC1100.htm
[18:34] <edmoore> Laurenceb: 52.2805N, 0.15175E
[18:34] <Laurenceb> hmm looks like theres probably a few options
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[18:35] <Laurenceb> cool
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[18:46] <SpeedEvil> Hmm. 500m from my first WAG
[18:46] <edmoore> WAG?
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> Wild Assed Guess
[18:46] <edmoore> that's pretty much where we simmed to based on the final 2 data points my station caught
[18:47] <edmoore> I'm glad i left it running. It saved our bacon
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> based on the assumption that it was carrying on falling at 10m/s and going west at 2m/s
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> Or so
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> :)
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> Any angry landowners?
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> Is the data coming off OK?
[18:47] <edmoore> data is fine
[18:47] <edmoore> though stops at 250m ASL
[18:47] <hallam> how smashed is it - I take it the battery is what died?
[18:47] <edmoore> assume it hit the deck (hard) shortly after
[18:48] <edmoore> I assume so
[18:48] <edmoore> it actually looks fine externally
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> do you 'sync' the data, or may it be buffered?
[18:48] <edmoore> just hard enough landing to knock it out
[18:48] <edmoore> the only thing seperate is the gps antenna
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> And might there be more data - assuming FAT - on the card not linked to the file?
[18:48] <edmoore> have not checked
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> look wiht a sector editor after the end of the file - if you care enough
[18:49] <hallam> the last 250m of data probably isn't that vital
[18:49] <edmoore> it's in the IfM
[18:49] <edmoore> I am not
[18:49] <edmoore> will dd it off when I have a chance
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> hallam: no - I was idly wondering.
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> hallam: It's something that I wouldn't have thought of immediately - that you need to be prepared for battery fail at any time - and get as much data out as you can
[18:50] <hallam> guess so
[18:50] <edmoore> the payload wasn't the most integrated and robust thing we've ever flown. We can certainly improve robustness for hard landings
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> ATM I'm pretty much lurking so that I don't make any of these mistakes on my first launch :)
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> I plan on new and exciting mistakes!
[18:50] <edmoore> it should be able to survive more of a bash than that at any rate
[18:51] <hallam> the weak link was probably the battery molex
[18:51] <SpeedEvil> new and exciting - flammable lift gasses, ...
[18:51] <hallam> why not go for ammonia and have it toxic as well? :)
[18:51] <SpeedEvil> Ammonia + latex = teh bad. I think.
[18:52] <hallam> CO is lighter than air too
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> ATM I'm idly wondering about a two stage device. A large latex, that hauls a packed foil ZP above the turbulence, and in smooth air opens a valve between the two, inflating the foil.
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> I suspect the numbers don't work on inflation pressure though.
[18:54] <edmoore> neat idea
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> avoids all the nasty metal fatigue possibilities of launching through the turbosphere with a silly balloon.
[18:55] Action: SpeedEvil suspects that's not the correct term for 'layers of the atmosphere that experience turbulence'.
[18:57] <edmoore> windysphere
[18:57] <edmoore> crap-o-sphere
[18:57] <edmoore> nothing-to-sphere-but-sphere-itself
[18:57] <hallam> groan
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> sphere-is-the-little-death-sphere-is-the-mind-killer?
[19:06] <EI5GTB> http://paulsnet.org/van/antenna/DSC_3539.JPG what d'yall think of my antenna?
[19:06] <EI5GTB> i dont have it installed yet, just looking for a few comments before i get the drill out
[19:07] <hallam> nice - what wavelength is it for?
[19:07] <SpeedEvil> back one?
[19:08] <EI5GTB> yea, the back one
[19:08] <EI5GTB> 1/4 wave on 2m
[19:12] <hallam> going to have something for 70cm as well?
[19:12] <hallam> or a dualband
[19:13] <EI5GTB> naw
[19:13] <EI5GTB> no point
[19:13] <EI5GTB> no 70cm activity here at all
[19:14] <EI5GTB> i could put a 2/70 whip on it, maybe sometime..
[19:14] <hallam> there might be if you start flying balloons...
[19:14] <EI5GTB> heh
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> yagi, 2 axis mount, job done.
[19:15] <EI5GTB> the IAA recently told me to go to met eirean for baloon permission
[19:15] <EI5GTB> go figure...
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> EI5GTB: diddn't it go the other way at first?
[19:15] <EI5GTB> nope
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> ah, thought you approached them first.
[19:15] <EI5GTB> naw
[19:16] <EI5GTB> the IAA told me they contacet the met office, but i have heard nothing
[19:16] <EI5GTB> its time to get the fans and make a shitstorm
[19:18] Action: SpeedEvil sighs at the internet.
[19:18] Action: SpeedEvil had a very disturbing image at that.
[19:18] <EI5GTB> hahahah
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_dance + internets. Probably with mosaic obscuration involved.
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> Made in japan of course
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[19:24] <EI5GTB> ...
[19:25] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz3-Ow2HHwg - entirely worksafe
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[19:44] <Tigga> gah
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[20:32] <SpeedEvil> What was that balloon store?
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[20:38] <SpeedEvil> We're missing a trick. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GIANT-ADVERTISING-HELIUM-SIGN-INFLATABLE-BLIMP-BALLOON_W0QQitemZ200326903740QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item200326903740&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1688|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
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[20:42] <SpeedEvil> 'In 1784, Jean-Pierre Blanchard fitted a hand-powered propeller to a balloon, the first recorded means of propulsion carried aloft. In 1785, he crossed the English Channel with a balloon equipped with flapping wings for propulsion, and a bird-like tail for steerage.'
[20:42] <SpeedEvil> Hardcore
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[21:48] Nick change: RocketBoy -> G8KHW_Away
[21:49] <G8KHW_Away> BBL
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[22:00] <edmoore> evening hallam
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[22:12] <hallam> hi edmoore
[22:12] <hallam> just tarting up the old c.v.
[22:12] <hallam> how are you?
[22:12] <edmoore> not bad
[22:12] <edmoore> might get an early night
[22:12] <edmoore> had 2 consecutive v early starts
[22:12] <hallam> Well done on finding the payload. Must have been a relief.
[22:13] <edmoore> gosh yes
[22:14] <edmoore> we were about 1km off on the predictions aswell until I sptted that google maps had a different location for a specific set of co-ordinates than did google earth
[22:14] <edmoore> (very odd, yes)
[22:14] <edmoore> well, the predictor did anyway
[22:14] <hallam> wow, good catch
[22:14] <edmoore> so we shifted the predicted landing spot in the appropriate direction
[22:14] <edmoore> and it was about 50m away from where we thought
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[22:20] <edmoore> hi djstillman
[22:21] <djstillman> hello there edmoore :)
[22:21] <edmoore> all well?
[22:22] <djstillman> indeed! Is this the high altitude balloon hangout?
[22:22] <edmoore> correct!
[22:22] <edmoore> You're new around here?
[22:22] <djstillman> good to know, I'll be hanging around here for the next month and a half or so then.
[22:23] <djstillman> yup, looking to launch and recover a balloon, thought I'd hang around and see what I can learn from y'all
[22:23] <edmoore> fantastic
[22:23] <edmoore> where are you based?
[22:23] <djstillman> northern california, US
[22:23] <hallam> nice location - watch out for the mountains!
[22:24] <hallam> this channel is mainly, but not exclusively, UK
[22:24] <sbasuita> Hmm... looks like the /topic needs an update
[22:25] <edmoore> that's true
[22:25] <hallam> djstillman: what stage are you at - do you have hardware?
[22:25] <edmoore> djstillman: not to worry though, physics knows no geographical boundaries. although radio licenses do.
[22:25] <djstillman> I was wondering if the air is all that different in the UK ;)
[22:26] <hallam> edmoore: interesting that, since radio waves don't...
[22:26] <djstillman> hallam: I've got a gumstix verdex from another project I am considering "borrowing" from, as well as the GPS daughtercard that goes with it
[22:26] <edmoore> djstillman: you'll want to talk to jcoxon when he comes on
[22:26] <edmoore> he's the gumstix queen
[22:26] <sbasuita> djstillman, what are you hoping to do with the flight?
[22:27] <djstillman> Launch and recover, first and foremost. My partner in crime is a wifi nerd, and we were discussing a long-range 802.11 connection
[22:28] <edmoore> if you could get a link to a balloon on wifi then you'd have a lot of people very very very interested
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> It's not really hard
[22:28] <edmoore> assuming it didn't require a radio telescope on the ground
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> problem is the range is quite small
[22:28] <edmoore> ...
[22:28] <hallam> probably best to have a conventional radio backup too
[22:28] <edmoore> very much agreed
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> I was looking at 1.2m dish on the bottom - IIRC the max range I got to an omni was ~3Km
[22:28] <djstillman> Yes, we are planning on a gsm/sms backup
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> Or was that a 2.4m dish
[22:29] <edmoore> conventintional radio on balloons is a pretty solved problem. I'd definitetly fly it in addition
[22:29] <djstillman> looking at these: http://www.ubnt.com/products/bullet.php
[22:29] <edmoore> djstillman: do you or your partner in crime have a ham radio license?
[22:29] <SpeedEvil> You're not going to get 30-200Km without a massive dish on the top
[22:29] <SpeedEvil> djstillman: meet Mr inverse square.
[22:30] <djstillman> edmoore: neither of us do, but I am quite interested in one
[22:30] <edmoore> I understand that, same as over here, the foundation/technicion class is very easy to get and opens a lot of doors
[22:30] <hallam> djstillman: gsm is useful but it's probably worth having something else too, in case it lands outside a coverage area - which I guess in rural CA is quite possible
[22:30] <djstillman> and doesn't require morse code, IIRC
[22:30] <hallam> yup
[22:31] <edmoore> it is not really necessary though - we (CU spaceflight) got by without one between us for several years
[22:31] <edmoore> however we then just booked all three exams in quick succession and got our full licenses. Other hams start talking to you when you get that.
[22:32] <djstillman> I've got my feelers out in the local radio community - I'm from a rather smallish (80k) town, and it seems like a close-knit community
[22:32] <djstillman> my background: I'm a software nerd, not necessarily a radio nerd
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[22:33] <SpeedEvil> It's not hard
[22:33] <edmoore> djstillman: perfect then
[22:33] <djstillman> I know basic electronics, and it seems like that is half the battle
[22:33] <edmoore> the hardware stuff isn't too tricky on balloons, but it's a great physical project too
[22:33] <edmoore> it's really just a computer in a box, and you tie a balloon to the box
[22:34] <edmoore> I say that after having written several ranty emails today about systems design and redundancy. But conceptually it's all pretty straightforward
[22:36] <icez> hard part tends to be getting the payload back :P
[22:36] <edmoore> yeah thanks for that
[22:37] <edmoore> (djstillman: we were up at sunrise today doing a visual search for a payload we launched yesterday)
[22:37] <edmoore> had a total onboard power failure after a pretty tough landing
[22:37] <sbasuita> edmoore, has cu not looked at any alternate comms? (ie. gsm)
[22:37] <djstillman> oh, bummer. what were/are you using to track it?
[22:37] <edmoore> sbasuita: yes
[22:38] <edmoore> but if you have a total power failure, that is irrelevant
[22:38] <edmoore> we fly gsm quite a lot
[22:38] <sbasuita> edmoore, not if you're using a normal phone
[22:38] <sbasuita> with its own battery
[22:38] <edmoore> but then how do you get the landing co-ordinates?
[22:39] <sbasuita> edmoore, ah, right
[22:39] <edmoore> the tracking serves are not that accurate, especially in this part of the world
[22:39] <sbasuita> x D
[22:39] <edmoore> djstillman: we have a 434mhx radio onboard transmitting the telemetry
[22:39] <edmoore> and a suitable reciever listing in for it
[22:39] <edmoore> infact, we had several listening stations around the country
[22:40] <edmoore> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/track/
[22:40] <edmoore> ignore the one obviously false data point
[22:43] <edmoore> djstillman: we use free multi-platform software (fldigi) to decode the telemetry
[22:43] <edmoore> the telemetry uses standard amatuer digital transmission modes (radio teletype, to be specific)
[22:44] <edmoore> it's just an audio cable from the receiver into the pc's soundcard
[22:44] <djstillman> what's the data rate, 9600?
[22:44] <edmoore> 50 :p
[22:44] <edmoore> (not a typo)
[22:45] <djstillman> heh, just enough, I guess. I didn't realize you could plug directly into a sound card.
[22:45] <edmoore> think the typing text on the screen you see in cold war movies
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> 50 is really plenty.
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> The effective datarate could easily be multiplied by several if we cared about it
[22:45] <edmoore> it's enough to tell you lat/long/alt/temps/other-sundried every 10 secs
[22:45] <edmoore> sundried, not sundried
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> binary, not decimal lat/lon, ...
[22:46] <edmoore> we don't fly tomatoes
[22:46] <edmoore> sundries**
[22:46] <edmoore> gosh, my fingers autopilot to sundried
[22:47] <natrium42> hmm, fly tomatoes...
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[22:47] <djstillman> dumb question, perhaps, but when you're tracking from the field (in a car, I assume), how do you get the google map to update?
[22:48] <edmoore> you can have a 3G connection to the internet
[22:48] <edmoore> or you can download all of google maps a bit naughtily and write your own mapping software
[22:48] <djstillman> Thought so, but us out here in Rural California...
[22:49] <edmoore> we often used to just cache the area around where we thought it would land on google earth
[22:49] <edmoore> (cuspaceflight.co.uk/predict)
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[22:50] <edmoore> a satnav also helps
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[22:51] <edmoore> we can easily add your location to the list of pre-defined launch sites if you'd like
[22:51] <sbasuita> natrium42, hi! We got your gps working today
[22:51] <Laurenceb> hello
[22:52] <natrium42> sbasuita, cool, good job
[22:52] <natrium42> ello aurence
[22:52] <djstillman> the actual launch site is still TBD, but I'll let you know asap, much appreciated
[22:52] <sbasuita> natrium42, alas, we were forced to pull apart your lovely cable to figure out the pinout :(
[22:52] Action: Laurenceb accidentally the volumising shampoo
[22:52] <djstillman> edmoore: how often does cu launch?
[22:52] <edmoore> depends on degree workload :)
[22:52] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, don't you just hate it when that happens?!
[22:53] <edmoore> we've done two in the last two weeks
[22:53] <edmoore> but then nothing really for the term before that
[22:53] <Laurenceb> so the pools closed due to aids, sorry
[22:53] <edmoore> we did the 'teddies in space' launch in December
[22:53] Nick change: G8KHW_Away -> G8KHW
[22:53] <edmoore> fail
[22:54] <natrium42> sbasuita, that's fine, perhaps the best solution is to solder to the pins directly
[22:54] <natrium42> and use heatshrink tubing as insulation
[22:54] <sbasuita> natrium42, we've ordered some 'samples' of cable from the manufacturers of the pins
[22:54] <sbasuita> as recommended by the lassen iq manual
[22:54] <natrium42> ok
[22:54] <natrium42> just make sure it doesn't come off on hard landing
[22:55] <sbasuita> natrium42, duct-tape aplenty ;)
[22:55] <natrium42> lol
[22:56] <natrium42> i usually use hot glue
[22:57] <DanielRichman> How about a mix of both?
[22:57] <natrium42> hot glue is hot.
[22:57] <sbasuita> ahaha...ha...
[22:57] <sbasuita> ; P
[22:57] <sbasuita> natrium42, we actually thought of using hot glue to secure some wires in the camera
[22:57] <edmoore> DanielRichman: make sure your gps is secure, yes
[22:57] <Laurenceb> gorilla glue is good
[22:57] <edmoore> make sure everything is secure
[22:58] <edmoore> infact put it in an old box and throw it at the ground at about 12m/s
[22:58] <edmoore> and make sure it still works
[22:58] <Laurenceb> hehe
[22:58] <Laurenceb> try that with my rogallo :P
[22:58] <edmoore> we used up all the 'finding the dead payload' karma for about 2 years, I'm afriad
[22:59] <Laurenceb> edmoore: did NOVA11 have GSM?
[22:59] <edmoore> no
[22:59] <edmoore> it would not have helped
[22:59] <edmoore> I am sounding like a broken record here
[22:59] <edmoore> everyone is fixated with GSM
[23:00] <sbasuita> I've heard people say it was unreliable, but nobody has yet offered an explanation...
[23:00] <edmoore> it's not unreliable
[23:00] <edmoore> it just is no use in a single-point-failure system
[23:00] <edmoore> and not everywhere has mobile signal
[23:00] <edmoore> although that's increasingly less the case
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> In the UK
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> Where now the market for mobile phones has saturated, they're now selling them to cows.
[23:01] <edmoore> if you have just a 1hz radio beacon with its own battery, everything else can fail and you can still find it in a 100mile x 100mile box quite easily
[23:02] <edmoore> without needing infrastructure
[23:02] <Laurenceb> yeah
[23:02] Action: SpeedEvil ponders mentioning roads.
[23:02] <Laurenceb> did you lose power?
[23:02] <edmoore> yep
[23:03] <edmoore> hit the ground pretty hard and turned off - I *think*
[23:03] <edmoore> everything died at pretty much the same time
[23:03] <edmoore> badger log stops just before the ground too
[23:03] <natrium42> edmoore, what kind of power connectors do you use?
[23:03] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, perhaps we could implement a circuit that detected power loss from the arduino and moved ntx2 control to a beacon?
[23:03] <edmoore> I have no idea - I had nowt to do with the integration of this payload
[23:04] <Laurenceb> http://www.51sunray.com/en/Product.asp?lmno=003001002&lmsjbh=003001
[23:04] <natrium42> ah, ok
[23:04] <edmoore> probably just molex though or something else unsecure
[23:04] <natrium42> i am thinking of switching to dean's connectors
[23:04] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, what good would that do?
[23:05] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, help us find it in event of power loss on landing
[23:05] <natrium42> using circular jacks atm
[23:05] <edmoore> natrium42: yeah. we used to use them on robot wars too
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> you're using AA batteries? edmoore
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: won't they shift in the battery holders if you smack it?
[23:05] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: a lithium camera battery on this one
[23:05] <edmoore> 6v unit
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: oh
[23:05] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, what, you mean, just broadcast a frequency? How about detect power loss => activate buzzer?
[23:05] Action: Laurenceb uses lipo
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> buzzer is _SHORT_ range
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> 50m at best
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> and 10m more likely
[23:06] <DanielRichman> Hmm. How about flares?
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> radio will often work 1Km away
[23:06] <edmoore> it's useful for precisely that reason SpeedEvil
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: setting stuff on fire isn't good PR
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: sure. As an adjunct
[23:06] <edmoore> the signal meter is normally pegged to max if you're within 20m of it
[23:06] <edmoore> no matter what antenna you use
[23:06] <edmoore> so direction finding is harder
[23:06] <DanielRichman> Intresting idea though
[23:06] <edmoore> we've thought about smoke flares too
[23:06] <Laurenceb> we were pegged about 500m away
[23:07] <edmoore> just never did them as they are a bit messy
[23:07] <Laurenceb> with the rogallo, but it was in a tree :P
[23:07] <Laurenceb> hehe purple smoke or something
[23:07] <natrium42> rofl
[23:07] <natrium42> people will think it's a bomb for sure
[23:07] Action: Laurenceb calls in an air strike
[23:08] <edmoore> sbasuita , DanielRichman : in the spirit of KISS, a second radiometrix on a different frequency would probably be better
[23:08] <edmoore> with its own aerial
[23:08] <edmoore> can be any old aerial really - you just want to know wether it's there or not
[23:09] <DanielRichman> Perhaps an aerial on top of the payload, because if the normal aerial lands downwards and gets smothered...
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> maybe a 555 too
[23:09] <edmoore> DanielRichman: exactly
[23:09] <DanielRichman> If you put a 555 in your payload it will never ever fail.
[23:09] <edmoore> djstillman: have you come across James Coxon's website?
[23:09] <Laurenceb> I'm looking for CC1100 modules... again
[23:10] <djstillman> edmoore: not by name /googles
[23:10] <edmoore> djstillman: www.pegasushabproject.org.uk
[23:11] <edmoore> he uses gumstixs
[23:11] <djstillman> I just came across that, and am pretty overwhelmed. every question in my head is being answered here so far :)
[23:11] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, where we going to get a second ntx2 from?
[23:12] <edmoore> djstillman: it's a hell of a learing curve initially
[23:12] <edmoore> but good fun :)
[23:13] <djstillman> most of the learning for me will be with the radios I have a feeling. I just looked up coverage maps in the launch area, and it looks sparse
[23:13] <djstillman> and by the looks of those teddy bears, I can tell it's good fun!
[23:13] <Tigga> edmoore: I still don't see why GSM wouldn't have given us data points lower down than the last radio oen
[23:13] <Tigga> sure it wouldn't have worked on the ground
[23:13] <edmoore> well with one of our little license-free 10mW units, we've got ~500km at 50 baud without too much difficulty or expertise
[23:14] <Tigga> (I'm trying not to be fixated :P)
[23:14] <edmoore> Tigga: it takes about 30+ secs to re-aquire a lock
[23:14] <edmoore> a cell tower, even
[23:14] <Tigga> aah
[23:14] <Laurenceb> I've had it work with an ericsson phone
[23:14] <edmoore> and we tend to get nothing after 1km
[23:14] <Laurenceb> acquired a lock about 200m off the ground
[23:15] <Laurenceb> then lost it when it landed
[23:15] <Laurenceb> ~8m/s descent
[23:15] <G8KHW> LaurenceB - I got an email from adaptive Modules to say they weren't selling the eTiny any more and were in the process of taking it off their website
[23:15] <Laurenceb> me too hehe
[23:16] <Laurenceb> looking for other sourses now
[23:16] <G8KHW> this was after In asked about the conformance
[23:16] <Laurenceb> theres a chinese site but its a bit dodgy
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> And quantity is in containers.
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> :)
[23:17] <hallam> I wonder why they're withdrawing it, some patent thing?
[23:17] <Laurenceb> maybe not selling many
[23:17] <Laurenceb> its been around for a while
[23:17] <G8KHW> na ETSI EN 300 220-3 compience methinks
[23:17] <Laurenceb> yeah maybe
[23:17] <G8KHW> (or rather non complience)
[23:18] <Laurenceb> grr this is annoying... I want somewhere thats not in china
[23:18] <Laurenceb> the Ti eval boards are expensive and rather large
[23:18] <hallam> do we have to comply with that, or is it only for commercial products?
[23:18] <G8KHW> no its blanket complience
[23:18] <edmoore> Tigga: so the flight computer only tries to send texts every minute too
[23:19] <G8KHW> modules already have it (e.g. radiometrix)
[23:19] <Tigga> yeah - that's not really good enough if you want to catch it while it's falling
[23:19] <edmoore> so basically you'd have to get a combination of re-lock at 200m (as laurence says) and the flight computer trying to send something. it's possible
[23:19] <edmoore> but you'd only have a few second window for those two events to both occur
[23:19] <Laurenceb> yeah, I was fairly lucky
[23:19] <hallam> so homebuilt ham transmitters don't have to comply, but you do if you want to use the licence-free spectrum?
[23:20] <Tigga> you can't send a signal on re-lock?
[23:20] <edmoore> what signal?
[23:20] <G8KHW> hallam:correct
[23:20] <hallam> could you test for compliance yourself or does it have to be certified by some expensive lab?
[23:21] <Tigga> phone says to flight computer "oooh - I can communicate". Flight computer says: "that's nice, I'm off the ground and falling so now might be a useful time to send a text"
[23:21] <Tigga> I really don't know if that's possible
[23:21] <hallam> (thinking of homebuilt 868MHz stuff)
[23:21] <edmoore> phone doesn't generally communicate that info to flight computer. but I guess it depends on make and stuff
[23:21] <G8KHW> hallam: I suspect U need a lab - but I don't know 4 sure
[23:21] <edmoore> the gsm modules might be able to
[23:21] <Laurenceb> yeah IIRC theres AT commands for it
[23:21] <shellevil> phone does - if you ask it
[23:22] <G8KHW> (otherwise anyone could do ETSI EN 300 220-3)
[23:22] <Laurenceb> yeah actually I did that on the ericsson
[23:22] <shellevil> there are AT commands usually for unsolicited annouces too
[23:22] <Laurenceb> you can get the mast in dBm
[23:22] <Laurenceb> forgotten the AT command but you could look it up
[23:22] <edmoore> useful :)
[23:22] <Laurenceb> typically around -90
[23:24] <edmoore> the 6310 we often use takes quite a while to re-aquire lock compared to the more modern ones I've had since
[23:24] <shellevil> I think it's provider dependant too
[23:24] <edmoore> once I come out of some signal-less place
[23:24] <G8KHW> hallam: A quick intrennet search shows ETSI EN 300 220 accredited test labs - so it looks like you need accreditation
[23:24] <hallam> ok so let's say the flight computer keeps requesting the phone to send SMS messages until it impacts and dies
[23:25] <hallam> G8KHW: thanks. bummer.
[23:25] <edmoore> you may get a buffered one in there
[23:25] <edmoore> but the phone often dumps the buffer
[23:25] <edmoore> again make dependant
[23:26] <edmoore> otherwise james would have got like 120 text messages when his phone came back down with the payload
[23:26] <G8KHW> hallam: I think you can see why - just to stop people making crappy interferacnce producing modules
[23:27] <hallam> sure, it makes sense
[23:27] <G8KHW> hallam: The ham radio bands are the best place to experiment - just the UK rules don't allow you to fly it
[23:27] <hallam> I really hope OfCom can be persuaded to change that
[23:27] <G8KHW> hallam: The potential to cause widespread interference is seen to great
[23:28] <G8KHW> thats the way they saw it when I takjed to them
[23:28] <hallam> doesn't seem to be a problem in the US... maybe Maxwell's laws are different there
[23:28] <G8KHW> admitedly that was abiut 5 years ago
[23:28] <hallam> ah well - dinner time for me. Catch you guys later!
[23:28] <G8KHW> maybe its a bit bigger
[23:29] <edmoore> So I were Chatting to Carlos Eavis on monday. He reckoned we'd have better luck getting somewhere with an experimental research permit (rather than an NOV) and was going to have a look into it
[23:29] hallam (i=126f3681@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7c292783710efc54) left irc: "mibbit.com: foooood"
[23:29] <Laurenceb> hmf theres got to be someone selling chipcon modules
[23:30] <shellevil> SIMs with 1000 texts are cheap now
[23:30] <G8KHW> edmoore:There is an experimental licence - one of the rocket guys got one for transmitting TV from a rocket
[23:31] <G8KHW> I think its about £100 a year
[23:31] <edmoore> we could probs cope with that. For a year at least
[23:31] <G8KHW> worth investigating
[23:32] <edmoore> Martlet could do with something a bit more manly anyway
[23:32] <shellevil> http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/shop/mobile-phones/price-plans/pay-as-you-go/
[23:32] <G8KHW> James McFarlen was the guy
[23:32] <shellevil> 1000 free textd
[23:32] <G8KHW> (the gyrock guy)
[23:32] <edmoore> cool. May drop him an email
[23:34] <sbasuita> shellevil, whoa! Great link : D
[23:34] <Laurenceb> hmm
[23:34] <Laurenceb> http://www.axsem.com/web/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=63&Itemid=74
[23:34] <Laurenceb> thats actually better than chipcon
[23:38] <Laurenceb> http://www.sequoia.co.uk/components/product.php?d=3&c=38&f=40&p=602&fmt=grid
[23:38] <Laurenceb> yummy :P
[23:43] <edmoore> this just made me snort ornage juice all over my laptop http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1186995&cid=27447187
[23:47] Action: Laurenceb doesnt get it
[23:49] <edmoore> I think you either do or you don't
[23:49] <Laurenceb> hmm £240 is a lot
[23:49] <Laurenceb> but you get 4 modules
[23:50] <Laurenceb> anyone interested in 2 tranceivers?
[23:50] Action: djstillman looks up
[23:52] <Laurenceb> its annoying theres so many sites selling this sort of stuff
[23:53] <shellevil> Interested - but not at 60 quid!
[23:54] <shellevil> 6, and fine, maybe
[23:54] <Laurenceb> yeah grrr
[23:54] <Laurenceb> someones got to be selling something useable at a decent price
[23:54] <Laurenceb> maybe I should email the dodgy chinese guys
[23:55] <Laurenceb> oh screw it look what I found http://www.e2v.com/products/electron-devices-and-sensors/argus-thermal-imaging-cameras.cfm
[00:00] --- Sat Apr 4 2009