highaltitude.log.20090401

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[00:58] <shellevil> hello
[00:59] <Laurenceb> hi shellevil
[00:59] <shellevil> hi
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[01:03] <Laurenceb> edmoore: parafoil instability at high altitude, is it caused by oscillatory modes in the parafoil?
[01:03] <edmoore> no
[01:03] <Laurenceb> as that sort of behaviour will be better damped at lower altitudes
[01:03] <edmoore> added mass effect
[01:03] <edmoore> or lack of
[01:04] <shellevil> And I was commenting that surely if the ratio of the mass of the chute to the air is constant - there shouldn't be an issue
[01:04] <Laurenceb> added mass effect?
[01:04] <shellevil> Is this just a manufacturing impossibility thing?
[01:05] <shellevil> (double air pressure, and a fabric with double the areal density will behave similarly)
[01:05] <edmoore> sometimes called apparent mass depending on whether or not you are american
[01:05] <Laurenceb> I see
[01:05] <shellevil> Or is it considerably more subtle than I'm thinking.
[01:05] <Laurenceb> hmm but if we have the same dynamic pressure on the chute..?
[01:06] <shellevil> IAS and TAS are only effectively the same for rigid or near-rigid bodies AIUI
[01:06] Action: Laurenceb wikipedia
[01:07] <edmoore> Laurenceb: Re is important too
[01:07] <Laurenceb> hmm ok... seems to be the same effect I was considering when I said ocillatory mode damping
[01:07] <Laurenceb> yeah
[01:07] <shellevil> indicated airspeed - the pitot pressure equivalent to a sea-level flight at the same point
[01:07] <shellevil> hmm
[01:07] <Laurenceb> so if we open an parafoil at the same dynamic pressure but lower density, what happens?
[01:08] <shellevil> very sub-mach assuming I suppose
[01:09] <Laurenceb> yes
[01:10] <Laurenceb> bbl
[01:12] <shellevil> I can't see it mattering at all to a rigid thing.
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[01:12] <shellevil> Or the static case, where everthing is fully inflated and rigidish
[01:12] <shellevil> but dynamics of fabric unfolding and stuff are going to vary quite a bit with the actual gas velocity
[01:18] <shellevil> Imagine a fag fluttering. The flutters go down it at more or less the wind speed - this won't change much with pressure - though the indicated air speed will change
[01:22] <shellevil> conversely, try inflating underwater, at 20mm/s not 20m/s
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[01:30] <shellevil> Oooh
[01:30] <shellevil> http://www.gadgettastic.com/2008/01/25/flying-camera-kinetic-energy-concept/
[01:31] Action: shellevil has to make me one of those
[01:31] <Laurenceb> I had one of those years ago
[01:31] <Laurenceb> - the camera
[01:31] <shellevil> they exist?
[01:31] <shellevil> oh
[01:32] <Laurenceb> there was a string operated spinnup mechanism
[01:32] <Laurenceb> you could get maybe 20m altitude
[01:32] <shellevil> yeah - I was assuming something like that
[01:32] <shellevil> add some weight to the tips.
[01:32] <Laurenceb> not nice if it gets you on the head
[01:32] <shellevil> But leaving the battery and motor on the ground has plusses
[01:33] <shellevil> as does the limited energy
[01:33] <shellevil> I suppose a rotor with a ring on it is pretty much mandatory
[01:33] <shellevil> Or just a catapult
[01:36] Action: shellevil ponders the longbow.
[01:40] <Laurenceb> me has a homemade longbow
[01:41] <Laurenceb> ~200m range
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[07:27] <Laurenceb> can anyone link me to the typeface used by hyperterminal?
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[07:58] <icez> terminal i think?
[07:58] <Laurenceb> nvm got it
[07:58] <akawaka> courier new?
[07:59] <Laurenceb> sorry, the character set
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[08:42] <rjharrison> Ji jcoxon
[08:42] <rjharrison> hi
[08:43] <rjharrison> jcoxon: thanks for running the tracker
[08:48] <jcoxon> hey rjharrison
[08:48] <jcoxon> np
[09:21] <Laurenceb> grr this is maddening
[09:21] <Laurenceb> http://www.mibbit.com/pb/0gzi5u
[09:22] <Laurenceb> it designed to reset my radio every so often
[09:22] <Laurenceb> instead it just jams up
[09:22] <Laurenceb> its not sending f, but is sending 0x05
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[10:05] <rjharrison> for some reason your data is not going into the positions table
[10:05] <rjharrison> I'll sort later
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[14:46] <rjharrison> natrium42: ping
[14:46] <rjharrison> ping Laurenceb
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[15:08] <Laurenceb> pong
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[17:33] <rjharrison> ping natrium42
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[17:34] <jcoxon> afternoon all
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[17:42] <Laurenceb> hello
[17:43] <jcoxon> hey Laurenceb
[17:44] <Laurenceb> I've been looking at optical mouse sensors
[17:44] <Laurenceb> you could do some cool stuff with them
[17:45] <Laurenceb> like an altimeter
[17:45] <jcoxon> how?
[17:46] <Laurenceb> stick a cctv cam lens on it
[17:46] <Laurenceb> then compare it with a gps and you can get altitude
[17:46] <Laurenceb> - below around 50m
[17:46] <Laurenceb> useful for landings
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[17:47] <rjharrison> ping natrium
[17:47] <jcoxon> haha
[17:47] <jcoxon> i was just about to
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[17:53] <jcoxon> bbiab
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[18:14] <shellevil> lau: it's also an attitude sensor
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[18:55] <natrium> jcoxon, you were looking for me?
[18:56] <jcoxon> hey natrium
[18:56] <jcoxon> yeah
[18:56] <natrium> hi
[18:56] <jcoxon> rjharrison was looking for the latest version of the tracker
[18:56] <jcoxon> we've been debugging the server and tracker
[18:56] <natrium> well, you have access to the server :)
[18:57] <natrium> we just play with it there directly
[18:57] <jcoxon> i can never remeber the password
[18:57] <natrium> i emailed it to you
[18:57] <jcoxon> is it okay if rjharrison can have access as well
[18:57] <jcoxon> oh
[18:57] <jcoxon> oops
[18:57] <natrium> yes, of course
[18:57] <jcoxon> found it
[18:57] <jcoxon> sorry
[18:57] <jcoxon> have you seen what we've added/
[18:57] <jcoxon> ?
[18:58] <jcoxon> http://maps.google.com/?q=http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/receivers.php&t=p
[18:58] <natrium> pretty cool, i didn't know google maps let you do that :)
[18:58] <jcoxon> so leave it running
[18:59] <jcoxon> and i'lll turn on my client
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[18:59] <natrium> ok
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[18:59] <jcoxon> now i think it self refreshes
[19:01] <jcoxon> hmmm perhaps not
[19:01] <jcoxon> it works in google earth at least
[19:01] <jcoxon> hehe
[19:01] <natrium> :)
[19:01] <natrium> nice
[19:02] <jcoxon> is there a chance you could use the latest dlclient and run it in sim mode for us
[19:02] <jcoxon> to get anther point on hte map?
[19:02] <natrium> actually i have to leave in 30 mins to toronto, sorry
[19:02] <jcoxon> oh okay
[19:02] <jcoxon> no worries
[19:02] <jcoxon> we'll find someone...
[19:03] <natrium> btw, venus sent me 3 chips without altitude limit
[19:03] <natrium> in other news, i set up a dialin server at syx66's place yesterdat
[19:03] <natrium> *yesterday
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[19:04] <natrium> going to use it to dial out with the iridium phone
[19:04] <jcoxon> ooo cool
[19:04] <jcoxon> hows the ham stuff going?
[19:06] Action: SpeedEvil ponders bacon. It's a sort of ham.
[19:07] <natrium> yes, bacon!
[19:08] <natrium> jcoxon, not really rushing with it :P
[19:08] <jcoxon> :-)
[19:08] <natrium> i need to launch iridium phone before rental on the helium tank runs out
[19:09] <natrium> bbl
[19:09] <natrium> going to buy a serial modem today to use for testing instead of iridium phone
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[19:40] <AlexBreton> dissecting my camera ;-)
[19:41] <AlexBreton> the one that will be on the balloon
[19:41] <jcoxon> careful with the capacitor
[19:41] <AlexBreton> idd
[19:42] <sbasuita> jcoxon, it's actually very good, because we've just pulled off the top section
[19:42] <sbasuita> jcoxon, all the other panels are intact
[19:42] <sbasuita> (apart from the fact we don't know which screws go back into them to keep them that way)
[19:42] <sbasuita> ; P
[19:42] <jcoxon> good work
[19:42] <AlexBreton> OK...I think I see the 2 contacts
[19:42] <jcoxon> the powershot A range are nice and modular
[19:42] <shellevil> AlexBreton: don't cross the streams!
[19:42] <AlexBreton> will take a pic and annotate on the computer
[19:43] <AlexBreton> the camera's off anyway
[19:43] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, gimp it up
[19:43] <AlexBreton> let me set up some lighting
[19:44] Action: sbasuita can't stop playing purple haze
[19:44] <jcoxon> shellevil, ghostbusters line?
[19:45] <AlexBreton> got scared in the tech lab
[19:45] <AlexBreton> we tested the camera with uncharged rechargable batteries
[19:45] <sbasuita> AlexBreton, stupid rechargeble battery crap
[19:45] <AlexBreton> it didn't work
[19:46] <sbasuita> that happenend to our rocket as well remember~?
[19:46] <shellevil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQvpK9cl0No
[19:46] <AlexBreton> and we thought something had broken ;-)
[19:46] <shellevil> (on-topic, not wibbling - balloon experiment)
[19:47] Action: shellevil wonders why that's not loading
[19:47] <sbasuita> shellevil, 90% annoying voices, 10% half an explosion
[19:47] <shellevil> I was wondering about hydrogen balloons.
[19:48] <AlexBreton> saw a nice april fool
[19:48] <AlexBreton> on french ews
[19:48] <AlexBreton> news*
[19:49] <AlexBreton> they were saying that wind turbines were slowing down the Earth's rotation
[19:49] <AlexBreton> which would lead to 25-hour days
[19:49] <AlexBreton> interviewed a clockmaker: 'Everything you have made so far is useless'
[19:54] <shellevil> It seems to me that latex balloons filled with hydrogen - unless you do something really stupid - fill it with >6% oxygen forex - are moderately safe.
[19:57] <shellevil> a puncture will rapidly transistion to a rapidly dissipating cloud of hydrogen, with the worst case being of the order of throwing around burning latex. obvious precautions such as remotely inflating the balloon from >5m away, and providing clothing that won't catch immediately on fire,
[19:57] <shellevil> and fire extinguishers would seem to make it as safe as - say - a bonfire
[19:59] <jcoxon> oh it indeed true
[19:59] <jcoxon> and hydrogen is cheaper and better
[20:00] <jcoxon> but it has a poor public perception
[20:00] <shellevil> And letting students get hold of it - when 'wouldn't it be cool if we did one with a little oxygen in...'
[20:00] <shellevil> and set it off in ....
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[20:01] Action: shellevil hates it when that happens.
[20:01] <shellevil> annoying touchpad
[20:03] <shellevil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OpgO3gMHG4 is a better one
[20:13] <gordonjcp> doesn't look too bad
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[20:23] <edmoore> evening all
[20:23] <sbasuita> edmoore, evening
[20:23] <edmoore> all well?
[20:24] <SpeedEvil> Mostly. Not fun day - but the worst is over.
[20:25] <edmoore> ?
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> Giving eulogies is never fun, especially not for your mum :/
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> Passed away earlier this month, not unexpectedly, but not expected that week.
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> I've just been using IRC to decompress over the last little bit.
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> Don't leave stuff unsaid. And now back to your regular lighter-than air fun.
[20:27] <edmoore> I'm very sorry to hear that
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> thanks.
[20:27] <edmoore> I was at my Grandad's funeral today too
[20:27] <edmoore> just got back
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> Sorry again.
[20:28] <edmoore> thanks. Never fun.
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> A decent crowd anyway - she taught biology for 20 years in glenrothes - everywhere we went people seemed to recognise her - often the worst kids had the fondest memories - even though they may have hated school in general.
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[20:44] <rjharrison> Evening all
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[20:51] <edmoore> jcoxon: can DL be modded to have a moving-car-listening-station mode?
[20:51] <jcoxon> sure
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[20:51] <jcoxon> what changes do you need?
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[20:52] <edmoore> well, in terms of having it running in the chase car
[20:52] <jcoxon> got gps?
[20:52] <rjharrison> I have had it runing in the chase car fine but it would be cool if it could pick up the current lat long from a gps
[20:53] <edmoore> fazackerly
[20:54] <edmoore> can dump the gps into a text file
[20:54] <rjharrison> would be cool if it just checked a file for lat and lon
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> bluetooth GPS ++
[20:54] <rjharrison> haha
[20:54] <edmoore> and client could grab the tail perhaps
[20:54] <edmoore> like now
[20:54] <jcoxon> yeah i have a tail function so i'm ready
[20:55] <rjharrison> will you just write lat,long to the file?
[20:55] <jcoxon> either i can tail a file or i can read the gps, up to you?
[20:55] <rjharrison> file is more portable I would guess
[20:55] <edmoore> would be easiest for us to just dump the nmea strings into a file
[20:55] <jcoxon> okay
[20:56] <edmoore> i.e. \dev\whatever_it_is\ > gpslog.txt
[20:56] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:56] <edmoore> no more complex than that
[20:56] <edmoore> maybe the client could do that
[20:56] <jcoxon> okay give me a couple of mins
[20:56] <rjharrison> just cat /dev/ttyUSB0 > /tmp/nmea
[20:57] <jcoxon> edmoore, if i wack something together now do you have the hardware around to test it?
[20:57] <rjharrison> I do
[20:57] <edmoore> sadly not
[20:57] <edmoore> i'm at home currently
[20:57] <rjharrison> do you want a test file jc
[20:58] <edmoore> getting back tomorrow only intime really for the launch itself
[20:58] <jcoxon> yeah a test file would be great
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[21:04] <jcoxon> edmoore, sorry to keep bothering about you, what time are you guys launching tomorrow?
[21:04] <edmoore> middayish
[21:04] <jcoxon> scrap the 'about'
[21:05] <edmoore> 12.00
[21:05] <jcoxon> hmmm okay
[21:05] <jcoxon> rjharrison, you may need to vnc for me
[21:05] <edmoore> it's only doing about 20km over the ground so i might see about staying in chu and getting the dl working
[21:06] <jcoxon> or if i'm super organised i could come to cambridge...
[21:06] <rjharrison> do we have any sample output from badger at the moment
[21:06] <edmoore> ukhas standard
[21:06] <jcoxon> i've got nova 10 radio output
[21:06] <rjharrison> ie you have filled in all the 0's
[21:06] <rjharrison> cool
[21:07] <jcoxon> edmoore, is this for linux? (the code that is)
[21:07] <edmoore> mac
[21:07] <edmoore> pyserial!
[21:08] <rjharrison> is there an abstration to the ports
[21:09] <rjharrison> or pass them in
[21:09] <jcoxon> oh i've got it worked out
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[21:25] <jcoxon_> damn serial port
[21:26] <edmoore> ?
[21:27] <jcoxon_> oh when you break them mac gets very upset
[21:27] <edmoore> this will be for linux too btw
[21:27] <edmoore> chase-eeeeee
[21:27] <jcoxon_> the problem is that cat /dev/tty.gps doesn't work for macs
[21:28] <jcoxon_> you need to engage the serial port somehow
[21:28] <jcoxon_> such as with kermit
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> Ah. Kermit.
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> There's a name from back in the day.
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[21:36] <jcoxon_> hmm i really don't want to use pyserial
[21:42] <rjharrison> ok go for a txt file
[21:43] <jcoxon_> its not that
[21:43] <jcoxon_> cat /dev/gps > gps.log doesn't work on mac
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> why not?
[21:44] <jcoxon_> i'm not sure
[21:44] <jcoxon_> okay here is what i'm doing
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> is /dev/gps real?
[21:44] <jcoxon_> i was using it as an example
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> k
[21:44] <jcoxon_> i've turned on my arduino and its sending data over the serial port
[21:44] <jcoxon_> (as a test)
[21:44] <jcoxon_> if i run kermit i can see the data
[21:45] <jcoxon_> if i run kermit and also cat i can see the data
[21:45] <jcoxon_> if i run cat i can't see any data
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> f,low control problems I guess
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[21:54] <jcoxon_> hmmm i'm going to need to grab a gps
[21:55] <DanielRichman> jcoxon_, I'm on ubuntu but in order to cat /dev/ttyUSB0 I have to use the stty program first, to set up baudrate etc. Want the command?
[21:56] <jcoxon_> DanielRichman, yeah i've used stty
[21:56] <jcoxon_> apart from baud rate what else are you adding
[21:56] <DanielRichman> stty -F /dev/ttyUSB0 cs8 115200 ignbrk -brkint -icrnl -imaxbel -opost -onlcr -isig -icanon -iexten -echo -echoe -echok -echoctl -echoke noflsh -ixon -crtscts
[21:56] <DanielRichman> bit of a beast
[21:56] <jcoxon_> okay give me one sec
[21:56] <DanielRichman> To be honest, I copied it from a wiki and tidied it up a bit. I can't tell you what each one means, but man can ;)
[21:57] <DanielRichman> jcoxon_, here's the page: http://www.arduino.cc/playground/Interfacing/LinuxTTY
[21:58] Action: jcoxon_ reaches for the Pegasus 1 gps
[22:00] <DanielRichman> jcoxon_, good luck getting it working - have to go.
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[22:04] <edmoore> jcoxon_, rjharrison : I will try and get the DL set up tomorrow
[22:05] <edmoore> maybe not for the car (it's not really going anywhere though, light winds) but ground station yes
[22:05] <jcoxon_> excellent
[22:05] <jcoxon_> i might have a car version done soon
[22:06] <edmoore> jcoxon_: got a chance to mess with GB4FUN on monday for the ISS link
[22:06] <edmoore> you *have* to see that thing
[22:06] <edmoore> it would be a dream facility for mobile balloon HQ
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> Does it have an integral helium cylinder, and a hatch on the roof?
[22:08] <edmoore> no but it could do
[22:08] <edmoore> it has auto az/el tracking and large plasma screens for map displays
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[22:08] <edmoore> lots of nice radios and pc screens
[22:08] <edmoore> and very very neatly done
[22:08] <edmoore> oh and heating, a fridge etc
[22:09] <jcoxon_> edmoore, it might be an idea to check that the DL client works on your MBP
[22:09] <jcoxon_> (the latest version)
[22:09] <edmoore> willdo
[22:09] <jcoxon_> while i'm around - can't promise i'll be here tomorrow
[22:09] <jcoxon_> got to go home - tis my mother's birthday
[22:09] <edmoore> uhuh
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> WAve.
[22:10] <jcoxon_> my laptop will be here though
[22:10] <edmoore> link me to latest?
[22:10] Action: SpeedEvil passes jcoxon_ some flowers.
[22:10] <jcoxon_> SpeedEvil, got to get a present me thinks, but flowers are appreciated :-D
[22:10] <jcoxon_> http://spacenear.us/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=dlistening:dlclient4.py.zip
[22:11] <edmoore> .zip for a py script!?
[22:12] <jcoxon_> no but it means you can download it direct
[22:12] <jcoxon_> instead of copy and paste
[22:16] <edmoore> jcoxon_: works for me
[22:16] <edmoore> i love textmate
[22:17] <jcoxon_> okay cool
[22:17] <jcoxon_> have you seen the new antenna icons and things?
[22:17] <jcoxon_> http://maps.google.com/?q=http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/receivers.php&t=p
[22:17] <edmoore> specifically the icons, yes
[22:17] <edmoore> is there other stuff`?
[22:17] <edmoore> icons are v cool
[22:17] <jcoxon_> and the little pop up boxes
[22:18] Action: jcoxon_ waits for the gps to get a lock
[22:18] <edmoore> who is in notts?
[22:19] <jcoxon_> no one
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[22:19] <edmoore> ah, two roberts
[22:19] <jcoxon_> its rob twice
[22:19] <edmoore> will that be integrated into a tracker for tomorrow?
[22:19] <edmoore> also, which tracker is hosting tomorrow - roberts?
[22:19] <jcoxon_> yes/no
[22:19] <jcoxon_> at present robert
[22:19] <jcoxon_> yeah
[22:20] <jcoxon_> however might be able to have them intergrated on google earth having 2 network links
[22:20] <edmoore> earth not maps?
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[22:20] <jcoxon_> the listener thing is a kml file network link
[22:21] <jcoxon_> and you can get a network link kml off the tracker page
[22:21] <jcoxon_> so if you run both you can see both on google earth
[22:21] <edmoore> ok cool
[22:21] <jcoxon_> (that said the kml on roberts tracker is being mysteriously weird
[22:21] <jcoxon_> )
[22:21] <jcoxon_> so something to fix
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[22:32] <jcoxon_> hmmm whats teh simplest way to convert nmea lon lat to decimal?
[22:32] <jcoxon_> in pseudo code
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[22:33] <shellevil> deg+(min/60)+(sec/3600)
[22:33] <shellevil> that look sane?
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[22:37] <shellevil> oh
[22:37] <shellevil> if(deg<0)deg+=180 first
[22:39] <rjharrison> ping natrium
[22:41] <jcoxon_> he went to torronto
[22:41] <edmoore> silly boy
[22:42] <jcoxon_> toronto
[22:43] <jcoxon_> *
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[22:47] <shellevil> jc: and of course, that's not right either - works for lat - not lon
[22:47] <shellevil> meh
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[22:49] <jcoxon_> shellevil, got some code
[22:49] <jcoxon_> no worries
[22:55] <jcoxon_> edmoore, got it working :-D
[22:56] <edmoore> awesome
[22:56] <jcoxon_> with pyserial
[22:56] <edmoore> :p
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[22:57] <jcoxon_> so you'll need to install that
[22:57] <edmoore> not a prob
[22:57] <edmoore> already is
[22:58] <jcoxon_> okay, if you restart the code it'll go back to the default in the log file
[23:00] <jcoxon_> and you need to have fldigi running
[23:00] <jcoxon_> but apart from that its easy!
[23:02] <jcoxon_> bbiab
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[23:57] <jcoxon_> ping rjharrison
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[23:57] <jcoxon_> hehe
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[23:58] <jcoxon_> ping rjharrison
[00:00] --- Thu Apr 2 2009