highaltitude.log.20090331

[00:24] <Laurenceb> clocks changing
[00:31] <shellevil> Alas, no.
[00:31] <shellevil> Well - that diddn't help.
[00:32] <shellevil> Mailing out cards inviting people to mums cremation. :/
[00:32] <shellevil> wibbling on IRC to decompress a bit.
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[05:04] Action: natrium42 fixes icez's internet connection
[05:05] <icez> it's not the net :(
[05:05] <icez> trying to setup xrandr on this laptop
[05:05] <icez> and it hates me
[05:05] <natrium42> ah
[05:06] <icez> it only detects my other monitor when I have no configuration file whatsoever :S
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[07:25] <natrium42> hey jcoxon
[07:25] <natrium42> i saw the ballasthalo page, good work
[07:25] <jcoxon> morning natrium42
[07:26] <jcoxon> hehe its only a list of components!
[07:26] <jcoxon> i also realised that a latex floater will be a great test of the DL system
[07:27] <jcoxon> rob has made quite a bit of progress with it: http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/loggers.php
[07:28] <natrium42> cool
[07:28] <natrium42> haha, is your radio setup in a forest? :P
[07:29] Action: natrium42 notices funny coordinates
[07:29] <jcoxon> ohi ts just rand
[07:29] <jcoxon> random coords
[07:29] <jcoxon> hows it going then?
[07:30] <natrium42> good
[07:30] <natrium42> i haven't worked much on the project the last week
[07:30] <jcoxon> fair enough
[07:30] <jcoxon> i did my exam yesterday
[07:30] <jcoxon> so am slightly more free
[07:30] <natrium42> reading the ham book, though
[07:30] <jcoxon> though i have more soon
[07:30] <jcoxon> natrium42, oh amazing
[07:31] <jcoxon> its really not a difficult exam to pass
[07:31] <natrium42> also got the altitude enabled sirfIII yesterday :)
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[07:31] <jcoxon> oh the one bill recommended
[07:32] <natrium42> yep
[07:32] <jcoxon> nice
[07:33] <jcoxon> anything about permission and things like that?
[07:34] <natrium42> nope
[07:34] <natrium42> let's plan for launch in US
[07:34] <natrium42> i.e. keep payload 12lb or under
[07:35] <natrium42> no permission required
[07:35] <natrium42> did you read the log with SteamAtom?
[07:35] <natrium42> it's funny why they added the padding to the ballast bottle
[07:36] <natrium42> apparently there is some rule about average density of payload XD
[07:36] <jcoxon> :-)
[07:36] <jcoxon> okay but can you launch near to canada
[07:37] <jcoxon> as you get a lot better js near were you are
[07:37] <natrium42> yes, Niagara Falls, NY
[07:37] <natrium42> or Buffalo, NY
[07:37] <natrium42> those are the closest
[07:38] <jcoxon> need to find a flight path that avoids canda
[07:38] <jcoxon> canada*
[07:39] <jcoxon> well at least one that goes straight out
[07:39] <jcoxon> also want to try and avoid built up areas such as New York etc
[07:39] <natrium42> well, hopefully we do get permission by the fall
[07:40] <natrium42> but yes, this is a concern for plan B :)
[07:40] <natrium42> i should get some sleep
[07:40] <natrium42> g'nite
[07:40] <jcoxon> night
[07:43] <jcoxon> right ordered the last few parts for the payload
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[09:09] <jcoxon> woohoo my lassen has arrived
[09:15] <shellevil> average sectional density I think, not density
[09:15] <shellevil> or maybe I'm remembering other rules
[09:20] <jcoxon> http://www.eoss.org/pubs/far_annotated.htm
[09:27] <shellevil> k
[09:40] <jcoxon> the connector on the lassen iq is tiny!
[09:40] <jcoxon> didn't realise how stupidly small it is
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[09:48] <jcoxon> morning mc-
[09:50] <mc-> morning jc
[09:50] <mc-> was just reading the EOSS link
[09:51] <jcoxon> oh yeah, quite helpful for people interested in launching in the US
[09:51] <mc-> so you have to avoid canada airspace?
[09:51] <jcoxon> well tis debatable
[09:51] <jcoxon> there was a launch last weekend of a zp that went a bit rogue when it failed to cutdown and it drifted into canadian airspace - they weren't too happy
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[09:52] <mc-> this ruins the fun for everyone else
[09:52] <jcoxon> its not all lost
[09:52] <jcoxon> its possible to get permission in canada - if we do we are home and dry
[09:52] <jcoxon> if not we can easily avoid canada
[09:53] <jcoxon> lots still to work out though - need to liase with various ATC and such
[09:53] <mc-> Canada seems to have the shortest path for the JS to get to Europe
[09:53] <jcoxon> yeah and the most JS
[09:54] <mc-> I know some people who were working on a large balloon in Toronto, shall I see how they got permission
[09:54] <jcoxon> yeah that would be great - perhaps they have a contact in the gov
[09:59] <mc-> I'll give it a try. I'm trying to set up irc on my phone, what is the freenode server name? irc.freenode?
[10:01] <jcoxon> irc.freenode.net
[10:01] <jcoxon> what phone do you have?
[10:01] <jcoxon> i use mIRGGI
[10:02] <mc-> it's a windows mobile phone
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[10:04] <mc-> I've got wmirc working, but zsirc.net is freeware
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[15:26] <jcoxon> afternoon
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[16:11] <sbasuita> natrium42, your GPS has arrived :)
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[16:18] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, gps is here; will take pics and post on blog when I find a fresh battery for the camera ; P
[16:19] <aLeXBrEtOn> nice
[16:20] <jcoxon> did you guys get a cable with the gps?
[16:20] <jcoxon> or do you have to play with the tiny connector?
[16:21] <sbasuita> jcoxon, i think natrium42 included a cable and antenna
[16:21] <jcoxon> oh cool
[16:21] <sbasuita> waiting for camera before i open it
[16:21] <jcoxon> lucky :-)
[16:21] <jcoxon> the connector is tiny
[16:25] <jcoxon> bbl
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[16:59] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[17:11] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[17:11] <jcoxon> you guys launching tomorrow
[17:11] <jcoxon> i hear rumours
[17:12] <edmoore> thurs I think currently
[17:13] <jcoxon> oh okay
[17:26] <jcoxon> whats the payload?
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[17:49] <rjharrison> Evening all
[17:49] hallam (i=12d6017f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a9ce2225b7502c42) joined #highaltitude.
[17:50] <rjharrison> Hi hallam
[17:50] <rjharrison> hallam: Did you launch the other day?
[17:51] <hallam> Hi rjharrison
[17:51] <hallam> yes
[17:51] <rjharrison> Success?
[17:51] <rjharrison> I know you found it
[17:51] <hallam> didn't really get all the data we wanted
[17:51] <rjharrison> Were you doing any star tracking
[17:52] <hallam> it didn't go high enough for dark sky
[17:52] <rjharrison> oh dear
[17:52] <rjharrison> How high
[17:52] <hallam> 19km
[17:52] <rjharrison> PL cutdown
[17:52] <rjharrison> @90km
[17:52] <hallam> yeah, saved it from the sea
[17:52] <hallam> I still think it was worth doing, and it's pretty much ready to fly again
[17:54] <jcoxon> hallam, soon?
[17:54] <rjharrison> Me too I'm keen to get up
[17:56] <hallam> jcoxon: probably not until after my exams
[17:56] <hallam> i.e. early May
[17:56] <hallam> sorry
[17:56] <jcoxon> :-)
[17:56] <hallam> I'm not back in Cambridge until Apr 14th and then I have a week before exams start
[17:57] <jcoxon> thats quite tight!
[17:57] <hallam> well I'm studying here too
[17:58] <jcoxon> oh okay, good good :-)
[17:58] <hallam> but I don't think it would be a good idea to try to fit a star tracker launch in between
[17:58] <hallam> brb
[17:58] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, aLeXBrEtOn, gps module is here http://alienproject.wordpress.com/ : D
[17:58] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, hmm, why aren't the 'thumbnails' clickable?
[17:59] <aLeXBrEtOn> did we really need a picture of a god damn package?
[17:59] <aLeXBrEtOn> a white envelope?
[17:59] <sbasuita> ah fixed
[17:59] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, ofc
[17:59] <sbasuita> ; P
[17:59] <aLeXBrEtOn> sbasuita...photographic overkill...
[17:59] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, refresh for clickable pics
[18:00] <sbasuita> ARGH
[18:00] <sbasuita> why are they thumbnails when clicked!?!?!
[18:00] <aLeXBrEtOn> sbasuita, you phail
[18:00] <DanielRichman> Has anyone hear launched an arduino based flight-computer?
[18:02] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, i'm fixing it
[18:03] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, incorrect: you're failing to fix it. save what you've done and let me.
[18:03] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, avr based yes
[18:03] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, ok, it's mildly ok. now sort it out whilst i do my homework....
[18:03] <jcoxon> i'm not sure if anyone has used the arduno 'code'
[18:03] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, nah, its the arduino library I'm pissed off at.
[18:03] <DanielRichman> it's making me want to cry
[18:04] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, in fact
[18:04] <jcoxon> haha
[18:04] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, it's fine
[18:04] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, just leave it now
[18:04] <jcoxon> what you trying to make work?
[18:04] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, you can't really call it 'code'
[18:04] <sbasuita> jcoxon, wordpress
[18:04] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, why don't you just use plain avr then?
[18:04] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, not sure if I should abandon ship and use the avr-gcc includes/headers and just keep the arduino hardware or attempt to fix the library
[18:04] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, yeah
[18:05] <shellevil> sbasuita: should have been an unenveloping video.
[18:05] <edmoore> DanielRichman: abandon ship
[18:05] <edmoore> which in this case means 'see the light'
[18:05] <DanielRichman> edmoore, I like that idea
[18:05] <DanielRichman> rm -Rf arduino
[18:05] <DanielRichman> sorted.
[18:05] <sbasuita> shellevil, what, me looking for my fake swiss army knife, before giving up and resorting to keys?
[18:05] Action: shellevil has knife on keyring. Damn handy.
[18:07] <shellevil> http://www.agrussell.com/product.asp?pn=RUShhhP6TI&bhcd2=1238519126
[18:07] <sbasuita> shellevil, ooh nice
[18:08] <sbasuita> but probably not a good idea in the UK with all the knife crime scares
[18:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> Leatherman these days
[18:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> nothing beats pliers ;-)
[18:09] <aLeXBrEtOn> pliers+duct tape make up my toolkit
[18:09] <shellevil> As originally intended in the legislation debated in parliament - a locking penknife made for the intent of safety - would have been OK.
[18:09] <shellevil> Ass-hatted judges have interpreted this otherwise though.
[18:10] <hallam> I thought those were wigs
[18:10] <sbasuita> hehe
[18:10] <shellevil> The theory they used was that knives could be made that were actually fixed bladed, with a minimal folding mechanism, and called 'folding' knives - though they would normally be carried unfolded.
[18:11] <shellevil> To get round the limit on blade sizes on unfolding knives.
[18:11] <aLeXBrEtOn> yeah locking knives like Smith and Wesson
[18:11] <aLeXBrEtOn> switchblades, no?
[18:11] <shellevil> No
[18:11] <edmoore> right all, time to dash home
[18:11] <shellevil> those are seperately banned I think
[18:11] <edmoore> see you all later, have a good evening
[18:11] <shellevil> wave
[18:11] <shellevil> have a good trip
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[18:12] <Hiena> ' evening!
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[18:12] <shellevil> locking knives like a locking knife that uses a screw to lock, and takes 10 min to 'open' - and is in practice always carried open, but could be in principle folded.
[18:13] <shellevil> To take advantage of the allowance for a folding bladed knifes greater allowed length.
[18:13] <shellevil> It's a silly law - and I'm really unsure that that aspect does anything at all for knife crime.
[18:14] <Hiena> Well, here has a 8 cm limit for wearing, and no limit for the carrying.
[18:15] <shellevil> check the maximum permissbale field
[18:15] <shellevil> oops
[18:15] <Hiena> Thought, nobody complained the matchete in my backpack, yet.
[18:15] Action: shellevil has occasionally pondered the manufacture of composite diaklaves.
[18:16] <shellevil> CF 2.5m pole or so, foam core, maybe a thin layer of fibreglass, then 0.5mm stainless foil.
[18:16] <shellevil> alas, I haven't found a source for power metals.
[18:25] <Hiena> hmmm...Okay, i'm getting feed up with the uni's stupidity. How much yould me cost doing an experiment during the next HAB launch?
[18:26] <jcoxon> Hiena, what sort of weight?
[18:27] Action: shellevil wonders at a canned balloon + helium in a box for ashes scatterings.
[18:28] <Hiena> Dunno, about 20 or 30 gramm.
[18:28] <jcoxon> whats it doing?
[18:28] <jcoxon> i'm sure we could HAB launch something for you
[18:30] <Hiena> Basically two 1meter long carbon pole with an ultrasonic transmitter and receiver on the ends of the pole and a small circuit measuring the time delay betwen the transmission and the reception.
[18:30] <Hiena> I need an exact datas for the speed of the sound over 15 km.
[18:31] <sbasuita> Hiena, sounds cool
[18:32] <jcoxon> i'm sure something can be arranged
[18:32] <hallam> anyone used the Icom IC-R100?
[18:32] <hallam> I know it doesn't do single sideband, but there's one going free
[18:34] <Hiena> It would be better if the measurement could be done with two balloon. That would be given better results, due the bigger distance and the lack of the coupled resonance.
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[18:35] <sbasuita> Hiena, but then you'd run into trouble getting an accurate distance between the balloons...
[18:35] <hallam> you could get a GPS distance to within 10m or so
[18:35] <sbasuita> hallam, is that accurate enough?
[18:35] <hallam> don't know, ask Hiena
[18:35] <hallam> but dual balloons would be a much trickier operation
[18:35] <sbasuita> ; )
[18:36] <hallam> I guess you could tie them together until 15km, when you cut the cord and let them drift relatively slowly apart
[18:36] <sbasuita> =/ I would go for the original idea: just use super long rods
[18:37] <shellevil> differential GPS if the balloons are close would easily give +-0.1m
[18:37] <Hiena> If both balloon has GPS telemetry and the distance is around 100m. Also the relative precision of two gps is same. If both started at the same point that would results an constant, and from that point the relative distance estimation would be under 10 cm.
[18:37] <hallam> Hiena: that's "poor man's DGPS", and it doesn't work
[18:38] <shellevil> It does - somewhat
[18:38] <shellevil> it relies on lots though
[18:38] <hallam> not to 10cm
[18:38] <shellevil> and isn't always much better
[18:38] <hallam> unfortunately commercial DGPS equipment is quite expensive, and our homebrew version isn't ready yet (gimme a couple months)
[18:38] <Hiena> Why? I read a paper making control loop for the autopilot with three GPS board.
[18:39] <shellevil> Two recievers next to each other might have +-1m error, but 1000km away might have +-4m relative
[18:39] <Hiena> It worked fine for a 4 meter modell.
[18:41] <hallam> Hiena: which GPS receivers were they using?
[18:41] <hallam> the principle definitely works but AFAIK you need very special receivers
[18:43] <Hiena> hallam, i dunno, i read a paper about one and half years ago, and i was much more interested to the maths than the specs.
[18:44] <shellevil> if one has a dgps output, then it's a doddle
[18:45] <shellevil> or similarly, if you do the position extrapolation yourself, and just read the carrier info from the gpss through some non-NMEA format. (though less of a doddle)
[18:45] <hallam> but very few of the nice tiny modules give carrier info
[18:45] <shellevil> Fun can also be had with switchable antennas.
[18:45] <shellevil> yeah.
[18:45] <hallam> anyway realistically I'd suggest that if you want it launched soon (couple of weeks rather than several months) you should try to make it work with a rigidly mounted thing on a single balloon
[18:46] <shellevil> what's wrong with vertical?
[18:46] <shellevil> a string
[18:46] <shellevil> Also, a couple of mics, a large concrete parabola on the ground, and a few sticks of dynamite at the focus.
[18:48] <shellevil> or even - if you want it straight - inflated layflat tubing.
[18:48] <shellevil> For bonus points, inflate with helium.
[18:52] <Hiena> shellevil, lets stick to the non-explosive version.
[18:54] <Hiena> Ok. I'll ask the university guys, and tell them the possibilities. Maybe, they could find an interested student for this project.
[18:56] <jcoxon> Hiena, but i think if you need we can launch something like it
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[19:01] <Hiena> I tells you, how it works. I have a plenty of jobs to do, and this is somewhere end of the to do list. But, because i spend usually hours in my awake time supporting the university UAV project, i'll ask them for a support, and they will be write this out as a joint research project for free credit and hire some student to design and build it.
[19:04] <jcoxon> fair enough
[19:07] <Hiena> If you launch it, and we gain valuable data, everybody wins. You can mark it as a university joint experiment, which looks good on the newspapers, the student gains free credit and some "pro smell", the guys at the university will scratch another joint experiment which is good when they begs for money at the board, and i could settle yet another argument. ;)
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[19:23] <hallam> hi RocketBoy
[19:24] <jcoxon> Hiena, hehe
[19:28] <shellevil> Is there a reason you need the speed of sound - or just because?
[19:32] <Hiena> Well, i still have a slow-speed spaceship theory and i really hates when i ask 10 professional fluid dynamics researcher about it all of them says "I dunno..."
[19:33] <shellevil> You're not one of those 'fly to orbit' nutters?
[19:33] <shellevil> :)
[19:34] <shellevil> Rockets are what you want!
[19:34] <Hiena> Nope. I hates the rockets badly.
[19:34] <shellevil> Wings seem to add complexity and weight for a number of reasons.
[19:35] <Hiena> And i'm fly over the orbit and back in a piece.
[19:35] <shellevil> First issue seems to be that even assuming you fly out to 150Km, how do you accellerate to mach 15 or so.
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[19:35] Action: shellevil hates it when he does that
[19:36] <shellevil> Though I'm not sure exactly what it is - I'm 90% sure I diddn't hit the little X.
[19:37] <Hiena> Wrong. Until you thinks about rockets the wings are bad. But if you thinks yomething which could fly aerodinamically high as possible and jump to orbit much more usefull things.
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[19:38] Nick change: Bluenarf -> EI5GTB
[19:39] <Hiena> In the space enviroment doesn't matter how much wing you have. Also doesn't matter if you brakes at the reentry before reaching the atmosphere, or slow down on the skipping stone style.
[19:39] <EI5GTB> hi guys, long time no chat
[19:41] <Hiena> Nowdays, every spacehip is about go up fast, and coming down fast, which is good for a ballistic warhead, but not so good for a manned vehicle.
[19:41] <hallam> hi EI5GTB
[19:41] <rjharrison> Any one have access to he CUSF tx data that will be used on Thursday?
[19:41] <rjharrison> hi EI5GTB
[19:41] <Hiena> Hiya EI5GTB !
[19:42] <hallam> rjharrison: tx data? do you mean the downlink telemetry specs?
[19:42] <rjharrison> yep
[19:42] <hallam> 434.650MHz 7-N-1 RTTY
[19:42] <hallam> 50 baud
[19:42] <rjharrison> The exact telemetry string would be good
[19:42] <jcoxon> i think it ukhas standard
[19:42] <hallam> $$Badger, ticks, lat, lon, alt, blah
[19:42] <jcoxon> no spaces
[19:42] <hallam> oh, sorry
[19:43] <rjharrison> ok cool
[19:43] <jcoxon> is it badger?
[19:43] <hallam> yes
[19:43] <rjharrison> $$Badger,6930,11:34:32,3,52.1354,0.134977,7187.78,8,0
[19:43] <Hiena> The next one should be Mushroom.
[19:43] <hallam> it is
[19:44] <hallam> rjharrison: right, I forgot about the GPS time
[19:44] <hallam> but I don't think that 3, is in the current string
[19:44] <rjharrison> ok
[19:44] <hallam> $$Badger,6659,08:58:21,51.7609,0.353361,10295.2,2,10,0,0,0,0,53.2
[19:44] <hallam> that was from nova 10
[19:44] <rjharrison> Cool
[19:57] Action: EI5GTB bought a van http://paulsnet.org/van
[20:02] <hallam> nice - needs a roof-mount az/el rotator
[20:04] <RocketBoy> so is there a NOVA launch planned thurs?
[20:05] <hallam> Yes, tentatively
[20:05] <hallam> Have to confirm helium access
[20:06] <RocketBoy> oooo - anything special?
[20:06] <RocketBoy> (not that they all are)
[20:06] <hallam> mainly sponsor shots I think
[20:06] <sbasuita> What sort of time would you guys launch?
[20:06] <hallam> may also try dropping an action man with a parachute
[20:06] <hallam> "morning"
[20:07] <aLeXBrEtOn> hallam, did you say you can confirm helium for us?
[20:08] <hallam> working on it now
[20:08] <hallam> it's almost certainly going to be yes
[20:08] <hallam> the rest of the team has okayed it, I just have to check with BOC
[20:09] <aLeXBrEtOn> excellent
[20:09] <aLeXBrEtOn> thanks again =)
[20:09] <hallam> you might have to add BOC to your list of sponsors
[20:09] <hallam> np
[20:09] <sbasuita> hallam, boc?
[20:10] <hallam> british oxygen company
[20:11] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, will you go to the launch?
[20:14] <RocketBoy> well if its OK I may do - I'm f
[20:14] <RocketBoy> ree
[20:14] <jcoxon> oh okay
[20:14] <RocketBoy> as of today
[20:15] <jcoxon> was looking to set up another listener station
[20:15] <RocketBoy> forever
[20:15] <jcoxon> could you do it in the field?
[20:15] <jcoxon> oh?
[20:15] <RocketBoy> ah well - I may just listen then
[20:15] <jcoxon> listener can be in the field
[20:15] <jcoxon> :-)
[20:16] <RocketBoy> sure - what do I need - Pc + radio + wifi
[20:16] <jcoxon> radio + pc + internet - in what ever form
[20:17] <RocketBoy> do I need fldigi
[20:17] <jcoxon> yup
[20:18] <jcoxon> did you get my email today about setting up listener stations?
[20:18] <jcoxon> oh as you are in the field i might make a few adjustments to the code so it doesn't get too upset if you lose internet
[20:19] <hallam> RocketBoy: retired?
[20:21] <RocketBoy> hallam: yes could be (again) - i.e. the contract has ended
[20:21] <RocketBoy> jcoxon: nope no email 2day - that last was late last night
[20:21] <jcoxon> http://groups.google.com/group/atlantic_halo/browse_thread/thread/9ab8e433de22da45
[20:23] <hallam> RocketBoy: congratulations
[20:25] <RocketBoy> hallam: I guess - not too sure about it at the mo - but lots of time for balloons and rockets - yea
[20:27] <hallam> time is valuable
[20:28] <RocketBoy> yea! the Rockmite works
[20:29] <RocketBoy> enough output to warm a resistor
[20:38] <hallam> nice!
[20:39] <RocketBoy> a bit of a difference from 10mW
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[20:49] <Hiena> Bleh...Never ever try to make a database for an aerospace research team. I have 14 table and i'm covered only the members registration, the measurement unit and the measurement logging...
[20:50] <Hiena> Not to mention, it will be 22 table, if it will be converted to two language system.
[20:57] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, that sounds great - about hte Rockmite
[21:01] <natrium42> RocketBoy, so you can receive the signal on your radio?
[21:04] <jcoxon> natrium42, oooo can you try out the new dlclient code
[21:04] <jcoxon> oh actually i'll bbl, no worries
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[21:06] <edmoore> home
[21:06] <edmoore> good evening all
[21:06] <natrium42> hi edmoore
[21:10] <edmoore> hi natrium42
[21:10] <edmoore> all well?
[21:10] <natrium42> yep
[21:10] <natrium42> how are you?
[21:10] <sbasuita> hey natrium42
[21:10] <sbasuita> your gps arrived
[21:10] <sbasuita> once again, thanks a tonne
[21:11] <natrium42> cool, sure thing
[21:11] <edmoore> not bad thanks natrium42
[21:11] <sbasuita> natrium42, just one question: how do we know which wire corresponds to what pin on the ribbon cable?
[21:11] <natrium42> sbasuita, not sure i remember what the pinout of the cable is
[21:11] <sbasuita> natrium42, =/
[21:11] <natrium42> might need to probe the header
[21:12] <sbasuita> natrium42, what do you mean by that?
[21:12] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, we stick metal bits in it
[21:12] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, ahem
[21:12] <DanielRichman> find which pin corresponds to which wire by trial and error
[21:12] <natrium42> well, there is a pinout in the lassen iq datasheet
[21:12] <sbasuita> natrium42, thing is, the pins are covered by the cable ending
[21:12] <sbasuita> natrium42, is that removable?
[21:12] <sbasuita> natrium42, did you attach the antenna and cable yourself?
[21:12] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, calm it
[21:12] <natrium42> you can just insert a wire into the header
[21:12] <DanielRichman> I've got plenty of male pinheaders
[21:13] <sbasuita> What is the header?
[21:13] <natrium42> and check each of the pins that way
[21:13] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, sssh
[21:13] <DanielRichman> it will be fine
[21:13] <natrium42> oh, it comes off, it's a 1.27 mm pitch header
[21:13] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, pffft
[21:13] <natrium42> XD
[21:13] <sbasuita> natrium42, also, how sensitive is it actually to static?
[21:13] <natrium42> if you want guaranteed reliability, you might even want to get rid of the header and solder the wires to the pins
[21:14] <sbasuita> natrium42, bit worried about the static-free bag it came in
[21:14] <natrium42> using heatshrink tubing as protection
[21:14] <RocketBoy> natruim42: yep tis working - morse is fine - rtty and MFSK need to be aduisted to get the right shifts
[21:14] <natrium42> sbasuita, i don't think it's very sensitive... i just bough hundreds of anti-static bags on ebay :)
[21:14] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, when I built my computer, I attached anti static strip to radiator. later discovered that the patch of the radiator was oxided-over and didn't actually conduct
[21:14] <DanielRichman> it memtested fine ;D
[21:15] <natrium42> sbasuita, also make sure that you test it outside -- lassen iq does not usually work inside the house
[21:15] <DanielRichman> natrium42, can we dangle the aerial out of a window?
[21:15] <edmoore> this channel has been properly defibrulated of late
[21:15] <sbasuita> natrium42, ah right, so it's not a manufacturer's thing?
[21:16] <natrium42> DanielRichman, that might work
[21:16] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, the aerial is very short
[21:16] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, that is
[21:16] <natrium42> or if you put it right up to window
[21:16] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, the line to it
[21:16] <natrium42> you might want to test it using a usb-to-serial thingy
[21:16] <natrium42> and a computer
[21:16] <DanielRichman> natrium42, will probably just wire it to the arduino
[21:17] Action: sbasuita needs to stock up on old-school computer stuff, like usb-to-serial cables
[21:17] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, look at FTDI chips
[21:17] <natrium42> those thingys are useful :)
[21:18] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, http://www.ftdichip.com/
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[21:18] <sbasuita> you getting DNS errors?
[21:18] <DanielRichman> that website loads fine, thx
[21:18] <natrium42> you can also get a usb-to-serial from local computer shop and hack it to do logic level UART
[21:18] <sbasuita> : (
[21:18] Action: natrium42 has done it once
[21:18] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, paste me ip addy?
[21:19] <DanielRichman> natrium42, sounds like a pain, or perhaps fun. not sure which ;)
[21:19] <DanielRichman> www.ftdichip.com has address 212.227.193.68
[21:19] <DanielRichman> although `host` is hanging on the MX record
[21:19] <sbasuita> http://212.227.193.68/ is 404
[21:19] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, must be vhosts
[21:19] <DanielRichman> ~$ host www.ftdichip.com
[21:19] <DanielRichman> www.ftdichip.com has address 212.227.193.68
[21:19] <DanielRichman> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
[21:20] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, use dig ftw
[21:20] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, 68.193.227.212.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer kundenserver.de.
[21:20] <DanielRichman> its a shared box
[21:20] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, !
[21:20] <sbasuita> screw it
[21:20] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, add a line to /etc/hosts
[21:20] Action: sbasuita goes back to writing a so-called scientific paper at GCSE level (watered down beyond belief, no actual scientific value) :P
[21:21] <natrium42> RocketBoy, any idea how it will be affected by cold yet?
[21:22] <RocketBoy> na - thats a job 4 tomorrow
[21:23] <natrium42> :)
[21:23] <natrium42> do you think it's possible to replace their oscillator if necessary?
[21:26] <shellevil> Hiena: : sure. (been to sleep for a bit) Problem seems to be that 150Km and mach 1 or so doesn't seem a very useful place to be, and going > mach 1 raises lots of heating and drag issues deeper down, especially much deeper down
[21:26] <RocketBoy> well its all crystals - except the varicap
[21:26] <hallam> ftdichip.com loads fine for me
[21:26] <sbasuita> hallam, hmm... working now
[21:27] <RocketBoy> anyway the idea is for the pic to monitor the output frequecy and do a sort of pll
[21:27] <sbasuita> hallam, probably just my "home hub" having another spack
[21:27] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, netgear > home hub
[21:27] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, obviously
[21:27] <shellevil> Hiena: the 'jump' to orbit is 90% of the problem in other words - and has to happen at more or less the same accelleration if you want to accellerate out of the atmosphere, rather than rubbing along it losing energy and gaining heat all the way.
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[21:31] <Hiena> shellevil, the total dissipated heat is same on the steep and the slow reentry. The differenties is the time. If you makes a steep reentry you have no time to dissipate the heat. That means the peak of the temperature will be high.
[21:33] <Hiena> If you touch the atmosphere and skip back to the less dense altitude, possible to radiate the heat and loose some speed.
[21:35] <shellevil> yes - skip bomber - like.
[21:35] <shellevil> Hiena: hangon - are yyou talking of reentry?
[21:35] <shellevil> Hiena: also - ablation works well - and has since the 60s.
[21:35] <Hiena> And here come the another problem: The lifting capacity of the engines and the fuel capasity limits the reentry weights. That means you have no surface to radiate the heat. And also this limits your fuel at the reentry.
[21:36] <Hiena> The ablation unnecessary if you could keeps the reentry speed low.
[21:36] <shellevil> right - and you can't. You might be able to keep the heat flux low, or the heat flux over time rather.
[21:37] <shellevil> the shuttle is an example of a moderately lifting reentry.
[21:37] <shellevil> well - can''t in that can't slow down before you enter the air without using masses of fuel.
[21:38] <shellevil> And if you do, then you're limited by hypersonic L/Ds, which typically aren't great.
[21:39] <Hiena> For an average fixed wing airplane you could take off about 10 times weight of it's engines thrust. And until 30km you have not to go even supersonic.
[21:39] <hallam> yo sbasuita, DanielRichman, aLeXBrEtOn - you can have helium, but I need an email address to give the BOC guy (he wants to check you are "versed in the hazards of high pressure inert gases"
[21:39] <hallam> )
[21:39] <sbasuita> hallam, simrunbasuita@googlemail.com
[21:39] <aLeXBrEtOn> erm
[21:39] <sbasuita> hallam, anything else?
[21:39] <Hiena> The most rockets use the 2/3th of its fuel on the first 30 km.
[21:40] <shellevil> Right. And you still have the wings, and all their associated weight - and how does 30Km and mach 1 help you? It's only a net win if the rest of the structure can be lighter. FUEL IS CHEAP.
[21:40] <shellevil> The shuttle takes about a billion to launch. Under a million of that is (liquid) fuel.
[21:41] <Hiena> The weight of the wings non linear with it's wolume and surface.
[21:41] <sbasuita> hallam, I feel the need to thank you again for all the help you've given with planning, a place to launch, and now helium :)
[21:41] <Hiena> You could use the as internal tank and surface for the heat radiation.
[21:41] <shellevil> Hiena: Sure. Many smart people seem to have come to the conclusion that when you optimise the size of the wings, it goes to 0.
[21:44] <shellevil> Hiena: come up with a way to make it work, and cool. In principle, a stage 0 that gets you to 30Km and mach 1 has most of the advantages of the above. For example, a number of HTOL concepts, or even just another stage. SSTO is _HARD_ - and adding wings doesn't seem to make it easier.
[21:44] <Hiena> shellevil, sorry, but my english is limited to explain it, and too late to dig up my all calculations and research papers about to this topic.
[21:45] <hallam> sbasuita: you're welcome, I hope the payload-building goes well
[21:46] <sbasuita> hallam, will the BOC guy be emailing me?
[21:46] <Hiena> Thrust me. Possible to reach and return from orbit with a sinngle stage with a moderate speed.
[21:49] <Hiena> The only question is the used materials, the technology, and the size.
[21:49] <hallam> sbasuita: probably, I cced you on the email to him
[21:50] <hallam> just say something sensible about having read about how to safely operate gas cylinders
[21:50] <sbasuita> hallam, ko
[21:50] <sbasuita> ok*
[21:51] <Hiena> If you want to see a working example, look for the Spaceship One. Just try to calculate a rocket same amount of fuel and structural weight as the White Knight and the Spaceship One together. It would never reach the 4km mark.
[21:58] <shellevil> Hiena: sure - that's _very_ different environment though. And I don't have an argument with two stages being of use. Plus, I'm of the minimise cost school. an _enormous_ amount of harm has been done by the 'waste anything but mass' school of design.
[21:59] <shellevil> sorry - also - don't have time to do this now - more important and much more unfun stuff to do :(
[21:59] <Hiena> Yeah. I have to sleep too. ;)
[21:59] <sbasuita> natrium42, an I right in thinking that the GPS hardware you sent isn't actually so sensitive to static that we need to worry about it more than any other component (such as our arduino, or ntx2)?
[22:00] <hallam> sbasuita: that's right, pretty much avoid sliding on car seats, rubbing balloons in your hair, Van de Graaf generators etc, and you'll be ok
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[22:03] <natrium42> yeah, what hallam says :)
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[22:11] <rjharrison> boo natrium42
[22:15] <hallam> edmoore: ping?
[22:15] <edmoore> hi
[22:16] <hallam> do you remember the model number of the 70cm Yaesu?
[22:16] <hallam> the one we have that's like Steve's
[22:16] <edmoore> ft-790 iirc
[22:16] <hallam> thanks
[22:17] <hallam> good luck tomorrow
[22:17] <edmoore> thanks
[22:17] <jcoxon> oh edmoore i've worked out how to do you azimuth etc
[22:17] <edmoore> uhuh?
[22:18] <jcoxon> basically now the server has a page with the last pos on it
[22:18] <jcoxon> http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/lastpos.php
[22:18] <edmoore> ok cool
[22:18] <edmoore> so that solves it
[22:18] <jcoxon> so i'll get the DL Client to check this and use this to work it out
[22:19] <edmoore> sats are pretty cool. Might try working some
[22:19] <edmoore> sorry random
[22:20] <jcoxon> what was teh final decision on launching edmoore ?
[22:20] <edmoore> probably middayish thurs
[22:20] <jcoxon> okay, thanks
[22:28] <jcoxon> bbiab
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[22:30] <jcoxon> okay the DLClient can cope with losing internet connection
[22:36] <edmoore> how does one do that?
[22:37] <jcoxon> of just put try and except for the upload function
[22:37] <jcoxon> so it doesn't through a fit when it can't connect and gets on with looping round again
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[22:43] <sbasuita> jcoxon, perhaps it should note if a line of the log failed to send, and when connection is regained send any unsent lines?
[22:44] <jcoxon> good idea
[22:45] <jcoxon> that said after say an hour of lost connection going to be a flood of sentences
[22:45] <jcoxon> perhaps the previous 5 strings
[22:45] <jcoxon> (its still logging on hte local machine for later review)
[22:48] <rjharrison> http://maps.google.com/?q=http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/listeners.kml&t=p
[22:49] <rjharrison> Here they are showing the colours
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[23:04] <jcoxon> ping natrium42
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[23:52] Nick change: Tigga_Lab -> Strange_lab
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[23:56] <Laurenceb> hello
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[00:00] --- Wed Apr 1 2009